Twin Strike and Stone Fist Flurry of Blows

31 posts / 0 new
Last post
I got a question, does twin strike actually triggers Flurry of blows twice?

If so, please explain to me mechanically and with rules.
No.  Flurry of Blows triggers exactly ONCE per round, unless you have a specific ki focus.
Well... yes, the trigger is satisfied with both attacks of TS, but FoB is only useable once per round. There is a Ki Focus that allows FoB to trigger twice though.
Since it wasn't mentioned by name, I might as well: Blurred Strike Ki Focus. 
Heya everyone, here are my homebrew threads: (yes there is only one right now, but there are more to come!) And Let There Be Fish-Men: KUO-TOA
Also important to note is that if the hypothetical character is a Hybrid Ranger/Monk, Flurry of Blows won't trigger at all off of Twin Strike. A Hybrid Monk can only trigger Flurry of Blows off Monk and Monk Paragon Path attacks.
You will have to go with Half-Elf Monk and use versatile master+dilletante to get twin strike. Naturally this will not be at-will until level 11.
^
Probably a worse option, but you can also PMC Ranger to get the at-will Twin Strike. In the process though, you will gain other 2 attack type powers that will also trigger Blurred Strike Ki Focus. Heck, just switch all of your powers to ranger and be a better Monk. (Please don't actually do that.)

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

PMC Ranger is one of the few PMCs that works out for anybody. Plus, Monks don't have any truly build-defining PPs. So, you may as well do it, really, if you're into that sort of thing.
PMC Ranger is one of the few PMCs that works out for anybody. Plus, Monks don't have any truly build-defining PPs. So, you may as well do it, really, if you're into that sort of thing.

Eh, one optimized build based around Ranger PMC. Which is I suppose infinitely more often than it works out for anyone else...

Ghostwalker, think that is the name, for Centered Breath monks is actually pretty amazing and close to build-defining.
fyi, the kind of monk we are describing (twin strike+blurred strike ki focus) are generally called hyperflurry monks, and are among the few strategies to make monks post up strong single-target dpr.

I hit 150 dpr on a hyperflurry monk with Kulkor Arms Master once.  It was....complicated.

Pro tip:  with a barbarian MC you can end up throwing your fists as a ranged twin strike, and thus become Ryu/Ken/Akuma.  Hadouken!
fyi, the kind of monk we are describing (twin strike+blurred strike ki focus) are generally called hyperflurry monks, and are among the few strategies to make monks post up strong single-target dpr.

I hit 150 dpr on a hyperflurry monk with Kulkor Arms Master once.  It was....complicated.

Pro tip:  with a barbarian MC you can end up throwing your fists as a ranged twin strike, and thus become Ryu/Ken/Akuma.  Hadouken!



How does a Monk/(Ranger) PMC and also get MC Barbarian?

Or do you mean a Ranger/(barbarian)? (Which has nothing to do with flurry of blows + twinstrike)

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

fyi, the kind of monk we are describing (twin strike+blurred strike ki focus) are generally called hyperflurry monks, and are among the few strategies to make monks post up strong single-target dpr.

I hit 150 dpr on a hyperflurry monk with Kulkor Arms Master once.  It was....complicated.

Pro tip:  with a barbarian MC you can end up throwing your fists as a ranged twin strike, and thus become Ryu/Ken/Akuma.  Hadouken!



How does a Monk/(Ranger) PMC and also get MC Barbarian?

Or do you mean a Ranger/(barbarian)? (Which has nothing to do with flurry of blows + twinstrike)


Half-elf or Revenant(Half-elf) to pick up Twin Strike, MC Barbarian to pick up Hurl Weapon.  Since ranged twin strike is Dex, you don't need to MC ranger at all.
Silly Half Elf shenanigans. Aurg.

I see it. Ranged attacks with your monk... seems bad. I guess at paragon you have starblade flurry too. Now all you need is some way to make all those opportunity attacks (from making ranged attacks with enemies in your grill so your FoB does some good) against you into something positive. (There invariably is a way.)

Sometimes optimization makes me sad.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Silly Half Elf shenanigans. Aurg.

I see it. Ranged attacks with your monk... seems bad. I guess at paragon you have starblade flurry too. Now all you need is some way to make all those opportunity attacks (from making ranged attacks with enemies in your grill so your FoB does some good) against you into something positive. (There invariably is a way.)

