Took Enemy Fire in Edition Wars

I’ll tell ya what, I’ve read about ‘edition wars’ here plenty, but it’s a for-real thing. I wasn’t at Origins a whole hour before somebody said something to me.

6 or 8 of us were in line to play test D&D Next. This one guy’s friend stopped by and made some knucklehead joke to him. The guy said something like “Get out of here demon spawn… (heh) like Fourth Edition.”

OK, my game group and I have been playing 4E since it came out. I even got my nephew and his friends into gaming with 4E and now they play more than I do.

So there we are, my nephew, his two buddies, my friend and me and we all heard it. I decided to use Diplomacy instead of Intimidate and basically paraphrased the previous paragraph.

He backed down - basically said he tried 4E and it wasn’t for him, and we played D&D Next and everything worked out OK. The guy turned out to be real cool, and I’d be glad to game with him again anytime.

Less than 12 hours later in the Exhibit Hall, we’re talking to two D20 Girls and one of them takes a swipe at 4E. Now, I’m not gonna get into it with some girl half my age, wearing a miniskirt and cat ears, so I just told her we had a fun time with 4E, and if you’re having fun you’re doing it right, right?

No. She just kept comin’ at 4E. I don’t really remember what her problems were with it, but I asked about her modeling career and she forgot all about how bad 4E was.

So now I get why WOTC is scrambling to reunite the two camps, and I wish ‘em a lotta luck.
Yeah it is tough.

If I point out flaws in 3e I'm alright by most here but I point out 4e flaws and I'm attacked for it.

The door swings both ways on this one.

There is just such a major divide mechanically and style wise between the systems.

But the 1e and 2e stalwarts are no less guilty.

Heck even I respond less than diplomatically when hit by the crossfire.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

This isn't new, nor is it unique to this corner of nerd-dom. I've seen absolutely nasty fights over comic book, video game, or televison franchises at various conventions.

Best thing to do is ignore it, unless they say something arrogant and false, then you cut them down to size.
Heck even I respond less than diplomatically when hit by the crossfire.


While I've never experienced edition warring in person, i.e. IRL, I've been through it twice now on these forums.  A lot of us are prone to overreact, or assume motives that aren't there, after being exposed to the rabid edition warring online.  I'm convinced that surviving an edition war is the gamer version of PTSD.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Heck even I respond less than diplomatically when hit by the crossfire.


While I've never experienced edition warring in person, i.e. IRL, I've been through it twice now on these forums.  A lot of us are prone to overreact, or assume motives that aren't there, after being exposed to the rabid edition warring online.  I'm convinced that surviving an edition war is the gamer version of PTSD.


Keep looking for the "like" button on this post...

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

Yeah it is tough. If I point out flaws in 3e I'm alright by most here but I point out 4e flaws and I'm attacked for it. The door swings both ways on this one. There is just such a major divide mechanically and style wise between the systems. But the 1e and 2e stalwarts are no less guilty. Heck even I respond less than diplomatically when hit by the crossfire.



That depends on what you claim those flaws are- if you want to say the math is all screwed up forcing feat taxes I'd have no problem with that.  Want to bash the "economy" they have I'll weigh in as well.  Want to attack the magic item built into character advancement- you'll get no complaints from me.  Skill challenges, loooong boring combats at times, class or race bloat without adequate support etc etc

4e Wasn't perfect and I'd happily see some of the problems fixed.

Want to trot out "all classes are the same", "fighters shouldn't get cool stuff because well MAGIC", healing surges/martial healing are the devil etc etc ad naseum that I see all the time then i've no use for your statements

Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived.

You haven't lived.


(Which isn't to say it's a D&D specific issue; this individual will say the same thing about anything within his range of "knowledge" if he dislikes it.  The moral of the story being: Awesome people do awesome things.)
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Just add all of stoloc's acceptable and unacceptable complaints together and thats a good start on my list.

I think the thing that stung was they slapped the name D&D on it.  If they'd called it something different no one would have had a war.

These boards and the ever ongoing war though has taught me some patience and the skill of writing like a near lawyer all the time.  

Hopefully 5e will bind up the wounds and move us forward.  We can only hope.  Hopefully we won't just get another front in the wars.

 
Just add all of stoloc's acceptable and unacceptable complaints together and thats a good start on my list.

I think the thing that stung was they slapped the name D&D on it.  If they'd called it something different no one would have had a war.


Maybe it's the gamer PTSD talking, but it sounds like you're saying 4e wasn't D&D.  If you are, then I'm sure you'll create another front for the edition war at your convenience.  If not, then you propably should have phrased that better.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Just add all of stoloc's acceptable and unacceptable complaints together and thats a good start on my list.

I think the thing that stung was they slapped the name D&D on it.  If they'd called it something different no one would have had a war.


Maybe it's the gamer PTSD talking, but it sounds like you're saying 4e wasn't D&D.  If you are, then I'm sure you'll create another front for the edition war at your convenience.  If not, then you propably should have phrased that better.



I guess my point and perhaps I wasn't as diplomatic as I should have been but 4e broke too much from what D&D has always been.  Not sure where that line is at but a lot of people felt like it was a game that didn't share many roots with the original.  I didn't say no roots.   So I guess a game that makes the radical changes that 4e made went too far to just be an edition of an earlier game.   It offered a style of play very different from what had gone before (good or bad depending on the person of course).  
Yes yes, the standard "If they had just done exactly what I like, instead of what other people like, then nobody would have had to be a jerk about it."

It's not an attitude specific to D&D (or tabletops) - not by a longshot - but man, there sure are a lot of those people in the gaming communities.


Like I said, I have one in my extended family when it comes to tabletop gaming (I also have another - my brother-in-law - when it comes to electronic gaming).
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
My problem with this edition warring...is that people don't think with their heads when they decide to throw crap at other editions...I may looks like i throw alot of crap at D&DNext and older editions because of that...but my main reasoning for doing that, is provoke an answer...i want to know...why

So far...all the changes and things returning from older editions for Next...have no reason for it, beside nostalgia.  I am from a country were we don't have a tradition of tabletop rpgs...hell i have yet to see any kind of tabletop RPG material sold here on mexico...Nostalgia means nothing to me.

The way i look at D&DNext, i try to look at it, as the eyes from someone who haven't played any tabletop rpg...a average gamer paraphs.  How to get him drawn into the game, learn the rules and to play, etc... And this is were D&DNext fails completly, it overcomplicate stuff that would make newcomers harder to learn to play/dm by themselves, because everything seems to be designed to attract veterans of older editions, people that got used to DM Fiat, Quadratic Wizards/Lineal Fighters, etc... new players doesn't know that, alot of players got "initiatited by someone else", not by themselves...  

This is what 4e did right, it was easy to learn, it took me a 1/10 of the time to learn most of 4e than it took me to learn 3.0/3.5...and i don't want to imagine how long it would have took me to learn the convulted mess that is AD&D...Most of the things that were removed from 4e that are brought back for next, have no reason to return beside nostalgia, things that make things more complicated that it should be.

Most 4e players i know, learned 4e by themselves, not by proxy.  That's the reason i am ok with essentials...because it's a great way to introduce 4e to new players, without them being overwhelmed with too many options at the beggining for some classes (and it also brought my favorite type of class design on 4e, the quasi-essentials like the warpriest, hexblade, blackguard, sentinel, who have alot of potential to continue to expand and are very modular in design), i don't see Essentials as a way to please gognards, i see it as a entry level 4e for new players.

3.0/3.5 players didn't had that benefit, micronaging class levels and skill points would be a complete nightmare to newcomers, even more with Monte Cook's mentality of filling the system with trap options "to reward players with mastery of the system".  Classes on 4e are easy to understand, play and build, it's a very transparent character building system.

Having two completly diferent process of making an "attack".  Attack Roll vs  AC and having saving throw to resist magic...it's two diferent process of doing basically the same...hit or miss/resist, it's a overcomplication of something and it's a extra step someone have to learn about the games rules, being the biggest example.

Going back to no level on monsters...new DMs would have a harder time to tune encounters, while on 4e it was easy...throw things that are of their level.

What's next...remove the greatest improvement of 3e to D&D? The "rolling higher is always better".  Bring back the, "i roll a 20 on the d20, that's a success, right? No, that check is better when you roll low"

And I am sorry for this rant...i am getting sick of "gognards" coming here, to aplaud things that would make it harder for new players to learn/play, just because on their egoist/selfish mind, they don't care...they already knew that system from 20 years ago...

