Sticky In-Game situation makes me cry inside

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Hello fellow comrades, I am writing this thread to tell you about the curret 3.5 campaign I am playing in and to ask some advice, as you may have guessed, it is a bit problematic, here are the facts

PCs
Tiefling Paladin with +1 longsword
Halfling Rogue
   His Dog
Half-Elf Cleric

Then there are the NPCs, controlled by the DM, in our group
Human Paladin with Excalibur
Elf Paladin Demigod (Son of one of the Dragonlance deities, Habbakuk, and an elf)
Half Elf Half Dwarf (So wrong in my opinion, elf mother violated by 2 dwarves) who had for a brief period the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords
Grey Elf Wizard

The rogue told me he feels like he's useless

In my opinion the four NPCs slow the flow of the game, because essentially the DM has to play 4 characters and the other people we encounter, in fact the most common question asked to the GM is "Who is talking now?" and sometimes it seems he's talking to himself.
It also slows when we are fighting monsters for the above reason.
I tried to make him make the NPCs go away, but it seems he just won't listen.
What do think about it? Am I being too mean to my DM or not? What I should do?
How shall I put it?

Your DM isn't running a game.  He's masturbating.  More NPCs than PCs in the party?  An NPC with Excalibur, a demigod, and someone who once had an artifact?  Your PCs are irrelevant here, aren't they?  The NPCs handle everything that needs handled while you sit around and watch, right?  "OMG, look at my great and powerful NPCs?  Are they not majestic!?"

You need to talk to the DM, player-to-player (the DM is a player too, obviously) and tell him that
1. There are too many NPCs, and the effect it's having on the game, slowing things down, and being confusing because you don't know who's saying what.

2. Assuming I'm right about the NPCs hogging the spotlight (your statement about the rogue makes me think I am), this needs addressed as well.  You're there to play the game and participate in cooperative storytelling, not sit around and watch the DM play with his uber-powerful action figures.  DMPCs only work if they are follower-types; they should never upstage the PCs or be used to lead them around by the nose.

If he agrees, then there's no problem; your PCs can simply say, in-character, that they're slowing the NPCs down and part ways, going off to forge their own destinies.  If he disagrees, then simply stop playing, because he's a crappy DM and you're not having fun.  And if you're not having fun, why are you playing a game?
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
^ What Salla said.

Whenever a DM starts to introduce super-powered NPCs, and they aren't the intimidating big baddies of the campaign that the party is supposed to overcome, you can bet your DM isn't so much interested in providing the group with a fun and engaging story, so much as he wants to tell this "really awesome" story that's been in his head for ages. The wide gap in power between the PCs and NPCs is a clear indication that your DM sees your characters as supporting cast, and that you, the players, are strictly his audience, not his fellow actors in the story.

The fact that the rest of you have characters is irrelevant to the story in his head; his super NPCs are the real stars of the show, judging from what you've said, and that's not going to change unless you call him out on it. Now, you have admitted that your past attempt(s) to address the NPC problem produced not a bit of progress. It's a good idea to not address him one-on-one, but to speak to the other players in the group and have them gather their thoughts. Then, you can all discuss it as a group.

If he finally wakes up and realizes he's being selfish and anti-fun, then good; hopefully, you'll see the NPCs disappear and the spotlight can return to the PCs, where it should have always been. If he refuses, then walk. It doesn't make sense to keep playing in a game that sucks. Oh, and if he tries to compromise ("I'll remove one or two of the NPCs, but the others have to stay"), don't give him an inch. If even one of those NPCs stays on board, he can easily ensure that the spotlight remains centered on his creation.
My Sig
Reality is but the sum total of all illusions. Proud Hand of Karsus, now and forever Mess with one Hand, mess with 'em all I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
"just do what LM the lord of magical might does, and you'll be fine" - sfdragon, 10/12/09
Board Snippets
147048523 wrote:
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it." Repeat. Obstinance?
56790678 wrote:
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived. You haven't lived.
56902498 wrote:
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up! We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and.... One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to Go!
57062508 wrote:
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
56760448 wrote:
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison... MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development. TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment. You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
90571711 wrote:
Adding options at the system level is good. Adding options at the table level is hard. Removing options at the system level is bad. Removing options at the table level is easy. This is not complicated.
57333888 wrote:
112760109 wrote:
56902838 wrote:
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :| I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
158710691 wrote:
D&D definitely improves mental health; Just as long as you stay away from these forums ;)
How many sessions has this been going on?  I've seen dms do this because they are setting up the bbeg.
Your DM is doing it wrong.

