Was Goblin Piledriver a mistake?

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Seriously, neither of the blue decks perform that well against goblins BEFORE considering the 2x piledrivers! Surely the developers could've come up with something a bit more imaginative and balanced...
No, any protection from etc is usually an autowin though.That's MTG for you.
Same goes for when you play exalted and you draw the protection from white or black knight (5 knights!), it is usually game over for all the white and black decks in 90% of the cases.
Yes I really hate protection creatures in a limited format, with so many mono decks. It's just increasing the rock/paper/scissors factor and the luck factor, and reducing interaction. Boring and stupid. 
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The protection from blue does seem rather arbitrary... but I don't know enough about the card development process to give you a good explanation for that.


I think protection, in general is simply lame in such a limited environiment.   Think about how absurdly unfun it was to fun against Beknighted, or be playing March to War and have them drop Sword of War and Peace.      

I agree it is unfair to give one deck something another deck as absolutely no answer for.   And before people below me start spouting about "but you can counter it",  it's still a huge detriment to hold open counter mana from turn 2 onward.

If it wasn't for the protection, Piledriver would be completely fine. 
I can only guess blue decks were running rampant at the time it was printed and they wanted to give them a scare. Not appropriate here though.

Also protection is one of the most misunderstood abilities, so it confuses beginners as well as spoiling their games. Why? 
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I think they put in the piledrivers as a check to ensure we don't get another OP realm of Illusions type of blue deck. The blue decks do have answers for piledrivers, but they generally involve 4-5 mana cards.

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You basically need to go first and have a mana leak/counterspell in hand or you lose really

The deck gets another one in the promo unlocks iirc
You basically need to go first and have a mana leak/counterspell in hand or you lose really

The deck gets another one in the promo unlocks iirc

It does not, but it does get another Goblin Chieftain, Goblin Guide, and Warren Instigator, Siege-Gang Commander and Goblin Ringleader!

Fun times ahead...






...


 
The protection from blue does seem rather arbitrary... but I don't know enough about the card development process to give you a good explanation for that.


I think protection, in general is simply lame in such a limited environiment.   Think about how absurdly unfun it was to fun against Beknighted, or be playing March to War and have them drop Sword of War and Peace.      

I agree it is unfair to give one deck something another deck as absolutely no answer for.   And before people below me start spouting about "but you can counter it",  it's still a huge detriment to hold open counter mana from turn 2 onward.

If it wasn't for the protection, Piledriver would be completely fine. 



The March to War deck didn't have Sword of War and Peace.  That was in Gideon's soldier deck.
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The protection from blue does seem rather arbitrary... but I don't know enough about the card development process to give you a good explanation for that.


I think protection, in general is simply lame in such a limited environiment.   Think about how absurdly unfun it was to fun against Beknighted, or be playing March to War and have them drop Sword of War and Peace.      

I agree it is unfair to give one deck something another deck as absolutely no answer for.   And before people below me start spouting about "but you can counter it",  it's still a huge detriment to hold open counter mana from turn 2 onward.

If it wasn't for the protection, Piledriver would be completely fine. 



The March to War deck didn't have Sword of War and Peace.  That was in Gideon's soldier deck.

In that sentence, that isn't the thing that doesn't make sense.    I think it's quite clear what I said.   I playing March, them dropping SoWaP.


It isn't however unfun to fun* against Beknighted.
*fight  
Oops, my mistake, lol. 
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Yes. Considering that if GG goes first there is no way to get it off the board I'd say that's a bit inappropriate for this format.
Thanks for the input people; so the general concensus seems to be that yes, it is overpowered in this format, because of the protection from blue.

It was an interesting idea that someone suggested about it being included to prevent another OP blue deck, but I don't think that really holds up, because it's an answer that's only available to a single deck.

I have an alternate hypothesis; that the developers/deck designers wanted something that had a similar ability to the piledriver, but nothing was really available, so they just went with piledriver, ignoring the impact it would have on the blue decks (i.e. they were too lazy to think of an alternate card).

It's sad because this one card really tips the balance in the match-ups against blue. It's bizarre considering the much improved overall balance between the decks in 2013, why they would include such an obviously one-sided card.



Am I right that M13 will be making goblins "cool" again? If so, this explains everything -- making goblins OP in DOTP is a marketing strategy, and the piledriver is just a part of that.
This and warren instigator is almost an auto-win against blue Smile
I also rank this deck as #1 and the fastest.
It is kind of ironic that we complained about how DOTP 12 was tribal-aggro heavy, we get a game with more variety and the most dominant deck in '13 is a tribal aggro deck.


