Conjurer's Closet and "until end of turn" ETBs.

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I built a new deck today that uses Conjurer's Closets to abuse a variety of creatures with solid ETB abilities.  One thing I need clarified, however, is what happens if I hard cast a Massacre Wurm, giving all of my opponent's creatures -2/-2 until end of turn.  Then, at the beginning of my end step, I pass him through the Closet, flickering him back into play.  Am I right in assuming that this will trigger a second, cumulative -2/-2 penalty, resulting in all of my opponent's creatures getting -4/-4?  If so, that means anything that dies as a result will go to the graveyard as usual, and their controller will pay a hefty life penalty?  It's during the cleanup step—not the beginning of my end step—that all of these effects actually wear off, right?

I really hopes this work the way I think it does.  If not, can someone please clearly explain the way end of turn effects work, and at what point I am obligated to let the step end, and stop casting instants and using abilities?  Thank you in advance to anyone who helps me out.
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
I built a new deck today that uses Conjurer's Closets to abuse a variety of creatures with solid ETB abilities.  One thing I need clarified, however, is what happens if I hard cast a Massacre Wurm, giving all of my opponent's creatures -2/-2 until end of turn.  Then, at the beginning of my end step, I pass him through the Closet, flickering him back into play.  Am I right in assuming that this will trigger a second, cumulative -2/-2 penalty, resulting in all of my opponent's creatures getting -4/-4?  If so, that means anything that dies as a result will go to the graveyard as usual, and their controller will pay a hefty life penalty?  It's during the cleanup step—not the beginning of my end step—that all of these effects actually wear off, right?

I really hopes this work the way I think it does.  If not, can someone please clearly explain the way end of turn effects work, and at what point I am obligated to let the step end, and stop casting instants and using abilities?  Thank you in advance to anyone who helps me out.

correct
I really hopes this work the way I think it does.  If not, can someone please clearly explain the way end of turn effects work, and at what point I am obligated to let the step end, and stop casting instants and using abilities?  Thank you in advance to anyone who helps me out.


A step or phase only ends, if all players pass priority in succession while the stack is empty. So you and your opponent are free to cast as many spells or activate as many abilities as you want, have some or all of them them resolve, then add more and have them resolve as well and so on. Basically, as long as a player wants to do something in a step or phase (other than untap and usually cleanup) he will get the chance.

The one tricky bit is, that if the stack is empty and the active player passes priority to check if the opponent does something, but the opponent doesn't, the step/phase ends without the active player getting another chance to do something himself in that step/phase.

This is true for all steps and phases.
Nice combo!
...resulting in all of my opponent's creatures getting -4/-4?  If so, that means anything that dies as a result will go to the graveyard as usual, and their controller will pay a hefty life penalty?  It's during the cleanup step—not the beginning of my end step—that all of these effects actually wear off, right?

Don't forget: damage dealt to creatures also lingers on them until the Cleanup Step,
so any damage dealt to opponents' creatures must be evaluated in addition to the -4/-4 combo you made
to determine which creatures die.  

Ouch!

Wizards of the Coast: NOT ANYMORE outsourced to Elbonia

Thanks, guys.  And Chaikov, I don't know if this sounds stupid, but it means a lot to have a more experienced player praise something I figured out single-handedly.  I have an entire deck designed around this concept listed in the Casual play section, if you care to offer your thoughts there.
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
it's a nice combo, it's just too slow for competitve play

it should still wreak havoc in a casual setting ;)
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This is true for all steps and phases.




Someone told me that the blocking player gets priority first during the declare blockers step.  I haven't looked it up yet, so I'm not certain if it's actually true.
no, the Active Player always gets priority first

the only exception is when the NAP casts a spell then he gets priority first
when the spell resolves the AP gets priority first again
proud member of the 2011 community team
Why?

"Creatures your opponents control get -2/-2." would last as long no longer than the permanent is in play.

What's different about "When Massacre Wurm enters the battlefield, creatures your opponents control get -2/-2 until end of turn." that makes the static part of the ability last longer than the lifespan of the object withe ability?

It's surely because the static ability is "part of" a triggered ability rather than "part of" a permanent. What I'm looking for is the rule.

(I tried to support pitiex's answer with rules right after they posted their answer, but I didn't know where to look.)
Massacre Wurm doesn't have any static abilities.

It has two triggered abilities, and enter-the-battlefield triggered ability that creates a continuous effect (-2/-2) and the creature your opponent controls dies triggered ability that creates a one-shot effect.