NPCs should generally be there to move the plot along occasionally and if they engage in battle at all it should generally not involve rolling dice.

If they are in the actual battle they generally need to be someone the PCs are protecting or set up for automatic death/capture/betrayal for plot reasons. 

NPCs as comic relief is ok and about the only time I have been ok with an NPC as a member of the group.  We had one NPC for instance who was sort of tagging along for plot reasons and who our DM never really meant to be a major character, but the dice kept him alive for so long it became a running joke that he was part of the party and our PCs encouraged him to think he was actually a great warrior until rocks fell and he died.

Having NPCs "off stage" battling some great power is occasionally fine if appropriate to the plot.

NPCs should never overshadow PCs like how your DM is doing it.  I had a different DM who did that and it took someone else stepping up to DM to solve the problem and he soon left the group once he was no longer the center of attention.
How many sessions has this been going on?  I've seen dms do this because they are setting up the bbeg.



From the beginning we had the Demigod, another mage, who died and was replaced by the Grey Elf, and the Half Elf Half Dwarf, after a few sessions we got the other paladin

To give an idea of the time we started at level 1 and we are now 4/5

By the way we didn't know the elf was a Demigod until level 2/3
Oh, screw that.  Here's what you do.

Tell the npcs that you are going to let them go first into the next area with monsters to attract their attention.  Then turn the other way and leave.

See?  As long as the whole party does not participate in the game with those guys, there is no game.  You even have the perfect excuse: Next to those powerhouses, your characters feel useless.  Even if the power house characters had their own monsters, when those are taken care of, the monster challenges for you hold little for them.  Your lack of presence does nothing to help them.  You might as well stay out of the way and go home.
I agree with everything Mastercliff said, including the part about the possible set up. I had a DM introduce two overpowered NPC's to a group I was in once. For a couple sessions it felt like they were robbing the limelight and we were all getting fed up but none of us had said anything yet, then later on those two over powered NPC's that killed everything while we watched ended up being the main antagonists, which instantly shifted the anti-fun to super fun, because it went from "Wow these guys are so strong, we don't get to do anything" to "omg these guys are so strong and we have to figure out how to stop them" It was cool.

Although by the sounds of it it seems more likely your DM is playing with himself and enjoying the audience. Most of the options people gave you are good. Bring it up to your Dm as a group, say it's no fun with  them and they all have to go, don't let him keep even one around, and if he insists that there can't be a campaign with out them, either walk or say he has to cripple them, rob them, and possibly remove a limb. Or do what mastercliff said and just ditch the NPC's in the game, and if the DM asks out of character what's up, just say "it's no fun with them, we don't want them around"

If he's unreasonable then you have to get out, find a different DM and start over. There are some DM's that just can't be reasoned with ever.


Good Luck.
@OP: Although mastercliff's advice is solid, there is one potential pitfall to the plan. If your DM is especially put out/bitter that the rest of you don't want to have to deal with his league of super NPCs, he might let you ditch them temporarily, only to later be forced into a situation where the PCs are seriously overwhelmed and the NPCs suddenly return to save the day. Obviously, this would be an appropriate time to quit the campaign, but it's worth anticipating if you suspect your DM will be irritated when you tell him his elite NPCs are sucking the life out of the game. 
My Sig
Reality is but the sum total of all illusions. Proud Hand of Karsus, now and forever Mess with one Hand, mess with 'em all I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
"just do what LM the lord of magical might does, and you'll be fine" - sfdragon, 10/12/09
Board Snippets
147048523 wrote:
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it." Repeat. Obstinance?
56790678 wrote:
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived. You haven't lived.
56902498 wrote:
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up! We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and.... One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to Go!
57062508 wrote:
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
56760448 wrote:
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison... MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development. TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment. You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
90571711 wrote:
Adding options at the system level is good. Adding options at the table level is hard. Removing options at the system level is bad. Removing options at the table level is easy. This is not complicated.
57333888 wrote:
112760109 wrote:
56902838 wrote:
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :| I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
158710691 wrote:
D&D definitely improves mental health; Just as long as you stay away from these forums ;)
Your DM isn't running a game.  He's masturbating.