>.< 
I can only guess blue decks were running rampant at the time it was printed and they wanted to give them a scare. Not appropriate here though.

I believe Goblin Piledriver was created as an answer to the Psychatog decks that were popular in Standard.
It is kind of ironic that we complained about how DOTP 12 was tribal-aggro heavy, we get a game with more variety and the most dominant deck in '13 is a tribal aggro deck.


>.< 



Agree.  This deck is just annoying, and more tribal than the 2012 tribal decks.

If you ask me, it's not the Piledriver that's the problem, it's the damn Goblin Grenades.  It is extremely frustrating to claw your way to a stable board position, only to be finished off by this ridiculous 1 CMC 5 damage spell.

The blue decks have almost no chance against this deck even without the Piledriver, but the Grenade screws everyone over.

Definitely lamest deck in the bunch. 
My theory on this (which I've posted before) is it's all about asymmetric difficulty - purposely not creating a balanced multiplayer.

Back in the day, gaming was hard, and this alienated the mainstream. When the general difficulty of single player games lowered to the extent that finishing a game became a right and not a privilege, the market expanded hugely.

These days though, the big money in gaming is all in multiplayer, not singleplayer experiences. How do you keep the attention of a audience who (like singleplayer) has wildly differring levels of skill, but still feels entitled to win regardless, and will vote with their wallet if denied this?

Easy. You purposely unbalance your multiplayer so anyone can win. Sure, the better players will win more often, but if you fill the decks with enough bombs and enough lop-sided matchups like Blue vs the Goblin Piledriver, then even the worst players will get a relatively regular thrill of victory and stay happy and keep spending money. FPS games have their unbalanced guns and perks that get spammed by "noobs". This is the same. It isn't a design error. It's done on purpose.

...and that doesn't work, then you can just go the Free to Play route and just straight out sell unfair advantages to them, something that's sadly crept into retail games too. The promotional unlocks here are an example - spend money at a Magic event and we'll give you an unfair edge in DOTP. We all make the basic mistake of assuming the developers and publishers are striving for balance, when they aren't. They're striving for sales and cross-promotion more than anything.

I understand the Piledriver was originally made to combat Psychotog, but without that card in DOTP, it is just there as a bomb to give unskilled players undeserved wins so they feel empowered and spend money on Paper Magic. That's why the tribal decks are usually the strongest in DOTP, as they're also the most straightforward to play. Just spam all your cards as you draw them and win with very little thought, and Protection achieves this. Afterall, an auto-win deck doesn't work for poor players if it has to rely heavily on their decisions. Root of the Firemind in '09 was a great example, just watching how often people screwed up with the Gelectrode timings and lost a winning game. The Piledriver is just play and attack. Just like Serra Ascendant in 2HG, there's very little scope to go wrong with it.

Lest we forget, while this is an incredibly enjoyable and well featured game, it's also an advert.




+1

I was hinting at something like this in my last post, but you've explained it very concisely and succinctly here. Cudos to you.


But don't we get the promo unlocks with the expansion?
In theory, we should but who knows?  They haven't announced anything one way or the other even though we're supposed to have better communication now.  I guess their version of that is Microbless posting an article about how Encounters were created, which is obviously far more important than answering questions like these. 
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Jace have 2x Icy Manipulator to deal with these.
Clone, Mind Control and of course counterspells are also ways to deal with it.

It is a bit more tough for the other blue deck, it only have counterspells and Sphinx-Bone Wand.


Sometimes a Goblin Piledriver is an auto win (against any deck I might add), but nothing game-breaking.

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Mind Control wont work against a protection-from-blue card: the aura just falls straight off. I did this to myself recently: I mind-controlled a Terastodon and then stupidly put the sword of body and mind on it. The mind control fell off, and the now 11/11 monster went back to its owner, with my pro-blue and -green sword on. Error.
You can use Mind Control (or Clone or Rite of Replication) to steal (or copy) one of his other creatures and use it to block the Piledriver.

He'll just Goblin Grenade it, of course, but it's worth a shot!  Haha. 
I don't understand why everyone cries about any good card in this game. (there is not much good cards).

Why every time when you loose a game you want to ban this card, ban those card, because you say something is OP.

Why you never say that most decks are UP. Why you won't cry that Stainless should give better cards to weak decks than steal good cards from playable ones? When I lose a game i try to improve my own deck and my game. i want to be better player not my opponents to be weaker.

