Aretopolis, Naar Isle, and the Planar Deck

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I ask the following because reading through what I think are the applicable sections of the rules hasn't helped the way it usually does:

What, if anything, would cause the counters to get removed from either Aretopolis or Naar Isle when a player planeswalks away from them?  The planar deck starts the game in the Command zone, and all face-up and face-down plane cards remain in that zone through the course of the game (901.4).  When a player planeswalks, he moves the current face-up plane to the bottom of the planar deck and moves the top card off the planar deck off the deck and turns it face-up (701.21d).  However, nothing I can find in the rules makes the planar deck a different zone than "not in the planar deck".  To me, this means the rule that says counters on an object aren't retained when it changes zones (121.2) doesn't apply.  Is "becoming a new object" (400.7, as well as 400.9 in the case of cards in the command zone turning face-up/down) sufficient to prevent the retention of counters?  If so, is this clearly and definitively stated anywhere in the rules, or does it have to be inferred/deduced from the text of 400.7?  The ruling notes for Skullbriar aren't helping me, either.

What, if anything, would restrict Aretopolis from getting a counter placed on it during the resolution of Pools of Becoming's Chaos ability?  Nothing I can find in the rules specifically forbids a counter from being placed on an object in any particular zone (rather, for certain zones, there just aren't any effects in the game that place counters on objects there).  To me, this means it does get a counter during the resolution of Pool's Chaos ability, and the player would draw a card.  What happens to that counter when it stops being revealed might not depend on the answer to the above, because it was never technically turned face-up.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool
when you planeswalk away from that plane and you put it at the bottom of the planesdeck all counters are removed

from Naar Isle:
10/1/2009 A face-up plane card that's turned face down becomes a new object with no relation to its previous existence. In particular, it loses all counters it may have had.
proud member of the 2011 community team
when you planeswalk away from that plane and you put it at the bottom of the planesdeck all counters are removed

from Naar Isle:
10/1/2009 A face-up plane card that's turned face down becomes a new object with no relation to its previous existence. In particular, it loses all counters it may have had.

D'oh!  I saw that note on the older planes I looked up, but I must have read it too fast (because I thought I already knew what it said).  Any thoughts on the second section?  Does being revealed count as being turned face-up for the purposes of these things?
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool
no, being revealed doesn't change the status of facedown or faceup
so none of the revealed planes are in plane, only their :chaos: activates because Pools of Becoming says so

Aretopolis will keep the counter facedown until it is active again, in which case the counter will fall off
this seems like a big loophole to me because now the card is effectively marked, and I hope someone disagrees with me ;)
proud member of the 2011 community team
What, if anything, would restrict Aretopolis from getting a counter placed on it during the resolution of Pools of Becoming's Chaos ability?

No counters would be put on Aretopolis, because it can not be found in the planar deck. It cannot be affected for the same reason that a card cannot be affected by an ability if that card is in a library or a player's hand when the ability resolves.

You do not draw any cards, because you use last known information to determine the number of scroll counters on it, which is zero.
What do you mean by "can not be found in the planar deck"?  If you're talking about the Pools of Becoming situation, the principle you describe is for when an object changes zones during the resolution of a spell or ability, and that's not what's happening here.  Revealing Aretopolis doesn't make it change zones, and it doesn't change its face-up/down status (for the purposes of that particular rule about when a Plane becomes a new object).
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool
I started a thread about this in the "in depth rules forum" below: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
it showed one flaw in my answer above, the triggers of the revealed planes go on the stack after Pools of Becoming is done and the revealed planes are back in the deck facedown

I argue it can still be found because the order you put them on the bottom of the planesdeck is known, but I can see the argument that it cannot be found because the card is facedown in a hidden zone

the more logical answer that it cannot be found, but it isn't 100% clear in the rules in my opinion
proud member of the 2011 community team
Per Matt Tabak's twitter:

"PoB's ability can't find Aretopolis to put a counter on it. No cards are drawn. It's a new object after being turned face down."


