The Mimeoplasm and Exhume

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This question came up on Reddit the other day. The end result was two conflicting answers, one of which the user claimed to have come from the Magic Judges Chat, but the lack of rules support bothered me. I couldn't find anything in the comp rules which definitively supported one side or the other, and Google has been no help either!

Player A, Player B, and Player C are in a multiplayer game.

Player A's graveyard contains [C]The Mimeoplasm[/C] and no other creature cards.

Player B's graveyard contains one creature card. For the sake of argument and simplicity let's make it a [C]Runeclaw Bear[/C].

Player C's graveyard also contains one creature card; keeping it simple, let's say it's an [C]Armored Warhorse[/C].

Player A (the active player) casts [C]Exhume[/C] and it resolves.

Presumably the first few events are:

- Player A chooses The Mimeoplasm.
- Player B chooses Runeclaw Bear.
- Player C chooses Armored Warhorse.

But what happens after that and in what order?

Some specific questions:

- Are Runeclaw Bear and Armored Warhorse legal choices for The Mimeoplasm's ability when Player A gets to make that choice?
- If they are, then are the cards actually exiled or are they put onto the battlefield? Presumably if they are not, then The Mimeoplasm dies immediately due to the "If you do [...]" clause.
- Do Player B and Player C have any say in the matter (i.e., does 400.6 apply)?

Please provide relevant comp rules support. Thanks in advance!
I've given up on Mimeoplasm...  Sealed

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />- Are Runeclaw Bear and Armored Warhorse legal choices for The Mimeoplasm's ability when Player A gets to make that choice?


Yes.  Remember that replacement effects are determined and any necessary decisions made immediately before the event that is being replaced.  If anyone tries to dispute this, ask them what zone a Sliver is in when deciding whether to apply Pulmonic Sliver's ability.
614.4. Replacement effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs--they can't "go back in time" and change something that's already happened. Spells or abilities that generate these effects are often cast or activated in response to whatever would produce the event and thus resolve before that event would occur.
Example: A player can activate an ability to regenerate a creature in response to a spell that would destroy it. Once the spell resolves, though, it's too late to regenerate the creature.


- If they are, then are the cards actually exiled or are they put onto the battlefield?


Yes, they are exiled.  That's what it says.
Presumably if they are not, then The Mimeoplasm dies immediately due to the "If you do [...]" clause.


No.
117.12. Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, "[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." or "[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn't], [effect]." The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The "If [a player] [does or doesn't]" clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.
Example: You control Standstill, an enchantment that says "When a player casts a spell, sacrifice Standstill. If you do, each of that player's opponents draws three cards." A spell is cast, causing Standstill's ability to trigger. Then an ability is activated that exiles Standstill. When Standstill's ability resolves, you're unable to pay the "sacrifice Standstill" cost. No player will draw cards.
Example: Your opponent has cast Gather Specimens, a spell that says "If a creature would enter the battlefield under an opponent's control this turn, it enters the battlefield under your control instead." You control a face-down Dermoplasm, a creature with morph that says "When Dermoplasm is turned face up, you may put a creature card with morph from your hand onto the battlefield face up. If you do, return Dermoplasm to its owner's hand." You turn Dermoplasm face up, and you choose to put a creature card with morph from your hand onto the battlefield. Due to Gather Specimens, it enters the battlefield under your opponent's control instead of yours. However, since you chose to pay the cost, Dermoplasm is still returned to its owner's hand.


- Do Player B and Player C have any say in the matter (i.e., does 400.6 apply)?


I don't see how it would apply any more there than it does to Leyline of the Void.
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
the creatures enter at the same time
by that time all graveyards are empty, the Mimeoplasm will be put back into the graveyard for being 0/0

/edit: hmm, Argus disagrees, he is usually right
not really sure if it is relevant but at least in MTGO you make the decisions for "as it enters the battlefield" from a "new game zone" and not from the stack or whatever previous zone the card was in.
proud member of the 2011 community team
Yeah, but they aren't in some kind of "limbo" or transistional zone while the effect is being replaced. They necessarily must be in the graveyard, because the replacement effect needs to apply itself "right before" The Mimeoplasm enters.

So I think you'd be able to choose the bear or the horse for The Mimeoplasm's effect. I don't think you can choose The Mimeoplasm itself because of 614.13.
614.13. An effect that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield may cause other objects to change zones. Such an effect can’t cause the permanent itself to not enter the battlefield.

I'm pretty sure that the Bear and the horse get exiled, but even if they didn't, The Mimeoplasm would be fine. If you do... only cares whether you chose to apply an effect, not whether that effect succeeded.