Mayhap a trifle indelicatly put, but it is undeniably accurate.  More NPC's than PC's, while the PC's have barely entered the midrange of single-digit levels, and the NPC's are godlings, artifact bearers and the players can't even keep track of conversations due to the cast of overhwhelming characters hogging the spotlight.

The game is not supposed to be about the adventures of NPC's and their PC sidekicks - IT IS ABOUT THE DEEDS OF THE PLAYER CHARACTERS with ONE, maybe two NPC sidekicks.  When the NPC's outnumber the PC's the DM has UTTERLY lost the point and the players should rise up and revolt.  The NPC's being described - even if they are interesting, amusing and flawlessly portrayed ('tchya... right) are an unneeded and unwanted intrusion into the the very reason the PLAYERS are supposed to be sitting at the table - to enjoy playing out THEIR adventures, not being flies on the wall of NPC-led adventures.  The party should not be saddled with permanent NPC party members unless it is necessary in order to assure the survival of the PC's against encounters COMPARABLE TO THIER OWN LEVEL.  Even then the NPC's should not remain with the party any longer than necessary and should never dominate the gameplay with their own motivations, conversations, abilities and deeds.

Seriously, this is not a situation for gentle persuasion and patience.  If YOU want to play D&D and not sit about while your DM masturbates with his NPC's you have to bring it to a screeching halt and start over.  Now this can be handled with more or less tact.

First, speak with the other players.  Ask their opinions on the ongoing situation and be SURE they are of like mind and willing to say and do what needs to be said and done if you all want to play D&D again with the same DM.  Then speak with the DM.  Don't ambush him and start making a lot of angry statements and recriminations.  He needs to know flatly what he's doing wrong but he's not a puppy that you should need to rub his nose in it and hit him with the DMG.  I'd suggest something along the lines of:

"DM, I'm afraid we've got an issue here.  We've been talking and we're just not having fun.  Our characters are following around a bunch of overpowered NPC's.  We're not having our own adventures - we're just watching theirs.  They do our fighting for us.  We are unchallenged.  We are bored because we just sit about and listen to THEM talk - or more accurately we listen to YOU talk to yourself and there are so many NPC's we can't even follow who's talking.  We're only 4th/5th level and we've got a demigod, an artifact wielder, and two other NPC's that are dominating the game.  The game is supposed to focus on OUR characters - not on YOUR NPC's.  As fun and fascinating as those NPC's may be to YOU, they are killing the game for us and it has to end.  We want adventures that feature OUR characters, not the NPC's.

"Since we've spoken about this before it should not be that much of a surprise that it has had to come down to this ultimatum.  Either all four of the DMPC's depart immediately - never to intrude on OUR characters time in the spotlight again, AND never to be replaced by other NPC's who attach themselves to OUR party without OUR invitation - or else we can just start over.  But seriously, it has to be one or the other."

Preferrably, this conversation would take place PRIOR to a game night so that he has a chance to absorb your challenge and hopefully prepare a new direction for your game (or a new game altogether), or at the very least come up with some other response.  Don't let the game go even one more session with those NPC's though.  That is simply not what anyone ever agrees to play D&D to do - take a backseat to the DM's NPC's, especially DMPC's that outnumber and vastly outpower the PLAYER characters, making them irrelevant.

Old School: It ain't what you play - it's how you play it.

My 1E Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/Building%20D&D/buildingdnd.htm

"Who says I can't?" "The man in the funny hat..."

