This is not The "one ring" we were promised would unite us

I am a long time player and fan of the D&D franchise. Been at it for well over 24 years. I have been part of a rejected fanbase with this game since 2000. That makes me a Grognard by the standards of Most if not all of our current fans. I am tired. I'm just not seeing Next as the "one ring" to unite us as a fanbase again and is probably going to fracture us even further. I find that the edition wars are no where near over. 
  In fact I found myself engaged in this stupid behavior too as of late. Funny thing is we don't even realize we do it. I have been given the distinct feeling that we older players are unwanted and that our opinions don't matter to the modern gamer. I am told that my kind are bad for the game and not the target demographic to make Next a success. I have actually been told that I don't matter as my kind will be dead in a couple of decades. I am willing to give the new gaurd what they are asking for, I will go away and fade back into the shadows again and never play or playtest Next again. All I would ask for is a reprint of the Classic Pre WOTC editions in their entirety so I can have a way to purchase the core books new to give them to my son. 1e. only scratches the surface. I just want to share what I love with my children and not be a pirate or have used books to give them please.
I am a long time player and fan of the D&D franchise. Been at it for well over 24 years. I have been part of a rejected fanbase with this game since 2000. That makes me a Grognard by the standards of Most if not all of our current fans. I am tired. I'm just not seeing Next as the "one ring" to unite us as a fanbase again and is probably going to fracture us even further. I find that the edition wars are no where near over. 
  In fact I found myself engaged in this stupid behavior too as of late. Funny thing is we don't even realize we do it. I have been given the distinct feeling that we older players are unwanted and that our opinions don't matter to the modern gamer. I am told that my kind are bad for the game and not the target demographic to make Next a success. I have actually been told that I don't matter as my kind will be dead in a couple of decades. I am willing to give the new gaurd what they are asking for, I will go away and fade back into the shadows again and never play or playtest Next again. All I would ask for is a reprint of the Classic Pre WOTC editions in their entirety so I can have a way to purchase the core books new to give them to my son. 1e. only scratches the surface. I just want to share what I love with my children and not be a pirate or have used books to give them please.



Well now that's sad. If 5E is not for the grognard and its not for the 4E fans, then who is it for?

"Try to please everyone and you'll please no one."
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I am a long time player and fan of the D&D franchise. Been at it for well over 24 years. I have been part of a rejected fanbase with this game since 2000. That makes me a Grognard by the standards of Most if not all of our current fans. I am tired. I'm just not seeing Next as the "one ring" to unite us as a fanbase again and is probably going to fracture us even further. I find that the edition wars are no where near over.

Nod.  I've been with the game since 1980, started with the blue-booklet basic set.  I did give up on it in the second half of the 90s - 2e had just gotten too bloated - but picked it right back up with 3.0 and the whole 'back to the dungeon' gimick, which apealed to my sense of nostalgia.  That nostalgia lasted a few sessions, but the game was good enough to stand on it's own after that.  3.5 wasn't any better or worse, just a little annoying as an obvious cash-grab.  4e was a clear improvement, and Essentials made 3.5 look well-advised by contrast, but I've managed to stick with the game thus far.

I have been given the distinct feeling that we older players are unwanted and that our opinions don't matter to the modern gamer. I am told that my kind are bad for the game and not the target demographic to make Next a success.

That's only half right.  You are absolutely the target demographic for D&D Next (and for Essentials, though it presumably missed you completely).  Longtime D&Ders, long absent, are exactly who 5e is gunning for.  

But, our opinions (obviously) vary.  There are those of us old gamers who just like the old game, the way we played it back in the day, and those who have fixated on one version or another after the one we started with, and perhaps even a few with open minds (well, hey, it's possible).  ;)

I have actually been told that I don't matter as my kind will be dead in a couple of decades.

Well, retired, anyway.  Life expectancy's still 77+, isn't it?

I am willing to give the new gaurd what they are asking for, I will go away and fade back into the shadows again and never play or playtest Next again. All I would ask for is a reprint of the Classic Pre WOTC editions in their entirety so I can have a way to purchase the core books new to give them to my son. 1e. only scratches the surface. I just want to share what I love with my children and not be a pirate or have used books to give them please.

Sounds very reasonable.