Jace in 2013 is weak not only against krenko but against most other decks too. You think each other deck is OP and should lose it's best cards?

I disagree
In other words, there are ways to deal with it plus there's only 2 Goblin Grenades in the deck.  Right now I don't think it's a big deal but I guess my opinion could change after I start playing MP, which I haven't had time to do yet.
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I don't know if there is some grand conspiracy to the creation of the Krenko deck, I think it just evolved organically because of the card design for Magic 2013.     They had a cycle of 5 monocolour planeswalkers and 5 legends, and then decided to make the format for the first ten decks revolve around those concepts.  The card, Krenko Mob Boss, really only makes sense in a goblin tribal deck - so one was created.   Simple as that.

 
You can use Mind Control (or Clone or Rite of Replication) to steal (or copy) one of his other creatures and use it to block the Piledriver.

He'll just Goblin Grenade it, of course, but it's worth a shot!  Haha. 


That's what I had in my mind.
Steal one of his red goblins to serve as a blocker.

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I don't know if there is some grand conspiracy to the creation of the Krenko deck, I think it just evolved organically because of the card design for Magic 2013.     They had a cycle of 5 monocolour planeswalkers and 5 legends, and then decided to make the format for the first ten decks revolve around those concepts.  The card, Krenko Mob Boss, really only makes sense in a goblin tribal deck - so one was created.   Simple as that.

 



I don't think Krenko's deck is that unbalanced, and I don't really think there's a conspiracy. The Piledriver is no different than Panoptic Mirror, or say Serra Ascendant.

I just think they've tried to give each deck a wild card (or 4...) that can turn a match on a dime so poor players can occasionally win and feel successful.



Like the Blue Shell in Mario Kart
I don't know if there is some grand conspiracy to the creation of the Krenko deck, I think it just evolved organically because of the card design for Magic 2013.     They had a cycle of 5 monocolour planeswalkers and 5 legends, and then decided to make the format for the first ten decks revolve around those concepts.  The card, Krenko Mob Boss, really only makes sense in a goblin tribal deck - so one was created.   Simple as that.

 



I don't think Krenko's deck is that unbalanced, and I don't really think there's a conspiracy. The Piledriver is no different than Panoptic Mirror, or say Serra Ascendant.

I just think they've tried to give each deck a wild card (or 4...) that can turn a match on a dime so poor players can occasionally win and feel successful.



Like the Blue Shell in Mario Kart



and the mad catch-up where the AI goes super slow if you're far behind, and super fast if you're ahead. Hmm, I wonder if they implemented something similar in DOTP?
Anything that hates on , after RoI, is fine by me lol. No, but in all seriousness I don't like the inclusion of any Protection from X cards in such a limited environment such as Duels.
Heyyyy. I completely agree with Stevolutionary. What a wonderful day.
Yeah I was making similar comments on the thread concerning the Goblin deck.  SteveO is right.  I find it incredibly annoying that they take a deck that is already favored against the blue decks and just add a ridiculously powerful card to make the matchup even more one-sided.

If it just had protection, it would be fine.  If it just had its ability, it would be fine.  But both is far too much.
Yeah I was making similar comments on the thread concerning the Goblin deck.  SteveO is right.  I find it incredibly annoying that they take a deck that is already favored against the blue decks and just add a ridiculously powerful card to make the matchup even more one-sided.

If it just had protection, it would be fine.  If it just had its ability, it would be fine.  But both is far too much.



I would be curious to see what the general opinion on overpowered cards is for 2013.  From my limited time with 2013, only Goblin PiledriverPanoptic Mirror, and Serra Ascendant (particularly as a 3-of, soon to be 4-of) seem to be out of place.
I get told to shut up/deal with it by the community about complaining and steve0 gets praise for it? wtf... is this community about who you are or something?
Back in the day, gaming was hard, and this alienated the mainstream. When the general difficulty of single player games lowered to the extent that finishing a game became a right and not a privilege, the market expanded hugely.



I remember those days. It's called Nintendo hard for a reason. (And technically, Super Mario Bros. 2 Japan, a.k.a. "The Lost Levels", is the first masocore hack.) Fun times.

Consider the vidya the last thing not taken over by the cult of self-esteem.

These days though, the big money in gaming is all in multiplayer, not singleplayer experiences. How do you keep the attention of a audience who (like singleplayer) has wildly differring levels of skill, but still feels entitled to win regardless, and will vote with their wallet if denied this?

