"Gray Areas"

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Hey all,

We had a bit of an argument whilst playing a sporty game 'o magic tonight.  Here's the argument:

I had an Etched Champion (2/2 Artifact Soldier with Metalcraft-Gains protection from all colors while I control 3 or more artifacts) on the field, with some other creatures as well.  A friend plays "Day of Judgement" (destroy all creatures, white instant spell).  We resolved the destruction, but here's where I am fuzzy on this particular ruling:

On the offical rules, it states the normal 4 things (can't remember them off-hand), but since Day of Judgement is (technically speaking) targeting ALL creatures on the board simultaneously, why WOULDN'T "Protection from all colors" on Etched Champion work?  He is technically receiving the "destroy" command from a white source, and with protection from said source, shouldn't he remain on the field?  My reasoning behind this that since you are targeting all the creatures on the table at once (similar to an effect destroying all enchantments), you are "targeting" them all at once.  Hence, you are still "targeting" the Etched Champion, aren't you?  So, under the 4 rules stated above, the Champion should be protected, should he not?  That's the "gray area" I am referring to.

Also, what about "global" effect abilities from cards like "Midnight Banshee" that give -1/-1 counters to all nonblack creatures?  Would that still affect the Champion (or someone like him) who has the protection from that color?  Would it affect him, or would he have protection from that effect?

I would like to know, because it seems like this rule has most of us confused.  I certainly am, because it seems like if you are trying to "destroy" or "put -1/-1" counters on a creature that has protection from a certain color, it wouldn't happen.

I know about the "target" rules, and I would like you to read my reasoning a bit more.  Also, if you need clarification on my reasoning, I would be happy to return to the forum and post back.

Thanks!!
Only things that say they target do target. Day of Judgment (a sorcery, by the way, not an instant) does not, so it doesn't target. It is as simple as that. The rules even say, that objects can be affected without being targeted.

As for what protection from X does:
Can't be Damaged by X
Can't be Enchanted/Equipped/Fortified by X
Can't be Blocked by X
Can't be Targeted by X

So to determine, if protection helps against something, just check those 4 points. If none applies, protection doesn't help.
It just doesn't seem that way, because you are targeting.  It may not say it on the card, but you are, if you think about it...

It just doesn't seem "right" to me.  I don't know how to explain it, and it is almost 2 am here.
No matter how you feel about it, the rules are very clear on the subject of targeting:

114.9. Spells and abilities can affect objects and players they don’t target. In general, those objects and players aren’t chosen until the spell or ability resolves. See rule 608, "Resolving Spells and Abilities."

114.9a Just because an object or player is being affected by a spell or ability doesn’t make that object or player a target of that spell or ability. Unless that object or player is identified by the word "target" in the text of that spell or ability, or the rule for that keyword ability, it’s not a target.

114.9b In particular, the word "you" in an object’s text doesn’t indicate a target.
Day of Judgment (DoJ) doesn't target anything, because it doesn't say it targets (and doesn't have a keyword with rules text that says it targets, like Auras or the Equip ability).  Cards do what they say they do, no more and no less.  DoJ doesn't say it targets anything, so it doesn't.  If it doesn't say it on the card, or in the rules, then it isn't happening.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
In addition, if you had a White Knight, it would still get affected by Midnight Banshee's ability because the Banshee is not dealing damage and it's not targeting.  But if you blocked the Banshee, it would not deal damage to the Knight because of the protection. Grim Affliction is a case where I can't target the Knight, but because the proliferate doesn't target or do damage, your Knight would get another counter if one was already there.



Edit: fixed the post because enigma pointed out a HUGE error on my part.  Not enough coffee yet.... ughTongue Out 
Cemetery Gate is black, so Midnight Banshee ignores it

go with White Knight
proud member of the 2011 community team
Day of Judgment doesn't target.

Murder targets.


You aren't targeting with day of judgement, so protection from all colors doesn't get around it. There's nothing that says Protection from X stops any 'destroy' effects.
It just doesn't seem that way, because you are targeting.  It may not say it on the card, but you are, if you think about it...

"Targeted" does not mean "affected".
It just doesn't seem that way, because you are targeting.  It may not say it on the card, but you are, if you think about it...

It just doesn't seem "right" to me.  I don't know how to explain it, and it is almost 2 am here.



You are NOT targeting if the word target is not on the card. The only time you target is if the word TARGET appears on the card. For every instance of the word target as part of a resolving spell or ability, there are that many required and declared targets. If you are ever unsure of whether or not something is targeting, just look for the word target. Things that can't be targeted will get hit by global effects that do not have the word target.
You are NOT targeting if the word target is not on the card. The only time you target is if the word TARGET appears on the card.