Sometimes optimization makes me sad.


re: opportunity attacks.  There is a way, I've done it before.

re: damage.  I got up to 81ish single-target at-will dpr when I first made the build.  Not bad at all, and you're still a good monk.

re: Optimization.  Why sad?  This is just one example where you can create something via exploitation of rules that is fun and interesting.  As I just posted in the Monk handbook, this is my favorite way to mimic a hadouken.  I'd say the ability to recreate iconic characters is a worthy goal for optimization.  And this one doesn't even break any power level assumptions.
Personally, Half elf mess is by the rules, but seemingly broken in my opinion. I tend to stay away from it.

Most DM's will probably not allow you to "throw your fists" 5-10 sq. I understand it is well within the rules, however, it seems illogical.

On the other hand, I have been trying to break hurl weapon for a while and this is a fun and unique way of doing it. I was trying to do it as a seeker unsuccessfully. Throwing Battleaxes as a Seeker would be really fun. I tried to make it work but there was some minor wording that doesn't allow it to work. Sad face.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg)

Personally, Half elf mess is by the rules, but seemingly broken in my opinion. I tend to stay away from it.


I can understand that.  
Personally, I tend to judge what I'm okay with by the end product rather than the components.  Akuma's not broken, so the half-elf part doesn't bother me.  There are a few mechanics that are openly broken (KAM, for example), and even more that used to be broken (Windrise Ports, Fey Charge) to the point that I'd consider banning them as a DM if my group were the kind to abuse such, but most stuff (even the sticky stuff) I like to handle on a case by case basis.

tl;dr: I think the cool stuff people can do with stuff like Half-elf is easily worth the risk that they'll throw you a curveball.

Most DM's will probably not allow you to "throw your fists" 5-10 sq. I understand it is well within the rules, however, it seems illogical.


On the contrary, I think most DMs would enjoy the image of Akuma, once you show them that it's not overpowered (they won't be beating any bow rangers in raw damage).  DMs are subject to the Rule of Cool as much as the rest of us, they just have to consider game balance as well.  This is Cool, it's By the Book, and it's Not Overpowered.

It's all about how you present it.  Even if it weren't RAW, I'd consider houseruling it in if a player brought this to me.

On the other hand, I have been trying to break hurl weapon for a while and this is a fun and unique way of doing it. I was trying to do it as a seeker unsuccessfully. Throwing Battleaxes as a Seeker would be really fun. I tried to make it work but there was some minor wording that doesn't allow it to work. Sad face.


Frown  I hate when I spend time trying to make something work and it never does.
There are a few mechanics that are openly broken (KAM, for example), and even more that used to be broken (Windrise Ports, Fey Charge) to the point that I'd consider banning them as a DM if my group were the kind to abuse such, but most stuff (even the sticky stuff) I like to handle on a case by case basis.

You might have missed it, but KAM got the errata bat recently:

New wording of Kolkor Arms Master's 16th level feature Smite the Fallen

Smite the Fallen (16th level): Once per round, when you knock an enemy prone with a melee attack, you can deal damage to the target equal to half your level as a free action.

Unless you mean that even the new wording is broken, in which case it's me that's missed something.
There are a few mechanics that are openly broken (KAM, for example), and even more that used to be broken (Windrise Ports, Fey Charge) to the point that I'd consider banning them as a DM if my group were the kind to abuse such, but most stuff (even the sticky stuff) I like to handle on a case by case basis.

You might have missed it, but KAM got the errata bat recently:

New wording of Kolkor Arms Master's 16th level feature Smite the Fallen

Smite the Fallen (16th level): Once per round, when you knock an enemy prone with a melee attack, you can deal damage to the target equal to half your level as a free action.

Unless you mean that even the new wording is broken, in which case it's me that's missed something.


I did miss that.   I assume there was much singing of "Ding, dong, the witch is dead"?
And in the next errata, much posting of "KAM!  Er wait...."
How effective is the Twin Strike + Flurry of Blows = Hadouken? From the looks of it, it doesn't come to fruition until 11th level and it's pretty feat intensive. And on top of that, doesn't it really lag behind the curve because it's a Weapon attack, target's AC, and deals minimal damage even with Flurry of Blows? I want to make it work to create a Ryu character but I don't know if it's viable.
How effective is the Twin Strike + Flurry of Blows = Hadouken? From the looks of it, it doesn't come to fruition until 11th level and it's pretty feat intensive. And on top of that, doesn't it really lag behind the curve because it's a Weapon attack, target's AC, and deals minimal damage even with Flurry of Blows? I want to make it work to create a Ryu character but I don't know if it's viable.