 

 

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I am a long time player and fan of the D&D franchise. Been at it for well over 24 years. I have been part of a rejected fanbase with this game since 2000. That makes me a Grognard by the standards of Most if not all of our current fans. I am tired. I'm just not seeing Next as the "one ring" to unite us as a fanbase again and is probably going to fracture us even further. I find that the edition wars are no where near over. 
  In fact I found myself engaged in this stupid behavior too as of late. Funny thing is we don't even realize we do it. I have been given the distinct feeling that we older players are unwanted and that our opinions don't matter to the modern gamer. I am told that my kind are bad for the game and not the target demographic to make Next a success. I have actually been told that I don't matter as my kind will be dead in a couple of decades. I am willing to give the new gaurd what they are asking for, I will go away and fade back into the shadows again and never play or playtest Next again. All I would ask for is a reprint of the Classic Pre WOTC editions in their entirety so I can have a way to purchase the core books new to give them to my son. 1e. only scratches the surface. I just want to share what I love with my children and not be a pirate or have used books to give them please.



Having started playing in 1978 I feel the same way.  Been basicly told the same things as you, I too want a reprint of the "TSR" era books and modules.  

Well now that's sad. If 5E is not for the grognard and its not for the 4E fans, then who is it for?

"Try to please everyone and you'll please no one."

Clearly it's not for people that react as rashly as that. The game's not going to be out for at least a year, possibly two years. We've seen one very limited playtest containing some basic ideas. We know that the designers are actually taking in feedback en masse and responding to anything that stands out.

All we know for sure is that the playtest material, the rough 30-page stuff drawn up purely so that we could cry out at it to smooth away the roughness, is clearly not meant for many forumgoers. C'mon guys, keep your brains on.  The forums are not the fanbase; we're a minority of the fanbase, and a pretty extremist minority at that. We're good at numbers and we're good at theory, but any time that we represent the fanbase at large is purely happenstance. If somebody makes a topic like "this makes me and my friends unhappy and I like 3e" that doesn't mean 3e fans don't like D&D Next in general. Doesn't mean that even if ten people make that same kind of topic. Wizards of the Coast is playing with a fanbase in the tens of thousands, so in order for us to actually be representative of anything the entire forum population would have to be in utter outrage. And that's just not the case.
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
Why do i feel that my very unsensitive commentary on other threads ignited this thought on brightmantle? =V

Never before i have felt so young for being 26 (even thought my current D&D group, i am the eldest).  

I have no comment on the general topic...because either i lack any sense of nostalgia for anything,  i will treasure the good memories of the past, but i don't want them to relieve them again, i prefer brand new experiences that never felt before.
I have actually seen many in both camps that type the same thing. "I guess this isn't for me". It's alright. We should be able to know by the basics if we do or don't like something, That's how I began playing this game- with the Red Box set of 1980's and it had the same information in it, levels 1-3. Thanks for the insult about being rash, After all my experiences have taught me nothing about my preferences over 24 years. I just don't want to rage against the machine anymore. I'm old enough to know what I do and do not like. This isn't it. And both camps are saying it. I think deep down we know it. It just hurts to admit it.
I have actually seen many in both camps that type the same thing. "I guess this isn't for me". It's alright. We should be able to know by the basics if we do or don't like something, That's how I began playing this game- with the Red Box set of 1980's and it had the same information in it, levels 1-3.

Y'know, it's funny.  Because when we went through the playtest, it kept reminding me of early 80s D&D.   Amped up in a few ways, but still strongly reminiscent.  Then again, games varied a lot more from group to group back in the day...

 

 

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So, this doesn't appeal to the really new players or the really old ones?  That's weird--it does appeal to me, and I started with AD&D 2e in '93 (though I did play 3rd and 4e as well).  In fact, with the exception of using daily resources of any kind, I have several times felt like this game was being specifically designed for me.

Is this game targetted at us folk in the middle?  Or am I just weird?
So, this doesn't appeal to the really new players or the really old ones?  That's weird--it does appeal to me, and I started with AD&D 2e in '93 (though I did play 3rd and 4e as well).  In fact, with the exception of using daily resources of any kind, I have several times felt like this game was being specifically designed for me.

Is this game targetted at us folk in the middle?  Or am I just weird?



I am not sure who they are actually targeting, but I played 1e, 2e and tried 4e.  The playtest seems to be closer to 1e or 2e than to 4e.  But we will see what happens in the next playtest packet or 2.

Brightmantle,

I definitely feel your pain, though I do think so far Next is looking a lot like a TSR era clone with some modern ideas thrown in.  My suggestion is to not give up the fight.  A lot of the younger gamers here are just as pessimistic, but their attitude is to stick it out, fighting for their preferences even though they are convinced the final product will suck, and they're not going to buy.  We need balance against those people.  Stick around and give your two cents (or more). 

Oh, and BTW the answer to the rudeness you have experienced is to report the posts the insults appear in.  Before long people like that who can't be civil will be banned...and maybe eventually perma-banned. 
 

Kalex the Omen 
Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire

I have actually seen many in both camps that type the same thing. "I guess this isn't for me". It's alright. We should be able to know by the basics if we do or don't like something, That's how I began playing this game- with the Red Box set of 1980's and it had the same information in it, levels 1-3. Thanks for the insult about being rash, After all my experiences have taught me nothing about my preferences over 24 years. I just don't want to rage against the machine anymore. I'm old enough to know what I do and do not like. This isn't it. And both camps are saying it. I think deep down we know it. It just hurts to admit it.


I've actually been hoping for a conversion engine to be printed to allow players of every edition to play their prefered edition with this new "simple core"

So that players could pick up an adventure from next, do a hopefully small amount of tweaks and play it in their ideal ruleset.

I honestly don't know much about 1e, but do you think this is a possibiility?  That way your son could be playing your prefered edition but doing it with brand new adventures that are releasing today?

Also would you mind commenting on what you want to see in dnd?  What would make the experience you were hoping for in a new edition?- ignoring the "unite the ediitons" concept- Just what you want.  I never played before 3e and have always been curious (absoultely loved the fluff in the adnd dmg) but never got a chance to play adnd or before.  There are a number of threads about "what I want in the new ediiton" but I really want to hear from someone like yourself whose preference is the earlier editions.

[also I'm really sorry to hear about your experiences.  I have posted on the boards that I think the target should be the young kids to try to make it catch fire, but I don't think they should leave anyone out in the cold.  Which was why I was hoping with this simple core they might be able to do a conversion engine]
Please collect and update the DND Next Community Wiki Page with your ideas and suggestions!
Take a look at my clarified ability scores And also my Houserules relevent to DNDNext
Brightmantle,

A couple of weeks ago I felt the same.  But as I thought about it more and more, one simple realization came to me: its far too early.  We're tired, yes.  Been tired for a long time, but that's the nature of any long-running conflict.  Especially one so worn out and unwinnable as this one, because - much like the game we love - there -is- no 'winner'.  There can't be.  It's a cultural divide, and the only way one side can 'win' is if the other -literally- dies off and leaves no heir.  I don't see that happening to either of us.

May I humbly suggest finding a forum that more aligns with your feelings and dividing your time between there and here.  I don't mean to advocate isolating yourself from those who disagree -- that way lies madness.  But neither can you only be in a forum of constant negativity to your own views.  A healthy dose of both is essential.

Remember, it's just an internet forum.  Sometimes I feel I 'know' people better than I really do, and that's to be expected to a degree, but it must always remain in your mind that in fact, we don't.  Many of the casual criticisms, the snarky responses, the things of that nature...at a game table you wouldn't hear that.  It is only because we are -not- at a game table that you hear these things with such ferocity, and this is true of both sides.

I believe Next is aimed more towards both groups than any of us realize, and at the same time it is aimed less at either group.  We can only think in terms of what has gone before, so comparisons to editions past are the best manner we have to think of it at the moment, with all the attendant baggage that brings.  In the end, we -will- all be able to play.  No one can 'unite' the base because the base is split not among editions, but among the meaning of the phrase 'roleplaying game' and the methods of resolution in said game.  But 'unite' doesn't have to mean a monolithic hivemind.  If Grizley and Lokiare and Lawolf and Tony_Vargas and Seerow and EnglishLanguage and Pashalik_Mans and everyone else on one side can play, and you and I and Kalex and Celtas and Maxperson and Wndstar and Jacob_Singer and Reapertat and everyone else on another side can play, and all the people in the middle can play...then we're united by name, even if not by the strictest interpretation of ruleset.  And that...is good enough.

