7/20/2012 LD: "The Whys and Hows of Reprints"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Latest Developments, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Since you have really been pushing creatures I would love reprints of ridiculous creatures of the past within the same environment e.g. Tradewind Rider, Flametongue Kavu, Morphling, 'goyf (kidding!), and Disciple of the Vault. It would be interesting if, as you covered in the article, a different environment and a huge shift in Magic as a game would make them play out differently.
Well, goyf is coming back. There was an article with mark Rosewater a while back where he talks about modern and that they plan on reprinting the modern staples to prevent the format becoming like legacy where newer players just can not play the format with out dropping a billion dollars on the Dual lands.

I would love for the duals to be reprinted in someformat to allow players to play legacy. I have a lot of great legacy cards (fow, StP, slivers, counterspells) But don't own the duals so I feel like I am being left out of a huge chuck of magic.

So, Shock lands will be back in Return to ravnica, and I expect goyf to show up there as well, as well as Birds of paradise.

My real question is what makes a card "too powerful" to be reprinted. For example, the best card ever printed, Counterspell. What made you say that 2 Blue mana to counter a spell with no restrictions, was too powerful. Too powerful that you now only print 2 CMC counters with some drawback, (Corrupted Resolve, Deprive, Essence Scatter, Negate, Remand). And what was it that made 3 CMC to cheap for Destroy Target Land, (Stone Rain, Rain of Tears, Molten Rain, Cryoclasm)
There are examples and examples now, so far on these threads, of arguments dismissing your use of "New World Order." At this point, I think you either really love this too much to let it go; are being told to use it publically; ignore or don't know about (still!) the ridiculous connotations in which the phrase was not only coined but for which it was adopted on a sociopolitical level (in which it totally doesn't befit your usage); or think that OTHERS should be using this horribly kitsch-y phrase adopted for your internal design philosophy, which I find silly because typically internal coporate terms tend to be a lot less "kitsch" and a lot more "functional." I think the true answer is someone a mixture of some or most of these. That, and that there's something incredibly egoistic about the "world" aspect when you're applying this to a simple card game, and not even the most popular one at that.

But please ... stop. Keep it to yourself. Call it the long-term re-design philosophy or something (which is what it is -- LTRP, or "loterp," would even work out) but STOP ... just stop ... calling it "new world order."
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
Well, goyf is coming back. There was an article with mark Rosewater a while back where he talks about modern and that they plan on reprinting the modern staples to prevent the format becoming like legacy where newer players just can not play the format with out dropping a billion dollars on the Dual lands.



They can print new product that makes these cards more available, and thus legal for the sets that originally included them and those formats. This doesn't mean they are going to be printed for Standard. Ever. This includes the Alpha duals, the Power Nine, or even the secondary "Power" cards like Grim Monolith and the like that fuel Legacy and Vintage. They already made sol Ring available for the formats that could use them, but this was limited to the resounding success of new EDH-focused product ("Commander"). Note they will be printing the "Arsenal" for this format which is designed specifically to reprint "staples" for the format.
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
I like these "behind the scenes" articles and hope to see more of them.

I would have prefered you bring back Goblin Warchief and Merfolk Sovereign or Merrow Reejery (instead of Master) in M13.

I also would have liked you to discuss reprints that are NOT good the second time around, too.  For example, back when Torment released, Nantuko Shade was celebrated as one of the best black creatures around and was certainly the best Shade ever printed.  It even saw a little Vintage play at the time, because it could slide in under counter magic and pose a serious threat as the game progressed.  As a reprint, it was ignored, seeing no serious play in any constructed format, and it wasn't even that special in draft.  A similar case could be made for Goblin Grenade and several other cards.

These cards may have been cast in new light, but they were certainly nowhere near exciting the second time around.  It seems to me they were made purposefully LESS exciting.  I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this.
 Oh man, his statement that "I am sure you can imagine what direction MutilateFarseek, and Arbor Elf are pointing you in" is as close to confirming shock land reprints as I need. I can't see why else he would group three cards that all care about different basic land types together.
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 Oh man, his statement that "I am sure you can imagine what direction MutilateFarseek, and Arbor Elf are pointing you in" is as close to confirming shock land reprints as I need. I can't see why else he would group three cards that all care about different basic land types together.



A NEW cycle of lands with 2 basic land types =D
That would be the biggest trolling ever.

My real question is what makes a card "too powerful" to be reprinted. For example, the best card ever printed, Counterspell. What made you say that 2 Blue mana to counter a spell with no restrictions, was too powerful. Too powerful that you now only print 2 CMC counters with some drawback, (Corrupted Resolve Deprive, Essence ScatterNegateRemand). And what was it that made 3 CMC to cheap for Destroy Target Land, (Stone RainRain of TearsMolten Rain,Cryoclasm)

 

By looking at decklists and metagames. Wizards pushes us to play with bigger, higher-costing creatures and spells, and in order to do that, they have to nerf the things that prey on that. 
"Too powerful to reprint" is largely irrelevant when Duel Decks, FTV, Commander, Planechase, Archenemy, etc. are involved.
Well, there are a 
ton of factors that inform our process, but first I want to start with one that certainly does not: "What the lead designer or developer thinks is cool for whatever reason."

