Reaper's Touch implement question

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Good afternoon,

I recently came across Reaper's Touch as I was browsing through Shadar-Kai info for another player, and though it was in the middle of the feats for Shadar-Kai the lack of it in the prerequisites made me think it was fair game.  I know in the meantime it's been made race-specific, but the group seems okay with letting me take it anyway.

I'm playing a Tiefling warlock multiclassing as a wizard, so MBAs and opportunity attacks were an area I'd fall down in.  This feat seemed to be the perfect fit for what I'm looking to do, and I was glad they seemed ok with the idea of me utilising it as it's not really open for any sort of abuse with the way my build is.

However, my real question is whether or not implement bonuses are applied in this case since it gains the "melee touch" range.  I'm of the belief that since the implement keyword hasn't gone away that I'd still get the enchantment bonus to attack rolls etc, but the usual DM and another player say that using a wand with a melee touch attack against anything would break (as in physically snap) the implement, and even if I held a tome in one hand I couldn't punch with the other because the enchantment wouldn't pass through me etc.

What do people think?  Should I just be grateful I can use it at all and forgo the use of the implement, or is the implement bonus such a fundamental aspect that it makes no sense not to include it?  I used the example of a pact blade which can be a weapon or an implement - if I used eldritch blast as a MBA with the pact blade as an implement I imagine I'd still get the bonus but they don't like the notion of holding the sole implement in another hand while I punch, nor do they like the idea of having to touch my implement off of things.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!
As long as the implement keyword is there, that's all it needs.  Range is irrelevant.  Only the implement keyword matters.

The entire Monk class is based around implement powers that are largely melee touch attacks.

As far as the wand breaking thing, you're not actually hitting him with the wand, and the DM claiming that it would snap the wand is him making things up that aren't in the rules. 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Hi, thanks for replying so quickly.

I'd share the sentiment about making things up, the feeling was I'd be too powerful using the wand (which was formerly a superior cinder wand but I'd be retraining it to reaper's touch) and that discounting the implement bonus makes it more on par with attacks with swords and stuff like that.

My worry is that if I put my case across as frankly as you have, in that only the implement keyword matters, they'll just say "fine, you can't take the feat then".  They've every right to, since they're making an exception for it anyway, but I don't see why they should say "yes you can take it, but under X, Y and Z conditions", you know?  Would you consider a Tiefling warlock with the hellish blast and reaper's touch feats overpowered...?
The game expects you to use magic implements/weapons for your attacks.  It actually falls apart completely if you don't.  Keeping the implement bonus, actually, makes it more on par with attacks with swords and stuff like that.

I didn't notice that you were trying to get not-a-shadar-kai to take the feat, but the answer is no it won't be overpowered.  There's actually a lot more you can do with simply taking Eldritch Strike in place of Eldritch Blast.  Eldrtich Strike, as a comparison, is not an implement attack, it is a weapon attack.  The idea is you use a weapon that is also an implement (like a pact sword, or by multiclassing Swordmage) so you only have to use one item.

But no, bottom line:  you won't be overpowered.  Fire tiefling is pretty strong, yes, but this isn't even remotely close to the strongest thing you could choose to be doing.  It's pretty middle-of-the-pack, even within the Tiefling Warlock character space.  But again, to re-emphasize, it is critical to the integrity of the system math that magic weapon/implement bonuses get utilized.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
How to diplomatically tell them they're wrong is something you'd have a better time with then us. You know them, we don't.

That said Mand's point about the Monk class and the fact that Implements channel energy, they don't ever actually attack the way, say, a sword does, is really more then enough fluff to counter theirs.
Would you consider a Tiefling warlock with the hellish blast and reaper's touch feats overpowered...?

No. (seconding).  Nothing about spending a feat to get a good Oppertunity Attack is out of line.

And if it is, look up eldrich strike.  Which cost you a weapon instead of a feat or possibly the arcane impliment proficency feat/ MC sorcerer/MC swordmage with an Incendiary dagger.  They can't complain about you stabbing someone.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Another weighed in with "you could hardly poke an enemy with your wand or slap them across the face with the tome and expect to do melee damage"...  Something tells me I'm fighting a losing battle here!

