Stand And Bang: Multiattack Barbarians

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I will not fail nor falter, I shall succeed
My perception is altered, I do believe
Faith is so strong now nothing shall bar my way
Firm conviction is no fiction
This is my day - The Shamen, Move Any Mountain

You know how the usual spiel on Barbarian optimization goes. 'Get a gouge', they say. 'Charge package', they say. 'Zoom around bashing heads', they say. But you know what? There's more to barbarians than just charging. Much, much more. In fact, I believe charging is the sucker's bet. A properly built barbarian can do some wonderful work using multiattacks, you just need to go beyond the handbook's sky blues and look hard at the full powerlist. The purpose of this build is to take a Barbarian chassis and take the multiattacking as far as it can go, while still having a very well-rounded and strong character, without even relying on charge support beyond a Horned Helm and Badge of the Berserker. For this reason, I am going to do the unthinkable: I am going to make a Barbarian who uses Wisdom as his secondary. Just to prove the point. High damage? We have this. Reliability? You betcha. Good defenses? Son, this ain't TheoryOp. Ability to shrug off status effects like they were nothing? Step right in...

NOTE 1: Because of how awful Barbarian Level 1 encounter powers are and how terrible their dailies are as a whole, this build hybridizes with Fighter to get around them and get a decentish power early on. I should note that literally every defender except maybe Paladin has considerable synergy with the Barbarian's Strikery focus. The obvious choices are Warden and Fighter, but Swordmages and Battleminds are good too. Note that, depending on how you read Rending Strike, it might work as a multiattack, making this step unnecessary. Ask your DM.

NOTE 2: Unless I explicitly say so, do not Rage. Raging is for losers. Not even charging barbarians want to rage, because most Rages are awful. The mechanic of wasting a turn for a crappy buff is unbelievably terrible, and whoever came up with it should be assaulted by rabid monkeys. Rages worth using in spite of costing you a turn will be clearly marked as such.

Encounter Powers
Your BnBs and where most of your power lies, of course. Pick well, because without the right powers, Stand and Bang is a flop.

Level 1: Take Hack and Hew. Really any choice is alright here, Hack and Hew is just handy to have. Note: If Rending Strike counts as a multiattack, pick that. period.

Level 3: Finally in business. Thundering Howl is your power of choice. If you're DEX focused and have the right weapon, obviously go for Rain of Blows instead. You officially Have A Nova. Remember that Thundering Howl actually hits multiple targets in a Close Blast area...as a melee attack. Yes, really. It's weird, but it means all your mods apply to a big bunch of enemies.

Level 7: Take whatever power you didn't take at level 3. Resist the lure of immediate actions, they're less useful to you than multis.

Level 13: Storm of Blows. 'Nuff said. Replace your level 1 power.

Level 17: Harrying Assault, or Stone-Splitting Roar. Either will work. Alternatively, if you like crowd control, Bash and Pummel. Replace whichever power provides less damage rolls.

Level 23: Take one of the powers you didn't take at 17. Replace your other lowbie power, unless of course it's a triple-hitting Rain of Blows. Then stick with what you have.

Level 27: Hurricane of Blades. Enjoy your capstone.


Daily Powers
The main reason to hybridize, honestly. Man, Rage powers are awful. Now let's go over your choices, right quick...

Level 1: Villain's Menace or Driving Attack. Gigantic power boost to take down the enemy team's Most Wanted, or a bigass burst of damage that will leave your target bleeding. Your choice.

Level 5: Swap your level 1 power with Bedeviling Assault. The reasons for taking this power and not Rain of Steel will become clear down the line. For Rages, pick...ugh, Skull Taker's Rage or Macetail Rage. They all suck, don't use them until you're down to at-wills anyway.

Level 9: Jackal Strike or, believe it or not, Rage of the Death Spirit. This is one of the very, very few Rage powers which are worthwhile. +2 unconditional bonus to attack rolls doesn't grow on treees, y'know. Weakening a target is also pretty nifty, since you probably want to bust this out against solos and elites anyway.

