07/06/2012 LD: "The Cards of Magic 2013, Part 1"

47 posts / 0 new
Last post
This thread is for discussion of this week's Latest Developments, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.
I like the card-by-card insight approach for development even more than I like it for design. Well done.
Ahh, it's good to be back to a set that I even slightly care about, so the card-by-card articles like this interest me again. Farewell, Avacyn Restored. You shall not be the least bit missed.

Ajani, Caller of the Pride: What interests me the most about Ajani is that Ajani Goldmane's ultimate works better with Ajani, Caller of the Pride (who buffs one creature at a time), and Caller of the Pride's ultimate works better with Goldmane (who buffs a whole bunch of creatures at a time).

Serra Avatar: I agree that mythics should feel cool because of their potential, rather than the fact that they're obviously powerful and undercosted. Too bad so many mythics instead opt for the 'undercosted' route.

Oblivion Ring: I'd love to see this card be in Standard for the rest of Magic's existence too. It's a great pressure valve, without being too strong. And the 'bounce while the trigger is on the stack' is a lot harder to pull off with an enchantment, than a creature like Fiend Hunter.

Augur of Bolas: I like how this card replaces Ponder, but does so in a way that doesn't empower Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage. Very good work, here.

Battle of Wits: I feel like the real reason this card is showing up here is because it won't work in the current environment. Last time, it had Transmute to make the unwieldy deck workable. Now, tutoring is going in the other direction, and control in general is getting weakened. It's a shame that such a cool card is being printed without the support needed to make it playable...

Master of the Pearl Trident: This really shouldn't cost two mana. Or, more accurately, if this is going to cost two mana, then you should print a landwalk-lord in all four other colors that also costs two mana. Blue's not supposed to be the best at creatures.

Diabolic Revelation: That is the ugliest mana cost I have ever seen.

Murder: Too bad you had to get rid of Doom Blade to print this. Now I'll be unable to feel anything but annoyed when I look at it.

Tormented Soul: This is such an elegant card design, and it plays well with so many themes. I love it.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/c6f9e416e5e0e1f0a1e5c42b0c7b3e88.jpg?v=90000)

Oblivion Ring: If it were up to me, this card (or something very close to it) would be Standard-legal for the rest of Magic's history.

Same here.  I remember as soon as Scars of Mirrodin was spoiled, I realized there was no O-ring in the format and decided R&D really had no concept of how important answers are.  Fortunately that particular Zendikar/Scars environment turned out to be wonderful with absolutely no troublesome permanents to worry about.  Certainly no non-creature permanents that non-blue players would have enjoyed the flexibility to deal with.

Master of the Pearl Trident: At last, another Merfolk Lord.  It was embarrassing to only have 4.


Duress: When Duress first came out, I hated it and felt it was completely broken.  Now all the Necropotence decks, Yawgmoth's Will decks, Yawgmoth's Bargain decks, etc not only had the most overpowered spells, they could easily disrupt anything relying on Survival of the Fittest, Sneak Attack, or anything more build-around-me interesting.  


In hindsight I realize this was because Magic creatures were so unexciting back then, taking a non-creature spell was all you'd ever want to do anyway.  But since it's return I've been happy with Duress around, and I think that's a testament to how much more fun an environment is when the broken cards are creatures and not sorceries.  


Battleflight Eagle: "Nobody's going to take a a bird cleric reprint seriously.  We need a name people will respect.  'Thunderwar'. 'Skymasher.'  Something like that."

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

Master of the Pearl Trident: This really shouldn't cost two mana. Or, more accurately, if this is going to cost two mana, then you should print a landwalk-lord in all four other colors that also costs two mana. Blue's not supposed to be the best at creatures.



True, that, but Wizards has been ignoring the whole "blue sucks at creatures idea" for ages now.

Also, I'd like to esee more actual Multiverse comments. Not that you aren't funny or don't write well, Zac, but the Multiverse comments were generally a lot of fun.
76125763 wrote:
Zindaras' meta is like a fossil, ancient and its secrets yet to be uncovered. Only men of yore, long dead, knew of it.


True, that, but Wizards has been ignoring the whole "blue sucks at creatures idea" for ages now.



Well, they have to give them something... Since basically blue doesn't get any playable NON-creature spells anymore either.  For example, this is apparently now what we're supposed to remember being "blue's thing":

"Meanwhile, 
Essence Scatter and Negate embody (to me) the blue philosophy of possessing powerful but narrow answers to the threats you most expect, rewarding preparation and planning and diligent study of your opponents' vulnerabilities." 


Oh thats right.  ...No, not catch-all responses like generic bounce, or well-rounded countermagic, or card selection and filtering.

(Now we get Index... Yippee!) 

Meanwhile, every single creature does something when you cast it that an instant or sorcery wishes it could still be allowed to do. What I wouldn't give for actual Fact or Fiction instead of being forced to play it attached to a big flying dude.

Maybe my nostalgia and memory of what Magic is/was (to me) just doesn't line up any more with the current R&D philosophy.  Which in as few words as possible seems to be that people want to "smash each other with dudes that almost always resolve unhindered."  It may seem fun for a bit, but it gets boring pretty fast...
Photobucket My Trade Thread: The_Fringer's Mercantile Plane (Updated: 1/13/11)
Three comments:

Oblivion Ring is a good card for stabilizing an environment, sure, but no card should be a mainstay of Standard Magic.  I'm disappointed every time I see O-ring printed, not because it doesn't play well or because it's unfun, but because it demonstrates a lack of interest on you guys' part to fix the role planeswalkers have in the game.  White should not be the only color that gets a reliable, versatile answer to 'walkers, but every time you print O-ring, you dam the creative juices from broadening the suite of answers to these guys.  It's been over 5 years, guys - the shininess of the new card type is gone, and you need to start making them actually fit into sets, rather than lording over them.

Master of the Pearl Trident is ridiculous.  Legacy could really use a tribal enabler of some other tribe than Merfolk.  I mean, Goblins haven't gotten anything interesting in ages, and no other tribe gets any love at all, for some incomprehensible reason, but Merfolk, hey, a fifth Merfolk lord sounds like a great idea!  Really?  Really?  Fish is a stupid deck in a stupid color for aggro, and I can't understand why you encourage it.  Is it seriously too much to ask that a creature color have the best mono-color aggro deck in Legacy?  Or even just any color but blue.  I'd settle for that.

Vedalken Entrancer and friends is not enough to make mill worth anything in M13.  Don't get me wrong, I don't want it to be - I hate that archetype.  But it isn't even close.  And that's a problem for new players because it's a trap to let them think it might be viable.  Trepanation Blade was better mill by far: it was bad but not so bad that you couldn't make a go of it, plus it didn't require nearly so many dead cards in your deck to give you hope of it working.  The way it's going to play out is like this: someone reads your article, thinks "ooh, I should try mill" and drafts all the Entrancers and Sculpts and Archaeomancers he can see, and then he gets run over because he's playing with 7 unutterably crappy cards in his deck.  His mill strategy that gets no support from the rest of his deck because there IS no support for mill outside of those three to be found in the set.  You're basically trolling newbies into taking the worst cards in the set in draft, while good players are now forced to convince them that mill only works if it falls into your lap.
"I severely dislike the part of O-Ring that lets you put the ability on the stack, bounce it, and exile something permanently"

Presumably because it feels like a bug in the rules rather than a feature?

It has a huge upside, though: this kind of interaction is what makes Magic fun for some people. As you look around for ways to clean up the somewhat ugly examples, make sure you replace them with at least as many elegant ones.

Don't make me link to some old MaRo article about psychographics! I have an Insert Link button and I'm not afraid to use it! Tongue Out
While I severely dislike the part of O-Ring that lets you put the ability on the stack, bounce it, and exile something permanently[...]

Psssst! Hey, Zac!

When Oblivion Circle enters the battlefield, exile another target nonland permanent. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control when Oblivion Circle is no longer on the battlefield.

You know it's better. All you have to do is convince the others...

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Maybe my nostalgia and memory of what Magic is/was (to me) just doesn't line up any more with the current R&D philosophy.  Which in as few words as possible seems to be that people want to "smash each other with dudes that almost always resolve unhindered."  It may seem fun for a bit, but it gets boring pretty fast...



Fun is subjective though. There are simply more people who were bored with how it was, and keep finding the current state fun.

Very interesting insights. Thanks a lot.


I was wondering if you might comment on Day of Judgment's disappearance... we got an acknowledgement of it, but no actual comment on its absence. (Though it was very good to get that for Cancel.)


I definitely agree with chronego on these two points:
Serra Avatar: I agree that mythics should feel cool because of their potential, rather than the fact that they're obviously powerful and undercosted. Too bad so many mythics instead opt for the 'undercosted' route.

Master of the Pearl Trident: This really shouldn't cost two mana. Or, more accurately, if this is going to cost two mana, then you should print a landwalk-lord in all four other colors that also costs two mana. Blue's not supposed to be the best at creatures.

I've yet to see a remotely good argument for why Master of the Pearl Trident costs UU rather than 1UU like the rest of the landwalk lords (Elvish Champion and friends).
I've yet to see a remotely good argument for why Master of the Pearl Trident costs UU rather than 1UU like the rest of the landwalk lords (Elvish Champion and friends).



My guess:

1) It feels like a much better throwback to Lord of Atlantis when it has the same mana cost.

2) They didn't make merfolk in Standard anywhere near good enough that this guy would ever be a problem. A lord can't really be that good if his minions are terrible. 
Also, I'd like to esee more actual Multiverse comments. Not that you aren't funny or don't write well, Zac, but the Multiverse comments were generally a lot of fun.



Me too.

There's some value to seeing two sets of stories about a set's cards (the design and development columns) but there's more value in having one guy's personal take, and the selected highlights of the entire company's takes. I refuse to believe that the multiverse comments have suddenly gotten boring over the last few years, nor that (suitably selected) they'd reveal too much about future future sets. As a window into the design process, a set of attributed comments gives a clearer picture and a more concise story than talking about a card going through a lot of changes, or producing controversy...

If they're not a good fit for the development column any more, maybe as a feature article?
M:tG Rules Advisor
I never noticed how Ajani Goldmane effectively spawns functionally identical copies of Serra Avatar.
RE: Diabolic Revelation


You admit it is probably stupid in EDH, but you printed it anyway so people had something to do w/ Liliana's ultimate. Why tutor for a bunch of cards after you ultimate her when you could just cast Drain Life and win? I think you tried way too hard here when Alpha contained your answer.  
I'm excited to see mill cards back in a big way - whether or not they are good enough is one question, but it's just exciting to see R&D remembering to include alternate win conditions in Limited formats.

Too bad that Dampen Thought will probably never see print again, that card was part of so many good memories.
It constrains brokenness without itself being broken, and kickstarts (when executed properly) an evolving metagame wherein the card's strength against the environment waxes and wanes in direct proportion to its popularity.


You mean inverse proportion.  Direct proportion would mean that as the card becomes more popular, it becomes stronger against the environment. 
Maybe my nostalgia and memory of what Magic is/was (to me) just doesn't line up any more with the current R&D philosophy.  Which in as few words as possible seems to be that people want to "smash each other with dudes that almost always resolve unhindered."  It may seem fun for a bit, but it gets boring pretty fast...



Fun is subjective though. There are simply more people who were bored with how it was, and keep finding the current state fun.



You'll notice how I said that's how it feels to me.  And while we're at it, your second sentence is also purely opinion/conjecture, unless you have some sort of definitive data that I don't know about.

Photobucket My Trade Thread: The_Fringer's Mercantile Plane (Updated: 1/13/11)
Maybe my nostalgia and memory of what Magic is/was (to me) just doesn't line up any more with the current R&D philosophy.  Which in as few words as possible seems to be that people want to "smash each other with dudes that almost always resolve unhindered."  It may seem fun for a bit, but it gets boring pretty fast...



Fun is subjective though. There are simply more people who were bored with how it was, and keep finding the current state fun.



Fun is subjective.  Balance is not.  And lately it seems like the balance of the three archtypes is skewed.

Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.

I've seen angels fall from blinding heights. But you yourself are nothing so divine. Just next in line.

191752181 wrote:
All I'm saying is, I don't really see how she goes around petrifying swords and boots and especially mirrors. How the heck does she beat a Panoptic Mirror? It makes no sense for artifacts either. Or enchantments, for that matter. "Well, you see, Jimmy cast this spell to flood the mountain, but then the gorgon just looked at the water really hard and it went away."
Maybe my nostalgia and memory of what Magic is/was (to me) just doesn't line up any more with the current R&D philosophy.  Which in as few words as possible seems to be that people want to "smash each other with dudes that almost always resolve unhindered."  It may seem fun for a bit, but it gets boring pretty fast...

Fun is subjective though. There are simply more people who were bored with how it was, and keep finding the current state fun.

Fun is subjective.  Balance is not.  And lately it seems like the balance of the three archtypes is skewed.

I don't know about that.  Wolf-Run Ramp is arguably a control deck, with its numerous sweepers.  Solar Flare is also maintaining a presence in the environment.  If you prefer more traditional control, Blue/Black was appearing regularly until Delver of Secrets (not aggro or mid-range) pushed it out.  Even now, plenty of countering takes place, it's just being done by the aggro-control Delver decks.
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
As you probably know already, Return to Ravnica is just around the corner, and spoiler alert: it's going to be a multicolor-matters set. I know, I know, Earth-shaking news.


Well, I wouldn't say it was earth-shaking, but yes, it was a relevant piece of information. I was thinking that maybe Ravnica would go for a different theme, with the supposedly end of the guilds and changes in the plane. I wasn't taking the multicolor theme for granted.
OMG click HERE! OMG! How to autocard and use decklist format
--->
For autocarding, write [c][/c] with the name of the card inside it. [c]Island[/c] = Island For linking a card to Gatherer without writting the name of said card for readers, use the autocard brackets together with and equal sign and right the name of the real card. Then put the message you want inside the tags, like you would do with autocarding. Like this: [c=Curse of the Cabal]Captain Never-resolves[/c] = Captain Never-resolves For using the decklist format, follow this: [deck] 4* Terramorphic Expanse 4* Evolving Wilds ... [/deck] It equals:
Real signature, Sblocked for space:
57817638 wrote:
I like storm crow because I really like crows in real life, as an animal, and the card isn't terribly stupid, but packs a good deal of nostalgia and also a chunck of the game's history. So it's perhaps one of the cards I have most affection to, but not because "lol storm crow is bad hurr hurr durr".
Listen to my SoundCloud while you read my signature. The Island, Come And See, The Landlord's Daughter, You'll Not Feel The Drowning - The Decemberists by vimschy IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/rkvR.gif)IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/L3es.gif) IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/m71H.gif)
Quotes
56747598 wrote:
57295478 wrote:
Although I do assume you deliberately refer to them (DCI) as The Grand Imperial Convocation of Evil just for the purposes of making them sound like an ancient and terrible conspiracy.
Now, now. 1994 doesn't quite qualify as "ancient".
56734518 wrote:
Oh, it's a brilliant plan. You see, Bolas was travelling through shadowmoor, causing trouble, when he saw a Wickerbough Elder with its stylin' dead scarecrow hat. Now, Bolas being Bolas took the awesome hat and he put it on his head, but even with all his titanic powers of magic he couldn't make it fit. He grabbed some more scarecrows, but then a little kithkin girl asked if he was trying to build a toupee. "BY ALL THE POWERS IN THE MULTIVERSE!" he roared, "I WILL HAVE A HAT WORTHY OF MY GLORY." and so he went through his Dark Lore of Doom (tm) looking for something he could make into a hat that would look as stylish on him as a scarecrow does on a treefolk. He thought about the Phyrexians, but they were covered in goopy oil that would make his nonexistant hair greasy. He Tried out angels for a while but they didn't sit quite right. Then, he looked under "e" (because in the Elder Draconic alphabet, "e" for Eldrazi is right next to "h" for Hat) in his Dark Lore of Doom and saw depictions of the Eldrazi, and all their forms. "THIS SHALL BE MY HAT!" he declared, poking a picture of Emrakul, "AND WITH IT I WILL USHER IN A NEW AGE OF DARKNESS -- ER, I MEAN A NEW AGE OF FASHION!" And so Nicol Bolas masterminded the release of the Eldrazi.
57864098 wrote:
Rhox War Monk just flips pancakes, and if games have told us anything, it's that food = life.
56747598 wrote:
76973988 wrote:
This thread has gotten creepy. XP
Really? Really? The last couple days have been roughly every perverse fetish imaginable, but it only got "creepy" when speculation on Mother of Runes's mob affiliation came up?
76672808 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
57531048 wrote:
Nice mana base. Not really.
Yeah, really. If my deck was going to cost $1000+, I'd at least make it good.
99812049 wrote:
I like to think up what I consider clever names for my decks, only later to be laughed at by my wife. It kills me a little on the inside, but thats what marriage is about.
56816728 wrote:
56854588 wrote:
Of course, the best use [of tolaria west] is transmuting for the real Tolaria. ;)
Absolutely. I used to loose to my buddy's Banding deck for ages, it was then that I found out about Tolaria, and I was finally able win my first game.
70246459 wrote:
WOAH wait wait wait
56957928 wrote:
You know, being shallow and jusdgmental aside, "I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
"I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates
56957928 wrote:
OH MY GOD
109874309 wrote:
The only way I'd cast this card is into a bonfire.
82032421 wrote:
The short answer is that there's no rule barring annoying people from posting, but there a rule barring us from harassing them about it.
56747598 wrote:
Browbeat is a card that is an appropriate deck choice when there's no better idea available. "No better idea available" was pretty much the running theme of Odyssey era.
56874518 wrote:
Or perhaps it was a more straightforward comment indicating a wish for you to be bitten (Perhaps repeatedly) by a small yet highly venomous arachnid.
70246459 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
You're an idiot, and I'm in no mood for silliness.
57817638 wrote:
57145078 wrote:
You just... Vektor it.
That's the answer to everything.
70246459 wrote:
58347268 wrote:
I think the problem is that you don't exist.
This would sound great out of context!
56965458 wrote:
Modern is like playing a new tournament every time : you build a deck, you win with it, don't bother keeping it. Just build another, its key pieces will get banned.
57864098 wrote:
57309598 wrote:
I specifically remember posting a thread when I was just a witty bitty noob.
You make it sound like that's still not the case.
58325628 wrote:
Rap is what happens when the c from crap is taken away.
Doug Beyer:
But sometimes it's also challenging. Because sometimes OH MY GOD, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING?
141434757 wrote:
Flashforward five thousand years (Click for atmosphere) :
57927608 wrote:
to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum, Vektor finds a way.
58347268 wrote:
when in rome **** AND PILLAGE
143229641 wrote:
I always find it helpful when im angry to dress up in an owl costume and rub pennies all over my body in front of a full body mirror next to the window.
Dymecoar:
Playing Magic without Blue is like sleeping without any sheets or blankets. You can do it...but why?
Omega137:
Me: "I love the moment when a control deck stabilizes. It feels so... right." Omega137: "I like the life drop part until you get there, it's the MtG variant of bungee jumping"
Zigeif777:
Just do it like Yu-Gi-Oh or monkeys: throw all the crap you got at them and hope it works or else the by-standers (or opponents) just get dirty and pissed.
57471038 wrote:
58258708 wrote:
It's true that Alpha and Beta didn't contain any cards like Tarmogoyf, Darksteel Colossus, or Platinum Angel. It just contained weak, insignificant cards like Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, and Time Walk.
Normally it's difficult to pick up on your jokes/sarcasm. But this one's pretty much out there. Good progress. You have moved up to Humanoid. You'll be Human in no time.
91893448 wrote:
94618431 wrote:
I didn't know Samurai were known to be able to cut down whole armies...
They can when they're using lightsabers!
57129358 wrote:
97980259 wrote:
My wife brought home a baby black squirrel they found on a horse track and cared for it for a few days. We named it Grixis, but it died.
Unearth it!
70246459 wrote:
[/spoiler] And I'm on Magic Arcana. How about you? Oh, by the way, I'm also on From the Lab now. Twice, actually. And now with my own submited decklist!
Maybe my nostalgia and memory of what Magic is/was (to me) just doesn't line up any more with the current R&D philosophy.  Which in as few words as possible seems to be that people want to "smash each other with dudes that almost always resolve unhindered."  It may seem fun for a bit, but it gets boring pretty fast...

Fun is subjective though. There are simply more people who were bored with how it was, and keep finding the current state fun.

Fun is subjective.  Balance is not.  And lately it seems like the balance of the three archtypes is skewed.

I don't know about that.  Wolf-Run Ramp is arguably a control deck, with its numerous sweepers.  Solar Flare is also maintaining a presence in the environment.  If you prefer more traditional control, Blue/Black was appearing regularly until Delver of Secrets (not aggro or mid-range) pushed it out.  Even now, plenty of countering takes place, it's just being done by the aggro-control Delver decks.



You're looking right now.  I'm looking at what we know of what's coming.  Unless RTR proves me wrong, Control is going to look very weird.  I'm hoping (praying) it does.

Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.

I've seen angels fall from blinding heights. But you yourself are nothing so divine. Just next in line.

191752181 wrote:
All I'm saying is, I don't really see how she goes around petrifying swords and boots and especially mirrors. How the heck does she beat a Panoptic Mirror? It makes no sense for artifacts either. Or enchantments, for that matter. "Well, you see, Jimmy cast this spell to flood the mountain, but then the gorgon just looked at the water really hard and it went away."
Maybe my nostalgia and memory of what Magic is/was (to me) just doesn't line up any more with the current R&D philosophy.  Which in as few words as possible seems to be that people want to "smash each other with dudes that almost always resolve unhindered."  It may seem fun for a bit, but it gets boring pretty fast...



Fun is subjective though. There are simply more people who were bored with how it was, and keep finding the current state fun.



You'll notice how I said that's how it feels to me.  And while we're at it, your second sentence is also purely opinion/conjecture, unless you have some sort of definitive data that I don't know about.




But "It may seem fun for a bit" doesn't seem to describe just you. Actually with the part after it, it should be impossible even. I think it's the word 'may' that I find offensive or something (and thus in the need to reply to it, even though it's a silly thing to argue about). It kinda implies 'those people' are wrong? 

I don't have the data. But some Wizards people reference that data in articles, interviews, twitter, etc.
While I severely dislike the part of O-Ring that lets you put the ability on the stack, bounce it, and exile something permanently[...]

Psssst! Hey, Zac!

When Oblivion Circle enters the battlefield, exile another target nonland permanent. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control when Oblivion Circle is no longer on the battlefield.

You know it's better. All you have to do is convince the others...



Seconded.

"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
The thing is, bsangel is far and Away stronger than thundermaw hellkite. Any deck that would get screwed out of existence if it no longer has an army of flying spirit tokens is a. A deck withaccess to a million anthem effects, or b. is using those spirits to block and set up a powerful end game, thus meaning thundermawshoes nothing. And with battle transmute is likely returning in rtr. But consume spirit would have been better for the new liliana.
 
