Staff with one hand-no rule for this?

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Hello friends


I know it is allowed to use a staff as an implement with only one hand. But was wondering if there is such a rule described in a book. Which book?

Player's Handbook 1?
They also explain in the weapons section about using a 1-handed weapon with 2 hands--in case you needed to use the staff as a club or something.
No, this passage does not solve the problem, unfortunately
In Character Builder it is possible, but is not in any rule book apparently.
I think the rules assume 1-handed staff use. There is no benefit for using both hands on a staff when using it as an implement. Plus it would hamper dual-implement spell casting.
I remember seeing something where wielding an implement is considered 'off-hand' but I can't find it right now.
Ours is a world where people don't know what they want, and are willing to go through hell to get it. -Don Marquis
If I remember correctly they slipped it into a passage in the Eberron campaign setting book, and I think that one was written in an off hand way. LIke.. rather than say "You can use a staff as an implement in one hand" it gives a staff as an example of the clearly well established rule that you can use implements in one hand regardless of the number of hands needed to use them as weapons, even though that rule is never spelled out anywhere.
I don't have books on me, but I think it might even have been buried in the embedded component rules. 
Not quite it, Istaran.  Looking at the book it does mention implements in regard to warforged components (great memory btw) but it specifically says that a staff is a 2h implement can cannot be attached or embedded.
Ours is a world where people don't know what they want, and are willing to go through hell to get it. -Don Marquis
It really is one of those things that is never quite explicitly stated. OTOH you can't really consistently read the rules for implements and various feats/items/etc under the assumption that some implements require two hands to use. Right from day one this has been relatively uncontroversial, though confusing. There simply IS no property of implements that would make them 'two handed' (or for that matter one-handed either). Actually, aside from actual defined weapons and the fact that improvised two-handed weapons weigh a certain amount there's really no guidance in the game AT ALL as to what requires you to use 2 hands. A famous example of this is climbing and shields. There is literally no requirement that you have your hands free in order to climb! Conan can simply walk up walls like a gecko if he makes his check (and with his STR that should be pretty easy generally). He can even fire his bow while he climbs!
That is not dead which may eternal lie
Not quite it, Istaran.  Looking at the book it does mention implements in regard to warforged components (great memory btw) but it specifically says that a staff is a 2h implement can cannot be attached or embedded.



This received errata

Component Traits Page 113: Delete the last line of the Implement section. The staff is a one-handed implement. It can be embedded in one hand and used an implement, but it cannot be used as a weapon because a quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon.

www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateEPG.pdf
Janx_14 Thanks, you helped a lot! Thankfully we can count on this forum!
Not quite it, Istaran.  Looking at the book it does mention implements in regard to warforged components (great memory btw) but it specifically says that a staff is a 2h implement can cannot be attached or embedded.



This received errata

Component Traits Page 113: Delete the last line of the Implement section. The staff is a one-handed implement. It can be embedded in one hand and used an implement, but it cannot be used as a weapon because a quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon.

www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateEPG.pdf


Woo! I was so close. I remembered where the ruling had slipped into rules form, but not that it had done so via errata.
However, obscurely placed errata though it may be, yes we do have an explicit rule that staffs are 1h as implements. This allows for both staff-wielding halfling sorcerers, and dual-staffing, and gandalf style staff + sword (though that is a little trickier to make practical). 

Oddly enough i think a hexblade with Arcane Implement Proficiency would be the easiest way to go. Staff of Ruin and all.


Oddly enough i think a hexblade with Arcane Implement Proficiency would be the easiest way to go. Staff of Ruin and all.




Ah, yes, that would work. Then you are attacking with the 'sword' and the staff at the same time, and can apply the enhancement and item bonus from the staff. You could possibly take AIP a second time to be able to add Dual Implement Spellcasting to add your enhancement bonus a third time.
Also:
   When you use a power associated with your pact weapon and the power has both the weapon and the implement keyword, you are considered to be wielding both your pact weapon and your implement for the purpose of feats and other game elements.


  and
Staff Expertise

Benefit: ...  When you make a melee weapon attack with a staff, the weapon’s reach for that attack increases by 1.