Level 15: Sudden Opportunity. If you really want a stancelike power, Dust Storm Assault. Replace your level 1 power if you picked up Rage of the Death Spirit before, otherwise replace your level 9 trick.

Level 19: Rock Tree Rage. The first rage that is truly amazing. This baby should generate extra attacks by the boatload. Replace whatever Rage you had before.

Level 25: Strike of the Watchful Guard. Like another Rage that doesn't suck, except Fightery! Replace your final Heroic tier power.

Level 29: World Serpent's Rage. Ridiculous, ridiculous power. Open that big fight with it and you will not regret...and neither will your enemy live to do so.


Utility Powers
And here's where the Stand and Bang shines. Barbarians have some pretty out of this world utilities. Let's step in and take a look.

Level 2: Savage Growl is the kind of power most Strikers get a slightly better version of...twenty levels down the line. As a daily (see: that Ranger U22 that gives WIS to damage). And it even helps defend! Don't worry about the damage - nine times out of ten, your enemy will not live to regret it if you use it properly. Remember to key it off the first hit of your multiattacks so it will trigger on the second!

Level 6: Battlefury Stance for the absolute hilarity that is adding +2/tier damage to your rolls. The latter power is why you pass up on stances, as a note - you want to be in it as often as possible, which means you're not actually comparing daily stances to not having a stance, but rather to gaining a permanent damage bonus.

Level 10: Your Will score used to be good before, but now, it's ironclad. Surge of Fury says hi, and also says 'screw you' to the most potent debuffs in the game.

Level 16: Insightful Riposte if you can manage it (hint hint, use a background). Else, pick one of the myriad Fighter healing powers to cover yourself.

Level 22: Strength of Enduring Pain. At this point, ongoing damage is dime a dozen...which means, gigantic buffs to your nova sequence are dime a dozen too. If you Skill Power'd Insightful Riposte before, pick whatever power tickles your fancy, as they are all mostly irrelevant to your main purpose anyway.


Feats
The make-or-break of any build. Let's see what you should take. No annotations here, they should be mostly self-explanatory with two exceptions. This list assumes Human. Kick everything up a level and consider racial feats for nonhuman races.

Level 1: Divine Healer (Swap for BCL)
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
Level 2: Hybrid Talent (Fighter Weapon Talent)/Expertise
Level 4: Other feat above
Level 6: Weapon Focus/Silvery Glow
Level 8: Superior Will
Level 10: Headsman's Chop/Wintertouched
Level 11: Lasting Frost/Improved Defenses/Marked Scourge/Reserve Maneuver
Level 12: Marked Scourge/Wary Fighter
Level 14: Whichever you didn't take above
Level 16: Skill Power (Insightful Riposte)/Fighter Weapon Specialization
Level 18: Pinning Challenge/Reserve Maneuver
Level 20: World Serpent's Grasp
Level 21: Martial Mastery
Level 22: Allied Opportunity (True Defender in party only)
Level 24: Epic Resurgence
Level 26: Slashing Storm
Level 28: Strength Through Challenge (only if you picked up a multimarking power with your U22)
Level 30: Superior Initiative/Triumphant Attack


PPs and Equipment
Since these two are inextricably linked, might as well put them together. Short of it: You want either Winterfury and Battlecrazed+Bloodfury Gauntlet Axe, or Morninglord and Radiant Weapon + Pelor's Boon. Those two are the dominant choices by far, put simply. Take the appropriate packages for each setup and you will be very well off. Additionally, if you want extra damage and don't have two Bloodfury Gauntlet Axes on you, consider the feat Hurl Weapon plus a Prime Shot Gauntlet Axe. Hey, extra damage is extra damage, man.

Important note: Regardless of PP, take Bloodiron Armor. It compensates for Battlefury Stance against your main target, making your life that much easier.


Theme
A Winterfury is going to want Ironwrought. A Morninglord is going to want Lycanthrope for Claw Gloves. Just remember you're kind of strapped for minor actions and you should be OK.


---

Variants:

Barbarian|Swordmage, by Zelink.