The highest damage at-will in the game gets a boost... and you think it is going to lag behind? That makes no sense.
I did miss that.   I assume there was much singing of "Ding, dong, the witch is dead"?

Pretty much. RenZhe described KAM's murder as "reasonably elegant", monkeygentleman described the new corpse as "nice looking", GelatinousOctahedron agreed and elaborated that non-dwarf wardens might still want to cozy up to it. At that point everyone looked at each other awkwardly, but only for a moment, then resumed singing kumbaya.
How effective is the Twin Strike + Flurry of Blows = Hadouken? From the looks of it, it doesn't come to fruition until 11th level and it's pretty feat intensive. And on top of that, doesn't it really lag behind the curve because it's a Weapon attack, target's AC, and deals minimal damage even with Flurry of Blows? I want to make it work to create a Ryu character but I don't know if it's viable.

The highest damage at-will in the game gets a boost... and you think it is going to lag behind? That makes no sense.



It was more a question if the attack bonus would lag, which it would at +14 to +16 vs. AC. Most creatures in the level 11 to 13 range have AC in the high 20's, possibly 30 if they're Solo. So that means you've got approx 25% to 35% chance of hitting on either attack every round (if you chose to attack with Twin Strike). So it begs the question, Is it worth it?

Also, looking at the damage side, yes I think there are some problems here as well. The ranger utilizes Twin Strike with No Action and Minor Action attacks AND Quarry damage. Add in weapon properties and feat properties and you don't need to add your Ability score modifier to get a great DPR output. The Monk, however, doesn't have most of these luxuries. They don't have many (if at all) No Action, Minor Action, Out of Turn attacks and their scaling damge is build into hitting things. Furthermore, they don't get weapon properties because they're using their fists (unless your enchanting their fists?) But even so, that would mean that not only have to upkeep their Ki Focus but weapons too. 
How effective is the Twin Strike + Flurry of Blows = Hadouken? From the looks of it, it doesn't come to fruition until 11th level and it's pretty feat intensive. And on top of that, doesn't it really lag behind the curve because it's a Weapon attack, target's AC, and deals minimal damage even with Flurry of Blows? I want to make it work to create a Ryu character but I don't know if it's viable.

The highest damage at-will in the game gets a boost... and you think it is going to lag behind? That makes no sense.



It was more a question if the attack bonus would lag, which it would at +14 to +16 vs. AC. Most creatures in the level 11 to 13 range have AC in the high 20's, possibly 30 if they're Solo. So that means you've got approx 25% to 35% chance of hitting on either attack every round (if you chose to attack with Twin Strike). So it begs the question, Is it worth it?

Also, looking at the damage side, yes I think there are some problems here as well. The ranger utilizes Twin Strike with No Action and Minor Action attacks AND Quarry damage. Add in weapon properties and feat properties and you don't need to add your Ability score modifier to get a great DPR output. The Monk, however, doesn't have most of these luxuries. They don't have many (if at all) No Action, Minor Action, Out of Turn attacks and their scaling damge is build into hitting things. Furthermore, they don't get weapon properties because they're using their fists (unless your enchanting their fists?) But even so, that would mean that not only have to upkeep their Ki Focus but weapons too. 



I built a desert wind monk that used twin strike and blurred ki focus that alternated between blistering flourish and twin strike.  The rounds he did twin strike it would do 6d10+68.  While most are not used to that kind of damage from a monk, he could also spread the damage around and do extra damage to up to 2 targets adjacent to him and 2 more within 5 squares.

Also, I think you have the unarmed figured out wrong.