Now my rant at 4e...it have a huge chance to introduce the game to new players...but wotc botched it.  DDI promises that were never delivered, ways to attract/reach new players to D&D (videogames, marketing, etc...), like i have mentioned before...it's almost impossible to get D&D stuff in alot of countries. Avaibility is the biggest problem wotc have...they have a huge potential international market they refuse to reach...Hasbro exist in Latinamerica...why can't Hasbro & WotC bring D&D to Latinamerica and promote it?  The fan backlash from 4e won't exist here...because barely anybody played D&D at all...or any tabletop RPG, it would have been a huge chance to expand it's market.

And now the huge decline of 4e in the past few years was mostly because of the low quantity of content that wotc have been delivering for 4e in the last few years, the reason i cancelled my DDI, wasn't because i don't play 4e...i cancelled because...

1. Silverlight Character Builder it's inferior in any way shape or form to the offline builder
2. DDI Virtual Tabletop never got out of Beta...Free thirdparty virtual tabletops beats the DDI one by alot...i play online D&D on one of those, having macros/scripts for powers, dices & maths makes encounters fly by on 4e.
3. Dragon/Dungeon magazine content per month, when a few years ago, dragon and dungeon magazines had like 4 times the amount of content that it now have, it was exiting, because chances were that on every month there will be something you would be really exited...this is no longer the case anymore.

We hardly buy any D&D books...i order for me to buy a D&D book, i need to cross the US Border and drive for a couple of hours to San Diego to get to a store that sell D&D material (they are suppose to be sold on Target too, and there is a target 20 minutes away from the border...but i have never seen D&D stuff on it outside of 2 packs of minis i saw 2 years ago).

And now my rant ends...i hope somebody understand my frustration with WotC and how they are handling D&DNext now... 
Howdy folks,

Just a gentle reminder to not have an edition war in a thread about edition wars.  Seems kind of silly, doesn't it?

On a more serious note, edition warring is considered forum disruption in these forums and is against the Code of Conduct.

Thanks.    

All around helpful simian

Howdy folks,

Just a gentle reminder to not have an edition war in a thread about edition wars.  Seems kind of silly, doesn't it?

On a more serious note, edition warring is considered forum disruption in these forums and is against the Code of Conduct.

Thanks.    




It may seem ironic to EW in an EW topic, but when I first saw the title for it I thought, "This isn't going to end well".



Anyways, where this kind of thing also bugs me is Console Wars. I'm sure most of us have sunk hundreds of dollars into this most recent generation of video game consoles, and if you talk to anyone about video games it's unavoidable. I just don't understand why people have to be so argumentative about something as silly as games...
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/Tom_Shambles92/DrSeuss.jpg http://www.last.fm/user/Pogo92 Endorsed by the C.C.A.A. Booty Patrol. "If all the classes can compete on equal footing in a combat situation then it becomes less about "Which is the best" and more about "Which conveys the character I want to play"." - Areleth
I am sad to say I live in an edition warzone. My wife hasn't enjoyed D and D since they got rid of THAC0 and refuses to play 4e. Our roomate and her constantly bombard me with how awful 4e is because it is a videogame etc. I've gotten to the point where I just don't say anything to anyone. 
I think the thing that stung was they slapped the name D&D on it.  If they'd called it something different no one would have had a war.
 


Clearly you didn't see some of the reactions when 3e was released. There will always be people wanting to start an edition war. It could have been 3.75 and people would still have cried that it wasn't D&D. You can't please everyone.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
And this problem will never die down.  Even now, it seems 5e is drawing conflict (despite being 5% -10% complete, with many drafts down the line).  I'll admit, I got sucked into Edition smashing during the dawn and early years of 4th.  I tried it later, enjoyed it a lot, and play it with one of my home groups.  However, it's not my automatic preference.  I prefer 3.5, but this is just me.  One thing I've noticed here and there is bashing 3.5 with equally pejorative titles and phrases, but edition warriors come in all shapes, sizes, and editions.  But, there's a rational (and subjective)explaination for this conflict.  Most of these issues end up in the grey, as we're a world made by its opinions.  Now, perhaps it's a phase for some.  They might give what they decry a try, meet a good group, and maybe rethink their ignorance.  Maybe they'll realize that it's a good game, not for them, and move on.  Perhaps the problem is formed in human nature itself.  We see it in another fandoms all the time *cough Doctor Who!*


Clearly you didn't see some of the reactions when 3e was released. There will always be people wanting to start an edition war. It could have been 3.75 and people would still have cried that it wasn't D&D. You can't please everyone.