---

That should just about cover all the highlights. Questions? Comments? Suggestions?
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
This should really cover Hybrids too, since Hybrid Barbs > Barbs.

Only My Opinion however 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
This should really cover Hybrids too, since Hybrid Barbs > Barbs.

Only My Opinion however 



It does cover hybrids a bunch...well, at least one hybrid. I actually have a Warden build set up too, that is even more bulky, but I wanted to start with a single build to prove that yes, a barbarian can sit there and unleash attacks while hanging with the best. If people are willing to prep builds I'd be happy to include them so as to give everybody an idea of what you can do with a Barbarian.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Barbarian|SM

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 30
Genasi, Barbarian|Swordmage, Sword of Assault, Radiant One
Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Assault
Hybrid Talent: Barbarian Armored Agility
Elemental Manifestation: Stormsoul
Quickened Spellcasting: Greenflame Blade
Background: Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 26, Con 13, Dex 12, Int 26, Wis 15, Cha 10.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 8.

AC: 48 Fort: 48 Reflex: 45 Will: 43
HP: 215 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 53

TRAINED SKILLS
History +30, Athletics +29, Endurance +24, Arcana +30

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Bluff +17, Diplomacy +17, Dungeoneering +19, Heal +19, Insight +19, Intimidate +17, Nature +21, Perception +19, Religion +25, Stealth +17, Streetwise +17, Thievery +17

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
Level 4: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise
Level 6: Improved Defenses
Level 8: Silvery Glow
Level 10: Wintertouched
Level 11: Shocking Flame
Level 12: Lasting Frost
Level 14: Student of Artifice
Level 16: Aegis Accuracy (retrained to Novice Power at Level 21)
Level 18: Reserve Maneuver
Level 20: Double Aegis (retrained to Total Aegis at Level 22)
Level 21: Quickened Spellcasting
Level 22: Epic Will
Level 24: Epic Resurgence
Level 26: Superior Will
Level 28: Primal Resurgence
Level 30: Rapid Aegis Reaction

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Greenflame Blade
Hybrid at-will 1: Howling Strike
Reserve Maneuver: Dual Lightning Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Lightning Clash
Hybrid daily 1: Burning Blade
Hybrid utility 2: Savage Growl
Hybrid encounter 3: Thundering Howl
Hybrid daily 5: Rage of the Crimson Hurricane
Hybrid utility 6: Armathor's Step
Hybrid encounter 7: Curtain of Steel
Hybrid daily 9: Rage of the Death Spirit
Hybrid utility 10: Surge of Fury
Hybrid encounter 13: Storm of Blades (replaces Curtain of Steel)
Hybrid daily 15: Rubicant's Assault (replaces Rage of the Crimson Hurricane)
Hybrid utility 16: Borrowed Confidence
Hybrid encounter 17: Stone-Splitting Roar (replaces Thundering Howl)
Hybrid daily 19: Rock Tree Rage (replaces Rubicant's Assault)
Hybrid utility 22: Giant's Might
Hybrid encounter 23: Lightning Bolt Charge (retrained to Prismatic Strike at Novice Power) (replaces Lightning Clash)
Hybrid daily 25: Quicksilver Blade (replaces Rage of the Death Spirit)
Hybrid encounter 27: Hurricane of Blades (replaces Stone-Splitting Roar)
Hybrid daily 29: Astral Thunder Blade (replaces Quicksilver Blade)

ITEMS
Boots of the Mighty Charge (heroic tier), Rain of Hammers Ki Focus +1, Ioun's Revelation (level 13), Voidhide of Dark Deeds +6, Elven Chain Shirt (paragon tier), Horned Helm (epic tier), Cloak of Translocation +6, Gloves of Ice (epic tier), Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Diamond Cincture (paragon tier), Firewind Blade Fullblade +6, Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (epic tier), Symbol of Victory +2, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Corellon's Boon, Frost Whetstones
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Note, this isn't perfect as I'm currently attempting to find SOME way to fit in Prismatic Strike legally, but I'm pretty sure as it stands, its currently illegal
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Advice on at-will selection? Howling Strike cuz it adds extra damage dice for free. And then... I thought about Reaping Strike for full Str mod miss damage.
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.
One thing they talk about here in Char Op, you never want to optimize around a miss unless it does something really cool or is effective.  Like hammer rhythm and brutal barrage.  You take con damage if you hit or con damage if you miss.
Advice on at-will selection? Howling Strike cuz it adds extra damage dice for free. And then... I thought about Reaping Strike for full Str mod miss damage.



