Initiative or Party Movement

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I'm working on a bard|warlord/war chanter/warmaster and after I foolishly realized that Reorient the Axis is based on Intelligence and not Charisma, decided to look at other methods of mass movement enabling available to the two classes.  The selection is pretty meager.
Originally, I chose combat leader as my hybrid-warlord's leadership specialty, but now I'm wondering how important the extra 4-8 initiative is to my party, if I were to switch to battlefront leader for battlefront shift, and it's successive feats.
Basically, it boils down to this:  Move myself or one ally in heroic, two in paragon, whole party in epic when I win initiative (which is likely)  --  or  --  +2 initiative in heroic, +5-6 in paragon, +8 in epic for whole party.
I went VERY enabling-crazy with this build, and as such, I typically have several multiple-ally attacks for my action points, which will hopefully be used on round one.

Another option, I guess, is to MC Artificer and pick up slick concoction at level 10, but I was kinda hoping to save my MC for cleric to use a specific holy symbol.

Any thoughts on this?  Any leader players find movement to be more important than initiative?  Or does initiative trump all for a enabling-nova-centric build?
1) initiative trumps all

2) movement is nice, buffs in my opinion better. Many strikers have their own movement options.
There's a few themes that give you movement power, Halastar's Clone is a bit redundant on the +Init bonus so I wouldn't take that one, but I've enjoyed the Noble theme's power on my arti|cleric.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
War Chanter means Cha/Con, so you could go Tiefling and Secrets of Belial to pick up Slick Concoction without using your MC.
If you don't have the initiative to beat the party (or failing that, beat the monsters and let the party delay for you), then all the movement enabling in the world is worthless, because you'll be left behind; the party will already have moved without you.

So yeah, Initiative > Movement enabling.  But both together, if you can swing them, are outstanding.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Pump what you can afford into inititive. Monster inititive scales well while players usually have to burn feats to keep up.

The Wood Elf feature Sense Threat would be great for what youre looking for...but you have to give up Elven Accuracy.
And pray tell, da_duke, where is a bard|warlord/war chanter/warmaster supposed to get the ability scores to pump Wisdom from ?
And pray tell, da_duke, where is a bard|warlord/war chanter/warmaster supposed to get the ability scores to pump Wisdom from ?



Not in stats, but in feats. Train in perception first. Then look at the feats that have some sort of perception bonus. I think that all of the feats that raise perception also support something else. Although, he might only need one feat...

Mark of Detection allows you to make two rolls for perception and then choose the higher one...a sort of Avenger of Initative if you will.
I've seen leaders with good initiative (for themselves) and movement, and the party hated it because their inits still sucked.  The warlord would hand them over to the enemy and they'd all get beaten on before their turn, basically just saving the enemy a move action.  There's still some tactical benefit to ally placement, but it really shines when those allies have good init as well.
lmao that's so funny Scatterbrained, I just busted out laughing at the mental image...  They should totally do an entry of that on a dnd web comic or something.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Pump what you can afford into inititive. Monster inititive scales well while players usually have to burn feats to keep up.

The Wood Elf feature Sense Threat would be great for what youre looking for...but you have to give up Elven Accuracy.



This is a terrible idea for a Warchanter.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I've seen leaders with good initiative (for themselves) and movement, and the party hated it because their inits still sucked.  The warlord would hand them over to the enemy and they'd all get beaten on before their turn, basically just saving the enemy a move action.  There's still some tactical benefit to ally placement, but it really shines when those allies have good init as well.



Realistically, if your strikers don't have good init, they're probably doing it wrong. Most strikers either come with the option of Dex prime/secondary (blackguards and warlocks are the only ones that do neither that I can think of out-of-hand), or have the option of snagging an alternate init feat (battlewise, Imprious Majesty, etc). If they dont, there's always the go-to of improved init. There are about a gazillion items that give init bonuses as well, in addition to themes, feats, items, backrounds, and countless other ways of rerolling init.