Easy. You purposely unbalance your multiplayer so anyone can win. Sure, the better players will win more often, but if you fill the decks with enough bombs and enough lop-sided matchups like Blue vs the Goblin Piledriver, then even the worst players will get a relatively regular thrill of victory and stay happy and keep spending money. FPS games have their unbalanced guns and perks that get spammed by "noobs". This is the same. It isn't a design error. It's done on purpose.



Plus, the whole concept of artificial limitations. More skilled players can say "No, I'm staying away from that broken card." In old-school video games, this takes the form of sequence breaking. Very common.

And in a game like Magic where randomness is a common element, an imbalanced card automatically seemingly equalizes things.

This is another reason they've gone from the Elo system (where losing penalizes your ranking) to the planeswalker points system (where your rank can only go up).
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My theory on this (which I've posted before) is it's all about asymmetric difficulty - purposely not creating a balanced multiplayer.

Back in the day, gaming was hard, and this alienated the mainstream. When the general difficulty of single player games lowered to the extent that finishing a game became a right and not a privilege, the market expanded hugely.

These days though, the big money in gaming is all in multiplayer, not singleplayer experiences. How do you keep the attention of a audience who (like singleplayer) has wildly differring levels of skill, but still feels entitled to win regardless, and will vote with their wallet if denied this?

Easy. You purposely unbalance your multiplayer so anyone can win. Sure, the better players will win more often, but if you fill the decks with enough bombs and enough lop-sided matchups like Blue vs the Goblin Piledriver, then even the worst players will get a relatively regular thrill of victory and stay happy and keep spending money. FPS games have their unbalanced guns and perks that get spammed by "noobs". This is the same. It isn't a design error. It's done on purpose.

...and that doesn't work, then you can just go the Free to Play route and just straight out sell unfair advantages to them, something that's sadly crept into retail games too. The promotional unlocks here are an example - spend money at a Magic event and we'll give you an unfair edge in DOTP. We all make the basic mistake of assuming the developers and publishers are striving for balance, when they aren't. They're striving for sales and cross-promotion more than anything.

I understand the Piledriver was originally made to combat Psychotog, but without that card in DOTP, it is just there as a bomb to give unskilled players undeserved wins so they feel empowered and spend money on Paper Magic. That's why the tribal decks are usually the strongest in DOTP, as they're also the most straightforward to play. Just spam all your cards as you draw them and win with very little thought, and Protection achieves this. Afterall, an auto-win deck doesn't work for poor players if it has to rely heavily on their decisions. Root of the Firemind in '09 was a great example, just watching how often people screwed up with the Gelectrode timings and lost a winning game. The Piledriver is just play and attack. Just like Serra Ascendant in 2HG, there's very little scope to go wrong with it.

Lest we forget, while this is an incredibly enjoyable and well featured game, it's also an advert.



Have an internet or a cookie or a star hell ill even buy you a pint sir/madame.

I hate the way that video games have gone the way they have i used to love that feeling you got when you finished after sevral das worth of slogging it through the end game. Now adays you get a trophy for finishing the tutorial lvl

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Battletoads.

That is all.

This is another reason they've gone from the Elo system (where losing penalizes your ranking) to the planeswalker points system (where your rank can only go up).



Now if only DotP could get such a system, so the leaderboards aren't pointless after a certain point..
This IS the system they're using on the iPad. They just inexplicably refer to it as "ELO". 
Trueskill(TM) is what we use on xbox and it really is inexplicable.
Yeah, I've tried Xbox (09), PS3 (12), and Steam (13), and it seems all the leaderboards play fairly the same -- rise up to a certain point, then you generally don't gain anything from winning against randoms, but you lose a bunch if they win.  Or maybe you even lose points when you win.  It's really inexplicable.

I do like text chat on Steam though (and the non 1-v-1 modes), so I'm probably not jumping ship to iPad for 14 just for sensical leaderboards.. 
Lol, great posts! I remember those NES days, gaming was a lot of fun and beating games was not mandatory. I never finished Contra 3 or Battletoads for the matter, but wow, do those games ensemble some of the best memories of my childhood. To be honest, I finished the first super mario bros some years ago when I played it again. Of course I wasn't able to beat it back when I was 7

Just as the Wii did, getting a bigger market share is what games are seeking now. More customers, more money, and you just have to adapt your product to suit the largest segment (i.e. non-hardcore gamers). There are positive and negative aspects to this. I could finally get my wife to play because of noob-friendly games, which is awesome, but on the other hand, you got simple, boring games and situations like this particular deck balance and protection issue.