Besides, we all know my way is best. Tongue Out  Hang in there; take a breather and come back.  It's gunna be a long trip...and when it's over, you'll definitely want to be able to say 'yah...I was there for that'.  Sorry to ramble on so long.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

All I would ask for is a reprint of the Classic Pre WOTC editions in their entirety so I can have a way to purchase the core books new to give them to my son. 1e. only scratches the surface. I just want to share what I love with my children and not be a pirate or have used books to give them please.



They can't do that-- what's the point of waiting out your death and winnowing you from the "true" gamer population if you're just going to spread your views to younger generations? ;)
Don't fret yet.

The problem is that fact that see the core and not the modules.

The core is Designed to be incomplete.
The modules are supposed to flavor it to taste.

But we only see the bland salad of core...

...and we are waiting for some information on the modules which are the entrees. And everybody is getting HUNGRY!

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

And some of us have decided that the salad tastes bad and have seen that the other courses are offering things we don't find appetizing or are allergic to.

Brightmantle and others - I don't have an issue with you wanting what you want. I have an issue with the way you've come across at times and that it seems most of you don't want those of us with differing opinions, such as the 5MWD mechanical fix crowd, to have the option to have their opinion in print in addition to your own.

I won't tell you whether or not to give up hope, Brightmantle. That's your decision. Between what I've seen on these forums and responses I've gotten from Mearls himself, I already have.
So, this doesn't appeal to the really new players or the really old ones?  That's weird--it does appeal to me, and I started with AD&D 2e in '93 (though I did play 3rd and 4e as well).  In fact, with the exception of using daily resources of any kind, I have several times felt like this game was being specifically designed for me.

Is this game targetted at us folk in the middle?  Or am I just weird?



I started in '95, played every subsequent edition, and hate what I've seen from 5E.
...whatever
I am a long time player and fan of the D&D franchise. Been at it for well over 24 years. I have been part of a rejected fanbase with this game since 2000. That makes me a Grognard by the standards of Most if not all of our current fans. I am tired. I'm just not seeing Next as the "one ring" to unite us as a fanbase again and is probably going to fracture us even further. I find that the edition wars are no where near over. 
  In fact I found myself engaged in this stupid behavior too as of late. Funny thing is we don't even realize we do it. I have been given the distinct feeling that we older players are unwanted and that our opinions don't matter to the modern gamer. I am told that my kind are bad for the game and not the target demographic to make Next a success. I have actually been told that I don't matter as my kind will be dead in a couple of decades. I am willing to give the new gaurd what they are asking for, I will go away and fade back into the shadows again and never play or playtest Next again. All I would ask for is a reprint of the Classic Pre WOTC editions in their entirety so I can have a way to purchase the core books new to give them to my son. 1e. only scratches the surface. I just want to share what I love with my children and not be a pirate or have used books to give them please.



I think both sides on this forum know what they like and what they want, and these likes and wants are often in direct conflict. WotC says they want to unite things, but that is hard to do when giving some people what they want ruins things for other people. I'm not saying it can't be done, but we've been shown little to give us hope for unity.

As for older players being unwanted, it's not exactly that. What you want are often things I don't want and would/will ruin the game for me. 

...whatever
I have actually seen many in both camps that type the same thing. "I guess this isn't for me". It's alright. We should be able to know by the basics if we do or don't like something, That's how I began playing this game- with the Red Box set of 1980's and it had the same information in it, levels 1-3. Thanks for the insult about being rash, After all my experiences have taught me nothing about my preferences over 24 years. I just don't want to rage against the machine anymore. I'm old enough to know what I do and do not like. This isn't it. And both camps are saying it. I think deep down we know it. It just hurts to admit it.


I've actually been hoping for a conversion engine to be printed to allow players of every edition to play their prefered edition with this new "simple core"

So that players could pick up an adventure from next, do a hopefully small amount of tweaks and play it in their ideal ruleset.

I honestly don't know much about 1e, but do you think this is a possibiility?  That way your son could be playing your prefered edition but doing it with brand new adventures that are releasing today?