What advice do you need? Unless you're doing zone abuse, you will never use anything but Howling Strike. I mean it here - any other at-will means you straight up wasted your turn and should have Full Defense'd.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Is there any at will you would suggest(to go with howling strike that is)?  And would an execution axe be good or is it mainly fullblade only?
Footwork Lure or Brash Strike I guess? It doesn't matter, honestly. I don't know how to put this guys, but in twenty levels of playing a Stand and Bang Warden, there has literally been no stiuation in which Howling Strike wasn't just better. Your other at-will is of absolutely no consequence.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Maybe cleave for minion popping?(Just a WAG)
/shrug

Seems good enough to me.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
How are you gaining proficiency in the Gauntlet Axe for the Winterfury option?

Not sure this is actually doing more damage then a charger can, absent DPR/KPR calcs.
How are you gaining proficiency in the Gauntlet Axe for the Winterfury option?

Not sure this is actually doing more damage then a charger can, absent DPR/KPR calcs.



to be honest, I don't think the goal here is to do more damage per se.  More along the lines of just showing that it's possible to do comparable damage without resorting to the charge kit.  Though I still find it too bad that the barbarian isn't capable of doing this kind of thing on it's own and has to rely on a hybrid fighter / warden / etc to even try to pull it off.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

How are you gaining proficiency in the Gauntlet Axe for the Winterfury option?

Not sure this is actually doing more damage then a charger can, absent DPR/KPR calcs.



to be honest, I don't think the goal here is to do more damage per se.  More along the lines of just showing that it's possible to do comparable damage without resorting to the charge kit.  Though I still find it too bad that the barbarian isn't capable of doing this kind of thing on it's own and has to rely on a hybrid fighter / warden / etc to even try to pull it off.



He doesn't. Here's the list of what the barb loses reliably from not being a Fighter:

A) Battlefury Stance.
B) Fighter Weapon Specialization
C) Marked Scourge
D) Slashing Storm

So yeah, you lose seven damage at maximum level and two shots of WIS. Whoop-dee-doo. It's a loss, but hardly a significant one.

EDIT: @Alcestis: feat shuffling, sorry. There's so many choices available I kinda forgot to list them all.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
I'd argue that you also lose out on all the fighter powers that you take in order not to take the crappier barbarian powers and rages.  You end up using powers that are just not good.  You lose on the feat support, the weapon support etc.. Anyway the point is that barbarian alone is crappy unless you go for charge support, which you yourself say in your introduction.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

What weapon support? What powers? >_>

Something I should point out: just because I used fighter powers for padding, the encounter powers of the barb are not weak. Curtain of Steel is very good, and between Storm of Blades, Stonesplitting Roar, and Thundering Howl you have a full suite of multiattacks, one of them a triple-hitter. And it's patently obvious that my build uses no fighter-specific weapon support, on purpose - this was a proof of concept about how much heavy blades rock, not just the barbarian. The straight barb is not crappy at stand-and-banging. He's just not optimal, which is an entirely different story. Don't judge a class by it being optimal, judge it by its being GOOD.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
The point isn't that a Barbarian sucks, but simply that it reliably gains more than it loses from Hybriding. And thoughts on the |SM ARm?
 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Looks good to me. I'll stick it as a link in the first post.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).

NOTE 2: Unless I explicitly say so, do not Rage. Raging is for losers. Not even charging barbarians want to rage, because most Rages are awful. The mechanic of wasting a turn for a crappy buff is unbelievably terrible, and whoever came up with it should be assaulted by rabid monkeys. Rages worth using in spite of costing you a turn will be clearly marked as such.