You absolutely, positively, cannot ever start just picking things you think are neat or boss or baller and go putting them into sets all willy-nilly. This is a bad, bad, bad way to do business.


Btw, I was remembered of something I read about M12's development team:

www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.a...

His effect on the set was mostly felt on a card-by-card basis, and some of my favorite specific inclusions in the set are his. Thran Golem was his hilarious contribution to the set's mild Aura subtheme, and several cards from his "list of cards I don't own enough of for my Commander decks" ended up in the file as well.



How do those 2 match? 
Well, goyf is coming back. There was an article with mark Rosewater a while back where he talks about modern and that they plan on reprinting the modern staples to prevent the format becoming like legacy where newer players just can not play the format with out dropping a billion dollars on the Dual lands.

They can print new product that makes these cards more available, and thus legal for the sets that originally included them and those formats. This doesn't mean they are going to be printed for Standard. Ever. This includes the Alpha duals, the Power Nine, or even the secondary "Power" cards like Grim Monolith and the like that fuel Legacy and Vintage. They already made sol Ring available for the formats that could use them, but this was limited to the resounding success of new EDH-focused product ("Commander"). Note they will be printing the "Arsenal" for this format which is designed specifically to reprint "staples" for the format.

Actually, all of the cards you mentioned (except Sol Ring, which as you said they did reprint) are on the Reserved List and so can't be reprinted in any product, Standard-legal or not.

Level 1 Judge as of 09/26/2013

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"Ability words are flavor text for Melvins." -- Fallingman

Well, goyf is coming back. There was an article with mark Rosewater a while back where he talks about modern and that they plan on reprinting the modern staples to prevent the format becoming like legacy where newer players just can not play the format with out dropping a billion dollars on the Dual lands.

They can print new product that makes these cards more available, and thus legal for the sets that originally included them and those formats. This doesn't mean they are going to be printed for Standard. Ever. This includes the Alpha duals, the Power Nine, or even the secondary "Power" cards like Grim Monolith and the like that fuel Legacy and Vintage. They already made sol Ring available for the formats that could use them, but this was limited to the resounding success of new EDH-focused product ("Commander"). Note they will be printing the "Arsenal" for this format which is designed specifically to reprint "staples" for the format.

Actually, all of the cards you mentioned (except Sol Ring, which as you said they did reprint) are on the Reserved List and so can't be reprinted in any product, Standard-legal or not.




Plus, cards printed in secondary products like Commander are NOT legal in Modern, only cards printed into Standard-legal sets would be. So basically, the opposite of what Qilong said.
Well, there are a 
ton of factors that inform our process, but first I want to start with one that certainly does not: "What the lead designer or developer thinks is cool for whatever reason."

You absolutely, positively, cannot ever start just picking things you think are neat or boss or baller and go putting them into sets all willy-nilly. This is a bad, bad, bad way to do business.



Btw, I was remembered of something I read about M12's development team:

www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.a...

His effect on the set was mostly felt on a card-by-card basis, and some of my favorite specific inclusions in the set are his. Thran Golem was his hilarious contribution to the set's mild Aura subtheme, and several cards from his "list of cards I don't own enough of for my Commander decks" ended up in the file as well.



How do those 2 match? 


Zac explained it for gilded lotus. It is both a sweet commander reprint and is aligned with cards from the blocks around it. I am not sure how Akroma's Memorial made it in, but I am glad. That one was getting way too expensive.   

The shock lands are probably getting reprinted, unless they come up with something new (which might be stupid, there's a lack of non-basics as is).

The revised list is a dumb dumb idea, at least make an exception somewhere (FTV was a great place to do it as its so limited anyway). Basically wizards is saying "The gamers, and the health of a format are less important than the few people who JUST collect the cards" and they aren't making money off of the stuff they aren't printing (WotC business decisions have been pretty bad lately, bye bye DnD! Yay delver, yay jace, yay killing a format and giving little player incentives). 

Legacy will start dying, the card pool for staple cards is limited to a few cards, and they won't last forever. Either they will find "forever" homes  or they'll be lost, or damaged, etc. Paper doesn't last forever, and WotC is saying it does. Limited printing in promo sets and other area's wouldn't even depress the price, just keep it from raising.

As for m13 reprints, a few were awesome gold (nighthawk, nocturnus, exalted, farseek [personal favorite]), a few were utter utter garbage (door to nothingness?). It feels like there are a few developers that get it and a few that just throw darts. I think a core set should really be a set that constantly gets honed with some staples (mana ramp, efficient creatures, a few nice fatties) that are found to best support the coming sets to make the most diverse and strong standard. Now it seems like half the cards work in that and half are just challenges to make a deck around (that most will fail at).