It makes sense to me reading the text:  "
This power gains a range of Melee touch in addition to its normal range. You can use it as a melee basic attack."  that if I'm using it on an adjacent enemy it just gains a range such that I don't provoke opportunity attacks, and that for the purposes of making opportunity attacks this attack now qualifies.

It also begs the question as to whether or not the attack still counts as a ranged basic attack if/when I use it on an adjacent enemy.  If, as was mentioned above, only the words in the text matter (such as implement) does that mean that eldritch blast is always/fundamentally a ranged basic attack whether it's ranged or melee touch?  I only ask since I'm wearing bracers of the perfect shot, and am curious as to whether that bonus would count or not in this situation.


 
RAW is not clear.  Expect table variation.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Another weighed in with "you could hardly poke an enemy with your wand or slap them across the face with the tome and expect to do melee damage"...  Something tells me I'm fighting a losing battle here!


Of course not.  They're absolutely right, and doing so would constitute an improvised melee attack.  1d4 damage, no proficiency bonus, no weapon groups.  However that's not what you're doing.  You're casting a spell, Eldritch Blast.  You're not just poking them with the wand.  The wand is never required to even have any physical contact with the person, just that they be within your Melee touch range.  You're channeling the spell through your hand, and then touching them with your hand.

It makes sense to me reading the text:  "This power gains a range of Melee touch in addition to its normal range. You can use it as a melee basic attack."  that if I'm using it on an adjacent enemy it just gains a range such that I don't provoke opportunity attacks, and that for the purposes of making opportunity attacks this attack now qualifies.

Precisely.  That's what the rules say, and you're absolutely correct for thinking this.  People trying to stop you from doing this are having trouble getting around their limited imaginations as to what you're doing, and imposing things that aren't rules onto you. 

It also begs the question as to whether or not the attack still counts as a ranged basic attack if/when I use it on an adjacent enemy.  If, as was mentioned above, only the words in the text matter (such as implement) does that mean that eldritch blast is always/fundamentally a ranged basic attack whether it's ranged or melee touch?  I only ask since I'm wearing bracers of the perfect shot, and am curious as to whether that bonus would count or not in this situation.

Incredibly unclear.  Given the "Special" line, though, I'd be inclined to say that as much as I think it's pointless and bad, it would still be a RBA, even though it has a range of melee.  Don't push that issue, though.

By the way, if these people really are giving you this hard a time about your character, you may want to consider another group.  Having a sit-down with them and saying "Look, I play the character I want because I want to have fun.  Please explain why you're having so much trouble letting me have fun" may not be a particularly pleasant experience, but eventually you may have to.

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Another weighed in with "you could hardly poke an enemy with your wand or slap them across the face with the tome and expect to do melee damage"...  Something tells me I'm fighting a losing battle here!

Are you throwing wands to attack them at range?  Then why would they assume your stabbing them with a wand?

You still "You fire a bolt of dark, crackling eldritch energy at your foe", just point blank range, and can be used for OA's.

It also begs the question as to whether or not the attack still counts as a ranged basic attack if/when I use it on an adjacent enemy.  If, as was mentioned above, only the words in the text matter (such as implement) does that mean that eldritch blast is always/fundamentally a ranged basic attack whether it's ranged or melee touch?  I only ask since I'm wearing bracers of the perfect shot, and am curious as to whether that bonus would count or not in this situation. 

Yes.

Though alot of people have trouble seperating "ranged/melee attack" with "ranged/melee basic attack".  They are 2 seperate things with 2 seperate definitions, but with very similar words and idea space.

But as long as you don't try abusing it (like i did here and here), it shouldn't be an issue.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />However, my real question is whether or not implement bonuses are applied in this case since it gains the "melee touch" range.  I'm of the belief that since the implement keyword hasn't gone away that I'd still get the enchantment bonus to attack rolls etc, but the usual DM and another player say that using a wand with a melee touch attack against anything would break (as in physically snap) the implement, and even if I held a tome in one hand I couldn't punch with the other because the enchantment wouldn't pass through me etc.



Your DM and the other player are full of crap.  There's absolutely nothing in the rules to support that idea, and you can freely describe how your powers work however you want, including poking people with wands and bashing them over the head with your tome.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.