Also would you mind commenting on what you want to see in dnd?  What would make the experience you were hoping for in a new edition?- ignoring the "unite the ediitons" concept- Just what you want.  I never played before 3e and have always been curious (absoultely loved the fluff in the adnd dmg) but never got a chance to play adnd or before.  There are a number of threads about "what I want in the new ediiton" but I really want to hear from someone like yourself whose preference is the earlier editions.

[also I'm really sorry to hear about your experiences.  I have posted on the boards that I think the target should be the young kids to try to make it catch fire, but I don't think they should leave anyone out in the cold.  Which was why I was hoping with this simple core they might be able to do a conversion engine]

conversion engine? Can't just pick abilities close to it and say," Close enough"?
No, it's not.  It requires more information to be released before it even remotely attempts to do that.  The current playtest is extremely thin, and doesn't include many of the things people really are looking for.

Patience.  More is coming.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
No, it's not.  It requires more information to be released before it even remotely attempts to do that.  The current playtest is extremely thin, and doesn't include many of the things people really are looking for.

Patience.  More is coming.



Patience requires faith, and WotC has undermined whatever faith I had to the point where it no longer exists. Until I see something that restores faith, my judgement of things based on what we've seen stands.
...whatever
All I would ask for is a reprint of the Classic Pre WOTC editions in their entirety so I can have a way to purchase the core books new to give them to my son. 1e. only scratches the surface. I just want to share what I love with my children and not be a pirate or have used books to give them please.



They can't do that-- what's the point of waiting out your death and winnowing you from the "true" gamer population if you're just going to spread your views to younger generations? ;)

Good luck with the waiting me out part. I've been here for 24 years and I'm 35. My particular generation wont die out for 4 decades. We will just get alienated, and go play the old game we always have or Pathfinder who does want us and cost WOTC players and money. As far as spreading the taint- of my opinion you can kiss mine..taint that is.Tongue Out My kids play with us now. Real gamer? Longevity whipper snapper. In time you too will learn.
The "One Ring" thing is just a "marketing" motto. a political thing. When then say "unite the fans of all edition", they just tell their hopes. They can't build something that will satisfy every one and all of the players that ever played D&D.
What they do is try to build an edition that can, or could, have an unified fanbase as wide as possible. Not an edition that every one can look at and say "It's all I ever loved in D&D", but one that can have a majority as big as possible of D&D players supporting it.
Of course it means that some players will be left unsatisfied, because this new edition will be too far from what they expect/want/are used to/would like/whatever D&D to be. Some grognards won't accept the "new" things in 5E. Some "4vengers" won't accept the old school design. The target is the middle ground, not specific subpopulation.
Will it work ? Will the current design ideas (or the current design team) be able to make a new edition of D&D interesting enough to create its own big and wide fanbase ? Or will the "common denominator" angle fail at finding its audience ? The bets are open.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I certainly hope that they will give support for old grognards by publishing, in one way or another, material for old editions, though - even if I don't care about old D&D at all, personally. Simply because I never believed in the "everyone should play the same game" goal of major publishers, and think the "role playing community" is made of fractured audiences with very different expectations and very different games answering them, and that the good angle for a publisher is to produce different products for different people.

Sidenote :  We could have a long discussion on the "WoW effect" - this "miracle" of publishing a game (video game or not)and having it reach a bigger audience than anyone could have expected... It's obviously an unstated hope for D&D or other game publishers, but I doubt anyone understands, even today, how it really was possible.
Remember Tunnel Seventeen !
I'll chime in as another "oldie" insofar as I started back in the redbox days (although I recall a reprint being purple?), and have played every edition over the years (sans 3.0, I started up again after 3.5 was released). I really enjoyed 1e, but 2e I liked much more because the rules felt more streamlined. My daughter and I participated in Living Greyhawk together, and had a great time visiting other cities and being connected to the player base at large. 3.5e was far from perfect, but the community of LG made it enjoyable. I met a lot of awesome players, and that helped me appreciate what really made "D&D" what it is.