Raven Cool 
Door to Nothingness may be utter garbage in terms of playability, but as a card it's amazing. There are a large number of players (Myself included) who enjoy winning off of incredibly bad methods. I really like Door to Nothingness because it lets me do something no other card does: For the low low cost of I can knock another player out of the game. No fluff, no extra bits, just 'target player loses the game'. It was one of my favorite cards as a new player, and I'm sure there are a lot of new players today who also love it.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
please ... stop. Keep it to yourself. Call it the long-term re-design philosophy or something (which is what it is -- LTRP, or "loterp," would even work out) but STOP ... just stop ... calling it "new world order."


They can call it whatever they want. They use it because it sounds significant (it is). It's not truly controversial. Mythic rarity is more likely to disappear than this terminology.


 Oh man, his statement that "I am sure you can imagine what direction Mutilate, Farseek, and Arbor Elf are pointing you in" is as close to confirming shock land reprints as I need. I can't see why else he would group three cards that all care about different basic land types together.

 

A NEW cycle of lands with 2 basic land types =D
That would be the biggest trolling ever.


And would elicit fistpumps of satisfaction from modern players all over.


AMercy is too expensive for this format.

PCleansing is outclassed by Terminus.

The format has to be broken and full of DTutor acts for Battle of Wits to be possible. Great art, though. It's just... the worst idea for an alternate win condition; don't believe everything Mark says.

EScatter + Negate: love it, the perfect pair IMO. I would be fine if these were the counters until the end of time.

Index: meh. And yet, a downgrade is necessary for how inflluential Ponder is. But this is too far down the list.

Rewind: love it. I love 4 CMC punish counters. I used to love running PIgnorance. CCommand, however, went too far...

SoUthuun: I really hope this guy gets to shine this time around.

Unsummon: I was so hoping we got past all this Snapcaster nonsense.

I think the mono-B reprints are spectacular. I love the chances for monocolored decks to be taken seriously again. There should be benefit to running monocolored versus multicolored besides just price!

MoMutiny: Hate it. AoTreason is better 99% of the time.

VGeyser: Awesome. 

Love the references to basic duals.

Stuffy Doll: Awesome art.

Tormod's Crypt: Cantrips are more important. And the funny thing is you guys already know this. You reprinted GSeal!

Core Set Tap Lands: Best reprints in the set, and every set they appear in. 
The revised list is a dumb dumb idea, at least make an exception somewhere (FTV was a great place to do it as its so limited anyway). Basically wizards is saying "The gamers, and the health of a format are less important than the few people who JUST collect the cards" and they aren't making money off of the stuff they aren't printing (WotC business decisions have been pretty bad lately, bye bye DnD! Yay delver, yay jace, yay killing a format and giving little player incentives).


No, what they're saying is "we will keep a promise we make to our customers, no matter how misguided that promise may seem in retrospect".
blah blah metal lyrics
The revised list is a dumb dumb idea, at least make an exception somewhere (FTV was a great place to do it as its so limited anyway). Basically wizards is saying "The gamers, and the health of a format are less important than the few people who JUST collect the cards" and they aren't making money off of the stuff they aren't printing (WotC business decisions have been pretty bad lately, bye bye DnD! Yay delver, yay jace, yay killing a format and giving little player incentives).


No, what they're saying is "we will keep a promise we make to our customers, no matter how misguided that promise may seem in retrospect".



And if you read between the lines, what it seems like they're actually saying is "someone threatened to sue us over the Phyrexia vs. The Coalition Duel Decks, and our lawyers think they could win if they did". So really, you can hardly blame the current R&D for that.
Well, goyf is coming back. There was an article with mark Rosewater a while back where he talks about modern and that they plan on reprinting the modern staples to prevent the format becoming like legacy where newer players just can not play the format with out dropping a billion dollars on the Dual lands.

They can print new product that makes these cards more available, and thus legal for the sets that originally included them and those formats. This doesn't mean they are going to be printed for Standard. Ever. This includes the Alpha duals, the Power Nine, or even the secondary "Power" cards like Grim Monolith and the like that fuel Legacy and Vintage. They already made sol Ring available for the formats that could use them, but this was limited to the resounding success of new EDH-focused product ("Commander"). Note they will be printing the "Arsenal" for this format which is designed specifically to reprint "staples" for the format.

Actually, all of the cards you mentioned (except Sol Ring, which as you said they did reprint) are on the Reserved List and so can't be reprinted in any product, Standard-legal or not.



Plus, cards printed in secondary products like Commander are NOT legal in Modern, only cards printed into Standard-legal sets would be. So basically, the opposite of what Qilong said.