Either way, it's the party member's individual responsiblility to have a good init modifier, not the leader's (unless they're a warlord or an elf.) and if they get put into good position by the leader, and then get brutally murdered by the enemy because they didn't juice init enough, that's really their own fault. This isn't to say that the leader might have wanted to hold off on the positioning power, knowing that his allies rolled crap init that encounter, but the core problem is still on the head of the other players, not the leader.  
I've seen leaders with good initiative (for themselves) and movement, and the party hated it because their inits still sucked.  The warlord would hand them over to the enemy and they'd all get beaten on before their turn, basically just saving the enemy a move action.  There's still some tactical benefit to ally placement, but it really shines when those allies have good init as well.



Realistically, if your strikers don't have good init, they're probably doing it wrong. Most strikers either come with the option of Dex prime/secondary (blackguards and warlocks are the only ones that do neither that I can think of out-of-hand), or have the option of snagging an alternate init feat (battlewise, Imprious Majesty, etc). If they dont, there's always the go-to of improved init. There are about a gazillion items that give init bonuses as well, in addition to themes, feats, items, backrounds, and countless other ways of rerolling init.

Either way, it's the party member's individual responsiblility to have a good init modifier, not the leader's (unless they're a warlord or an elf.) and if they get put into good position by the leader, and then get brutally murdered by the enemy because they didn't juice init enough, that's really their own fault. This isn't to say that the leader might have wanted to hold off on the positioning power, knowing that his allies rolled crap init that encounter, but the core problem is still on the head of the other players, not the leader.  



Should I refute this or does someone else want to?
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
You can.

But i agree that init > movement.
1/2 a turn > 1move action.

Also the fact that warlords can get superior init for the whole group saves 4 feats. Even Dex based char's will enjoy it, since Dex is not enough by itself.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Maybe they've never met the various and sundry switches?
Switches do both, in addition to extra attacks.

They basicly give 1-3 turns.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Also the fact that warlords can get superior init for the whole group saves 4 feats. Even Dex based char's will enjoy it, since Dex is not enough by itself.




I totally agree that it's awesome to have a warlord who'se optimized their init to give everyone a nice big bonus. That being said, if the players roll terrible, and can't reroll it, and have no way of giving themselves a way around a trashy init, that's their fault, not the warlords. With how ludicrously important winning init is after heroic teir, and how easy it is to do, one can't simply blame the leader.

If the leader does what leaders do on turn 1 (grant you some kind of dramatic advantage normally, like a big damage buff, a big debuff for enemies, superior positioning, etc), and the rest of the party's init sucks so bad that they can't take advantage of that big boost, that is entirely the fault of those players, not the leader. Yes, bad luck happens, but so do init rerolls. 

---

Please tell me zelink, why would any striker want to have bad initiative at level 11+? Focusing fire before the enemies can crap all over you with encounter and recharge powers is an important part of the game, as I'm sure you know. I can't think of any good reason for strikers to have low init unless it was tactically advantageous in a very specific circumstance to do so (at which point people with high init can just delay, and be better off in every other encounter they face.) My point stands; if you're playing a striker and have garbage init, you're probably doing it wrong. 

You don't try for bad init. But Spending the resources necessary to go first isn't feasible on a striker chassis. It simply isn't. 1 Is common, 2 is rare, and anything more is unfeasible. Besides, every other role wants to go before you.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
And that's exactly what I'm trying to do here:  Emulate the "Switch" builds.  I was trying to rebuild the Tenacious Troubador from a few years back with some updates that help to get allies into position in addition to unleashing hell on the enemy from turn one. 

I'll post the full build further down, but I'm heavily committed to Half-Elf for Vers. Dilettante and as a prerequisite for Sidhe Lord.  The goal of the build was to use Inspire by Example as often as possible.  To that end, I've picked up The Vistani feats at epic (for two AP's after an extended rest), MC Cleric (For Symbol of Victory @ paragon and BCL @ epic), and Sidhe Lord for Sidhe Bargain to keep the Action Points flowing as well as possible.  From levels 13-15, you can basically force a crit due to DfTS and a hefty attack bonus from your opening round's action point.  From 16 on, my hope was to be able to use 2 AP an encounter for any number of combats.  Action Point generation would basically look like this:
Level 16 combat 1:  Start with one, Gain one on forced Crit.
Level 16 combat 2:  Start with zero, Gain one from Bargain; Gain one on forced Crit.
Level 16 combat 3:  Start with one, Gain one on forced Crit.
Level 16 combat 4:  Start with zero, Gain one from Bargain; Gain one on forced Crit.
Etc., Etc.