If your DM's head doesn't explode, maybe you can make reach attacks with your pact weapon implement/weapon attacks? They are melee weapon attacks that you make with a staff (as the implement).
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Hexblade + Pact Weapon + Staff expertise + AIP(Using a blade) + Dual Implement Spellcaster
-Attacks have reach (Staff Expertise)
-Pact Weapon is an implement (AIP)
-Gets both enhancement bonuses to damage (DIS)
-Gets +1/2/3 to attack (Staff Expertise)
  
It is in the PHB, however obscurely. Implements only need to be held, not wielded, and in a completely different section of the book it explains "holding" requires one hand.
It is in the PHB, however obscurely. Implements only need to be held, not wielded, and in a completely different section of the book it explains "holding" requires one hand.


Is that in errata? I was trying to find something similar in mine, but the entry on implements in the Wizard class section specifies several times that they must be wielding the implement in order to gain its benefits.
It is in the PHB, however obscurely. Implements only need to be held, not wielded, and in a completely different section of the book it explains "holding" requires one hand.


Is that in errata? I was trying to find something similar in mine, but the entry on implements in the Wizard class section specifies several times that they must be wielding the implement in order to gain its benefits.

That is because of a great deal of confusion surrounding the word "wielding." Implements aren't ever wielded, they are held. Makes several things that do require wielding an Implement not work by strict RAW, but it is safe to say you're wielding any Implement you're holding, since that is all that is required to use it in attacks.

So is this pretty much the reason why monks can get away with a quarterstaff in their main hand while still having a dagger in there offhand because there FRD are tech implement attacks lol?  Or am i off my rocker here.


So is this pretty much the reason why monks can get away with a quarterstaff in their main hand while still having a dagger in there offhand because there FRD are tech implement attacks lol?  Or am i off my rocker here.


No, actually. Monks are weird. Any weapon they are proficient with is an Implement, so long as they are wielding it as a weapon. Staff is a 2h weapon. Though several Monks MC into a class that have Staff Implements by default, so they can 1h it.

Well that’s odd because the builder lets me equip a 2h staff in the MH while still letting me have a OH dagger and it applies the needed bonuses without any of the MC stuff.


Well that’s odd because the builder lets me equip a 2h staff in the MH while still letting me have a OH dagger and it applies the needed bonuses without any of the MC stuff.


That'd be yet another reason why (say it with me now) "The Character Builds is Not A Rules Source."

I understand its not a rule source but there are a lot of rules to deal with and as such i just thought to point out it does allow it for one and two I've seen it mentioned before that Monks can tech use a 2h  in just there MH like a wizard would use his staff as its a implement when used through there Ki focus.  Monks are very odd and I especially understand the builder doesn't handle them very well at all.


I understand its not a rule source but there are a lot of rules to deal with and as such i just thought to point out it does allow it for one and two I've seen it mentioned before that Monks can tech use a 2h  in just there MH like a wizard would use his staff as its a implement when used through there Ki focus.  Monks are very odd and I especially understand the builder doesn't handle them very well at all.


? When you Ki Focusize a weapon for a weapon attack, it has to be wielded as a weapon, if you're making an Implement attack, the Ki Focus is the only thing that matters, you don't use held/wielded things at all.

There are a fair number of rules to deal with in general, but not so much for any specific class you happen to be playing. It'd be better if the builder was coded to reflect the rules, rather then simply takikng the easiest possible implementation path whether it is correct or not, but.... /shrug.
It'd be better if the builder was coded to reflect the rules


assumes that the devs know what the rules are
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
It'd be better if the builder was coded to reflect the rules


assumes that the devs know what the rules are

Technically it assumes that the third party company that implements the software knows what the rules are. Not sure if that is more or less likely.
Not quite it, Istaran.  Looking at the book it does mention implements in regard to warforged components (great memory btw) but it specifically says that a staff is a 2h implement can cannot be attached or embedded.



This received errata

Component Traits Page 113: Delete the last line of the Implement section. The staff is a one-handed implement. It can be embedded in one hand and used an implement, but it cannot be used as a weapon because a quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon.

www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateEPG.pdf

www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateEPG.pdf

Link seems to be broken. Any other source I can show my DM?
To clarify, his argument seems to be that A) Staff implements are always used 2-handed, and B) Even if this is somehow not true, a staff MUST be wielded 2-handed in order to derive any benefit from Staff Expertise.

As to the latter, I will certainly concede that the SE benefit of Reach +1 certainly requires 2-handed use, since staff-as-WEAPON requires 2-handed use.
Link works, maybe you need to be insider?

Staff Rule

So yes, part A) he is wrong, part B) he is half correct, you will gain the implement bonuses (attack bonus +1/2/3 and no provoking).