You may not understand what I said:

All cards printed for Duel Decks, Commander, or other ancillary products outside of normal set flow are legal in the formats that those cards were originally available in. I wrote something to this effect in the above quoted section, and I am still not wrong. New sets like From the Vault: Realms doesn't add anything to Modern save that it makes those lands already legal in Modern printed in FtV:R more ascessible. Cards printed in Commander that are already legal in Modern are now MORE available. Not once did I say (or intimate) that these sets MADE these cards legal in all other formats. I have emboldened the original statement above, which you can use to judge how close I was to saying what I am telling you now what I intended.
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
Well, there are a 
ton of factors that inform our process, but first I want to start with one that certainly does not: "What the lead designer or developer thinks is cool for whatever reason."

You absolutely, positively, cannot ever start just picking things you think are neat or boss or baller and go putting them into sets all willy-nilly. This is a bad, bad, bad way to do business.



Btw, I was remembered of something I read about M12's development team:

www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.a...

His effect on the set was mostly felt on a card-by-card basis, and some of my favorite specific inclusions in the set are his. Thran Golem was his hilarious contribution to the set's mild Aura subtheme, and several cards from his "list of cards I don't own enough of for my Commander decks" ended up in the file as well.



How do those 2 match? 



Zac explained it for gilded lotus. It is both a sweet commander reprint and is aligned with cards from the blocks around it. I am not sure how Akroma's Memorial made it in, but I am glad. That one was getting way too expensive.   




Gilded Lotus doesn't fit as well into multicolor as well as one might think, as it produces only one color. It works great as an accelerator, because it produces a lot of ONE color after the initial investment. It becomes problematic when including it in a three-color deck because it doesn't help you mana fix. Compare, say, to the multicolor functionality of Bloom Tender and hybrid cards, and the solutions in general in Shadowmoor/Eventide, much of Limited development when to solving the particular issues of manafixing. That's also the whole point of the original Signet cycle and Guild Karoos, and how key and powerful they are to Limited in RAV/GPT/DIS. Throw in a Lotus, and it only seems to be suggesting "go big" and "pay X" rather than "helps you really fix up your mana woes!"
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
please ... stop. Keep it to yourself. Call it the long-term re-design philosophy or something (which is what it is -- LTRP, or "loterp," would even work out) but STOP ... just stop ... calling it "new world order."


They can call it whatever they want. They use it because it sounds significant (it is). It's not truly controversial. Mythic rarity is more likely to disappear than this terminology.



So ... rather than engage on the particulars, you dismiss one of my arguments (terminology misplacement and conflation) out of hand, while arguing that your opinion overrides mine (you like it, I don't) rather than engage on the specifics, then level a strawman (comparing it to Mythic rarity). That's a three-fer.

"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
Qilong wrote:
Gilded Lotus doesn't fit as well into multicolor as well as one might think, as it produces only one color. It works great as an accelerator, because it produces a lot of ONE color after the initial investment. It becomes problematic when including it in a three-color deck because it doesn't help you mana fix. Compare, say, to the multicolor functionality of Bloom Tender and hybrid cards, and the solutions in general in Shadowmoor/Eventide, much of Limited development when to solving the particular issues of manafixing. That's also the whole point of the original Signet cycle and Guild Karoos, and how key and powerful they are to Limited in RAV/GPT/DIS. Throw in a Lotus, and it only seems to be suggesting "go big" and "pay X" rather than "helps you really fix up your mana woes!"



I think you are over thinking it. If a player wants to have Griselbrand, Gisela, and Avacyn in the same deck, Gilded lotus is pretty good. It accellerates to these big cards with BBBB or WWW in the casting cost. I think it is a decent inclusion at this time even if it doesn't amount to anything.

For a reprint that can be useful to new commander players, it is great too. For the Kaalia deck, it really helps if something happens to her since red fatties also can have RRR in their casting costs. Giving people with that precon an accellerant and mana fixer in M13 was nice. I haven't seen much of the red/white/blue precon, but I'd assume it applies there where green isn't available to do the work.

If WOTC really wants to hook new commander players up, they would reprint those Shadowmoor/Eventide lands. Those are so good in commander, and got expensive with the formation of modern. The combination of plains, fetid heath, swamp is almost the same has having 3 scrublands. However, that might be a little too good for when Ravnica is around. I found it odd that the casting costs of Shadowmoor/Eventide guys basically made it so my basic lands functioned as dual lands and they printed dual lands that even further expanded that. It is tough for the people using commander precons though since they can use two Eventide ones which are much more expensive than the shadowmoor ones.
Qilong wrote:
Gilded Lotus doesn't fit as well into multicolor as well as one might think, as it produces only one color. It works great as an accelerator, because it produces a lot of ONE color after the initial investment. It becomes problematic when including it in a three-color deck because it doesn't help you mana fix. Compare, say, to the multicolor functionality of Bloom Tender and hybrid cards, and the solutions in general in Shadowmoor/Eventide, much of Limited development when to solving the particular issues of manafixing. That's also the whole point of the original Signet cycle and Guild Karoos, and how key and powerful they are to Limited in RAV/GPT/DIS. Throw in a Lotus, and it only seems to be suggesting "go big" and "pay X" rather than "helps you really fix up your mana woes!"