Yesterday we had a session, the DM said Excalibur will leave, I taked to him again about making the NPCs go away, seems like he's starting to consider it (or again, not listening at all), too bad the other two were absent (yes I was the only one present).
I called the rogue and he said he agrees with me but I kind of knew that, I hope to manage to contact the cleric to get her opinion.
Yesterday we had a session, the DM said Excalibur will leave, I taked to him again about making the NPCs go away, seems like he's starting to consider it (or again, not listening at all), too bad the other two were absent (yes I was the only one present).
I called the rogue and he said he agrees with me but I kind of knew that, I hope to manage to contact the cleric to get her opinion.




So wait, you're saying you were the only player there in your latest session?

Yeah it's as all of us thought, the DM doesn't care what the players do, as long as he has some form of audience for his little playtime. As a DM, I always would go out of my way to reschedule sessions if people couldn't make it, I hated doing sessions with out the players since they are the fuel. In your Dm's case, they are the crowd.

I change my stance, you and your friends need to quit, start a new campaign, with a different DM, either one of you guys or a new one, and leave your ex Dm with a very simple choice. Join the group as a player, or don't bother. If you guys are good friends, I can see how being more delicate may be important, but it's rediculous what your DM is doing.


How to have fun 

Step 1. Ignore what your character sheet says your party is Chaotic evil and level 30. say you found a magic Mgguffin. OOps was my spellbook the BOVD the whole time? Yes yes it was. 
Step 2. Murder in horrible ways all of his NPC's  ( bonus points for humiliation and or breaking thier spirit).
Step 3. Repeat step 2. All over the cities that DM loves. Especially the ones that he considers a paragon of civilization.
Step 4. Laugh. When your Dm screams that you cant do something laugh more and do it more horribly.'

Step 5. make sure tape of session is recorded and uploaded to youtube Amazing meltdowns need to be documented and shared. 
 
All of this is Build up for step 6. 


Step 6. Have everyone pull out new character sheets and you start running your own game. Pick up a print adventure or two if you need ideas. Dont worry about being an awesome DM just make sure your friends have fun. Read everything by Chris Perkins, but only try to do about a tenth of what he does and youll be great. Dont worry if your not a natural storyteller or have plots spilling out of your head. 
The very fact your posting on the forums says you have enough invested in your players to be an ok DM. 
I bet even your wanker DM has fun. (for added chuckles make sure the party encounters the corpses of the previous NPC's )
57189838 wrote:
It may be late to post this suggestion, get a small booklet and write PC Rules on the front, and then inside start making up PC Rules to counter DM rules. Remember to use Ink, it's official if it is in Ink. If he says "it is DM's rules" then consult your PC rulebook for an appropriate rule such as "When the DM is railroading you then a PC may transfer to a train of his own choosing" ... ...If cash isn't an issue, have your rules Notorized, ussually this only costs about $20 or so a page, obviously Notorized rules will trump his rules, and most courts of law would agree, plus think of the entertainment value of presenting these rules to a Notary Public.
Thank you Doxbrown, you gave me my smile for the day. Laughing

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

RedSiegfried wrote:
The cool thing is, you don't even NEED a reason to say yes.  Just stop looking for a reason to say no.
How to have fun 

Step 1. Ignore what your character sheet says your party is Chaotic evil and level 30. say you found a magic Mgguffin. OOps was my spellbook the BOVD the whole time? Yes yes it was. 
Step 2. Murder in horrible ways all of his NPC's  ( bonus points for humiliation and or breaking thier spirit).
Step 3. Repeat step 2. All over the cities that DM loves. Especially the ones that he considers a paragon of civilization.
Step 4. Laugh. When your Dm screams that you cant do something laugh more and do it more horribly.'

Step 5. make sure tape of session is recorded and uploaded to youtube Amazing meltdowns need to be documented and shared. 
 
All of this is Build up for step 6. 