At epic it would get easier, since you start with two.  You don't need to resort to stealing allies AP's until at least combat 3. 

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Speed Metal Half-Elf Bard Warlord2, level 30
Half-Elf, Bard|Warlord, War Chanter, Warmaster
Hybrid Bard: Hybrid Bard Will
Warlord Leadership: Battlefront Leader (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlord: Hybrid Warlord Will
Hybrid Talent: Bardic Virtue
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Valor
Half-Elf Power Selection: Dilettante

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 26, Dex 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 26.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 16.


AC: 44 Fort: 45 Reflex: 40 Will: 44
HP: 183 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +21, Diplomacy +30, Endurance +28, Perception +22, Heal +22

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Bluff +24, Dungeoneering +18, History +17, Insight +20, Intimidate +24, Nature +18, Religion +17, Stealth +17, Streetwise +24, Thievery +17, Athletics +16

FEATS
Level 1: Melee Training (Charisma)
Level 2: Hybrid Talent
Level 4: Combat Virtuoso
Level 6: Battle Song Expertise
Level 8: Strength of Valor (retrained to Versatile Master at Level 11)
Level 10: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 23)
Level 11: Improved Battlefront Shift (retrained to Shift the Field at Level 21)
Level 12: Initiate of the Faith (retrained to Multiclass Mastery at Level 22)
Level 14: Deft Blade
Level 16: Improved Defenses
Level 18: Fight On
Level 20: Vistani Heritage
Level 21: Vistani Foresight
Multiclass Mastery: Divine Healer
Multiclass Mastery: Novice Power
Level 22: Call to Glory
Level 24: Supreme Inspiration
Level 26: Martial Mastery
Level 28: Epic Reflexes

POWERS
Dilettante: Magic Weapon
Hybrid at-will 1: Direct the Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Staggering Note
Hybrid encounter 1: Vengeance is Mine
Hybrid daily 1: Arrow of Warning
Hybrid utility 2: Cunning Adjustment (retrained to Sidhe Bargain at Level 10)
Hybrid encounter 3: Echoing Weapon
Hybrid daily 5: Scent of Victory
Hybrid utility 6: Revitalizing Incantation
Hybrid encounter 7: Prescient Warning
Hybrid daily 9: Wail of Anguish
Hybrid utility 10: Tactical Orders
Hybrid encounter 13: Death from Two Sides (replaces Echoing Weapon)
Hybrid daily 15: War Master's Assault (replaces Arrow of Warning)
Hybrid utility 16: Mantle of Unity
Hybrid encounter 17: Hail of Steel (replaces Vengeance is Mine)
Hybrid daily 19: Band of Fellows (replaces Scent of Victory)
Hybrid utility 22: Climactic Chord
Hybrid encounter 23: Rhythm of Disorientation (replaces Prescient Warning)
Hybrid daily 25: Frenzied Rhythm (replaces Wail of Anguish)
Hybrid encounter 27: Surge of Valor (replaces Rhythm of Disorientation)
Hybrid daily 29: Deific Rallying (replaces Band of Fellows)

ITEMS
Hero's Elemental Drake Armor +6, Echoing Songblade Rapier +6, Lilting Songblade Dagger +4 (4), Bracers of Mental Might (heroic tier), Boots of Quickness (epic tier), Circlet of Arkhosia (epic tier), Timeless Locket +6, Shadow Band, Ring of Free Time (epic tier), Belt of Vim (epic tier), Symbol of Victory +2, Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Hero's Gauntlets (paragon tier), Gloves of the Healer (epic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======



The main idea is to use Magic Weapon on the same turn that you spend an AP, for a massive attack and damage bonus that'll carry through to your next round for another big multiple ally Hail of Steel, or whatever party enabling power you decide to use.

If anyone sees any glaring issues, or things I've overlooked, please let me know.  Also, I'm notorious for loading characters down in the CB with items that don't really represent actual character wealth.  I like to shop I guess.

This character was originally built with Combat Leader instead of of Battlefront Leader, was it a mistake to switch?