Not sure if the last sentence is relevant or not.  I asked him a follow up question.  My understanding is that the planes are still "face down" when they are revealed, and never stop being "face down".
he would be correct if they were actually turned face down, which they are not

keep us posted about the follow up


ok, he insists that revealing turns a card face up and then face down, which is not supported by the rules as far as I know

we'll just take that as an [O] ruling until the rules are fixed for this case ;)
proud member of the 2011 community team
he would be correct if they were actually turned face down, which they are not

keep us posted about the follow up


ok, he insists that revealing turns a card face up and then face down, which is not supported by the rules as far as I know

we'll just take that as an [O] ruling until the rules are fixed for this case ;)



That seems wrong.   Wouldn't that mean that with Oracle of Mul Daya out it would cause Aven Liberator to trigger when it's on the top of your library?

twitter.com/TabakRules/status/2253448530...

here is the tweet in question
he adds that it doesn't actually change the face-up/face-down status, but the plane is still a new object because it was turned face-up and then face-down

in any case it still feels rather unsupported by the rules
proud member of the 2011 community team
So it's not the face-up/face-down status, but it wuold seem that revealing a hidden card causes it to become a new object, according to this ruling?
Rules Nut Advisor
at least in the command zone and/or only for planes/schemes

it certainly isn't true for permanents, otherwise Morph would be broken
proud member of the 2011 community team
Weird stuff.  I agree with Enigma256 on "reveal/hide = turn face-up/down" not being supported in the current version of the rules, and I look forward to some formalized resolution for this in a future update.
I'm Mike, from The Mana Pool
well, Matt writes the rules, so if he says it doesn't work it doesn't work, no matter what the rules actually say ;)

for now it doesn't get any more formal
proud member of the 2011 community team
he insists that revealing turns a card face up and then face down, which is not supported by the rules as far as I know

That seems wrong.

Actually, I can buy that revealing turns face up since face up/face down refers to the *physical* state of the card.
110.6. A permanent’s status is its physical state. There are four status categories, each of which has two possible values: tapped/untapped, flipped/unflipped, face up/face down, and phased in/phased out. Each permanent always has one of these values for each of these categories.



Wouldn't that mean that with Oracle of Mul Daya out it would cause Aven Liberator to trigger when it's on the top of your library?

No, because of 112.6.
112.6. Abilities of an instant or sorcery spell usually function only while that object is on the stack. Abilities of all other objects usually function only while that object is on the battlefield. The exceptions are as follows:

(None of the exceptions are pertinent.)
Also, it isn't a permanent, so it can't even have statuses.
Rules Nut Advisor
Also, it isn't a permanent, so it can't even have statuses.

Good point,  I missed that.
Apparently, face up and face down game states only apply to permanents. Planes are never permanents. The rules talking about planes being face up or face down arent referring to the status, they mean the actual English meanings. So a revealed plane is turned face up, then turned face down and placed at the bottom of the deck, becoming a new object.
It seems to me the Planechase rules are severly broken for not having a separate zone for the planar deck. For example, tell me what rules removes counters from [C]Aretopolis[/C] when you planeswalk away from it... For a permenent, they would ceases to exist when the  permanent object ceases to exist due to a zone change.
It seems to me the Planechase rules are severly broken for not having a separate zone for the planar deck. For example, tell me what rules removes counters from [C]Aretopolis[/C] when you planeswalk away from it... For a permenent, they would ceases to exist when the  permanent object ceases to exist due to a zone change.

this rule

901.7a Each plane card is treated as if its text box included “When you roll {PW}, put this card on the bottom of its owner’s planar deck face down, then move the top card of your planar deck off your planar deck and turn it face up.” This is called the “planeswalking ability.” A face-up plane card that’s turned face down becomes a new object.


since it is a new object all counters fall off
proud member of the 2011 community team
It seems to me the Planechase rules are severly broken for not having a separate zone for the planar deck. For example, tell me what rules removes counters from [C]Aretopolis[/C] when you planeswalk away from it... For a permenent, they would ceases to exist when the  permanent object ceases to exist due to a zone change.

Rule 309.6 says that a plane card that is turned face down becomes a new object.  Therefore the counters will cease to exist as the old plane card object ceases to exist in the same way as when an object changes zones.
309.6. A face-up plane card that's turned face down becomes a new object.

I don't think the ruling for Aretopolis being revealed due to the Pools of Becoming trigger was ever explicitly stated:  If I reveal Aretopolis, will I draw one card or not?

Rules Advisor

since it can't be found (it becomes a new object when you put it at the bottom) you cannot put a counter on it and you draw 0 cards because of that
proud member of the 2011 community team
It seems to me the Planechase rules are severly broken for not having a separate zone for the planar deck. For example, tell me what rules removes counters from [C]Aretopolis[/C] when you planeswalk away from it... For a permenent, they would ceases to exist when the  permanent object ceases to exist due to a zone change.

this rule

901.7a Each plane card is treated as if its text box included “When you roll {PW}, put this card on the bottom of its owner’s planar deck face down, then move the top card of your planar deck off your planar deck and turn it face up.” This is called the “planeswalking ability.” A face-up plane card that’s turned face down becomes a new object.


since it is a new object all counters fall off

I looked and looked I swear!