Yup.  Folks said, "This is D20 Fantasy, not D&D", "It plays like Diablo", "It's about min-maxing and collecting abilities (feats)", etc... 
It's the same old thing with a different coat of paint.

Crazed undead horror posing as a noble and heroic forum poster!

 

 

Some good pointers for the fellow hobbyist!:

  • KEEP D&D ALIVE, END EDITION WARS!
  • RESPECT PEOPLES' PREFERENCES
  • JUST ENJOY THE GAME!
Just add all of stoloc's acceptable and unacceptable complaints together and thats a good start on my list.

I think the thing that stung was they slapped the name D&D on it.  If they'd called it something different no one would have had a war.


Maybe it's the gamer PTSD talking, but it sounds like you're saying 4e wasn't D&D.  If you are, then I'm sure you'll create another front for the edition war at your convenience.  If not, then you propably should have phrased that better.



I guess my point and perhaps I wasn't as diplomatic as I should have been but 4e broke too much from what D&D has always been.  Not sure where that line is at but a lot of people felt like it was a game that didn't share many roots with the original.  I didn't say no roots.   So I guess a game that makes the radical changes that 4e made went too far to just be an edition of an earlier game.   It offered a style of play very different from what had gone before (good or bad depending on the person of course).  



And I think you hit the nail on the head. What D&D has, is, used to be, etc... is completely subjective to each individual. That individual then goes and finds other individuals that share the same ideas and likes and plays a game they ALL enjoy. But you add in the voices of 10, 20, 100, or 10,000 people (like Message Boards here) who might all be looking for something different or have strong beliefs that sway one way or the other and your  going to create problems. The fan-base didn't split this bad during the transition between 2E and 3E because Social Media, Message Boards, Forums, and public outlets were nearly as popular or robust as it is today in my opinion. Add in the fact that another company took over the almost identical package of the older system and kept it going alive and it's not a big shocker we're looking at 5E five years down the road. I don't think the change of editions and mechanics are nearly the majority of reasons the fan-base is so polarized today.

Criticism can be aimed at a system and I think more people are willing to talk and debate mechanics of the game so long as those opinions are based in mostly facts. For example, complaining that it's not right that a Paladin has a few Charisma-based class features that it almost forces a player to use Charisma for everything instead of Strength is pretty valid IMO. What isn't is saying that the Paladin is no longer tied to Alignment and that makes the class worse or the idea of Martial daily powers has no basis in reality and breaks verisimilitude, yet when the same elements are then pointed out in that person's favorite edition.....it's glossed over or people say "Well I never used that in my games." which closes the door on discourse.


As for Real Life EW, I've only encountered it a few times in the past 4 years. One was the classes "WoW on paper", "all Rollplaying", "dumbed down" jargon that's spewed out with absolutley no identifying reasons that's often based on hear-say. The other was someone who read the first few chapters of the PHB and said "no thanks, not my kind of game". Again, it's hard to take criticism from these people with any actual understanding because 9/10 their complaints are all subjective in nature and not really about the "rules".
Not to play armchair psychologist...

In many, many fandoms, D&D included, fans often wrap a part of their identity up with the thing they are a fan of.  Thus, an attack on their favored edition is taken as an attack against the fan.

Take a look at Star Wars fans when George Lucas revised the original trilogy or released the prequel trilogy.

DC comics fans when they rebooted their universe (again...and again).

Lord of the Rings fans when the movies came out.

Star Trek fans when the reboot movie came out.

World of Darkness fans when they ended the old World of Darkness and started the new one.

The list goes on and on.

Being a fan of something often goes further than the casual level for many people.  They derive a sense of comfort and security from it that goes beyond logic and math and objectivity.                

All around helpful simian

Not to play armchair psychologist...