Or in the rules for a particular spell or ability, like Auras and the Equip ability. I know it's been said before, but just need to make that clear.
Rules Nut Advisor
You are NOT targeting if the word target is not on the card. The only time you target is if the word TARGET appears on the card.


Or in the rules for a particular spell or ability, like Auras and the Equip ability. I know it's been said before, but just need to make that clear.



Ah yes. Though equip does actually say it in its reminder text, usually. Auras tend to leave that part out :/.
there is even a rule spelling it out


114.9a Just because an object or player is being affected by a spell or ability doesn’t make that object or player a target of that spell or ability. Unless that object or player is identified by the word “target” in the text of that spell or ability, or the rule for that keyword ability, it’s not a target.


114.9b In particular, the word “you” in an object’s text doesn’t indicate a target.

proud member of the 2011 community team
So, define why "ALL" isn't a "target" ability...

Because, you are targeting ALL creatures with "destroy" on the card.  They are being targeted, regardless.  It is also coming from a colored source as well.  I understand the concept of "global effects," but this seems like protection is moot unless you are "targeted," which you are still.  Again, I'm not disputing the official rules, I'm just pointing out that you are technically "targeting" creatures with the card, because "ALL" is a target.
if it doesn't say "target" it doesn't target
simple as that

don't argue Magic rules with english


(just wait till you learn the difference between "attacks" and "attacking", that is another fine example where english is simply not enough for the magic rules ;))
proud member of the 2011 community team
So, define why "ALL" isn't a "target" ability...



Because the rulebook says so.

Target in magic has a very speicific meaning. Because many things rely on targetting, (Shroud, protection, and many abilities) they regulate what targets very strictly.

In general, anything that says Target targets, anything that doens't doesn't.

Day of Judgement doesn't say target, so it doesn't target. Those are the rules of the game.
… and then, the squirrels came.
So, define why "ALL" isn't a "target" ability...

Because, you are targeting ALL creatures with "destroy" on the card.  They are being targeted, regardless.  It is also coming from a colored source as well.  I understand the concept of "global effects," but this seems like protection is moot unless you are "targeted," which you are still.  Again, I'm not disputing the official rules, I'm just pointing out that you are technically "targeting" creatures with the card, because "ALL" is a target.



This is really not the proper forum for that arguement.  This forum is concerned with giving proper and correct answers to your questions, and if needed show support as to why it's ruled that way.

If you want to discuss the symantics of it and why the rule is the way it is, that should be discussed in the rules theory and templating forum.

DCI Level 2 Judge

Rockford, Illinois

Lets say you have a special suit that makes you invisible. You are standing in a small room. Someone throws a grenade into the room, and it explodes right next to you. Do you seriously think you will be immune to the shrapnel flying around because the person who threw the grenade couldnt see you?

~ Tim 
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
So, define why "ALL" isn't a "target" ability...



It's been quoted to you multiple times, but I figure it's worth repeating until you understand that this exact rule covers precisely why it isn't a target ability:

114.9a Just because an object or player is being affected by a spell or ability doesn’t make that object or player a target of that spell or ability. Unless that object or player is identified by the word “target” in the text of that spell or ability, or the rule for that keyword ability, it’s not a target.

 

Bold emphasis mine.  So, check the wording on Day of Judgment again:

Destroy all creatures.



Using the above logic, how can you dispute what you're being told?  If the text doesn't say target, it doesn't target.  Day of Judgment doesn't say target, so it doesn't target.  Isn't that explanation precise enough?  You're not going to get an answer that's any more clear than the official source being parsed via logic.

Edit - In addition:

114.1a An instant or sorcery spell is targeted if its spell ability identifies something it will affect by
using the phrase “target [something],” where the “something” is a phrase that describes an
object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. (If an
activated or triggered ability of an instant or sorcery uses the word target, that ability is targeted,
but the spell is not.)



 
This may muddy things more than it helps, but ... ignoring the simple fact that DoJ doesn't target because it doesn't say it targets ...

When you target something, you are choosing what it affects.  You have no choice in what DoJ affects; it destroys all creatures indiscriminately.  Thus, it does not target.  You have no choice in how the spell operates; you nuke everybody.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
It just doesn't seem that way, because you are targeting.  It may not say it on the card, but you are, if you think about it...

It just doesn't seem "right" to me.  I don't know how to explain it, and it is almost 2 am here.



You are NOT targeting if the word target is not on the card. The only time you target is if the word TARGET appears on the card. For every instance of the word target as part of a resolving spell or ability, there are that many required and declared targets. If you are ever unsure of whether or not something is targeting, just look for the word target. Things that can't be targeted will get hit by global effects that do not have the word target.

On the card ...or in the definition of an ability the object has, or if it's in the rules (aura on the stack).