Thanks for your guys help.
From 16 on, my hope was to be able to use 2 AP an encounter for any number of combats.  Action Point generation would basically look like this:
Level 16 combat 1:  Start with one, Gain one on forced Crit.
Level 16 combat 2:  Start with zero, Gain one from Bargain; Gain one on forced Crit.
Level 16 combat 3:  Start with one, Gain one on forced Crit.
Level 16 combat 4:  Start with zero, Gain one from Bargain; Gain one on forced Crit.
Etc., Etc.



The Symbol of Victory power is daily and gives the AP to the person who got the crit, which is your ally for DfTS. So, unless I have missed something, your AP generation is not what you think it will be.

There's a reasonable chance to crit once out of 4 battles.

But yea, DfTS won't give you the AP. Though your ally may very well appreciate one.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Oversight on my part.  I guess you could always use Sidhe bargain to steal that action point.Money Mouth  And technically, you can use Sidhe Bargain out of combat too, right?

I knew I had scrapped that idea at some point.  That's probably the reason I did so.

Well, I guess two AP's per battle past 16 is a little more complicated than I thought.

Any suggestions?

I could grab Avenging Spirit, and then wait for a striker to die in every combat.  ;)

Or Avenging Spirit + 1 revenant player.  I like that idea.

Avenging Spirit:  When an ally of your level or higher is reduced to 0 hp or fewer, you gain an action point that you must use before the end of your next turn or the action point is lost.  You must see or hear the ally when he or she is reduced to 0 hp or fewer to gain this feat's benefit.
All of that AP generation is completely unnecessary optimization especially since you're adding Dilettante MW. It's great for TheoryOp to figure out how many APs you can generate, but in the end, even as a War Chanter, stuff like Sidhe Lord isn't gold. But hey, since you're looking, Heroic Interjection.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
At epic however, APs mean more Hail of Steel, at which point generating as many as possible IS really freaking good.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Not with Str Dumped they don't, unless you're packing multiple BoMMs or DOAFs and lots of luck.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Come now, Combat Virtuoso my dear sir!
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Which has no effect on a Hybrid. Hybrid being required for Combat Leader.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Missed the Hybrid bit. I assumed this build was going about doing this the intelligent way
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
What does "the intelligent way" mean?

Also, I can't believe I missed Heroic Interjection.  Good addition if the build continues on in it's current direction.

EDIT:  I think, losing the symbol of victory and MC cleric is the smart way to go.  This lets me grab the partywide initiative boost back, as well as pick up Slick Concoction, for both movement and initiative, without the multiple AP abuse.  I'll post the rebuild shortly for people to hack at.
It's a (hopefully) well known fact by now that Lazy Warlord powers are nearly always inferior to ones that involve an attack roll, the closest is Death From Two Sides, which is a middle-ground since it involves you attacking, but does not require Str if you have a MBA from another source. You can slightly get around this with Bracers of Mental Might, however that only works 1/enc and you can't use IAoPs (which makes up the damage lost from Combat Virtuoso)

Valor Bard MC Warlord Power Swap for Hail of Steel and then Combat Virtuoso so you're attacking with Cha on all powers gained from feats (basically). Now you can use the multitude of Encounter Power recharges to recycle Hail of Steel including the lovely Martial Mastery feat, and since you can spend multiple APs per encounter, you get the Epic Chain of move RoTA/Slick Concoction/Whatever. minor Magic Weapon, standard Hail of Steel; next round standard Magic Weapon AP Hail of Steel; next round standard Magic Weapon AP Hail of Steel.

Bards lose a good deal through Hybriding, all you really gain from Hybrid Warlord is Combat Leader and the ability to make Heroic a little easier for a Valor Bard (questionable, since your feat tax is higher and Lazy Daily powers are crap), once you hit Paragon, Valor is well enough off on it's Attack powers with a single Power swap
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Either way, it's the party member's individual responsiblility to have a good init modifier, not the leader's (unless they're a warlord or an elf.) and if they get put into good position by the leader, and then get brutally murdered by the enemy because they didn't juice init enough, that's really their own fault. This isn't to say that the leader might have wanted to hold off on the positioning power, knowing that his allies rolled crap init that encounter, but the core problem is still on the head of the other players, not the leader.  