Don't worry, I was about to myself, lol...  Trying to use "scientific research" to probe fandom.  And what you said is pretty much true.  When someone discovers and finds attachment to a "cultural artifact" (I gotta thank my Soc. prof for that term), they are reluctant to see it altered from the expectations they first encountered.  The power of opinions... the blessing of sentience, the curse of potential ignorance...

Crazed undead horror posing as a noble and heroic forum poster!

 

 

Some good pointers for the fellow hobbyist!:

  • KEEP D&D ALIVE, END EDITION WARS!
  • RESPECT PEOPLES' PREFERENCES
  • JUST ENJOY THE GAME!
To be completely fair, while edition-bashing isn't really useful, or conducive to conversation (or rather, conversation that anyone wants to be a part of), I really think complaning - loudly, at times - has a proven track record to have a strong influence on WotC's approaches to D&D.

They release 3e.  People complain.
They release 3.5, which addresses some of the loudest complaints.  People complain.
They release lots of "experimental" options in supplements during the later years of 3.5, which address many of the loudest complaints.  People complain.
They release 4e, which addresses some of the loudest complaints about 3.X.  People complain.
They release constant errata, which addresses some of the loudest complaints.  People complain.
They release Essentials, which addresses some of the loudest complaints about 4e.  People complain.
They test the first round playtest build for 5e, which addresses some of the loudest complaints about 4e.  People complain.
They test the first public playtest build for 5e, which addresses some of the loudest complaints about 4e and the first round playtest build.  People complain.

It's hard not to see their approach to the game as inherently reactionary, though that's not really a bad thing, and it's kind of the only real way to do it.  But it does make it seem kind of schizophrenic in design, because the changes rarely seem focused on making sure that the people who are happy with the game now are still happy with it.

It's also why the "public playtest" idea is a really good idea, for them - it should let them work through a few itterations of the "Release, Complain, Revise, Release" cycle, before they commit to putting the products on the shelf.

They release Psionics Handbook.  People complain.
They release Expanded Psionics Handbook, which addresses some of the loudest complaints about the Psionics Handbook (and updates it to the totally-not-a-new-edition edition).  People complain.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)

Take a look at Star Wars fans when George Lucas revised the original trilogy or released the prequel trilogy.



I've loved Star Wars since that day in '77 when I first saw it.

I've no problem with Lucas making additional episodes, be they good/bad/in-between.
I don't even have a problem with him releasing various versions of them.  Directors cuts & special editions aren't a SW exclusive.

What I have a problem with is that unlike with other "directors cuts" the original versions aren't available.  They've been essentially overwritten.
See, I'm a fan of being able to watch movies/shows etc in the original format they were released in.   A certain aspect ratio, Color/B&W, sequence of actions, etc.  I don't even like it when the edit a film for TV!
And then add in his hypocrasy of critizing Turner  (Go George!  Give him Hell!) for colorizing B&W movies while altering his own (Wait, WT*??!  Didn't you just blast Turner?  At least he was only adding color!)....
I think the thing that stung was they slapped the name D&D on it.  If they'd called it something different no one would have had a war.
 


Clearly you didn't see some of the reactions when 3e was released. There will always be people wanting to start an edition war. It could have been 3.75 and people would still have cried that it wasn't D&D. You can't please everyone.



This particular argument that 3e was as rejected as 4e is one we've had pretty often.  I really believe you are very wrong but until wizards comes out and shows us the numbers we'll just have to disagree.   But I REALLY disagree. Like windstorm to hurricane disagree.   The boards are always hot.  They'll be hot when 5e hits the stands.  What I'm talking about is Joe D&D player on the street.   How many stuck with D&D and how many left it?  I think by that standard 4e was far more rejected than any prior edition.   You can theorize about why that is - more technology, better communication, a third party, etc...  but it happened.   I will though say that I believe at least many of the 4e people who stayed liked it far more so there is that.   It's why the divide is so wide.

In my own area,  I see as many 2e games as 4e (neither show up much).   3.5e (NOT Pathfinder) has more groups.   Just add Pathfinder on top of that.   I know other areas are different and that 4e is doing about as well as everything else.  

I seriously doubt at the dawn of 3e that you would have had the experience the OP had at a convention.   Nowadays at a con you can throw a figurative match up in the air and have a full raging forest fire of contention very easily.   