I immediately loved 4e when it first came out, even though it was radically different than the past editions. For me, I was pining for a balanced system between the casters and non-casters, and 4e was that. Living Forgotten Realms was a big disappointment for me, it just didn't have the same feeling as LG. I have fallen out of love of 4e over the years, but mostly due to the mistreatment it received since it was released. I still am in a weekly game, and it is fun, but it has lost its flavor with the deluge of options that aren't really options. WotC just went too far. The instability and inconsistancy of WotC is the real reason I don't enjoy 4e as much as I once did. I'm finding myself enjoying Pathfinder more and more for a fairly simple reason: its STABLE. No massive errata every few months, and the PDFs get updated! That the classes are significantly better designed IMO doesn't hurt either.

My take on 5e so far is pretty positive, and I have enjoyed the playtest overall. The adventure has no concept of balance, but it does feel more "real". I like that WotC is attempting to unite all the players it can, as that is a noble goal. As others have said, it is far too early to pass judgement, if only because the next playtest may have a radical change in any number of core features present in the first.

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Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
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Patience.  More is coming.



More is coming, but the design philosophy and core mechanics are already on display.  That's enough for me to look at it and say "this won't be for me."  You don't need to see the complete chance and community chest card list, or the rent for three houses on Marvins Gardens, to know whether you enjoy monopoly.  I didn't need to see "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" to know I wouldn't like it, the trailers were enough.  I don't need to play my way through all of "Mirror's Edge" to know that I'd find it frustrating and unfun - the basic premise of "first person precision platforming" is enough, and even if it wasn't, a few short minutes with it would fill me in.

That said, I don't see why posters who decide 5e isn't for them and they're not going to post any more need to post threads to say so.
Patience.  More is coming.



More is coming, but the design philosophy and core mechanics are already on display.  That's enough for me to look at it and say "this won't be for me." 


No, the design philosophy is not on display.  What's in the playtest packet is only a tiny fraction of what the articles say they're including, let alone the actual game itself.  To use a simple example, take the tactically-interesting fighter they've talked about numerous times, or the non-vancian core casting they said they want to implement.  Both of which are a design philosophy pretty different than going just by what's in this iteration, and both of which are coming later down the line.

Furthermore, "core mechanics" means something different than I think you think it means.  It doesn't mean the Big Four classes, and Vancian, and that sort of thing.  It does mean things like how AC is determined, how attack rolls work, how hitpoints are determined and how you get them back.  And yet even all of those are still subject to change.  They haven't finalized or settled on anything, and using this playtest as an authoritative "Well, this proves that this game won't be for me" statement isn't at all valid.


I return to this:

Patience.  More is coming.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
For once I'm going to chime in agreeing with Mand on this one.


Be patient guys, more is coming.  
Malasteen- I began this thread because I have a voice as an older gamer. I'm not the minority as you might think. I also don't want the company to wonder why many are rejecting these core principles of the game even at this stage. I feel me and others (on both sides of the issue) have voices that need to be heard, and have a right to be heard. You seem to advocate censorship as a way to make me go away. And as I said before I just want access to the past editions to play with my kids. I don't want to ruin anyones fun. If my kind are unwanted by the fanbase and the company as ner do wells for it's future success (by the way we are the reason for it's past success) why would I or gamers like me try anymore to be relevant? So far the message has been clear. Just go away and die with your old views and old editions. Alright I will, but I want to leave with the editions you want me to die with. Why is that so much to ask?
I'll wait too. I'm not that optimistic but the relatively long gap between the first and second playtest make me think that they are putting some serious brainpower at work.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/23.jpg)

Yes. We should all wait and be patient. The modules are the parts that will make 5E the way you want it.

They haven't revealed much about modules yet. And that is why everyone is freaking out. We want more information about the unknown and it scares us to be in the dark.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I'll change my mind if it needs changing in response to new revelations, but until then I plan on complaining full time about things I feel need complaining about. 
...whatever
@BrightMantle

While I have not been RPing even half as long as you have, I have been around the block a time or two. I've spent time in almost all editions of DnD and I have to say that DnD Next seems pretty close to home.

From what I can tell, they are attempting to harken back to the AD&D days. This can especially be seen with the lack of Skills and the fact that the Thief gets specific bonuses to skills.

I see DnD Next as a drastic change from 4e, but I see it as a logical progression for AD&D and 3.5. Being someone who believes that Pathfinder is superior to both 3.5 and 4e, I am extremely excited for DnD Next and to see what the company has in store for us.