Step 6. Have everyone pull out new character sheets and you start running your own game. Pick up a print adventure or two if you need ideas. Dont worry about being an awesome DM just make sure your friends have fun. Read everything by Chris Perkins, but only try to do about a tenth of what he does and youll be great. Dont worry if your not a natural storyteller or have plots spilling out of your head. 
The very fact your posting on the forums says you have enough invested in your players to be an ok DM. 
I bet even your wanker DM has fun. (for added chuckles make sure the party encounters the corpses of the previous NPC's )



I'm going to hope you're being sarcastic or satirical or something, because the first five steps are total bull and some of the worst advice I have ever read.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Aubsurdity is sometimes the best way to deal with bad situations. Yes steps 1-5 are completly aubsurd and no one should do them IRL, but so is a DM playing with his NPC dolls every week while the players are ignored. 
Tool Time, dont really destroy your DM's playground especailly in such a childish way.* 
  
Step 6 is serious though. Its "New DM o'clock" and I think you will do a great job.


* but if you do send me the Youtube link. 
57189838 wrote:
It may be late to post this suggestion, get a small booklet and write PC Rules on the front, and then inside start making up PC Rules to counter DM rules. Remember to use Ink, it's official if it is in Ink. If he says "it is DM's rules" then consult your PC rulebook for an appropriate rule such as "When the DM is railroading you then a PC may transfer to a train of his own choosing" ... ...If cash isn't an issue, have your rules Notorized, ussually this only costs about $20 or so a page, obviously Notorized rules will trump his rules, and most courts of law would agree, plus think of the entertainment value of presenting these rules to a Notary Public.

and this is exactly the reason why i try to tell my current DM his NPC's are fun and ok in every sense of the word.  This Dm should be writing a fanfic book rather then running a campaign.

Or do what I am going to do for my first 4th setting when I DM.  Its going to be set in a story I've written before.  The main heroes will be there but off to the side.  The players my interact with them if they run over them but they are running their own separate story. 


If anyone is confused about what I’m talking about think of the war in the north story from LOTR.  Yes the one ring had to be destroyed but without the party doing their thing in the north Middle earth still would have been boned and that’s the setting I’m hoping to come out with for my run.  Sure important **** is happening with the main characters of my story what the party does and where they adventure I hope has a lasting and important impact on the overall story as well but half the fun is waiting and seeing what they do. 


Hell maybe they will kill the main story character’s by accident that would be even more fun heh then they have to step into that role.  The point is the party should directs the story flow, the DM can try to guide and encourage but he should never dictate. And smart DM's can always dangle the carrot well enough that the party doesn't notice and keeps his story mostly on track if they let the party have their fun and adapt as need be to the party's needs not their own.


I decided to quit the campaign, the rogue and I were asking the DM to make all the NPCs go away, but he won't make the Demigod leave, choice enforce by the Cleric, so I just said to myself "This is messing with my mind, getting all anxious and stuff"

In this latest conversation he told me that he created those characters so we could play them, and it was kind of our fault the party got this big, so I told him:"The basic of D&D is that a group of people create THEIR characters and live adventures with THEM"
I think I may have been a bit rude.

Anyway I have mixed feelings at the moment, but in the end I hope I made a good decision, I feel kind of sorry for the rogue anyway.
I decided to quit the campaign, the rogue and I were asking the DM to make all the NPCs go away, but he won't make the Demigod leave, choice enforce by the Cleric, so I just said to myself "This is messing with my mind, getting all anxious and stuff"

In this latest conversation he told me that he created those characters so we could play them, and it was kind of our fault the party got this big, so I told him:"The basic of D&D is that a group of people create THEIR characters and live adventures with THEM"
I think I may have been a bit rude.

Anyway I have mixed feelings at the moment, but in the end I hope I made a good decision, I feel kind of sorry for the rogue anyway.

Think of it this way - if your DM initially anticipated you playing the characters HE created, then somewhere along the way he probably would've gotten snarky when one of you wasn't playing the character the way HE intended. If he was eager enough to create them in the first place, he likely had their personalities all laid out, and he probably would have lost his cool when you didn't play them the way HE would've played them.

The fact that he was so blind to the idea that players like to make the effort of developing their own characters is just another example of why this guy shouldn't be allowed behind a DM screen. I know you have mixed feelings now, but I'm pretty sure you'll quickly come to accept you took the wise path and spared yourself hours of further frustration and disappointment. I hope your next group proves much more enjoyable.