Then I don't agree with you and believe the ruling is supported by the rules. After being turned back face down (a physical state change, whether it's called "status" or not) from being revealed, it's a new object.
yes, once I got that "face-up" and "face-down" is not a status for planecards like it is for permanents I feel like the ruling is supported by the rules
proud member of the 2011 community team
yes, once I got that "face-up" and "face-down" is not a status for planecards like it is for permanents I feel like the ruling is supported by the rules

I don't see the difference. What difference do you see?

Or are you refereing to "A face-up plane card that’s turned face down becomes a new object." makes the "status" change more like a zone change?
no, I mean planecards don't have a "face-up" or "face-down" status like permanents do, so revealing them causes them to change their "status" of being "face-up" and "face-down" and they become a new object

that would not be the case if you would reveal a face-down morphed card for example, it would stay face-down the whole time, even when revealed
proud member of the 2011 community team
no, I mean planecards don't have a "face-up" or "face-down" status like permanents do, so revealing them causes them to change their "status" of being "face-up" and "face-down" and they become a new object

that would not be the case if you would reveal a face-down morphed card for example, it would stay face-down the whole time, even when revealed

You're implying that permanents don't change status when revealed, but I haven't seen anything to support that, and the ruling mentioned earlier in the thread seems to disagree with that.

Are you saying plane cards are different because they do something extra when turned face-down? Because that's not true. Double-faced cards change characteristics when turned, and so do flip cards when flipped.

hmm, it seems I'm wrong about that as well, I can find no rules support ;)
mostly because there are no cards that let you reveal face-down cards besides Morph

however planecards are different because they become new object when they turn face-up or face-down, permanents remain the same object when that happens
proud member of the 2011 community team
Just to clarify, there is a difference between a permanent being 'face-up' or 'face-down', and a Plane card being face up or face down.  When referring to Planes (and Phenomena), face up merely refers to the english meaning of it.  It's face is where everyone can see it.  If you can see the face of the plane, it's face up.  It's considered face up when it is being revealed or when it is the active plane.  It's turned face down when being put back in the deck.  When that happens, it becomes a new object.


For permanents, 'face up' and 'face down' is a status.  Like being tapped or untapped, flipped or unflipped.  A permanent is still the same object if its status changes.  I don't believe that there is anything that can cause you to reveal a face down permanent, but if there were, it remains in the face-down status, even while being revealed.
Just to clarify, there is a difference between a permanent being 'face-up' or 'face-down', and a Plane card being face up or face down.  When referring to Planes (and Phenomena), face up merely refers to the english meaning of it.

Same goes for permanents. It's refering to the physical state of the card.
A permanent is still the same object if its status changes.

Same for plane cards. Just turning face-down has an additional effect.
I don't believe that there is anything that can cause you to reveal a face down permanent, but if there were, it remains in the face-down status, even while being revealed.

I shall repeat what I said earlier: There is no rule to support that position, and a ruling that contradicts it. If you're going to contradict, provide evidence.

Just to clarify, there is a difference between a permanent being 'face-up' or 'face-down', and a Plane card being face up or face down.  When referring to Planes (and Phenomena), face up merely refers to the english meaning of it.

Same goes for permanents. It's refering to the physical state of the card.


Permanents refer to both the physical state of the card and the game status of the card when talking about face-up face-down. Planes don't have statuses.


A permanent is still the same object if its status changes.

Same for plane cards. Just turning face-down has an additional effect.


Once again, Planes don't have a status that can change. they just have a rule saying what happens when the physical change happens.

I don't believe that there is anything that can cause you to reveal a face down permanent, but if there were, it remains in the face-down status, even while being revealed.

I shall repeat what I said earlier: There is no rule to support that position, and a ruling that contradicts it.



I have no idea what's true or relevant to this part of the argument.
Rules Nut Advisor
Permanents refer to both the physical state of the card and the game status of the card when talking about face-up face-down.

Yes, because they are the same thing.
Planes don't have statuses.

Yes, they do. The rules simply didn't give it a name, but whether a card is face-up or face-down is most definitely relevant to the game.

Once again, Planes don't have a status that can change.