I think you are over thinking it. If a player wants to have Griselbrand, Gisela, and Avacyn in the same deck, Gilded lotus is pretty good. It accellerates to these big cards with BBBB or WWW in the casting cost. I think it is a decent inclusion at this time even if it doesn't amount to anything.


In this way, you are correct. But that's about color-splashing. Did you play Limited during RAV? Your built design was generally towards constrained 3 color decks. But during Alara block, it could be toward constrined (and sometimes tightly costed) four color decks. Two color with a splash to a third but with a high number of CD and 1CD cards, or CDE and splash F with a tight interplay of 1CD and 1DE cards, you get little room to play with something that only provides 3 mana of ONE color. Gilded Lotus doesn't necessarily help you cast that Ink-Treader Nephilim, without leaving you 2 mana floating, in which case it's not really fixing anything.

For a reprint that can be useful to new commander players, it is great too. For the Kaalia deck, it really helps if something happens to her since red fatties also can have RRR in their casting costs. Giving people with that precon an accellerant and mana fixer in M13 was nice. I haven't seen much of the red/white/blue precon, but I'd assume it applies there where green isn't available to do the work.

If WOTC really wants to hook new commander players up, they would reprint those Shadowmoor/Eventide lands. Those are so good in commander, and got expensive with the formation of modern. The combination of plains, fetid heath, swamp is almost the same has having 3 scrublands. However, that might be a little too good for when Ravnica is around. I found it odd that the casting costs of Shadowmoor/Eventide guys basically made it so my basic lands functioned as dual lands and they printed dual lands that even further expanded that. It is tough for the people using commander precons though since they can use two Eventide ones which are much more expensive than the shadowmoor ones.



I really agree with this in regards to Commander. However, the point was disputing Zak's statement in specific regards to Return to Ravnica. If the necessary elements of drafting the set is anything like Ravnica: City of Guilds or Shadowmoor, a card like Gilded Lotus doesn't actually help that much; conversely, Bloom Tender helps a lot more in helping you drop three different colors, or letting your dual hit the off color to splash with.
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
Cards printed in M13 are obviously not for Ravnica limited formats
Cards printed in M13 are obviously not for Ravnica limited formats



I think he meant based on his assumptions of what RTR would be, Gilded Lotus doesn't fit the way Zac indicates that it does. I wouldn't expect signets to be back, and if spells have triple of one color in their casting costs, Gilded lotus could be useful. It'll be useful for ramping up to Avacyn and Griselbrand in multicolored decks if nothing else. For the next year, those two will be hanging around with Ravnica cards.
Cards printed in M13 are obviously not for Ravnica limited formats



This much is true. However, the argument also extends to what Ravnica: CoG was like when it went to Standard: Solar Flare, Solar Pox, WU control, etc. The first two were three color decks that used 3-4 mana cards without color splashes to help control the game, while the third ran smaller 2-3 mana cards to stall it. You were still prompted to play three color combinations, often in large doses, while at the same time using no-leeway costs (e.g., Ghost Council of Orzhova). Will Gilded Lotus help Standard? Yes. But it's utility in multicolor is the point: the hoops you have to jump through to enable multicolor means using less "lots of one color" mana generators, and more "lots of many color fixers:" You're still using Bloom Tender (for, example, Jund Ramp) and Signets (as smoothers).

"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
They can call it whatever they want. They use it because it sounds significant (it is). It's not truly controversial. Mythic rarity is more likely to disappear than this terminology.



So ... rather than engage on the particulars, you dismiss one of my arguments (terminology misplacement and conflation) out of hand, while arguing that your opinion overrides mine (you like it, I don't) rather than engage on the specifics, then level a strawman (comparing it to Mythic rarity). That's a three-fer.

The point is, their opinion is what matters. They think it is a good name, so they'll keep it. Add in the other quality that it doesn't affect enough players to ever seeing the light of day as an arguable topic (a topic that could possibly cause change).
They can call it whatever they want. They use it because it sounds significant (it is). It's not truly controversial. Mythic rarity is more likely to disappear than this terminology.



So ... rather than engage on the particulars, you dismiss one of my arguments (terminology misplacement and conflation) out of hand, while arguing that your opinion overrides mine (you like it, I don't) rather than engage on the specifics, then level a strawman (comparing it to Mythic rarity). That's a three-fer.



The point is, their opinion is what matters. They think it is a good name, so they'll keep it. Add in the other quality that it doesn't affect enough players to ever seeing the light of day as an arguable topic (a topic that could possibly cause change).