I think 400.6 applies, actually. The Mimeoplasm is trying to exile them and Exhume is trying to move them to the battlefield. The actual move onto the battlefield isn't being replaced, so it's different from Leyline of the Void. After we figure out The Mimeoplasm's replacement effect, we've got two zone-change effects that both want to apply.
Yeah, but they aren't in some kind of "limbo" or transistional zone while the effect is being replaced.

they are in MTGO, same as clones or shocklands

I guess that doesn't really follow the rules but is a necessity for the game

proud member of the 2011 community team
I don't agree that the Mimeoplasm and the other two creatures are still in their graveyards at the same time that they are entering the battlefield.   It's changing zones.  Reference the following rule:

110.1. A permanent is a card or token on the battlefield. A permanent remains on the battlefield indefinitely. A card or token becomes a permanent as it enters the battlefield and it stops being a permanent as it's moved to another zone by an effect or rule.


This rule implies that these things happen while it's moving zones.  You wouldn't say that a card becomes a permanent on the stack then moves to the battlefield.  It becomes a permanent after it's left the stack but before it has entered the battlefield.

It would follow that when you are choosing creatures using Mimeoplasm that all the creatures are out of their graveyards but have not yet entered the battlefield.
On the other hand, Golgari Grave-Troll counts itself when coming into play from the graveyard for purposes of adding +1/+1 counters to it... so, with that in mind, Mimeoplasm should be able to still "see" the other two creatures in their graveyards and choose them as legal targets for its ability.  It seems that it would then try to exile them at the same time that Exhume is trying to put them on the battlefield.
dslatimore makes a good point.

[C]Leyline of the Void[/C]'s effect replaces "a card would be put into an opponent's graveyard", meaning it replaces the actual zone change of the card.

As relevant to the card affected by Leyline of the Void if I understand correctly:
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, all players look at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object's controller--or its owner if it has no controller--chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous "destroy" effects.) Then the event moves the object.

Leyline's replacement effect wins out.

[C]The Mimeoplasm[/C]'s effect replaces "The Mimeoplasm enters the battlefield", meaning it doesn't replace the actual zone change of the bear.

As relevant to the bear affected by The Mimeoplasm if I understand correctly:
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, all players look at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object's controller--or its owner if it has no controller--chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous "destroy" effects.) Then the event moves the object.

The bear's owner picks.

Argus_Panoptes, do you still think what you said is correct? Can someone else confirm or deny?
I'm pretty sure that the Bear and the horse get exiled, but even if they didn't, The Mimeoplasm would be fine. If you do... only cares whether you chose to apply an effect, not whether that effect succeeded.


That makes sense based on 117.2 as Argus pointed out. I hadn't considered that in my original post, and it changes the answer quite a bit since now the Bear and Warhorse don't need to actually be exiled for the copy effects to apply.

So can we then have a game state where The Mimeoplasm succeeds in copying one of the creatures and getting +1/+1 counters, but those creatures are still put onto the battlefield?

I think 400.6 applies, actually. The Mimeoplasm is trying to exile them and Exhume is trying to move them to the battlefield. The actual move onto the battlefield isn't being replaced, so it's different from Leyline of the Void. After we figure out The Mimeoplasm's replacement effect, we've got two zone-change effects that both want to apply.


This makes sense to me. There's no argument that the last part of 400.6 doesn't apply to Leyline of the Void since after applying the replacement effect there are no contradictory or mututally exclusive effects to consider---case closed. 

But the case in question is different. We apply the only replacement effect which affects the move (i.e., The Mimeoplasm's ability). The "exile two cards" part of Mimeoplasm isn't a replacement effect---it's a cost as defined by 117.2---so it wouldn't apply here. So we're left with two "effects or rules try[ing] to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object", applying to both the Bear and the Warhorse---Mim wants to exile them, and Exhume wants to put them onto the battlefield. 

Let's assume Player B and Player C both choose for Exhume's effect to apply. But since Player A chose to pay the optional cost, regardless of what actually happened The Mimeoplasm can enter the battlefield as a copy of Bear or Warhorse with two +1/+1 counters (since they both have power 2).

What am I missing here?


@dslatimore: There are no "in-between" zones. A permanent spell on the stack becomes a permanent on the battlefield when it resolves; there is no permanent before it's actually on the battlefield. Similarly those cards are either in their graveyards or on the battlefield; they can't be both, and they can't be neither.

Also: The Mimeoplasm and Golgari Grave-Troll both have replacement effects that modify how they enter the battlefield, and they get their information from the game right before they enter---400.6 says apply the replacement effect, then move the object. So as you said, in this case two actions are trying to apply at the same time which is the reason this is such a head-scratcher.