I know you are going to say it's all anecdotal.  But these boards are what you are using to provide your own viewpoint and I think they are a very unreliable measure of the numbers for any position.   These boards cater to those who have strong opinions and like to debate.  I think it's very valuable to WOTC because despite the hundreds of posts of pure dreck, they occasionally get a jewel.   So minority views have much stronger support than they do in the world.   And I'm not saying liking 4e is a minority view.  I'm just saying that some things on these boards are.

@Crazy_Monkey
I agree wholeheartedly.  I watched the Star Trek reboot but I consider it non-canon for me.  I strongly dislike the way they play loose and free with the Star Trek history and technology as it suits their script.  

I didn't mind the Star Wars prequels but I thought they were not as good a movies and they didn't live up to the backstory.   I own them though.








 
Emerikol, I am begging you.  Heed the VCL's advice.  Don't engage in edition wars in a thread about edition wars.  Stop.  Please.
I don't understand edition warring, mostly because if I've played AD&D, 3rd, 4th (and will play D&D Next) it is because I do like to change how to play but to still play D&D whatever. I'm not the kind of person who can play the same game for many years.

What I understand whatsoever is the frustration that one can get when one spend a lot of money to buy all the expensive books of one edition and then after a few years they all become irrelevant and depreciated. Maybe is it part of that so called 'collectible tabletop RPG' that D&D is since, ever, but the simple solution to that has always been to share the books cost between friends - though I've seen a lot of people who believed that in order to play you have to possess your own player's books.

In that matter, I understand how the 4th edition books were a serious deal breaker for a lot of people since the 4th gameplay was so much different from previous editions that you had to love it (and I mean seriously love it) to buy the books. In fact the real change in some people's mind is that 4th edition wasn't anymore a casual game, you had to invest into it more than ever. Hence the MMO feel that many people have had. My point of view is that D&D has always had the two sides of the coin, it can be as casual or hardcore as you want it, and it is one of its fiercest strength.
Good point to WotC who tried to reverse the machine with 4th Essential, but it was a bit late for my country (France) and none of these books were translated since the game died well before. Maybe some of you don't know or care about other countries a lot I suppose but WotC can thank the US retailer stores because they're the one who saved their game, with the help of the DDI - not all the countries had that chance. The crushing stake for us was the lack of supply of translated adventures - we had "only" the shadowfell keep campaign, no 3rd party adventures creators and no translations for all the stuff that was given for free to english speaking players.

(On a personal note, my friends and I had always made 100% original worlds and adventures. But on a commercial note, a game don't sell as well when there is not much support of it beside one official campaign. Hence the US retailer stores and DDI saving D&D 4th for you.)

With D&D next, I'm happy and proud to see that WotC are going to a place where old books can gain a second youth, with this modularity approach to game design. These old books won't be usable 100% vanilla and will necessitate hard work from their owners but at the very least, what people really need is to feel that somewhat they could do that. In that way, they feel that the game isn't so much different from the previous editions but then again a little new and then can happily purchase the new products.

Ah, gamers are conservative people always looking for novelty.
Emerikol, I am begging you.  Heed the VCL's advice.  Don't engage in edition wars in a thread about edition wars.  Stop.  Please.



I thought I was observing the state of the war on a thread devoted to the edition war.  I did not intend to offend any fan of any edition.

Less than 12 hours later in the Exhibit Hall, we’re talking to two D20 Girls and one of them takes a swipe at 4E. Now, I’m not gonna get into it with some girl half my age, wearing a miniskirt and cat ears, so I just told her we had a fun time with 4E, and if you’re having fun you’re doing it right, right?

No. She just kept comin’ at 4E. I don’t really remember what her problems were with it, but I asked about her modeling career and she forgot all about how bad 4E was.




Did you get her number?   If you didn't number close on that HB then what's the point?




I live in a nice rural backwoods place in southwest virginia. 

Edition wars are nothing compaired to the looks I get just for playing D&D, and some of the things i've been called.

Just be happy you don't have someone try to save your soul because you play a game, although I probly don't help matters when I try to troll em after the second attempt.
Why'd you post this here as well as rpg.net?

forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?634909-Took...