The continuous effect isn't creates by a static ability, so it's not linked to the massacre wurm being on the battlefield.
All Generalizations are Bad
it would last until end of turn, regardless of what happens to the Wurm (because it is a triggered ability and not a static ability from the Wurm)

compare the Wurm to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite where flickering will not do much
proud member of the 2011 community team

Why?

"Creatures your opponents control get -2/-2." would last as long no longer than the permanent is in play.

What's different about "When Massacre Wurm enters the battlefield, creatures your opponents control get -2/-2 until end of turn." that makes the static part of the ability last longer than the lifespan of the object withe ability?

It's surely because the static ability is "part of" a triggered ability rather than "part of" a permanent. What I'm looking for is the rule.

(I tried to support pitiex's answer with rules right after they posted their answer, but I didn't know where to look.)

Perhaps I am over simplifying what you're asking, but the rule I found (admittedly the number may now be outdated) is:

611.2a A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability lasts as long as stated by the spell or ability creating it (such as “until end of turn”). If no duration is stated, it lasts until the end of the game

I really must download the new version of the rules though.

My buddy has been running a deck similar to this for a couple of weeks now on MTGO.  When the deck gets going it is brutal.


He runs Skinrenders and Undying Evils also.  Last night in2HG he had a Closet and a Skinrender on the board.  Was able to cast Skinrender.  Attacked with other Skinrender and was blocked and killed, he cast Undying Evil on it, briinging it back and then again bouncing it with the closet.  Thats nine -1/-1 counters in one turn.  It was awesome.


Edit:  I know he uses the Wurm and the -2/-2 stays on until EOT no matter what happens to the worm (this is on MTGO so it enforces the rules).   And yes he often has the closet out with the Wurm and that takes it to -4/-4 for the turn if the opponent can't handle it.  


That was answered in #2, and I'm not questioning the answer. My (as of yet unanswered) question is "by what rule?".  Thanks to RootBreaker's correct, I found the answer:
611.3b The effect [from the static ability of an object] applies at all times that the permanent generating it is on the battlefield or the object generating it is in the appropriate zone.

-vs-
611.2a A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability lasts as long as stated by the spell or ability creating it (such as "until end of turn"). If no duration is stated, it lasts until the end of the game.

(Oops, LoveMonkey posted the answer while I was writing this.)
So if I played the Wurm on my turn and at some point after it resolved my opponent flashed in Snapcaster mage it goes to the yard as a SBA correct?
no
only creatures on the field as the Wurm trigger resolves get -2/-2
creatures that enter later are unaffected (because they weren't "creatures opponent controls" at that time)
proud member of the 2011 community team
The set of creatures that get -2/-2 won't change after the effect starts.
611.2c If a continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability modifies the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects, the set of objects it affects is determined when that continuous effect begins. After that point, the set won’t change. (Note that this works differently than a continuous effect from a static ability.) A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability that doesn’t modify the characteristics or change the controller of any objects modifies the rules of the game, so it can affect objects that weren’t affected when that continuous effect began.

The set of creatures that get -2/-2 won't change after the effect starts.
611.2c If a continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability modifies the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects, the set of objects it affects is determined when that continuous effect begins. After that point, the set won’t change. (Note that this works differently than a continuous effect from a static ability.) A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability that doesn’t modify the characteristics or change the controller of any objects modifies the rules of the game, so it can affect objects that weren’t affected when that continuous effect began.


wow, that's confusing!
Yeah, I feel like they could stand to improve the wording on that particular rule a bit. Fortunately, it matches the expectations of most players, so we don't need to dig that one up very often.
Yeah, I feel like they could stand to improve the wording on that particular rule a bit. Fortunately, it matches the expectations of most players, so we don't need to dig that one up very often.


I did not mean the wording; I meant the differences between continuous effects from static abilities and those from other sources.
but it makes sense
because the effect from the trigger is "hidden" it doesn't make sense to apply to new objects

but a regular static effect is always visible, so it can affect new objects


I agree that it is not 100% consistent, but it makes intuitive sense
proud member of the 2011 community team
Yeah, I feel like they could stand to improve the wording on that particular rule a bit. Fortunately, it matches the expectations of most players, so we don't need to dig that one up very often.

 
I did not mean the wording; I meant the differences between continuous effects from static abilities and those from other sources.