My Sig
Reality is but the sum total of all illusions. Proud Hand of Karsus, now and forever Mess with one Hand, mess with 'em all I am Blue/Green
I am Blue/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
"just do what LM the lord of magical might does, and you'll be fine" - sfdragon, 10/12/09
Board Snippets
147048523 wrote:
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it." Repeat. Obstinance?
56790678 wrote:
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived. You haven't lived.
56902498 wrote:
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up! We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and.... One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to Go!
57062508 wrote:
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
56760448 wrote:
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison... MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development. TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment. You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
90571711 wrote:
Adding options at the system level is good. Adding options at the table level is hard. Removing options at the system level is bad. Removing options at the table level is easy. This is not complicated.
57333888 wrote:
112760109 wrote:
56902838 wrote:
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :| I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
158710691 wrote:
D&D definitely improves mental health; Just as long as you stay away from these forums ;)
...wait, if they were supposed to be character you play...why was he playing them?
...wait, if they were supposed to be character you play...why was he playing them?



*Makes wet smacking noises with my mouth*

Aye, it doesn't make sense to me either. In the end, you made the right choice. I don't mind the occational NPC for short term, but since they been with you up to level 5, he's clearly gloryhogging his own story and taking too long to get to the point he might have had in mind. This DM not so much missed the boat but swam across the English Channal.
...wait, if they were supposed to be character you play...why was he playing them?

Sounds like a communication snafu... I have played and run a few break-campaigns (short string of adventures or one-shots in between regular ones) where the DM designed the PCs and we had great fun, but everybody playing was well aware in advance that this was the idea. I would also not do it as a regular campaign, all though if everybody is having fun it can certainly turn into one.
Op, you did the right thing.  You weren't having fun, and since you were the only person who showed up last session, I'm betting others didn't either.

where the DM designed the PCs and we had great fun, but everybody playing was well aware in advance that this was the idea.


Did he also have you make up extra baggage characters?  Premade characters can be fun, but the guy said their characters were the one he created.  And a level 8 with excalibur?

   a level 8 with excalibur?


Seems legit.
Op, you did the right thing.  You weren't having fun, and since you were the only person who showed up last session, I'm betting others didn't either.
where the DM designed the PCs and we had great fun, but everybody playing was well aware in advance that this was the idea.

Did he also have you make up extra baggage characters?  Premade characters can be fun, but the guy said their characters were the one he created.  And a level 8 with excalibur?

If the communicution error was big enough? I can see it happen accidentally. In my groups we never make PCs in advance for a campaign, but during session 0 with the whole group together, so this cannot happen accidentally. If you always let people create PCs beforehand with no input from the DM beforehand, I can see this happening, but obviously, ending up with both the PC and NPC at the same table during playtime is not a good situation. I was merely reaction to people being surprised a DM created the PCs since that does not has to be a bad thing persee...

As for Excalibur and level 8, Excalibur is just a name. There is no such item in D&D (at least not as as far as I know in 2e, 3e and 4e, but I don't know all source material), so if you name that +1 flaming blade "Excalibur" there is no issue that an 8th level character has it. Besides, Arthur had the blade at level 1. Fact is that there is nothing wrong with powerful items at lower levels as long as all characters have equally cool tools and the DM knows how to deal with the potential balance issues. Again, this is a general observation, and in all honesty, considering the rest I doubt it applies to the OPs situation.
I called the rogue and asked him what they did in the last session

All four NPCs were still there, the Paladin lost Excalibur but with 18 in Str, Dex and if I remember right even Cha, still packs a punch.
At least the Rogue met Yondalla who raised all his stats so he has no negative modifiers now

I'm happy with my choice of leaving


As for Excalibur and level 8, Excalibur is just a name. There is no such item in D&D (at least not as as far as I know in 2e, 3e and 4e, but I don't know all source material)



1e's Dieties and Demigods statted it out.  Something like a +4 vorpal blade, with a scabbard that made you more or less invulnerable, if memory serves.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
NPC's are the side kicks of the fantasy world. They support the players, not the otherway around (unless its a very good reason, like the NPC is the King).  I have a sneaky feeling that the NPC's are some of the DM's old characers that he still wants to play.
NPC's are the side kicks of the fantasy world. They support the players, not the otherway around (unless its a very good reason, like the NPC is the King).  I have a sneaky feeling that the NPC's are some of the DM's old characers that he still wants to play.