Less than 12 hours later in the Exhibit Hall, we’re talking to two D20 Girls and one of them takes a swipe at 4E. Now, I’m not gonna get into it with some girl half my age, wearing a miniskirt and cat ears, so I just told her we had a fun time with 4E, and if you’re having fun you’re doing it right, right?

No. She just kept comin’ at 4E. I don’t really remember what her problems were with it, but I asked about her modeling career and she forgot all about how bad 4E was.



Did you get her number?   If you didn't number close on that HB then what's the point?


And people ask why there are so few women playing in this hobby.

Z.
Why'd you post this here as well as rpg.net?

forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?634909-Took...



Maybe to make a point and let most people see it istead of just the people here on this board?

Seriously, isn't this the most obvious thing ever? o_o



Not really.  I can think of many reasons off the top of my head.
This particular argument that 3e was as rejected as 4e is one we've had pretty often.  I really believe you are very wrong but until wizards comes out and shows us the numbers we'll just have to disagree.   But I REALLY disagree. Like windstorm to hurricane disagree.   The boards are always hot.  They'll be hot when 5e hits the stands.  What I'm talking about is Joe D&D player on the street.   How many stuck with D&D and how many left it?  I think by that standard 4e was far more rejected than any prior edition.   You can theorize about why that is - more technology, better communication, a third party, etc...  but it happened.   I will though say that I believe at least many of the 4e people who stayed liked it far more so there is that.   It's why the divide is so wide.


And I agree with you to a certain point. I think 4e probably was the most rejected version, but not for the reasons you probably believe. I think it was the most rejected version because it came on the heels of what was probably the largest version. 3e came out at just the right time, when 2e was stagnating and the game really needed something new. Even then, I don't think it would have been as successful as it was without the inclusion of the OGL. I saw an explosion of d20 books everywhere I went.

Anything following that would have had a hard time, because it was a completely different climate when 4e was released. The game didn't feel as stagnated, the OGL had created hundreds of alternatives and splats to cater to nearly every niche audience, the OGL also made it extremely easy for competition to pick up what WotC decided to drop, the economy was changing and many people weren't interested in investing in new books, not to mention many people had already recently reinvested in new books when 3.5 was released, and with the explosion of the internet, people could more readily voice their opinions. Basically, there are a lot of factors that play into this. I think you are overstating the changes brought about by 4e, which in many ways really weren't that drastic save a few, because of your own edition preferences without looking at all the other issues that come into play. Which isn't to say that your assessment isn't partly right and may have been a reason for many people, but it's hardly the only issue involved here.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
Why'd you post this here as well as rpg.net?

forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?634909-Took...



is there some kind of internet rule that you cannot post more than one place?

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

...I don't think it would have been as successful as it was without the inclusion of the OGL. I saw an explosion of d20 books everywhere I went.

Anything following that would have had a hard time, because it was a completely different climate when 4e was released. The game didn't feel as stagnated, the OGL had created hundreds of alternatives and splats to cater to nearly every niche audience, the OGL also made it extremely easy for competition to pick up what WotC decided to drop...



That's a great observation. Pathfinder is to 3e what blank is to 2e. Except that there's nothing to fill in that blank, because 2e was a proprietary system and no one legally could just keep printing a legacy ruleset to cater to gamers who didn't want to make the switch to a new edition. In the absence of OGL, would the reticence to move on to 4e have been as strong or as vociferous? I wonder.




To be completely fair, while edition-bashing isn't really useful, or conducive to conversation (or rather, conversation that anyone wants to be a part of), I really think complaning - loudly, at times - has a proven track record to have a strong influence on WotC's approaches to D&D.



Yup.  4e came about as it did largely because the people that didn't like 3.5 were very vocal about what they didn't like and why they didn't like it.  If you look at the 4e Realms, well, I think it's pretty impossible not to see how they were crafted to fall more in line with what the people that disliked the previous Realms wanted.  And that ... happened.  That's about all I can say about it.  But what that happening did was teach all of us li'l forum goers - the ones that saw it go down, anyway - that he who whines loudest and most often gets the toys.  WotC brought a lot of this on themselves.  Even if it was just happy coincidence for those that got the changes they sought, it still appears that they got what they wanted in part because of how they behaved here.  They were heard.  A lot of people want to be heard and when you add in the perception that being heard here gets you what you want (whether that's accurate or not), it's no wonder to me that people argue the way they do.  And then you add in all the other stuff that's been mentioned here as reason for edition warring on top of that and you get the disaster that is the WotC boards.

The culture here is the way it is because of the 3.5 to 4e transition and the massive amount of vitriol that was allowed to be put forth here.  And it's also the way it is because of what was allowed to happen afterwards - groups of members uniting together to shout down, bait and report people they disagreed with.  It's on us, it's on WotC and it's also just how things like this happen to go down.  What it is to me, though, is totally expected.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]


Less than 12 hours later in the Exhibit Hall, we’re talking to two D20 Girls and one of them takes a swipe at 4E. Now, I’m not gonna get into it with some girl half my age, wearing a miniskirt and cat ears, so I just told her we had a fun time with 4E, and if you’re having fun you’re doing it right, right?

No. She just kept comin’ at 4E. I don’t really remember what her problems were with it, but I asked about her modeling career and she forgot all about how bad 4E was.



Did you get her number?   If you didn't number close on that HB then what's the point?


And people ask why there are so few women playing in this hobby.

Z.



That was a joke   My first thought was that the OP was really just bragging about this D&D girl he met...


As a 4e player in the past, that system has its merits, to us though it just becomes repetitive and combat focused for our taste. The balance is good, but I eschew the idea of CRs and the 4e equivalent in favor of PCs making the choice about what to tackle in sandbox. I don't like the diablo-esque WoW-esque idea of characters being bounded to only encounter creatures of their level. In a lot of linear story adventures it makes some sense, but in open campaigns it shouldn't be expected.
To be completely fair, while edition-bashing isn't really useful, or conducive to conversation (or rather, conversation that anyone wants to be a part of), I really think complaning - loudly, at times - has a proven track record to have a strong influence on WotC's approaches to D&D.



Yup.  4e came about as it did largely because the people that didn't like 3.5 were very vocal about what they didn't like and why they didn't like it.  If you look at the 4e Realms, well, I think it's pretty impossible not to see how they were crafted to fall more in line with what the people that disliked the previous Realms wanted.  And that ... happened.  That's about all I can say about it.


I feel obliged to answer this because I've seen it a few times now.  You simply cannot equate a setting change to an edition change.  As someone who really liked the changes brought by 4e, I am also very "meh" about the 4e FR setting.  To say that the FR setting changes in 4e is a result of what people didn't like about the mechanics of 3e seems like a bridge too far.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

As a 4e player in the past, that system has its merits, to us though it just becomes repetitive and combat focused for our taste. The balance is good, but I eschew the idea of CRs and the 4e equivalent in favor of PCs making the choice about what to tackle in sandbox. I don't like the diablo-esque WoW-esque idea of characters being bounded to only encounter creatures of their level. In a lot of linear story adventures it makes some sense, but in open campaigns it shouldn't be expected. I'll be at PaizoCon in the Pacific Northwest Seattle birthplace of both WotC and Paizo and dont plan to badmouthing either system.


Nothing about CR, or 4e's encounter design formulas, prohibits the characters from encountering something well above or well below what is a challenge for them.  Just because the game included rules for designing challenges that wouldn't be cakewalks or TPKs, doesn't mean the party can't make a bad decision and encounter any monster whose stats you have access to.  You can pretend that having CRs and Encounter Levels in the game bounds characters to only encounter things of approximately their level, but you will be wrong.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I'm going to do something rare here and agree with MechaPilot concerning the 4e CR system.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

I feel obliged to answer this because I've seen it a few times now.  You simply cannot equate a setting change to an edition change.  As someone who really liked the changes brought by 4e, I am also very "meh" about the 4e FR setting.  To say that the FR setting changes in 4e is a result of what people didn't like about the mechanics of 3e seems like a bridge too far.



It's a good thing, then, that that's not what I said at all. ;)  FR changed because people complained about FR as it was.  It's two different examples of loud complaint followed by what appears to be design decisions based off of said complaint.  The mechanical stuff is one, the FR stuff is another.  They aren't necessarily related and they don't need to be to serve as examples of what I was talking about.  And I never suggested that they were. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]