Again, I'm not disputing the official rules



"Technically", you are. And "technically", you're wrong. You're in for a nasty surprise when your Etched Champion gets returned to your hand by Dissipation Field ^__^

Sean Stackhouse Level Two Judge (Yay!) Maine

Actually, SeaDogFan, that Dissipation Field is coming from a blue source.  So, because Etched Champion is being targeted from a source (return "permanent" to opponent's hand), it shouldn't affect it.  I think that it would fall under the "protection" rules because you are "targeting" the permanent that damages you.  It would be the same thing with the older "floating shield" card (enchantment, choose a color: creature floating shield enchants gains protection from chosen color.  Sac floating shield: target creature gains protection from chosen color). 

Take a look back at the targeting rules.

D
E
B
T

You are targeting it to return it to my hand.  Because that comes from a colored source, Etched Champion has protection from blue as long as I have metalcraft.  This is the "gray area" I am bringing to your attention.  You are "targeting" my "permanent" with a colored source, hence it wouldn't affect the Champion.  Now, under the rules (listed above), it states that it has to be targeted specifically.  "Target" must be listed.  Now, since you are targeting "permanents" specifically under the card, shouldn't that be granted under the "protection" rules?  Because, you are targeting him with a blue source.  It's just confusing because the way the rules are listed, and the way the cards are worded.

At LMTRK:
Say I have body armor under that invisible cloak that protects me from grenades.  If it should go off near me (and kill everything in the room) and I have taken no damage, then I survive.  Protection should mean "source" instead of "target.  Hence, if you have a bomb in a car, and I am wearing bomb protection gear standing next to the car with 5 people that don't, the bomb goes off, kills the people NEXT to me, and I survive.  Hence, Protection from WHITE should indicate that since it comes from a WHITE source (or any colored source from Etched Champion's POV) it doesn't affect it AT ALL.

But hey, I don't design the rules.  I just look on in disbelief as they come out with really strangely worded cards that somehow "target" my card without "targeting" it.
Dissipation Field does not target, protection does not interact with it (neither does Hexproof or Shroud, of course)

again, if it doesn't use the word "target" it does not target
simple as that
proud member of the 2011 community team
Target has a specific defined rules meaning in the game.

You can say in English that Dissipation Field "targets" the Etched Champion that damaged the Field's controller, but for the rules of the game that is irrelevant.

In the rules, Dissipation Field does not target Etched Champion because the ability does not use the word target at all in its ability text therefore Etched Champion is bounced to its owner's hand. You can dispute this assertion all you want, from a defined rules perspective Field does not target the Champion and its protection from the Field has absolutely no bearing at all.

If you want to play that Dissipation Field targets the Champion, feel free to change the rules to suit your desires, but then you aren't playing Magic the Gathering anymore, you're playing a game that's remarkably similar, but it's not Magic. Anyone else that plays by the actual rules will not interpret the interaction the same way that you do and if you persist in playing that way, don't bother asking us for an Official Rules interpretation because you aren't playing the same game as us.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

This is the "gray area" I am bringing to your attention.  You are "targeting" my "permanent" with a colored source, hence it wouldn't affect the Champion.  Now, under the rules (listed above), it states that it has to be targeted specifically.  "Target" must be listed.  Now, since you are targeting "permanents" specifically under the card, shouldn't that be granted under the "protection" rules?  Because, you are targeting him with a blue source.  It's just confusing because the way the rules are listed, and the way the cards are worded.

But hey, I don't design the rules.  I just look on in disbelief as they come out with really strangely worded cards that somehow "target" my card without "targeting" it.

There is no grey area. The rules are specific and direct. What you interpret as a "target" ability is just a logical misinterpretation of the rules. It has happened to lots of people before, but the rules do not have a grey area, people just understand them incorrectly. The crads must be able to do things without targeting, and the templates for those cards are well designed now.

  

"Target" doesnt mean affect, it means something more like "aim at". Wearing camouflage helps against snipers who are trying to aim at you, but doesnt stop you from being hit by an explosion that happens to go off next to you (the individual bits of shrapnel arent trying to aim at anything, so being harder to see wont stop them).

If it still doesnt make sense, then Im giving up, sorry.

~ Tim 
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
Ok.  You all win.  It doesn't target.  But, I did just target you all with an apology.
Ok.  You all win.  It doesn't target.  But, I did just target you all with an apology.

It resolves!

@russwaddel08, all of the above posters are correct.  You are confusing he game's rules with "your" understanding of the English language.  he game is very clear and concise on the subject, it even has a
rule(which has been quoted multiple times already).

You are he only one that sees it the way you do.  If you try to play that way in tournaments your in for a big suprise.   

