## Vertical Slides and Beguiling Strands optimization

14 posts / 0 new
Sydonis
Joined Jun 2008
665 Posts
Here is my question:  can you slide a creature vertically into the air?  If not, please cite a source which states this cannot be done.  If so, I propose that Beguiling Strands can be used to teleport all creatures within burst 7 up to 14 squares and deal an additional 7d10 damage each round to all targets.

[quote author]Rules Compedium
Slide (p.211):  Sliding a target can move it in any direction.

Square (p.200):  ...is equivalent to a 5 foot square in the game world.

Falling Damage (p.209):  A creature takes 1d10 damage for each 10 feet it falls, to a maximum of 50d10 damage.  The creature falls prone when it lands.[/quote]
Considering that there is no errata for the Rules Compendium, and assuming the statement "move in any direction" actually means you can move in any direction, any power (especially at-will powers) that slides 2 squares or more incredibly deadly if you use the power to slide a creature up, even overpowered.

Let alone slide optimization..
beguiling strands + arcane admixture + mark of storm + resounding thunder + enlarge spell + psychic lock = Int -2 +2d10 damage + slide 4 + prone + -2 to next attack roll to all creatures in a burst 7?  Every single round?

Which brings me to the next issue in this combo:

[quote author]Dragon 387
Walk Among The Fey:  ...where you teleport the creature remains subject to any restrictions on the original slide.[/quote]
Now, add on the feat Walk Among The Fey and teleportation optimization.  If you cannot use a slide to move a creature vertically, then a teleportation/slide optimization combo cannot be used as follows.

However, if you can slide creatures up, this feat lets you teleport creatures up.  Which means, with an optimized teleport items..
Walk Among The Fey + Eladrin Chain (+3) + 2 Methridaine Steel (+2) + Ring of Retreat (+1) + Ring of Dimensional Escape (+1) + Eladrin Boots (+2) = +4d10 damage (+9 squares).  I'm certain there's another way to get 1 extra square to the slide, so we'll round up to an even +5d10.

So to recap..
targets Will
affects all enemies within burst 7
Int -2 +7d10 damage
teleport target 14 squares
prones enemies that can't make successful acrobatics check (which is most)
-2 to next attack roll
can be subject to charm and psychic optimization

Every single round.

This puts most daily attacks to shame.

## The 4e Wealth By Level Table

PhilipENoe
Joined Aug 2011
342 Posts
PHB page 286:

Clear Path: Forced movement can’t move a target
into a space it couldn’t enter by walking. The target
can’t be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze
into a space.

rjsilverthorn
Joined Feb 2006
1508 Posts
Forced movement was updated specifically to preclude vertical movement.

From the PHB rules updates (www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdatePH.pdf)

Pull, Push, and Slide

Page 285: Add the following bullet point to the
shaded text. This update clarifies how forced
movement works in three dimensions versus two
dimensions.
✦ Two-Dimensional: Forced movement is normally twodimensional; all the squares of the movement must
be on the same horizontal plane. Forced movement
can become three-dimensional when the target is
flying, is moved through a substance such as water, or
is on a non-horizontal surface, such as an incline, that
supports it. This means an earthbound target cannot
normally be pushed to a square in the air, but a hovering target can be. Similarly, a target can be pulled
down a flight of stairs, and it can be slid in any direction underwater

As for teleporting, they get a save if you try to teleport them into the air.

Teleportation

Page 286: Replace the text for the Destination entry
and the Immobilized entry. This change addresses
what happens when a creature is forced to teleport,
and it clarifies that the Immobilized entry includes
restrained as well.
Teleportation
✦ Destination: Your destination must be a space you
can occupy without squeezing. If arriving in the
destination space would cause the target to fall or if
that space is hindering terrain, the target can make a
saving throw. On a save, the teleportation is negated.

Sydonis
Joined Jun 2008
665 Posts
So they updated the rules in the PHB, but not in the Rules compendium?  That seems senseless, to have a rules compendium without updated or complete rules, or an errata to follow.  Thanks for the info, this completely changes the abuse one of my players is currently pulling :D

## The 4e Wealth By Level Table

rjsilverthorn
Joined Feb 2006
1508 Posts
So they updated the rules in the PHB, but not in the Rules compendium?  That seems senseless, to have a rules compendium without updated or complete rules, or an errata to follow.  Thanks for the info, this completely changes the abuse one of my players is currently pulling :D

Well it was updated in the PHB because the change was prior to the RC, but there is equivalent wording in the RC on page 213 for both forced movement and teleports.
Sydonis
Joined Jun 2008
665 Posts
Well it was updated in the PHB because the change was prior to the RC, but there is equivalent wording in the RC on page 213 for both forced movement and teleports.

So there is!  My bad :/

## The 4e Wealth By Level Table

Zathris
Joined Nov 2009
5721 Posts
And beyond all that, Beguiling Strands is a Blast, not Burst, and it cannot be enlarged because it lacks damage dice; and Ring of Retreat only adds to the distance of powers that have the Teleportation keyword.

If you wanted to maximize targets teleported at-will Freezing Burst would be the better place to start, since it can be made into a Burst 4 (9x9 trumps beguiling strands max of 7x7) and has a starting slide of 1 so it's also a longer distance. Not that you can teleport non-flying creatures into the air with WatF anyway.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
ohgoditburns
Joined Jun 2009
527 Posts
While we're on the topic, those forced movement rules apply to monsters as well, right? In LA3, pterodactyls were pulling PCs off the ground, and in LA4 spiders on the ceiling are also yanking PCs off the ground.
kilpatds
Joined Nov 2003
5244 Posts
While we're on the topic, those forced movement rules apply to monsters as well, right?

Monsters can have powers that give them forced movement and explicitely permit them to perform verticle pulls.  Sometimes the authors even remember to write those special-exceptions into the monster's power block.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Joined Feb 2011
3468 Posts
While we're on the topic, those forced movement rules apply to monsters as well, right?

Monsters can have powers that give them forced movement and explicitely permit them to perform verticle pulls.  Sometimes the authors even remember to write those special-exceptions into the monster's power block.

Keyword there being "sometimes" ;)
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
ohgoditburns
Joined Jun 2009
527 Posts
While we're on the topic, those forced movement rules apply to monsters as well, right?

Monsters can have powers that give them forced movement and explicitely permit them to perform verticle pulls.  Sometimes the authors even remember to write those special-exceptions into the monster's power block.

Keyword there being "sometimes" ;)

Maybe I'm using the wrong search terms, but it looks like there are 4 instances: Peryton, elder peryton, cave fisher angler, and manticore impaler.

I usually let it slide since it's fun for monsters to be able to do it, but it feels cheaty in a DM vs. player competition (Lair Assault) especially since it often ends in an instant death scenario.
zhara
Joined Nov 2010
199 Posts
Lair Assault is designed to instantly kill players. There is literally a "save or die" moment in spider-killer, and it's extremely difficult to avoid. in Tyrantclaw, if you didn't have some way to mitigate all falling damage, period, you died unless you were a real ace at breaking grabs. That's just the nature of the beast.

Any more questions OP?
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
26152 Posts
While we're on the topic, those forced movement rules apply to monsters as well, right?

Monsters can have powers that give them forced movement and explicitely permit them to perform verticle pulls.  Sometimes the authors even remember to write those special-exceptions into the monster's power block.

I think there's a few PC powers that make the exception as well.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

kilpatds
Joined Nov 2003
5244 Posts
Lair Assault is designed to instantly kill players

Oh drat, I did it wrong then.  I only killed the characters.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima