Encounter-based Vancian casting

What if you had a magic user class that truly embraced the Vancian "memorize and forget" concept, but without being tied to spells per day? You would have a number of at-will spells, and a very limited number (say 3) spell slots. You prepare a spell into a slot, and it vanishes when you cast it. But then you can prepare a new spell into a slot whenever you want. Maybe it takes 20 minutes or so to prepare a spell, making spells essentially encounter powers. As you level up, the level of your prepared slots increases, and maybe you can shift a few lower-level spells into your at-will slots.

It seems like this would make balancing the magic user a little easier, since he should reliably get 3 big spells per encounter. It also enhances the versatility of the magic user, since he could prepare any spell he knows, given a little time. It would really feel like you were tied to your spell book, since you would be consulting it constantly through the day.
I think you greatly underestimate the outcome of *increasing* a wizard's versatility.

But more simply put, as a general tendency, Vancian lovers do not like Encounter by any other name, shape, form, or variant.  Now while it's still a perfectly good idea for an optional module (because there are always exceptions), this particular idea seems to be a little too much on the caster-friendly side in my opinion.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

This is all good until you stop thinking about the game as a series of encounters. The wizard will always have a charm spell ready or instantly has a knock or fly or teleport whenever he needs it. just void a slot and fillit when ever you need one. 

For the love of pete people need to stop thinking of D&D in the number of fights they have. encounters include things like buying a new bedroll, talking to a stranger in passing, or opening the out house door and finding a drunk passed out on the crapper. 

Lets just make every spell they can cast an at will spell. Lets just remove all of the checks and balances that keep spell casters in check. We already let them choose the spells they want -bad move- they alredy take so little time to cast that there is little chance to stop them -bad move- they are threatening to give really powerful spells to casters as at will abilities - really bad move- these are not acceptable to all but those power hungry loud mouths who can't accept there are and should be limits on the amount of magic one can use in the course of a day.


For the life of me I can't imagine why a cleric should have an at will attack spell. Take away his armor and weapons and be done with it.
This was a similar idea to what I had, though my plan would make combat spells scaled down from Vancian combat spells, and non-combat spells would be set as Daily spells (or occasionally encounter spells, if they had a long enough duration, that you couldn't just cast, and then prep a new spell in it's place), and, though they could be prepped at any time, they'd take away a slot for the rest of the day, and either caster-class could use them. I probably wouldn't give the caster 3 spells, at least at first, since it seems that they should have to give up a little more to have the utility of preping new spells.

To me Vancian casting may be "checks and balances" on spellcasting, but it's the wrong sort of checks and balances. It's like saying that the President can be in 100% control of the government for a month every July, but it's OK, since after that, they'd have no power for the rest of the year.

I am currently raising funds to run for President in 2016. Too many administrations have overlooked the international menace, that is Carmen Sandiego. I shall devote any and all necessary military resources to bring her to justice.

@Tlantl

"What do you mean, I can't use an encounter power in a bar?!?  There's fifty frickin' encounters seated around me in convenient groups of 6, and a whole slew of them masquerading as locks on the doors upstairs!"  Yah, somewhere along the way they sure did change the definition of 'Encounter', didn't they?

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

The secret way to actually balance spellcasting that nobody wants to admit is to put spellcasting almost entirely in NPC hands.  

If full blown casting classes like Wizards and Clerics were for NPCs only, and the PCs could only play at best, half-casters (like Paladins, Rangers, Bards, or Gishes),  and most of the cool utility spells were rituals anyone (even the Fighter!) could learn, balance issues would be gone and D&D would far more closely match the source material.  I mean, in all honesty, I can't think of a single work of fantasy (not written about D&D, like say Raistlin in Dragonlance) in which the "wizard" isn't an NPC, except the Wizard of Earthsea (which was written deliberately as, essentially, the backstory for an NPC all-powerful wizard type).  You could maybe also make an argument for Star Wars, but that's kind of it, and one could counter that the real wizard, Obi-Wan Kenobi, was an NPC and Luke was a half-caster.  

Otherwise, powerful magical characters like Merlin or Gandalf (and likewise the crafters of powerful magical items) are NPCs--they're just the magical helper figures from the Hero's Journey.  They assist the main characters, but refrain from doing the work for them for some reason, despite unquestionably being capable of it.

The problem is, people want to be Gandalf, but don't want to sit out or serve only to shine the spotlight on the other, less powerful charcters.  If Gandalf was a PC, he'd have taken the damn ring to Mordor himself--he'd have just grabbed it right away, called up an eagle, and gone to Mount Doom in a couple of hours.  If Merlin was a PC, he'd have just Flesh to Stoned Mordred, scryed for the Holy Grail, teleported there and back, then Wished that he was king instead and lived an awesome pampered life. 

Edit: Ok, so, since I never liked Harry Potter, I forgot about it, but my wife who loved it reminded me.  So, there's one bit of source material where the main character is a wizard with grand cosmic powers (but kind of not really since it's set in the modern world and they really just go to a dangerous school, rather than deliberately seeking out monsters to beat up).
I think encounter based Vancian casting not only makes more sense but would actually be more enjoyable and remove most of the problems with regular Vancian casting. As long as spell durations are set to no longer than 1 minute and spells are balanced to assume encounter based usage this would be easy to balance. The wizard would of course have amazing utility but this is what many who clamor for Vancian casting have complained that the 4e wizard lacked. The encounter based Vancian caster would also actually have greater decions to make due to the fact that a spell like flight or invisibility would compete for a fireball spell slot where in 3e a wizard had so many spells that he could easily cast both. Spells should probably only be memorizable during a short rest.
Edit: Ok, so, since I never liked Harry Potter, I forgot about it, but my wife who loved it reminded me.  So, there's one bit of source material where the main character is a wizard with grand cosmic powers (but kind of not really since it's set in the modern world and they really just go to a dangerous school, rather than deliberately seeking out monsters to beat up).

You have to also recognize that this is a rather badly written (sorry Harry Potter fans) story, in terms of any sort of realism. In real life, if there were a spell that would kill people without a doubt, it would work about as well as if everyone were given a gun at birth (well, maybe at 18... lets say they only have the wizarding ability to do so when they're 18), but there are laws that say they can't use it. Would people still shoot each other? Hell yeah! Even worse is the spell that is essentially an unrestricted mind control. I mean if you could force someone to do whatever the hell you wanted, and there's no real way to trace it back to you (see the "some wizards only claimed to be death eaters under the effect of that curse" line. If there were ways to tell, that excuse would be paper thin). And Government would essentially be in shambles, constantly, since it would essentially be a power struggle between approximately equally omnipotent people. And you can essentially forget any sort of subtlety that the wizards have with reguards to Muggles. I mean, if you were 13, and could do all sorts of cool magic, would you really let the "rules" restrict you from getting vengeance on people who picked on you, or impress your muggle friends, or whatever? It would make more sense, if the only wizards were ones with two wizard parents, since they already have their own wizard communities, so it wouldn't be very impressive to them.

Actually a much better series in terms of this type of stuff is this series "The Bartimaeus Trillogy" were essentially all the stuff I bitched about with Harry Potter is fixed. "Wizards" essentially only have one ability: summoning Demons to do their bidding. And these demons are bound with very specific spells, that if the spells are not done exactly correct, the demons will just kill the wizard. As a result, the government is always in a power struggle, since more ambitious wizards will summon stronger demons, and try to spy and/or kill their higher ups. As a result it's usually better to just be in a low-level beurocratic job, since no one will want to kill you. And non-magic users are generally just one fireball away from being crispy french-fries, so they know their place around wizards, as lower class citizens.

... Oh, yeah. This was originally a thread about D&D... um... how to come back on topic... D&D should be more like the above series... 

I am currently raising funds to run for President in 2016. Too many administrations have overlooked the international menace, that is Carmen Sandiego. I shall devote any and all necessary military resources to bring her to justice.

The secret way to actually balance spellcasting that nobody wants to admit is to put spellcasting almost entirely in NPC hands.  

If full blown casting classes like Wizards and Clerics were for NPCs only, and the PCs could only play at best, half-casters (like Paladins, Rangers, Bards, or Gishes),  and most of the cool utility spells were rituals anyone (even the Fighter!) could learn, balance issues would be gone and D&D would far more closely match the source material.  I mean, in all honesty, I can't think of a single work of fantasy (not written about D&D, like say Raistlin in Dragonlance) in which the "wizard" isn't an NPC, except the Wizard of Earthsea (which was written deliberately as, essentially, the backstory for an NPC all-powerful wizard type).  You could maybe also make an argument for Star Wars, but that's kind of it, and one could counter that the real wizard, Obi-Wan Kenobi, was an NPC and Luke was a half-caster.  

Otherwise, powerful magical characters like Merlin or Gandalf (and likewise the crafters of powerful magical items) are NPCs--they're just the magical helper figures from the Hero's Journey.  They assist the main characters, but refrain from doing the work for them for some reason, despite unquestionably being capable of it.

The problem is, people want to be Gandalf, but don't want to sit out or serve only to shine the spotlight on the other, less powerful charcters.  If Gandalf was a PC, he'd have taken the damn ring to Mordor himself--he'd have just grabbed it right away, called up an eagle, and gone to Mount Doom in a couple of hours.  If Merlin was a PC, he'd have just Flesh to Stoned Mordred, scryed for the Holy Grail, teleported there and back, then Wished that he was king instead and lived an awesome pampered life. 

Edit: Ok, so, since I never liked Harry Potter, I forgot about it, but my wife who loved it reminded me.  So, there's one bit of source material where the main character is a wizard with grand cosmic powers (but kind of not really since it's set in the modern world and they really just go to a dangerous school, rather than deliberately seeking out monsters to beat up).



Don't forget Harry Dresden of the Dresden Files.

Wounds Module [updated for Basic]

Proficiency Module

What if you had a magic user class that truly embraced the Vancian "memorize and forget" concept, but without being tied to spells per day? You would have a number of at-will spells, and a very limited number (say 3) spell slots. You prepare a spell into a slot, and it vanishes when you cast it. But then you can prepare a new spell into a slot whenever you want. Maybe it takes 20 minutes or so to prepare a spell, making spells essentially encounter powers. As you level up, the level of your prepared slots increases, and maybe you can shift a few lower-level spells into your at-will slots.

Drop the at-will spells, and I'm sold.  Of course, each of these Vancian-encounter spells would have to be tuned to the level where they were more varied but not more powerful than a melee-type attack (or equivalent martial maneuver).

It seems like this would make balancing the magic user a little easier, since he should reliably get 3 big spells per encounter. It also enhances the versatility of the magic user, since he could prepare any spell he knows, given a little time. It would really feel like you were tied to your spell book, since you would be consulting it constantly through the day.

The best part is that nobody needs to play to the wizard's schedule - no "calling it a night early" so the wizard can ready the appropriate spell that you all need.  Granted, you could always call that "poor adventure design" if only the wizard can open the way, but these things do happen.... not uncommonly.



The metagame is not the game.

The secret way to actually balance spellcasting that nobody wants to admit is to put spellcasting almost entirely in NPC hands.  

If full blown casting classes like Wizards and Clerics were for NPCs only, and the PCs could only play at best, half-casters (like Paladins, Rangers, Bards, or Gishes),  and most of the cool utility spells were rituals anyone (even the Fighter!) could learn, balance issues would be gone and D&D would far more closely match the source material.  I mean, in all honesty, I can't think of a single work of fantasy (not written about D&D, like say Raistlin in Dragonlance) in which the "wizard" isn't an NPC, except the Wizard of Earthsea (which was written deliberately as, essentially, the backstory for an NPC all-powerful wizard type).  You could maybe also make an argument for Star Wars, but that's kind of it, and one could counter that the real wizard, Obi-Wan Kenobi, was an NPC and Luke was a half-caster.  

Otherwise, powerful magical characters like Merlin or Gandalf (and likewise the crafters of powerful magical items) are NPCs--they're just the magical helper figures from the Hero's Journey.  They assist the main characters, but refrain from doing the work for them for some reason, despite unquestionably being capable of it.

The problem is, people want to be Gandalf, but don't want to sit out or serve only to shine the spotlight on the other, less powerful charcters.  If Gandalf was a PC, he'd have taken the damn ring to Mordor himself--he'd have just grabbed it right away, called up an eagle, and gone to Mount Doom in a couple of hours.  If Merlin was a PC, he'd have just Flesh to Stoned Mordred, scryed for the Holy Grail, teleported there and back, then Wished that he was king instead and lived an awesome pampered life. 

Edit: Ok, so, since I never liked Harry Potter, I forgot about it, but my wife who loved it reminded me.  So, there's one bit of source material where the main character is a wizard with grand cosmic powers (but kind of not really since it's set in the modern world and they really just go to a dangerous school, rather than deliberately seeking out monsters to beat up).



Don't forget Harry Dresden of the Dresden Files.




Since you brought him up; 

I think Harry Dresden should be the design goal for an RPG wizard. Harry knows two types of magic - Evocations and Thaumaturgy.

-Evocations (not the school) are basically Harry's bread n butter in a combat situation, and usually involve energy of some kind - he creates fireballs and such with "Fuego!" and conjures the winds with "Ventas Servitas". These are his go-to spells, of which he knows maybe 5 or so, and abandons some for others as the series goes on. After he's blown through his magical reserves, they tire him, dreadfully, drawing on his life-force and I think some sort of exertion/HP loss/Endurance check would represent this well.

-Thaumaturgy is ritual magic, utility magic, scrying, and the like. It almost always requires a magic circle and some time to cast.

If we went with a strong Combat/noncombat seperation, a la the Dresden Files, we'd have a good casting system.


You mean like spells and rituals?

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

You mean like spells and rituals?



Something like that, yeah. But I think the whole "per-day" nomenclature could be supplanted by a different system.
I've used other systems in DnD before.

There were options for point based and even some HP sacrifice options.

The problem I find with these is it actually gives access to more of the powerful magics than a slotted system by its nature.

The MP system just encourages using the most powerful spells and shying from the lower ones.

Sacrificing HP would require a complete rework of the Mage to be useful without creating a pile of dead mages.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

I strongly agree with the idea of dropping Daily mechanics and replacing them with "encounter" mechanics (refresh abilities between short rests). I think it is more realistic that a magic user will be able to use a larger number of spells in a day, but not all at once, and I think it is more fun to have these tactical options available for each fight.

I do not think this will necessarily make wizards OP, nor that it would necessarily make combat less deadly. Obviously, spells which are allowed on an encounter basis will have different balancing than ones on a daily basis, and the real limiting factor for a party's sustainability from encounter to encounter should be Hit Points / Hit Dice (or healing surges, or whatever similar mechanic ends up in the game), not magic spells per day.
I personally disagree but your logic is in no way flawed.

I feel that a daily option should be the base and am highly against any encounter based mechanics at all.

I far prefer the current at will + daily.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Magic done this way would indeed be more Vancian.

I approve more of this than the dailies... I can see fighters with a reserve of fatigue that limits them each encounter too.

 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I personally disagree but your logic is in no way flawed. I feel that a daily option should be the base and am highly against any encounter based mechanics at all. I far prefer the current at will + daily.

I dislike both daily and encounter based mechanics (though I dislike encounter based slightly less).

I'd rather everything be reworked to be at-will (with powerful utility being ritual-based, possibly with unique or difficult ingredients).  If an ability absolutely has to have a "long" recharge, I'd rather it be "per adventure" or something like that, so that people push on until a natural breaking point, rather than stopping immediately when they're out.

It could work no doubt. 4e proves that encounter based options are mechanically viable.

I personally don't care for an encounter based system though.