Magic is an extremely complex game, with many subtleties.  If another poster agreed with you at any time you could then be skeptical.  In his case you are flat out wrong.  Accept it, learn it and move on. 
STEP 1: Find your cousin STEP 2: Get your cousin in the cannon STEP: 3 Find another cousin
LMTRK-

Apparently you didn't read my post carefully enough.  If I am wearing a bomb suit (say it gives me "protection from black") and you and I are standing next to a car wired with a bomb (bomb (black source)=destroy all people within 10 feet).  The bomb goes off, but I "live" and you "die."  Why?  Because the bomb has to target us both with it's shrapnel.  Because I am wearing armor that "protects" me from the bomb's explosion.

Hence, because I have protection from a color, I shouldn't be "targeted" by ANYTHING from a colored source, including but not limited to Day of Judgement, Dissipation Field, Midnight Banshee, or ANYTHING.  Otherwise, what's the point of wearing armor if it didn't protect you from things like that?  Now, I could see that a nuclear blast in the same area might cook me in my armor and kill me, but this is a "MAGICal" game.  Shouldn't "protection" mean that the blast goes around me, and doesn't harm me (like Globe of Invulnerability in Dungeons and Dragons)?  That's all I have been saying. 

But again, I conceed the point.  In the future, I will have a Darksteel Forge, which will render this argument moot, as ALL of my artifacts will be indestructible, and thus immune to Day of Judgement. 
The only gray area in Magic lies half way between and !
STEP 1: Find your cousin STEP 2: Get your cousin in the cannon STEP: 3 Find another cousin
In the future, I will have a Darksteel Forge, which will render this argument moot, as ALL of my artifacts will be indestructible, and thus immune to Day of Judgement. 


but not Black Sun's Zenith 
The only gray area in Magic lies half way between and !

that would be
proud member of the 2011 community team
At RadMan323:

You would be correct, and that would be about the only way to kill it!  But, since the guy in question was using a White Deck (hence, Day of Judgement), he would have to figure out a way to actually damage Etched Champion indrectly (such as Black Sun's Zenith).
The only gray area in Magic lies half way between and !

that would be


I live on the Oregon coast, all the water is gray! 

STEP 1: Find your cousin STEP 2: Get your cousin in the cannon STEP: 3 Find another cousin
The only gray area in Magic lies half way between and !

that would be



Blue, Red and Green.

Because I am wearing armor that "protects" me from the bomb's explosion.

Hence, because I have protection from a color, I shouldn't be "targeted" by ANYTHING from a colored source, including but not limited to Day of Judgement, Dissipation Field, Midnight Banshee, or ANYTHING.  Otherwise, what's the point of wearing armor if it didn't protect you from things like that?

Protection is never absolute. Your armour won't protect you from a missile or from missing your wife. Even Super Mario's Invincibility Star didn't protect him from falling down pits.

Same here. Protection protects from DEBT. It's not total immunity.

What's the point? Well, you tell me. What's the point of wearing a bullet-proof vest that doesn't protect you from missiles?

Anyway, this forum is for rules questions. There's another forum for discussing rule wordings. Please continue there. (Or not at all. This is a rather dead horse unless you have something cronstructive to add.)

At RadMan323:

You would be correct, and that would be about the only way to kill it!  But, since the guy in question was using a White Deck (hence, Day of Judgement), he would have to figure out a way to actually damage Etched Champion indrectly (such as Black Sun's Zenith).


Black Sun's Zenith doesnt do any damage. 

~ Tim 
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
At LMTRK:

Now who is mincing words?  It is putting -1/-1 counters on Etched Champion.  That is defined as "indirect" damage.  You are still killing him, just not "targeting" him.
Because I am wearing armor that "protects" me from the bomb's explosion.

Hence, because I have protection from a color, I shouldn't be "targeted" by ANYTHING from a colored source, including but not limited to Day of Judgement, Dissipation Field, Midnight Banshee, or ANYTHING.  Otherwise, what's the point of wearing armor if it didn't protect you from things like that?

Protection is never absolute. Your armour won't protect you from a missile or from missing your wife. Even Super Mario's Invincibility Star didn't protect him from falling down pits.

Same here. Protection protects from DEBT. It's not total immunity.

What's the point? Well, you tell me. What's the point of wearing a bullet-proof vest that doesn't protect you from missiles?

Anyway, this forum is for rules questions. There's another forum for discussing rule wordings. Please continue there. (Or not at all. This is a rather dead horse unless you have something cronstructive to add.)




Again, I am not wearing "body amor."  I am wearing armor specifically made to stop black SOURCES from damaging me.  My point was, what is the point of having "protection from colors" if a COLORED source is killing me?  Shouldn't it be all encompassing?  Otherwise, it's just "selective" protection, which is what DEBT is doing.