For what it's worth I'm really enjoying this discussion. Smile
The Mimeoplasm effect wants to exile the cards, but the spell effect wants to put the cards on the battlefield.

CR400.6 says the owner of the cards gets to choose which effect to apply.

Regardless of where the cards go The Mimeoplasm will still copy them and get the +1/+1 counters. (CR117.12)

- Are Runeclaw Bear and Armored Warhorse legal choices for The Mimeoplasm's ability when Player A gets to make that choice?

yes, because the event of moving them hasn't occured yet
- If they are, then are the cards actually exiled or are they put onto the battlefield?

depends on what the owner of the cards wants to have happen to them
Presumably if they are not, then The Mimeoplasm dies immediately due to the "If you do [...]" clause.

n/a
- Do Player B and Player C have any say in the matter (i.e., does 400.6 apply)?

yes, they choose ultimately whether the cards get exiled or put on the field

note: there is an exception to CR400.6, CR614.13

In this case of Exhume, if Player A wanted he could choose to exile The Mimeoplasm to itself and either or both of the other cards multiple times to get an arbitrarily large number of +1/+1 counters on The Mimeoplasm. 
 

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In this case of Exhume, if Player A wanted he could choose to exile The Mimeoplasm to itself and either or both of the other cards multiple times to get an arbitrarily large number of +1/+1 counters on The Mimeoplasm. 



Woah woah WOAH.

So I say that Mim is entering as a copy of Mim exiling Bear. That copy of Mim is entering as a copy of Mim exiling Bear. That Mim is entering as a copy of Mim exiling Bear.

Am I understanding that right?

Holy balls. I mean, that's the corneriest of corner cases but still. That's several kinds of awesome.
Am I understanding that right?

yep, until Mim's owner decides to end the loop by copying a different card

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yep, until Mim's owner decides to end the loop by copying a different card



Or until the Magic 2013 rules modify 614.13.
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
Let's look it another way:

Exhume resolves: it creates the event «Put MIM, Bear & Horse on the Field».
Mim's ability then modifies this event into «Put Mim on the Field + Exile Bear + Exile Horse»


I don't believe Bear's controler nor Horse's controller have a say,
because ONLY ONE replacement effect is implicated here.
They would chose if MULTIPLE rep were conflicting.

Comments?

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one thousand, people might notice;

If I steal a hundred dollar from a loot of one million, I might get away with it;

If I wish to steal even more and still go unnoticed, I need to make the loot bigger.

 

Now you know why taxes always go up.

 

Looting: ''the plundering of public assets by corrupt or greedy authorities'' (Wikipedia)

Or until the Magic 2013 rules modify 614.13.

the loophole will finally be closed

@Chaikov:

Initial event: {Put Mim on field, put Creature X on field, put Creature Y on field }

Replace "Put Mim on field" with "Put Mim on field as a copy of Creature X, put +1/+1 counters equal to the power of Creature Y on Mim, exile Creature X, exile Creature Y"

Modified Event: { Put Mim on field as a copy of Creature X, put +1/+1 counters equal to the power of Creature Y on Mim, exile Creature X, exile Creature Y, put Creature X on field, put Creature Y on field }

Two mutually exclusive actions are being applied to Creature X and Creature Y (or rather Creature Cards X & Y) 

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In this case of Exhume, if Player A wanted he could choose to exile The Mimeoplasm to itself and either or both of the other cards multiple times to get an arbitrarily large number of +1/+1 counters on The Mimeoplasm.

One thing you definitly cannot do is exile The Mimeoplasm to itself, becuse of rule 614.13. You are thinking of the case where there is a second The Mimeoplasm in the graveyard.
614.13. An effect that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield may cause other objects to change zones. Such an effect can't cause the permanent itself to not enter the battlefield.

you can do it currently, there is an [O] ruling saying that you can
proud member of the 2011 community team
The current version of 614.13 wouldn't stop you from choosing to exile it, it'd only stop the actual exiling of it.

The rule is getting an overhaul for M13 though. 

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The current version of 614.13 wouldn't stop you from choosing to exile it, it'd only stop the actual exiling of it.

Here is the question you submitted to the mailing list. You said, "I cast The Mimeoplasm (referred to as TM). There is a second copy of The Mimeoplasm in a graveyard and another creature card (Memnite for this example) in a graveyard." All the cases that were confirmed to be a loop always involved a second The Mimeoplasm in the graveyard.
I know what I submitted is different, but the principle is the same here. 

614.13 doesn't stop you from choosing to exile the card, it merely says the effect won't be able to move it anywhere else.

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All the cases that were confirmed to be a loop always involved a second The Mimeoplasm in the graveyard.