Is that an advice especially made up for the hybrid? I agree that the multiattack encounter powers are far superior to most rages. Since you can't just take multiattack powers you'll eventually have to use at-wills or weaker encounter powers. And compared to those the better rage entry attacks are stronger, except maybe for charge optimized Howling Strikes. So I really can't see how you're losing a turn.

A pattern of

turn 1: move to the enemy, rage
turn 2, 3: use your multiattack powers on the most viable target
turn 4 ff: use your remaining encounter powers and at-wills to clean up the table

should be very viable. You have to delay your nova by one turn, but since you'll be more efficient from turn 2 on, the payoff should be more than make up for that.

Other than that, you can still rage after novaing.
No, this is flat-out general Barbarian advice that me and Lordduskblade are in agreement on. Dailies that you cannot bust out in Turn 1 (or at best, offturn 1/2) to great effect are a waste of a standard action you could spend multiattacking. Never, ever, ever sacrifice a turn to rage unless your enemy outclasses you so massively that you need any buff you can get. If you can't see how 'hit twice' totally thrashes 'hit once', I can't help you make a good barb. 'Nova on turn 1' is a CharOp axiom for really damn good reason.

PS: And you do realize your final point is 'oh yeah, if they suck so bad why not use them after the fight's been decided by the nova', yes?
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
If allowed, take a berserker daily at level 1. There is a 4[W] there that I think is tastier than Driving attack.
At level 1? Sure. By level 6 though I'd rather have Driving Attack. Them mods, man.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Stupid question here but when you take Divine Healer is there a way in the CB to switch it over to BCL or do you have to do it manually?
Manually, 'cause the CB is awful.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
was there ever official word that you can swap for BCL this way or is it the agreed function that the forum has come to accept ?
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

It's probably official you should ask your DM.
My advice is to constantly argue for its use by RAW. It's probably not intended and is definitely over powered, but it won't get changed unless WotC sees people doing it (part of the reason why KAM took so long to get nerfed, if people don't do it, it's not a problem)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Haha Zathris

@ezrider23

The reason I asked is because for a very long time the debate raged on the forum over if it was RAW or not to MC cleric for healer's lore then swap for BCL.  I remember when most forum heavy weights were saying it was not legal by RAW.  I guess I missed the winning argument ?  I wonder who managed it. :p 
 
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

For WIS-heavy hybrids Son Of Mercy PP + Vicious Advantage feat should be a better choice than Winter Fury PP + Wintertouched feat. For the nova, you can combine Lawbreaker's Doom with Savage Growl, after that you'll have to use a Fighter Power every now and than to mark, but the damage boost during the nova should be significant.
Haha Zathris

@ezrider23

The reason I asked is because for a very long time the debate raged on the forum over if it was RAW or not to MC cleric for healer's lore then swap for BCL.  I remember when most forum heavy weights were saying it was not legal by RAW.  I guess I missed the winning argument ?  I wonder who managed it. :p 
 



It's much easier to convince yourself that it's legal when it really would be just so darn good for that one character you're building.

For WIS-heavy hybrids Son Of Mercy PP + Vicious Advantage feat should be a better choice than Winter Fury PP + Wintertouched feat. For the nova, you can combine Lawbreaker's Doom with Savage Growl, after that you'll have to use a Fighter Power every now and than to mark, but the damage boost during the nova should be significant.