By your logic you wouldn't get to the end game if you were denied tokens/blocking.

When Oblivion Circle enters the battlefield, exile another target nonland permanent. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control when Oblivion Circle is no longer on the battlefield.

You know it's better. All you have to do is convince the others...

When I am helping people with card wordings in the You Make the Card forum, I sometimes use delayed state triggers to make the card do what they expect. I do not think that a card with a delayed state trigger has ever been printed.
One other thing i just realized- ajani has 4 loyalty. And not to long ago, there was an article that explained why tibalt had 2 loyalty and all the cheap walkers would act like loxodon hierarchs otherwise.. why does this not apply to ajani? especially because he ticcks up to five and can get to his ultimate very quickly.
Now I really want to know what design handed off for Ajani. Having an equipment-based planeswalker, especially since it's a leonin, would've been really cool.

When Oblivion Circle enters the battlefield, exile another target nonland permanent. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control when Oblivion Circle is no longer on the battlefield.

You know it's better. All you have to do is convince the others...

When I am helping people with card wordings in the You Make the Card forum, I sometimes use delayed state triggers to make the card do what they expect. I do not think that a card with a delayed state trigger has ever been printed.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Geist of Saint Traft have a delayed state trigger? I remember there's some sort of rules weirdness about the trigger that removes the angel.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Geist of Saint Traft have a delayed state trigger? I remember there's some sort of rules weirdness about the trigger that removes the angel.

It is not a state trigger. It triggers "at the end of combat." Darksteel Reactor's third ability is a state trigger.
603.8. Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They'll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers. (Note that state triggers aren't the same as state-based actions.) A state-triggered ability doesn't trigger again until the ability has resolved, has been countered, or has otherwise left the stack. Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again.

Example: A permanent's ability reads, "Whenever you have no cards in hand, draw a card." If its controller plays the last card from his or her hand, the ability will trigger once and won't trigger again until it has resolved. If its controller casts a spell that reads "Discard your hand, then draw that many cards," the ability will trigger during the spell's resolution because the player's hand was momentarily empty.

As you probably know already, Return to Ravnica is just around the corner, and spoiler alert: it's going to be a multicolor-matters set. I know, I know, Earth-shaking news.


Well, I wouldn't say it was earth-shaking, but yes, it was a relevant piece of information. I was thinking that maybe Ravnica would go for a different theme, with the supposedly end of the guilds and changes in the plane. I wasn't taking the multicolor theme for granted.

from yeva, i think what will happen is there will be a nature vs civilization war, and the guilds will all take sides and fight over it. The gruul are likely on the nature side, regaining their noble, glorious position as guardians of the wild (im such a sucker for them) and the orzhov and azorius will definitely fight for the city (more money and order in civilization respectively). The others will be torn.
One other thing i just realized- ajani has 4 loyalty. And not to long ago, there was an article that explained why tibalt had 2 loyalty and all the cheap walkers would act like loxodon hierarchs otherwise.. why does this not apply to ajani? especially because he ticcks up to five and can get to his ultimate very quickly.

Probably because neither of his first two abilities net card or tempo advantage, neither of them help protect him on their own, and both are utterly useless without something else around to benefit from them.

Compare Ajani to Travel Preparations. It costs an extra mana and takes two whole turns of waiting before you get more power out of Ajani than you can out of a single casting of Preparations. Ajani's one mana cheaper than a double-cast, but he takes four turns to top a double-cast Preparations. A little "lifegain" on the side helps even the score.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

When I am helping people with card wordings in the You Make the Card forum, I sometimes use delayed state triggers to make the card do what they expect. I do not think that a card with a delayed state trigger has ever been printed.