614.13 in its current form mainly stipulates that "Such an effect can't cause the permanent itself to not enter the battlefield."

Nothing about this particular interaction definitively stops Mim from entering the battlefield. I think we concluded that Player B and Player C can choose to have their creatures enter the battlefield, yet Mimeoplasm will still get his copy effect from them. Player A chooses The Mimeoplasm and Runeclaw Bear.

Assuming the same choice (of which mutually exclusive event to apply to Mim) applies to Player A, then Mimeoplasm should still get to enter the battlefield, no?
I know what I submitted is different, but the principle is the same here.

614.13 doesn't stop you from choosing to exile the card, it merely says the effect won't be able to move it anywhere else.

I think it does stop you from choosing it, because rule 614.13 says that it cannot happen, and you are not allowed to make an impossible choice. The point of the rule is to prevent situations like this.

There was never an official ruling that said The Mimeoplasm can copy itself, and it is not supposed to be able to copy itself. That is what I was trying to clear up.
you are not allowed to make an impossible choice.

You are most definitely allowed to make impossible choices choices that have no effect.

ikegami, 2goth4U, have you read the example that is just after rule 614.13?

Example: Sutured Ghoul says, in part, “As Sutured Ghoul enters the battlefield, exile any number of creature cards from your graveyard.” If Sutured Ghoul enters the battlefield from your graveyard, Sutured Ghoul itself can’t be exiled by this replacement effect.
I think it's obvious that is applies to The Mimeoplasm, too.
it can't be exiled, but it can be chosen to be exiled
if it is chosen it will not be exiled
proud member of the 2011 community team
It's hard to judge the intent of a rule like that. By "Sutured Ghoul can't be exiled," do they mean "You can't try to exile Suture Ghoul?" I don't know.

In any case, it's getting a clarification soon. I'm happy to switch to the upcoming rules preemptively.
ikegami, 2goth4U, have you read the example that is just after rule 614.13?

Example: Sutured Ghoul says, in part, “As Sutured Ghoul enters the battlefield, exile any number of creature cards from your graveyard.” If Sutured Ghoul enters the battlefield from your graveyard, Sutured Ghoul itself can’t be exiled by this replacement effect.
I think it's obvious that is applies to The Mimeoplasm, too.

Yes, I did. Nothing in the 614.13 example says you can't choose Sutured Ghoul. It only says that you can't exile it.

In fact, the example implies that it can be chosen. If you couldn't chose the Sutured Ghoul, how would the replacement effect ever be in a position to exile the Sutured Ghoul?
Note: choosing to exile Sutured Ghoul to itself wouldn't have any noticeable effect because its linked ability counts the number of cards it exiled that are in exile so it doesn't really matter whether you choose it or not

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Yes, I did. Nothing in the 614.13 example says you can't choose Sutured Ghoul. It only says that you can't exile it.

In fact, the example implies that it can be chosen. If you couldn't chose the Sutured Ghoul, how would the replacement effect ever be in a position to exile the Sutured Ghoul?

However, rule 608.2d says, in part (emphasis mine):
608.2d. If an effect of a spell or ability offers any choices other than choices already made as part of casting the spell, activating the ability, or otherwise putting the spell or ability on the stack, the player announces these while applying the effect. The player can't choose an option that's illegal or impossible [...] 

Since we know that Sutured Ghould exiling itself this way is impossible, you should not be able to choose it for its own effect. (Incidentally, this should mean that one Mimeoplasm alone cannot create an arbitrary loop by repeatedly choosing to exile itself, and that you indeed need two Mimeoplasms. Until the M13 rules go live, that is, then you can't pull that stunt anymore at all.)

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Yes, I did. Nothing in the 614.13 example says you can't choose Sutured Ghoul. It only says that you can't exile it.

In fact, the example implies that it can be chosen. If you couldn't chose the Sutured Ghoul, how would the replacement effect ever be in a position to exile the Sutured Ghoul?

However, rule 608.2d says, in part (emphasis mine):
608.2d. If an effect of a spell or ability offers any choices other than choices already made as part of casting the spell, activating the ability, or otherwise putting the spell or ability on the stack, the player announces these while applying the effect. The player can't choose an option that's illegal or impossible [...] 

Since we know that Sutured Ghould exiling itself this way is impossible, you should not be able to choose it for its own effect. (Incidentally, this should mean that one Mimeoplasm alone cannot create an arbitrary loop by repeatedly choosing to exile itself, and that you indeed need two Mimeoplasms. Until the M13 rules go live, that is, then you can't pull that stunt anymore at all.)

Thanks. This conflicts with my premise (post #24), and thus renders my argument (post #28) useless.
@GoblinBasar: That does seem to be a reasonable interpretation.

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