I see DnD Next as a drastic change from 4e, but I see it as a logical progression for AD&D and 3.5. Being someone who believes that Pathfinder is superior to both 3.5 and 4e, I am extremely excited for DnD Next and to see what the company has in store for us.



Being someone who finds 4E (as a system) superior to both 3.x and Pathfinder I have confidence that DDN will be an improvement over the latter two. As good or better than 4E (for me) I am not sure, but I'll wait and see.

Good to see you on the field you old warhorse.

Funny saying that to someone only a year or two older than me (I'm damn near 34).

I get the problem with this "one ring" marketing ploy.

I saw the "game will remain the same" BS marketing for 4e. We all know how much it actually remained the same.

That being said we are in a different position here. With 4e you and I were at field in our own games when the battle was being fought in some far of plane of existence.

This time we are on the field and the battle has just begun.

Raise your banner, level your lance and don't retreat. The for the game you love is happening. But remember that this board isn't the main battlefront. This is a skirmish. The main battle is the surveys and direct feedback.

We need to be here if we want to see this game survive and come back to anything resembling its roots.

Our favored enemies aren't the same but our kingdoms share a border. If one falls we both fall.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

I get the problem with this "one ring" marketing ploy.


It's not a ploy.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
@Valdark and Matiez: I'm almost 37 and playing since 1989, but I'm on the 4e side of the wall.

Does that mean I should start throwing fireballs in you camp? Naaaa...

In the worst case I have a lot of 4e books.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/23.jpg)

Well the past evidence ("the game will remain the same" marketing strategy) makes that unclear.

That was my point. Hopefully it isn't a ploy, for the sake o the game and WotC. If it is you will have a bunch of dusty 5e books sitting on the shelves.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Because they can't possibly be trying to do something different than what they did before?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Well the past evidence ("the game will remain the same" marketing strategy) makes that unclear. That was my point. Hopefully it isn't a ploy, for the sake o the game and WotC. If it is you will have a bunch of dusty 5e books sitting on the shelves.



It the game remains the same what is the point of a new edition? That would really be a money grab.

So, no, obviously the game won't remain the same. The idea however is that it will recapture the spirit of previous editions for those who like that while at the same time be enjoyable for fans of the latest iteration. At least this is the plan.
I get the problem with this "one ring" marketing ploy.


It's not a ploy.

Ya right. Would you like to come over for tea and crumpets with me and the Easter bunny too? Santas bringing the Herbal tea. And when we are finished we are all going to go for a ride in the Batmobile and we get to use the rocket booster. I have dibbs on the utility belt. Get off it man. I have already been thrown away by this company in the past remember? I know how much value I hold in this market by EXPERIENCE and not theory. The 4e players are going to find that out soon too, as if they don't already say it. "Thrown under the bus" is the phrase I read that those fans post most often. This current game is so bastardized already that it has become nothing everybody likes and some of what none of us like. As I have written before I think being some of everything is leading to ammounting to all of nothing. As far as continuing to wait until the egg hatches,  this is like smelling the rot and saying "it's alright the bird might live". Meanwhile the carcus is decaying in the shell. I just don't see this  uniting us. And I am not alone.
I get the problem with this "one ring" marketing ploy.


It's not a ploy.

Ya right. Would you like to come over for tea and crumpets with me and the Easter bunny too? Santas bringing the Herbal tea. And when we are finished we are all going to go for a ride in the Batmobile and we get to use the rocket booster. I have dibbs on the utility belt. Get off it man. I have already been thrown away by this company in the past remember? I know how much value I hold in this market by EXPERIENCE and not theory. The 4e players are going to find that out soon too, as if they don't already say it. "Thrown under the bus" is the phrase I read that those fans post most often. This current game is so bastardized already that it has become nothing everybody likes and some of what none of us like. As I have written before I think being some of everything is leading to ammounting to all of nothing. As far as continuing to wait until the egg hatches,  this is like smelling the rot and saying "it's alright the bird might live". Meanwhile the carcus is decaying in the shell. I just don't see this  uniting us. And I am not alone.[/quote]

I agree with you on this as well, too many "Us vs Them" around here.
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