Hey, would you mind fixing your quotation tags? At this moment, it seems YOU are the one responding in a reasoned tone while I am being the dickish individual who is having his logical flaws pointed out. Repair, then I will respond.


"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
No, what they're saying is "we will keep a promise we make to our customers, no matter how misguided that promise may seem in retrospect".

I've never liked that reasoning. Keeping a promise purely because it's a promise is bad policy. A promise that harms all parties (like the reprint policy) should be discarded.

To illustrate why: let's say I have a child who loves peanut butter; on their tenth birthday I bake them a chocolate peanut butter cake, and they love it so much they ask to have it every year. I give my child a solemn promise that every year on their birthday I'll bake them a peanut butter chocolate cake. Five years later, they develop a severe peanut allergy. Should I continue baking them peanut butter chocolate cakes for their birthday? No!

Now, that's not to say that the reprint policy should just be ditched without ceremony--that would definitely cause a PR nightmare--but handled with respect, transparency, and a lot of forewarning, the elimination of the reprint policy would be a very good thing.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I'm not really sure the situation requires an analogy.  Especially a flawed one, since you would need to have several million children, a few hundred or thousand of whom are still counting on their peanut butter cake.


Frankly I am just furious that once again, a big heartless corporation is choosing to honor their promise over selling something to make a quick buck.  It makes me so mad I want to sleep in a park until a benevolent king comes to grant us omnicient banking regulation.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

I'm not really sure the situation requires an analogy.  Especially a flawed one, since you would need to have several million children, a few hundred or thousand of whom are still counting on their peanut butter cake.

Certainly it's flawed, but the point is that a promise isn't an end in itself. The spirit of a promise is always much more important than the letter, and the spirit of the reprint policy is "We won't tank the value of your cards to make a quick buck." They've been holding to that spirit for years even when the letter of the policy doesn't apply--witness the lack of Mana Drain or Force of Will reprints to sell packs.

Holding to the letter of a promise when doing so no longer serves the spirit is pointless, especially when it comes at a cost to the people you made the promise to. And I don't like it when companies do pointless things that make their customers worse off.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

It is a matter of opinion, but I always come up wanting to try to wrap my head around why creatures are being printed that are so powerful, that they manage to warp other formats to the point of being faster and more powerful, but sharing lots of overlap with standard. There is a complex array of factors that go into the development of metagames, but it is usually to bet on new non-creature spells being less powerful derivatives of older cards- whereas creatures are always pushing the envelope.

Standard can be a creature-filled slugfest, but when eternal formats all begin to revolve around standard critters via: best for aggro or being broken by older cards that existed to make the six and up casting cost monsters more likely to delight, amuse and occasionally crush(Serra Avatar, Phyrexian Colossus, Spirit of the Night, etc etc).

I enjoy Standard, but I enjoy competitive eternal formats for entirely different reasons that are associated with playing the game since '94. 

Now that the 1.5 and Modern are gaining popularity, so I hope it is understood that Eternal formats' are going to turn into formats where the majority of non-creature spells played were printed before Lorwyn, while the bulk of creatures are from said block or later ones.  There is nothing inherantly wrong about such a scenario, but I don't see how such a binary is desirable either. 

    I used to have a lot more faith in how eternal formats were handled until Extended got ruined by ridiculously aggressive rotations and the boredom that comes with formats that are just flashbacks of standard a year and a bit earlier. 

    At least print similarly powerful ways to answer amazingly good creatures if they are going to keep getting printed because I have never thought of designers as short-sighted until a few years ago.  I miss the old weariness of printing creatures that were ridiculously good. Idiots and children might be fooled, but there are plenty who find it every bit as miserable to lose from degenerate creatures as it is degenerate non-creature spells.

  Keep printing good cards, just knock it off with their mostly being creatures. 
It is a matter of opinion, but I always come up wanting to try to wrap my head around why creatures are being printed that are so powerful, that they manage to warp other formats to the point of being faster and more powerful, but sharing lots of overlap with standard. There is a complex array of factors that go into the development of metagames, but it is usually to bet on new non-creature spells being less powerful derivatives of older cards- whereas creatures are always pushing the envelope.



It's hard to push the envelope on Ancestral Recall. Or Swords to Plowshares. Non-creatures used to be overpowered, so it's no wonder we see less powerful versions these days. On the other hand, creatures were underpowered, so the envelope can be pushed there. 

Note however that there's almost no envelope-pushing on Llanowar Elves and Birds of Paradise. Those are still where they are. Wizards is only pushing the envelope where they believe it could use the boost. 

At least print similarly powerful ways to answer amazingly good creatures if they are going to keep getting printed because I have never thought of designers as short-sighted until a few years ago.  I miss the old weariness of printing creatures that were ridiculously good. Idiots and children might be fooled, but there are plenty who find it every bit as miserable to lose from degenerate creatures as it is degenerate non-creature spells.  