I'd rather see spell casting limited by potential side effects or backfire when disrupted than balance the game around encounters.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

I could see an at will/utility system working but the style change would be equally as drastic as the 3e-4e change with the effect of further fracturing the fan base.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

You can't do this for the simple reason is that all healing powers need to have a daily limit. Encounter healing just becomes I rest ad heal rest and heal creating infinite Healing loops. And I dont want to see healing powers like in 4E, they only wprk if you Helaing strke that enemy first or bards healing it only workds when the monster attacks. These were wierd mechanics that made no sense, it broke my suspention of dispelief in a fantasy game.
And wands of infinite healing in 3e were better how?

HP in 4e worked for the first time because healing surges gave a daily cap to total HP while in combat healing was generally quite limited. It was the abundance of surge less healing that led to the problem of parties being "too hard to kill". Personally I think the game would be better with HP recovering fully after a fight through first aid and healing rituals with in combat healing being mostly removed.
I agree with Lawolf about healing: Make in combat healing take a standard action (then it's a choice between dealing some damage to bring the fight to a close faster, or heal someone who is close to death to draw out the fight longer but make it safer). Out of combat healing can be full. HP can be like they're described now, endurance, and then injuries could be handled with some disease-like mechanic for those who want a more gritty game.

Poe's Law is alive and well.

Disagree completely.

No second mechanic is necessary and you already have far more healing as is in the playtest than is really needed for a party from 1-3 when you have overnight heal all. Making it 1 hour heal all is a step far away from where I would like to see things go.

Grittier should lower the already present "natural" healing.

I think changing from d8 to hit die of character being healed is a good idea though (something did right by tying healing spells to surges)

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Eliminating the “per day” mechanic from the game, helps the rest of the game balance with each other better.

I feel the biggest mistake 4e made was to balance classes by giving the Fighter “per day” mechanics.
It only helps if you want an encounter based system.

I don't.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

It only helps if you want an encounter based system. I don't.

 

The non-daily mechanics also helps players who dont want an encounter system, by being able to balance better with non-encounter options, such as atwill-only, mana, or so on.



Regarding vancian, instead of “per day”, spell prep can be “per 1-hour rest”. So theres still need for resource management across encounters.
But many of us actually enjoy the daily resource which allows a character to have a powerful but limited option.

The problem isn't the system alone. It is allowing characters with this limitation to force the party to revolve around it.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

The per 1 hour rest is really just an encounter based system with a defined limit between when players will choose to have encounters and solves neither the daily issue nor the issue of those of us who dislike an encounter based style of play.

I can see this working for others but having this knock the daily power style from the game is not desirable at all to me.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

But many of us actually enjoy the daily resource which allows a character to have a powerful but limited option. The problem isn't the system alone. It is allowing characters with this limitation to force the party to revolve around it.



All it takes is those characters to be set by the system as the hands down biggest guns... after which the game just said this is the best strategy.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I never had wands of infinite healing in my game and the 50 charges of a wand would either be blown through and then missed for a long time or greatly cherished and used only when things were dire because I wasn't giving them out like candy and because those who crafted magical items were not willing to continue falling behind inexperience and level just to heal the group.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

I like more climactic powers dailies are the current method of getting that ...  I dont want the awesome big moves to go away but I want equitable access to big boom for all archetypes.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I can see this working for others but having this knock the daily power style from the game is not desirable at all to me.

Would you accept a different, long term, but less-arbitrary-than-a-day limit?  Would you accept a "once per adventure" mechanic?  I'd prefer that much more than "once per day," though my ideal would be for literally everything to be either an at-will or a ritual, for which gathering the materials is an adventure in and of itself.
and because those who crafted magical items were not willing to continue falling behind inexperience and level just to heal the group.


Based on what I have heard lower level characters even just one level get experience points faster... tadah you catch up and are never more than half a level away.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Garthanos,

Groups with that mentality find themselves dead.

I am not going to base my adventure on such a style of play, nor am I going to encourage it.

They might be able to find ways around it when necessary but they will also find that taking a couple of extra days to rest because if "nova Mage" tactics will see the evil villan killing the person they were meant to rescue or allowing him to complete his plan of assassinating the king or whatever the adventure is designed around.

controlling when they rest is a party decision. Deciding the consequences is a DM descision.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Garthanos,

I can respect the desire to have such options for fighters/rogues but with less at will power.

I however prefer the all at will fighter so I want that option as well. I like warlocks in 3e also because they are an at will only caster.

I don't want the fighter dailies to break into lava swims as suggested in other threads but I know you aren't of that school either.

I only use that rule if I am starting players below the rest of the group since that was its intended function.

Those who place themselves there get no such bonus.

Those I level drain do because adding that element was a DM choice.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Garthanos, Groups with that mentality find themselves dead. I am not going to base my adventure on such a style of play, nor am I going to encourage it. They might be able to find ways around it when necessary but they will also find that taking a couple of extra days to rest because if "nova Mage" tactics will see the evil villan killing the person they were meant to rescue or allowing him to complete his plan of assassinating the king or whatever the adventure is designed around. controlling when they rest is a party decision. Deciding the consequences is a DM descision.


Yup there are failures besides death but when death was such a predominant and easy failure it over-shadowed all others. (The nova mage trivializes encounters making them less dangerous for the party)

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

You misunderstand. It was the groups who nova cast and tried to hole up that died.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

But many of us actually enjoy the daily resource which allows a character to have a powerful but limited option. The problem isn't the system alone. It is allowing characters with this limitation to force the party to revolve around it.



The per 1 hour rest is really just an encounter based system with a defined limit between when players will choose to have encounters and solves neither the daily issue nor the issue of those of us who dislike an encounter based style of play. I can see this working for others but having this knock the daily power style from the game is not desirable at all to me.



Remember, many of us actually despise the daily resource.

The 1-hour rest seems to be a workable compromise that both the lovers and the haters can live with.



With the 1-hour rest, vancian style will continue most often to be a defacto daily resource. Players will wake up after a 7-hour or so rest, and then spend an additional hour to prep spells anyway.

Usually, these spells will last whatever encounters the players has for that day. Eventually, they go to sleep. Repeat.

Less often, the day becomes so busy, the vancian style runs out of spells, and must find a safe place to prep spells again. On these days, the 1-hour prep helps the vancian classes keep up with the other styles of classes, especially keep up with the atwill style Fighter.

The 1-hour rest eliminates the problem of the 5-minute workday, once and for all.



It seems to me, a 1-hour rest will reduce the number of times the optimizer players will “go nova”. The problem with “per day”, is the daily mechanic is so extreme that the response to it is equally extreme. Simply exit the adventure, sleep, and reenter tomorrow at full power. However with a “per 1-hour rest”, it becomes thinkable to go nova and remain in the adventure, while re-prepping spells. However, the adventure may or may not have a safe place where the vancian character can concentrate for a full hour. The DM might send monsters to attack the party, bypass the party guards, hit the Wizard, thus likely disturb concentration. Therefore, vancian players have to adjudicate whether it is worth the risk of burning off spells or not. Their assessment actually draws them deeper into the narrative situation. This is excellent for all play styles.
But your system requires lowering the power of those daily resources otherwise the class with the most daily resources becomes exponentially MORE powerful and that seems to be one of the greatest complaints against daily focused spell casters to begin with.

You are helping enhance the thing you hate most and are failing to take that into account.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Lower powered spells is a good thing Val. The 3e wizard could easily cast 15 spells by level 7 and over 20 by level 10. At 20 spells per day the wizard has more than enough to cast all day long. So the 5e wizard should strive to have weaker spells because Vancian casting basically turns into at-will casting by the time you get 10-15 spells per day. So either Vancian spells should be made weaker or the number should be greatly reduced.

The 1 hour recovery method actually makes a lot of sense given what Vancian casting means. A Vancian caster can spend an hour whenever they want to memorize spells. This allows the wizard to keep up with te rest of the party while still having a reduced number of spell slots and reduced power of spells.
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