This is basically the essence of NPCs, nicely said. 
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
NPC's are the side kicks of the fantasy world. They support the players, not the otherway around (unless its a very good reason, like the NPC is the King).  I have a sneaky feeling that the NPC's are some of the DM's old characers that he still wants to play.



Even in such a case, the King is still 'supporting cast'.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.

If this guy was so hung up on his premade story with these characters.  He should of been more vocal about it from the start rather then just playing them as NPC's

Now if he was adamant about having the party play them I would of suggested that he come up with a small fun campaign, maybe based in the same world for your characters to have had a few months of fun in before suggestion the idea of doing something bigger and brought his characters to the table and let you guys decide if you wanted to play them or not along with providing some impute on how you might make them your own and incorporate that into his builds and story. 

In the end giving the players something to latch onto and make their own,  goes a long way in helping the whole group  stay together and have fun.

This is just my 2 cent because in the end this whole situation is just wrong really and should never have happened with a DM that has half a brain.


1e's Dieties and Demigods statted it out.  Something like a +4 vorpal blade, with a scabbard that made you more or less invulnerable, if memory serves.


    +5 LG sword of sharpness, scabbard was half damage from piercing and slashing...


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I am the Magic Man.

(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.)

 

I am the Lawnmower Man.

(I AM GOD HERE!)

 

I am the Skull God.

(Koo Koo Ka Choo)

 

There are reasons they call me Mad...

Time to end that particular campaign and start over WITHOUT all the NPC's.

Seriously, one or 2 NPC's that are well-developed to give a party some muscle/spellcasting/lockpicking/etc. is good, and gives the GM a voice once in a while to tell the PC's some information ("John turns to you and asks 'What happened to that magic wand we found?'" Players forgot about the wand they need to use.) This guy has gone way overboard.

A party that is supposed to be the helpers or champions of some NPC, like the Demigod you listed, can be fun, but he shouldn't be hanging around all the time doing stuff himself. He might be able to show up once per playing session to save your bacon, but then thats it-- rest of the play session its all on the PC's to survive.

Tell the DM you just don't want to play this campaign anymore as is, and if he won't start something new or make changes, pick a new DM.

1e's Dieties and Demigods statted it out.  Something like a +4 vorpal blade, with a scabbard that made you more or less invulnerable, if memory serves.


    +5 LG sword of sharpness, scabbard was half damage from piercing and slashing...



Regardless, "an artifact".  Inappropriate for any NPC, ever, period.

Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Regardless, "an artifact".  Inappropriate for any NPC, ever, period.


Not so.  Why, I've had my group run into 3 artifacts already.  All held by their bitter enemies.
Regardless, "an artifact".  Inappropriate for any NPC, ever, period.


Not so.  Why, I've had my group run into 3 artifacts already.  All held by their bitter enemies.



I believe he meant DMPCs rather than NPCs in general.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Regardless, "an artifact".  Inappropriate for any NPC, ever, period.


Not so.  Why, I've had my group run into 3 artifacts already.  All held by their bitter enemies.



I should clarify:  I did mean "friendly NPC", and, yes, "DMPC".
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
DMPCs should be killed on sight. I had to play a game with a DMPC. We had such wonderful times in the game, like:


  •  When she sacrificed herself to save us, then used the Loyalty of one of the PCs to force us to rescue her. Two of us thought the DM was actually giving us the ability to lead ourselves.

  • When she was tortured and unconscious, but was able to stand up and kill two of her guards, without any assistance from us. Making my friend and I question if she was using an overpowered character when she rolled dice. And if her character even needed us.

  • When she knew every NPC that we had to interact with, even her war buddy(another PC) who never left her side didn't know them.

  • When it was revealed halfway through the game that her character loved her war buddy. It was an awkward session for everyone involved. We are still not sure what was going on there.

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