 

Not plenty enough, that's the point. There are more who like it as it is now.

Now that the 1.5 and Modern are gaining popularity, so I hope it is understood that Eternal formats' are going to turn into formats where the majority of non-creature spells played were printed before Lorwyn, while the bulk of creatures are from said block or later ones.  There is nothing inherantly wrong about such a scenario, but I don't see how such a binary is desirable either.  

[...]

  Keep printing good cards, just knock it off with their mostly being creatures. 



But what's the alternative? How can it not be binary? Right now creatures and non-creatures seem to be reasonably balanced, both seeing play. If spells are made as good as they used to be, then creatures have to be made even better than they are now. 
witness the lack of Mana Drain or Force of Will reprints to sell packs.



You realize that they don't reprint those due to power level issues right?  If they aren't going to reprint Counterspell anymore then why do you expect them to reprint Mana Drain or Force of Will when they are far stronger.  The only way that we are ever going to see those again is if they do another FTV or similar pack. 
IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)
I'm not really sure the situation requires an analogy.  Especially a flawed one, since you would need to have several million children, a few hundred or thousand of whom are still counting on their peanut butter cake.

Certainly it's flawed, but the point is that a promise isn't an end in itself. The spirit of a promise is always much more important than the letter, and the spirit of the reprint policy is "We won't tank the value of your cards to make a quick buck." They've been holding to that spirit for years even when the letter of the policy doesn't apply--witness the lack of Mana Drain or Force of Will reprints to sell packs.

Holding to the letter of a promise when doing so no longer serves the spirit is pointless, especially when it comes at a cost to the people you made the promise to. And I don't like it when companies do pointless things that make their customers worse off.




For what its worth, it is a promise that has a point even to this day. For example, if I was considering buying a Candelabra today, I can make the decision if it is 'worth it' based on my knowledge of the card and not have to worry about estimating how probable it is WOTC would print 40,000 of them for GP participation foils. The promise eliminates the major source of uncertainty in buying old cards. WOTC could ban Candelabra or a card that makes it good, but it is still an extremely rare card. That I can still count on.

I can't see how it no longer serves the spirit anymore since it is still doing exactly what it did when it was first made. This threat isn't about the reprint policy. It is pretty much set in stone and hardly worth a lot of discussion. However, I think people that feel it no longer serves a purpose should try putting themselves in the shoes of people trying to buy old cards. It would be very hard to pull the trigger when an annoucement you can't pridict could come out tomorrow that would dash the value of the card you just bought.
... It would be very hard to pull the trigger when an annoucement you can't pridict could come out tomorrow that would dash the value of the card you just bought.


Sounds like why some people get angry/feel betrayed at bannings.
Instead of a card suddenly being not useable and people being angry because they just bought it, a card suddenly becomes more available and people become angry because they just bought it.
witness the lack of Mana Drain or Force of Will reprints to sell packs.



You realize that they don't reprint those due to power level issues right?  If they aren't going to reprint Counterspell anymore then why do you expect them to reprint Mana Drain or Force of Will when they are far stronger.  The only way that we are ever going to see those again is if they do another FTV or similar pack. 



The reprint policy does not include only the Power Nine and the extended Power Twenty-or-so. It includes a large host of other cards which are there for the sole purpose of being "rare to find," collector-only value cards, as well as ante and dexterity cards (which are certainly not excluded for "power" reasons).

Explain, for example, why Sedge Troll is not useful as a reprint, when arguably more powerful Sedge Sliver exists, while also there being Hedge Troll as a color shift? We get Fortune Thief, but not Ali from Cairo? Pyramids, for crying out loud?! Legends legends? Many of these cards are there because they are from sets that are very, very old (in the first few years of Magic's existence, or the aforementioned Power Twenty-or-so (which includes the Alpha/Beta duals).

The Reserved list needs to go. You can make a more select, functional list about reprinting things, but the Reserved List should go: It serves a function only to insure the pockets of former collectors, while at the same time also making a legitimate and sanctioned format almost completely unaccessible (where only the effectively-rich may play).
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
witness the lack of Mana Drain or Force of Will reprints to sell packs.



You realize that they don't reprint those due to power level issues right?  If they aren't going to reprint Counterspell anymore then why do you expect them to reprint Mana Drain or Force of Will when they are far stronger.  The only way that we are ever going to see those again is if they do another FTV or similar pack. 



The reprint policy does not include only the Power Nine and the extended Power Twenty-or-so. It includes a large host of other cards which are there for the sole purpose of being "rare to find," collector-only value cards, as well as ante and dexterity cards (which are certainly not excluded for "power" reasons).