It's a team game.  It may make you feel better to say it was the other guy's fault that you TPK'ed, but it's still a TPK and you're dead too.

In other words, work with your party rather than blaming them for not being up to your standards.  Especially in parties with varying levels of optimization.  Personally, with most classes I loathe wasting a precious low-level feat on init boosting because d20+4 is still swingy as hell, but that's just me.
My LFR Warlord is level 20 and her Initiative can only really be overturned by the Wizard.  If we get into a Surprise round (and we are the ones with surprise), she can move the entire party into position at the bad guys so their surprise round action can be "I use my high-damage encounter power" instead of, "I charge." or "I move." 

Also, it is a team game.  Definitely.  I agree 100%.  Make sure, though, that the "team" includes at least one defender or another leader.  A party of 4 strikers and a leader does not do so well (even if someone in CharOp says the math should work to your favor having four strikers.  It doesn't.  I know.  My LFR Warlord died with a table setup like this.) 
Why yes, Anecdotal evidence is ALWAYS correct  
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Why yes, Anecdotal evidence is ALWAYS correct  

lol. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

From my anecdotical point of view, there are plenty of tough strikers around, and my warlord has been in a party with nothing but strikers as well and it was complete overkill on our part. I suppose it kind of depends on whether their damage output is high enough to support it and if they are smart enough to have at least one feat or power that either makes them tougher or adds control effects to their attacks.

Speaking of warlords, are you going to continue updating the warlord's handbook, Zelink? I'm kind of curious for your opinion on the higher level powers other than hail of steel
Sorry Zelink, the correct reply was "Surprise exists in LFR?"

In the entirety of Paragon (not counting BIs) there are 3 surprise rounds available to the PCs, if your DM has given you more than that, he's cheating in your favor.

Which isn't to say that the Leader going first, buffing, and then catapulting the party isn't 100% a good tactic to have available. I'm not entirely certain who is arguing which side, since I really don't feel like reading a bad tactical argument, but the idea that this tactic isn't a good idea because "if the enemies go between you and the striker, they can pound the striker into the ground" is utterly ludicrous. Don't play stupidly. Tactical decisions (ie. the job of the leader using the movement powers) can't be described in absolutes because not every combat is the same, at AL 21 if you go at 45 and the nearest ally is 35, chances are some enemies are going between, don't just launch the Striker adjacent to 2 enemies, save your RoTA or Concoction, or Whatever for later in the fight (probably, no absolutes!). Then again, at Paragon/Epic, a PC ought to be able to take a full round of being focused by a group of Standards, statistically speaking anyway since 3 successful hits will KO nearly any striker.

tl;dr - Create characters on the assumption that you'll get to be awesome more often than not, don't plan for failure, just be prepared for it.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Ok, so after a few days of playing around on the CB, I've got a pretty clear picture of what a Hybrid Bard|Warlord looks like compared to the straight Bard.  Both are pretty powerful, but I think the lazy warlord hybrid still brings more power than the bard can muster.  The hybrid has mass enabling, party movement, and amazing overkill buffing as well as increasing party initiative.  The straight bard misses out on the initiative increase, but does just as well on the other ends. 

I think in epic tier, the straight bard would have alot more going for it; with a Magic Weapon -> AP -> Hail of Steel -> | Magic Weapon -> AP -> Hail of Steel thing going on. 

I finally decided that AP generation is kinda tough to do (probably by design) and I should just nab AP's from a friendly player, out of combat if possible.  I'm not sure if all players would consider this a worthy trade, but I think if I were playing my defender, I'd give up my AP for the group to have a Beatdown Party every combat.

Anyways, here are the two builds I've been toying with over the last few days.  Pick them apart if you have the inclination.  Let me know if things are way out of order, or if I've made any bad selections.

Bard W/ MC Warlord + Artificer
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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Half Elf Bard of War, level 30
Half-Elf, Bard, War Chanter, Warmaster
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Valor
Signs of Influence: Ritual Beneficiary
Signs of Influence: Welcome Guest
Signs of Influence: Demand Audience
Signs of Influence: Attract Attendants
Half-Elf Power Selection: Dilettante
Noble Bred for War Benefit: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Background: Noble Bred for War (Noble Bred for War Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 26, Dex 13, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 26.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 16, Dex 11, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 43 Fort: 42 Reflex: 44 Will: 43
HP: 183 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +22, Bluff +28, Diplomacy +31, Intimidate +28, Streetwise +28

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +16, Dungeoneering +17, Endurance +23, Heal +17, History +18, Insight +19, Nature +17, Perception +17, Religion +18, Stealth +16, Thievery +16, Athletics +15

FEATS
Bard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Battle Song Expertise
Level 2: Combat Virtuoso
Level 4: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 21)
Level 6: Resourceful Leader
Level 8: Student of Artifice
Level 10: Acolyte Power
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Novice Power
Level 14: Deft Blade
Level 16: Adept Power
Level 18: Improved Defenses
Level 20: Vistani Heritage
Level 21: Vistani Foresight
Level 22: Martial Mastery
Level 24: Call to Glory
Level 26: Epic Reflexes
Level 28: Action Surge
Level 30: Supreme Majesty

POWERS
Bard at-will 1: War Song Strike
Bard at-will 1: Staggering Note
Dilettante: Magic Weapon
Bard encounter 1: Shout of Triumph
Bard daily 1: Arrow of Warning
Bard utility 2: Concerted Effort (retrained to Sidhe Bargain at Level 11)
Bard encounter 3: Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade
Bard daily 5: Song of Discord
Bard utility 6: Revitalizing Incantation
Bard encounter 7: Prescient Warning
Bard daily 9: Wail of Anguish
Bard utility 10: Mantle of Unity (retrained to Slick Concoction at Acolyte Power)
Bard encounter 13: Harmony of the Two (retrained to Death from Two Sides at Novice Power) (replaces Shout of Triumph)
Bard daily 15: Whispers of the Dream King (retrained to War Master's Assault at Adept Power) (replaces Arrow of Warning)
Bard utility 16: Heroic Interjection
Bard encounter 17: Word of Vulnerability (retrained to Hail of Steel at Novice Power) (replaces Prescient Warning)
Bard daily 19: Increasing the Tempo (replaces Song of Discord)
Bard utility 22: Climactic Chord
Bard encounter 23: Rhythm of Disorientation (replaces Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade)
Bard daily 25: Frenzied Rhythm (replaces Wail of Anguish)
Bard encounter 27: Surge of Valor (replaces Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade)
Bard daily 29: Shockwave Strike (replaces Whispers of the Dream King)

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Lilting Songblade Rapier +6, Hero's Templar Mail Armor +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Boots of Quickness (epic tier), Gloves of the Healer (epic tier), Timeless Locket +6, Shield of Fellowship Light Shield (paragon tier), Shared Valor Templar Mail Armor +6, Circlet of Arkhosia (epic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======



Bard|Warlord MC Artificer
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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Speed Metal Half-Elf Bard Warlord, level 30
Half-Elf, Bard|Warlord, War Chanter, Warmaster
Hybrid Bard: Hybrid Bard Will
Warlord Leadership: Combat Leader (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlord: Hybrid Warlord Will
Hybrid Talent: Bardic Virtue
Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Valor
Half-Elf Power Selection: Dilettante
Quickened Spellcasting: Magic Weapon

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 26, Dex 12, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 26.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 16.


AC: 43 Fort: 42 Reflex: 43 Will: 45
HP: 183 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +22, Diplomacy +30, Endurance +27, Perception +21

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +16, Bluff +24, Dungeoneering +17, Heal +17, History +18, Insight +19, Intimidate +24, Nature +17, Religion +18, Stealth +16, Streetwise +24, Thievery +16, Athletics +15

FEATS
Level 1: Melee Training (Charisma)
Level 2: Hybrid Talent
Level 4: Adept Dilettante
Level 6: Battle Song Expertise
Level 8: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 21)
Level 10: Acolyte Power (retrained to Multiclass Mastery at Level 22)
Level 11: Combat Commander
Level 12: Versatile Master
Level 14: Fight On
Level 16: Superior Will
Level 18: Improved Defenses
Level 20: Vistani Heritage
Level 21: Vistani Foresight
Multiclass Mastery: Student of Artifice
Multiclass Mastery: Acolyte Power
Level 22: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 24: Call to Glory
Level 26: Supreme Inspiration
Level 28: Epic Reflexes