IIRC, they were used during that brief period when Substance was in use. I think. Or maybe my memory's just faulty.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Substance didn't involve delayed state triggers, just the granting of a triggered ability for the same effect, as in "CARDNAME gains substance until end of turn and has 'When CARDNAME doesn't have substance, sacrifice it.' "
The way to template an Oblivion Ring style card so as to avoid the perceived problem would be to follow the approach used by Sower of Temptation. I'm not an expert at wording cards, but I think it would come out something like this:

When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, exile target permanent for as long as Oblivion Ring remains on the battlefield.

I don't know if the Comprehensive Rules would need a minor tweak to support this, but it would clearly work mechanically without creating new kinds of memory requirements or rules problems.

(Aside: I'm not entirely in favour of this for reasons I discussed earlier, just pointing out how it could be done.)
One other thing i just realized- ajani has 4 loyalty. And not to long ago, there was an article that explained why tibalt had 2 loyalty and all the cheap walkers would act like loxodon hierarchs otherwise.. why does this not apply to ajani? especially because he ticcks up to five and can get to his ultimate very quickly.

Probably because neither of his first two abilities net card or tempo advantage, neither of them help protect him on their own, and both are utterly useless without something else around to benefit from them.

Compare Ajani to Travel Preparations. It costs an extra mana and takes two whole turns of waiting before you get more power out of Ajani than you can out of a single casting of Preparations. Ajani's one mana cheaper than a double-cast, but he takes four turns to top a double-cast Preparations. A little "lifegain" on the side helps even the score.

but the minus three easily out classes anything travel preparations did. And if you have a white deck the runs him and you don't have creatures out yet... you're doing it wrong. Also, he's an aggressive planeswalker. His high loyalty helps you ignore defending him for a bit.
The way to template an Oblivion Ring style card so as to avoid the perceived problem would be to follow the approach used by Sower of Temptation. I'm not an expert at wording cards, but I think it would come out something like this:

When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, exile target permanent for as long as Oblivion Ring remains on the battlefield.

I don't know if the Comprehensive Rules would need a minor tweak to support this, but it would clearly work mechanically without creating new kinds of memory requirements or rules problems.

(Aside: I'm not entirely in favour of this for reasons I discussed earlier, just pointing out how it could be done.)



It wouldn't work at all, and it would need far more than just a minor tweak to change that.

Only continous effects can have durations, and moving something from one zone to another is a one-shot effect.  It's not possible to set a duration on a zone change; you need a one-shot effect to put it into the zone and another one-shot effect to move it back out of the zone.
The way to template an Oblivion Ring style card so as to avoid the perceived problem would be to follow the approach used by Sower of Temptation. I'm not an expert at wording cards, but I think it would come out something like this:

When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, exile target permanent for as long as Oblivion Ring remains on the battlefield.

I don't know if the Comprehensive Rules would need a minor tweak to support this, but it would clearly work mechanically without creating new kinds of memory requirements or rules problems.

(Aside: I'm not entirely in favour of this for reasons I discussed earlier, just pointing out how it could be done.)



Doesn't the intervening "if" function for the same effect?

"When Oblivion [circular term] enters the battlefield, if Oblivion [circular term] is on the battlefield, exile target nonland permanent."
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
That would work, but the clause (as seen on cards like Stalking Yeti and Animate Dead) is viewed as a particularly ugly one, so they don't like to use it.
Only continous effects can have durations, and moving something from one zone to another is a one-shot effect.

OK, true, enough, but you're thinking too far inside the box there. Control change is, process-wise, exactly isomorphic to zone change in that you have some work to do at the start and some work to do at the end and you need to monitor the end condition somehow (usually via the fact that the card responsible is a permanent, which serves to remind you). If the rules as they currently exist are capable of seeing the former as continuous but not the latter that's an oddity of the current rules, not an indication that there's any reason why it should be so.

(Currently 611.1 defines what continuous effects can do via an explicit list. But in fact the only part of continuous effects needed here is something analogous to 611.2b to allow temporary zone changes to work this way.)

Sign In to post comments