Explain, for example, why Sedge Troll is not useful as a reprint, when arguably more powerful Sedge Sliver exists, while also there being Hedge Troll as a color shift? We get Fortune Thief, but not Ali from Cairo? Pyramids, for crying out loud?! Legends legends? Many of these cards are there because they are from sets that are very, very old (in the first few years of Magic's existence, or the aforementioned Power Twenty-or-so (which includes the Alpha/Beta duals).

The Reserved list needs to go. You can make a more select, functional list about reprinting things, but the Reserved List should go: It serves a function only to insure the pockets of former collectors, while at the same time also making a legitimate and sanctioned format almost completely unaccessible (where only the effectively-rich may play).



I agree that the Reserved List must go if only to be able to reprint needed cards such as the dual lands.  I also understand that the reprint policy covers cards that aren't as desired as the power cards.  My arguement was not about the reserve list.  I have made my anger about it plain in forum responses to reserve list articles.

I am pointing out that the reason Mana Drain and Force of Will aren't reprinted is not because of "the spirit of the reprint policy" as zammm puts it.  It is because they are powerful cards that Wizards would not want to put in a Standard set anytime soon.  

Counterspell is another card now deemed too powerful to reprint in a base set, although it is mostly because of the fact that it obsoletes most other two cost counterspells.  If Counterspell is deemed too powerful to reprint, does it make sense to attempt to reprint a Counterspell that gives you mana on your next turn or a Counterspell that either costs 3UU or a blue card and a life? 

Also, as I said in my previous comment, we could see reprints of Mana Drain and/or Force of Will but it will most likely be in a more limited fashion (such as a FTV box) simply because they are too strong to be put out in a cheap theme deck.
IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)
Counterspell is another card now deemed too powerful to reprint in a base set, although it is mostly because of the fact that it obsoletes most other two cost counterspells.  If Counterspell is deemed too powerful to reprint, does it make sense to attempt to reprint a Counterspell that gives you mana on your next turn or a Counterspell that either costs 3UU or a blue card and a life?



Scattering Stroke, Commandeer. Certainly not equivalent, but inspired by these more powerful spells.

My point before is not to exclude your argument, but to point out that the reasoning for the Reserved List has a financial benefit to the people to whom this "promise" was made. It is such a "promise" that they do not speak of it, do not say to whom the "promise" was made, and parrot almost word-for-word the explanation each time. This has a the suggestion of a legally-binding contract. I like that almost all current management want the List gone, but there is no move to try to get the list revoked. What fuels this, especially, is Vintage. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that if they stopped sanctioning Vintage, the Reserved List would become almost useless. Banned and Restricted lists are there to make formats healthy when sanctioned, but a format that players cannot access without proxies, and even then only some tourneys allow this, makes Vintage an unhealthy format even without consideration of the decks involved. Legacy is by far more diverse, suggesting it is also far more healthy without reliance of cards on the Reserved List.

Suggestion: Abandon Vintage. Find a legal way to permit all cards on the List to be reprinted.

"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
To all those saying that keeping the reprint policy hurts both Wizards and customers, I generally agree with you, although I see some method in their madness. The big problem with rare and expensive cards is that Wizards could completely tank the value of their cards tomorow for a quick buck. While this obviously isn't in Wizards long term interest, it is hard to convice people that they won't decide to take the easy money. By keeping this obviously ludicrous promise, it shows that Wizards will be reasonable with reprints and not take a leg out from under you.

That, or there's some wierd legal reason.
To all those saying that keeping the reprint policy hurts both Wizards and customers, I generally agree with you, although I see some method in their madness. The big problem with rare and expensive cards is that Wizards could completely tank the value of their cards tomorow for a quick buck. While this obviously isn't in Wizards long term interest, it is hard to convice people that they won't decide to take the easy money. By keeping this obviously ludicrous promise, it shows that Wizards will be reasonable with reprints and not take a leg out from under you.

That, or there's some wierd legal reason.



They could always just issue functional reprints.

But there are "power" concerns involved in some cases (the most desired cards), while there are also issues with how this will also cause the original versions to tank. They instead choose to keep those cards in high value, artificially inflating their value in the way deBeers inflates the value of released diamonds by enforcing market prices and stockpiling product. The diamond producers (in this case, R&D) are unable to make ANY money off their product because deBeers (the collectors) are trying to hold on to their insured and market-valued product. As they invest against that market, this allows them to make more and more money, and this causes the prices to rise. Unhealthily, for a product that is being created.

This is quite unlike other craft-built products: We usually value the items made, such as Fabergé's eggs, after the producer is no longer making them, or the painter is dead, or the artisan can produce no more. These items then become, effectively, priceless. There can be no more. This is not the case with Magic, so instead the products are withheld from further production at a cost to WotC, which in turn doesn't actually benefit WotC. The only logical conclusion I can come up with in this rather insanely non-economical idea is that WotC is legally bound against producing these cards. And who -- who?! -- would sign such a contract?
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)