POWERS
Dilettante: Magic Weapon
Hybrid at-will 1: Direct the Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Staggering Note
Hybrid encounter 1: Vengeance is Mine
Hybrid daily 1: Arrow of Warning
Hybrid utility 2: Encouraging Boost (retrained to Sidhe Bargain at Level 16)
Hybrid encounter 3: Echoing Weapon
Hybrid daily 5: Scent of Victory
Hybrid utility 6: Revitalizing Incantation
Hybrid encounter 7: Prescient Warning
Hybrid daily 9: Wail of Anguish
Hybrid utility 10: Tactical Orders (retrained to Slick Concoction at Acolyte Power)
Hybrid encounter 13: Death from Two Sides (replaces Echoing Weapon)
Hybrid daily 15: War Master's Assault (replaces Arrow of Warning)
Hybrid utility 16: Heroic Interjection
Hybrid encounter 17: Hail of Steel (replaces Vengeance is Mine)
Hybrid daily 19: Band of Fellows (replaces Scent of Victory)
Hybrid utility 22: Climactic Chord
Hybrid daily 25: Frenzied Rhythm (replaces Wail of Anguish)
Hybrid encounter 27: Surge of Valor (replaces Death from Two Sides)
Hybrid daily 29: Break it Up (replaces Band of Fellows)

ITEMS
Bracers of Mental Might (heroic tier), Boots of Quickness (epic tier), Circlet of Arkhosia (epic tier), Timeless Locket +6, Gloves of the Healer (epic tier), Shared Valor Templar Mail Armor +6, Solitaire (Violet) (epic tier), Lilting Songblade Rapier +6
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Am I way off base here?  It really seems to me that the hybrid does more for the team than the straight bard.  I'm really not trying to be dense Zathris and Zelink.  I do understand that strength warlords are a cut above lazylords, but in this circumstance I think the "lazy" hybrid just does more.
It does Init more but Nova less. If you're looking at level 30 it's going to be fairly indistinguishable (actually, the strait Bard should have Valorous Charge from Cleric at that point)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Hybrid loses out on Valorous charge at 27, and BCL. to say nothing of other tasty bits too.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Is it the fact that Valorous Charge lets allies charge that gives it the edge over Surge of Valor, or the defensive boost?  Surge of Valor is definitely the more offensively bent pick between the two.
+Con to defenses? For the entire party? And everyone gets to attack? As an encounter power? That is amazing. And if you can't see that...
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
No, I definitely understand that the whole group gets to attack as an encounter power.  It's the Cleric version of Hail of Steel Cool --  I was comparing it to Surge of Valor, which is a very similar bard E27.  I'll duplicate the powers here for comparison:

Valorous Charge:   Standard; Close Burst 5
Target:  You and each ally in burst
Effect:  You and each ally in burst can charge or make a basic attack as a free action.  Until the end of your next turn, each target gains a power bonus to AC equal to your Constitution modifier (+8).

Surge of Valor:  Standard; Melee
Target: One Creature
Attack:  Charisma vs. AC
Hit:  2[W] + Charisma modifier (+8) damage, and each ally within 10 squares of you can shift 2 and make a melee basic attack as a free action.
   Virtue of Valor:  The allies gain a bonus to the attack roll and the damage roll equal to 1 + your Constitution modifier (+8).

Now, I realize that Surge of Valor requires a hit, and that's one strike against it, but the range is doubled in addition to granting a pretty massive bonus to hit and damage.  Is the defensive bonus enough to mitigate that?

From reading your last post, it seems as if you hadn't remembered what Surge of Valor did.  Or, maybe Valorous Charge is really that much better and I am being dense.  If that is the case, I apologize.  I'll be honest though, I don't see a huge disparity in power level between them, and it might be due to a complete lack of epic play experience.  But I'd prefer if you pulled it back a little Zelink; I'm fairly smart and prefer to keep things as civil as possible.