Yes they do: 901.5 ... the starting player moves the top card of his or her planar deck off that planar deck and turns it face up ...

Permanents refer to both the physical state of the card and the game status of the card when talking about face-up face-down.

Yes, because they are the same thing.
Planes don't have statuses.

Yes, they do. The rules simply didn't give it a name, but whether a card is face-up or face-down is most definitely relevant to the game.



"Statuses" in the rules are very specific things that only apply to permanents. Don't make this a repeat of the "well it affects something, so therefore it muct be a target" argument. Rules say statuses apply only to permanents. Therefore planes do not have statuses.
Rules Nut Advisor
"Statuses" in the rules are very specific things that only apply to permanents.

Correct. I said as much. You're the one calling it status. I was very careful not to call it that.
"Statuses" in the rules are very specific things that only apply to permanents.

Correct. I said as much. You're the one calling it status. I was very careful not to call it that.


Then explain the part where you explicitly said that Planes had statuses?
Once again, Planes don't have a status that can change.

Yes they do: 901.5 ... the starting player moves the top card of his or her planar deck off that planar deck and turns it face up ...


That may have been a mistake, but you did say that Planes have statuses. I think we can agree to drop this as a semantics issue, though.
Rules Nut Advisor
"Statuses" in the rules are very specific things that only apply to permanents.

Correct. I said as much. You're the one calling it status. I was very careful not to call it that.


Then explain the part where you explicitly said that Planes had statuses?

Because they do. It's just not called "status".
I think we can agree to drop this as a semantics issue, though.

Sure, but not for that reason. 99% of rules questions are semantic issues.

110.6. A permanent's status is its physical state. There are four status categories, each of which has two possible values: tapped/untapped, flipped/unflipped, face up/face down, and phased in/phased out. Each permanent always has one of these values for each of these categories.


110.6a. Status is not a characteristic, though it may affect a permanent's characteristics.

110.6b. Permanents enter the battlefield untapped, unflipped, face up, and phased in unless a spell or ability says otherwise.

110.6c. A permanent retains its status until a spell, ability, or turn-based action changes it, even if that status is not relevant to it. 

110.6d. Only permanents have status. Cards not on the battlefield do not. Although an exiled card may be face down, this has no correlation to the face-down status of a permanent. Similarly, cards not on the battlefield are neither tapped nor untapped, regardless of their physical state.



The rules say what things do.  The rules do not list everything that doesn't happen.  Nowhere is there a rule that says that revealing a face-down permanent changes it's status.  110.6c clearly states that a permanent retains its status unless a spell, ability, or turn-based action changes it.



If revealing a permanent changed any any of these statuses, there would be a rule stating so.  I don't agree that the fact the rules don't explicitly say something doesn't happen is grounds to argue that it does happen.


Matt Tabak's earlier ruling on twitter was specifically referring to the english meaning of the words face-up and face-down, and had nothing to do with the Magic meaning regarding the status of permanents.



Quotes:


" PoB's ability can't find Aretopolis to put a counter on it. No cards are drawn. It's a new object after being turned face down. "


"By definition, if you reveal something, it's (briefly) face up. Note that this is different from face up the status. "


" In this sense, "face up" just has it's normal English definition, roughly "the face is visible." "



He seems to be making a clear distinction that revealing something makes it face up in the literal English meaning, but not in the status-meaning.


The rules say what things do.  The rules do not list everything that doesn't happen.  Nowhere is there a rule that says that revealing a face-down permanent changes it's status.

Yes, technically, the rules don't allow you to look at the other side of a revealed card -- they just tell you to show the card -- but I don't accept your premise that revealing a face-down permanent wouldn't allow you to turn it over.
110.6c clearly states that a permanent retains its status unless a spell, ability, or turn-based action changes it.

Yes, and Reveal is always one of those.
I don't agree that the fact the rules don't explicitly say something doesn't happen is grounds to argue that it does happen.

No one said anything of the kind. If you read this board, you'd probably know that I always support my claims with rule quotations, probably more so than anyone else. (You've already quoted the relevant ones for me here.)
Matt Tabak's earlier ruling on twitter was specifically referring to the english meaning of the words face-up and face-down, and had nothing to do with the Magic meaning regarding the status of permanents.

Impossible. Magic's definition of face-up is the same as English's (the physical orientation of an object).
If revealing a permanent changed any any of these statuses, there would be a rule stating so.

There is. The action necessitates the physical state change.

Anyway, this is all moot until an ability allows one to peek at morphed cards. This is my last post in this thread.