+WIS damage +5 will never beat +WIS damage +10, nor match +14 damage +3d6. Trust me on this, I played a SoM variant before I went to the Morninglord. There's absolutely no comparison.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Haha Zathris

@ezrider23

The reason I asked is because for a very long time the debate raged on the forum over if it was RAW or not to MC cleric for healer's lore then swap for BCL.  I remember when most forum heavy weights were saying it was not legal by RAW.  I guess I missed the winning argument ?  I wonder who managed it. :p 
 

There was really never a RAW debate, there was a RAI debate.
Haha Zathris

@ezrider23

The reason I asked is because for a very long time the debate raged on the forum over if it was RAW or not to MC cleric for healer's lore then swap for BCL.  I remember when most forum heavy weights were saying it was not legal by RAW.  I guess I missed the winning argument ?  I wonder who managed it. :p 
 

There was really never a RAW debate, there was a RAI debate.



oh was that it then ?
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Haha Zathris

@ezrider23

The reason I asked is because for a very long time the debate raged on the forum over if it was RAW or not to MC cleric for healer's lore then swap for BCL.  I remember when most forum heavy weights were saying it was not legal by RAW.  I guess I missed the winning argument ?  I wonder who managed it. :p 
 


I usually try to stay out of those debates. I would say RAW it would appear legal but definitely not RAI. It is way overpowered if you could actually swap BCL for Healer's lore. Hopefully down the road there will be clarification through an errata or FAQ of some kind.

I do all my building through the CB and i know that makes me a **** but it just makes my life easier and i've enjoyed everyone of my PC's. If i can't swap in the CB then i personally feel somewhat it was not meant to be. Probably not the opinion of the forum but just the way i feel.
you know I can see what you mean when it comes to the CB, however there's been too many instances of the CB just being silly.  The official CB will never and should never be considered as a rules source for anyone or anything.  It's just not reliable.  I'm not sure if you remember this but the CB originally allowed for the swap to be made, while the forums were debating over if it was actually possible or not, now the CB does not allow it and it's agreed on the forums that it's legal.  Go figure right ?
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Arguments about the legality of swapping for BCL aside (I'm of the opinion it's legal, and my Handbooks reflect it), I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Armisael for putting his thoughts into writing, and to prod him to calculate some numbers so I can get a good handle of the capabilities of the build.
you know I can see what you mean when it comes to the CB, however there's been too many instances of the CB just being silly.  The official CB will never and should never be considered as a rules source for anyone or anything.  It's just not reliable.  I'm not sure if you remember this but the CB originally allowed for the swap to be made, while the forums were debating over if it was actually possible or not, now the CB does not allow it and it's agreed on the forums that it's legal.  Go figure right ?


I do not remember that but i also wasn't building PC's using that feat so never ran across it. I also do not advocate the builder as a rules source as i do realize it wonky nature. If i were playing more LFR/LAIR or at GEN Con and such i would probably be more inclined to pen and paper build my characters inorder to double check all my work.
I play all of my games in a homebrew enviroment with friends and i'm the only one who cares one bit about optimization so if i'm missing out on some pluses here and there or not exploiting wierd rules wording then i'm ok with that.
Another thing i did not want to happen was for a third thread in a week to become a wording of/RAW/RAI debate.
oh yeah absolutely I was just curious as to what happened in the past.  Enough thread derailing, as you all were !
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

Arguments about the legality of swapping for BCL aside (I'm of the opinion it's legal, and my Handbooks reflect it), I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Armisael for putting his thoughts into writing, and to prod him to calculate some numbers so I can get a good handle of the capabilities of the build.


Maybe some variants also. A straight up Barbarian build might be nice. Perhaps your Warden|Barbarian. These would be very interesting builds and this could become a cool Barbarian build resource much like LDB's Ranger build thread was/is.

What about a Ranger/Barbarian with Throw and Stab + Howling Strike? There is probably a build somewhere in the OP forum.

If we are into Warden/Barbarian, note that gaurdian form and raging overlap, therefore I am sure there is some stupid combo out there.

Armisael,
Why do rages suck exactly? I feel gems like Ancient Berserker's Rage (lvl5 PP), Vengeful Storm Rage (lvl 5 PHB2) and Black Dragon Rage (lvl 9 PHB2) enable exactly what you desire to do with your multi-attack Barbarian. Just because you get no immediate benefit and must wait until next turn, is that why they are bad? Just curious.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

What about a Ranger/Barbarian with Throw and Stab + Howling Strike? There is probably a build somewhere in the OP forum.

Howling Strike is an MBA on a charge. Throw and Stab no longer charges.