Really? I've never heard someone who spends as much time thinking about magic rules as you do having trouble with the difference between Overrun and Glorious Anthem before.
All Generalizations are Bad
It'd be like expecting Day of Judgment to destroy the creatures that I play this turn after it resolved.
Nobody would think that, but for some reason they think the -2/-2 trigger should apply to new creatures after it resolves.

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Hmmm... It's not that the thought hadn't already crossed my mind, but now I'm pondering the advantages of putting Skinrenders into my deck.  I hate fine tuning, though; unless your deck is an unplayable mess or it's trying to spread itself too thinly thematically, it's always a b*tch trying to figure out where to make balanced substitution.  In my deck the question is probably as simple as what's worth more to me: Righteous Blows—which will off a Mirran Crusader or Silverblade Paladin instantly—or Undying Evils.  What is more likely to pay big dividends in the long run: Stonehorn Dignitary for combat lockdown, or Skinrenders?

Hell, I was originally running a playset of Sign in Blood in this deck because I typically empty my hand quickly and stack life early in the game.  I'm still not sure I should have taken them all out.

Meh, sorry for posting this here instead of my other thread.  It's just that with 36 views and not a single direct response I'm starting to feel like posting decks in the Casual Play forum is a complete and total waste of my time.
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
while this forum is more active there aren't good deckbuilders here (no insult to anybody intended ;))

anyway, it depends on what you want to achieve
Skinrender is great removal, but a dead card if your opponent doesn't have creatures (or all his creatures are hexproof) because it kills itself
Stonehorn Dignitary keeps you alive because it stops your opponent from attacking, on the other hand he has lots of blockers in that case, so you better pack evasion (Akroma's Memorial singleton fits the bill for those cases)
Righteous Blow is just bad, especially when you are already running black and have access to the best removal
proud member of the 2011 community team
Okay, I'll admit that I've been out of the scene for the better part of a decade, but I'm surprised at how much hate Righteous Blow gets.  First, in my experience white direct damage is just plain rare, and ergo surprising.  Second, conditional though it may be, it's essentially a white Shock.  (The only reason anyone ever complained about Shock is that it followed in Lightning Bolt's footsteps.  That doesn't make it a bad card by definition unless both are simultaneously legal.)  Third, there are a fair number of nasty creatures with two toughness, and even if the spell doesn't kill them outright it does mark damage, which is cumulative throughout the turn.  Given that this spell is combat-specific I would say it has decent potential to upset a game.

Now, saying all of that doesn't in the least discount your claims that black has access to superior removal.  What it doesn't have is a one-drop spell that offs creatures with protection from black.  My wife is my casual play partner; when I'm facing her, Mirran Crusaders are a total nightmare.  Righteous Blow is a godsend in specific circumstances—but I suppose I shouldn't keep them in the main deck against other people.
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
why run Shock when you can run Doom Blade or Go for the Throat or even Tragic Slip?

also, against Mirran Crusader? Perilous Myr
solves almost all protection troubles you have, and can kill up to 3 toughness under ideal conditions
and combos with Undying Evil to do it again
proud member of the 2011 community team
Point taken.  One of the advantages of being more familiar with the current Standard card pool.  I returned to the game about six months or so before the Scars block was slated to phase out of Standard.  As a result I've tried to abstain from heavy reliance upon its cards.  I'm far less aware of what it contains than I am of Innistrad's offerings.

I suppose that small arguments against Doom Blade and Go for the Throat include that they're slightly more expensive and target-specific (but don't worry about my sanity—they factor heavily into most of my black decks).  I've had more than one Tragic Slip fail me because my opponent was smart enough not to trigger its morbidity, although it a marvelous card far more often than not.  BaibaiAvacynlol
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
it's a common, you get it for a few cents ;)
besides, when it rotates, so does the crusader
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And sadly, so will a fistful of the cards that make the deck we're talking about work in the first place.  ;  ;
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
Geth's Verdict works nicely too.

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DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013  - If you have any concerns with my conduct as a judge, feel free to submit feedback here.
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Really? I've never heard someone who spends as much time thinking about magic rules as you do having trouble with the difference between Overrun and Glorious Anthem before.

No trouble *now that I know about a difference exists*, and therein lies my point.
Geth's Verdict works nicely too.



The only problem with Geth's Verdict (although I love its synergy with Blood Artist) is that your opponent gets to choose what they sacrifice, and since my most common opponent plays a human-heavy white/red deck, Gather the Townsfolk can hose its effectiveness.
To whom it may concern: it's getting really old, being unable to see the top half of anything autocarded in the first post of each thread. Fixplz,kthx.
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