3 - prof
5 - L11
3 - ki focus enhancement
2 - ki focus expertise
4 - stat mod(str18 at L11 assuming you stick with str and don't change it)
+17 to hit and you can go higher depending on how you spread your points

The point is that twin strike + blurred ki focus = big damage.  It is easily possible for a monk to match the damage you do with hunter's quarry up through paragon.  And the ability to get it twice a round can be huge.  Everyone is focused on stone fist FoB.  Don't forget there are others that can really take advantage of feats.  In my case I focused on Dex and Cha.  Desert wind FoB is 2+cha but after blistering flourish, it gets +cha again.  And blistering flourish also adds +cha to each hit of twin strike and adds fire.  So the round after blistering flourish, your twin strike hits for 1[w]+cha+riders.  Add a were theme and claw gloves and you get +1d10 if you have combat advantage with each hit of twin strike, oh, and each hit of FoB as well because it is a melee attack.  So if you had 3 targets, each one would take 1d10+2+cha+cha+(anything from feats or magic items). 

So while they need the targets, a monk with twin strike, desert wind FoB, a were theme and claw gloves could dish out, with an at will, 10d10+cha*8+riders.  Though I will admit that is every other round.
Monster AC is level+14. So that is 25 @11, the AC bump for solos was errata'd out. Twin Strike will have +5 (Dex)+3 (Prof)+2 (Expertise)+2-3(Enhance)+2 (CA, and if you don't have CA... why?)+5 (1/2 level) for a total of +19-20. Before adding in any other fairly standard accuracy boosters for an optimized striker. So you're hitting on a 5-6. Not sure where you got your numbers from, but they are pretty far off. You can get both Minor and out of turn attacks as a Monk, via themes for one thing.

It probably won't win any DPR competitions or anything, but it'll more then make optimized baseline. And actually... you're MCing Barbarian for Hurl Weapon, you could take the Barb PP that turns all untyped damage to cold at 16. So not only will the Twin Strike be triggering Permafrost, but both Flurries will as well.

Sidenote: Quarry is basically irrelevant to the Ranger's damage. It is all about multi-attacks and high static mods, which is all Twin Strike+Blurred Strike Ki Focus is doing.

Ah, ok well it's a safe bet that I'm a moron, lol. I looked again at the CB because I had no idea why my Twin Strike was only +14.......apparently I didn't attach the Ki Focus (doh!). So with a +17 it's looking more like it's definitly a viable option. Sorry the the resistance, lol.


Ah, ok well it's a safe bet that I'm a moron, lol. I looked again at the CB because I had no idea why my Twin Strike was only +14.......apparently I didn't attach the Ki Focus (doh!). So with a +17 it's looking more like it's definitly a viable option. Sorry the the resistance, lol.




Happens, I went to a Con here in San Antonio with some quick prebuilt LFR characters and had made them so fast I didn't equip anything.  Only takes a minute to figure it all out.
Also important to note is that if the hypothetical character is a Hybrid Ranger/Monk, Flurry of Blows won't trigger at all off of Twin Strike. A Hybrid Monk can only trigger Flurry of Blows off Monk and Monk Paragon Path attacks.



I know this is fairly old but I build up a Thri-Kreen non-hybrid monk to do this, you dont really need ranger monks have plenty of multihit attacks and in paragon you can add 2 MORE FoB'with Thri-Kreen Thrower/SHooter and the Unseen Hand PP combine that with Slashing Kama style and as many melee damage boosts as possible (four arm flurry, crashing tempest style, iron armbands of power, kin weapon,etc.) and you'll be handing out rediculous amount of ongoing damage to up to 4 targets in paragon (2 in Heroic)

Its really feat heavy though and doesn't really leand itself to hybriding....oh and if you take one of the Were-Theme's you can add another 1d10 to any melee attacks (this includes FoB) at level 10 
Slashing Kama Style only converts one of the flurry targets (and it has to be next to you) into ongoing damage.  Not all of the targets regardless of range.
Ours is a world where people don't know what they want, and are willing to go through hell to get it. -Don Marquis
How effective is the Twin Strike + Flurry of Blows = Hadouken? From the looks of it, it doesn't come to fruition until 11th level and it's pretty feat intensive. And on top of that, doesn't it really lag behind the curve because it's a Weapon attack, target's AC, and deals minimal damage even with Flurry of Blows? I want to make it work to create a Ryu character but I don't know if it's viable.

The highest damage at-will in the game gets a boost... and you think it is going to lag behind? That makes no sense.



It was more a question if the attack bonus would lag, which it would at +14 to +16 vs. AC. Most creatures in the level 11 to 13 range have AC in the high 20's, possibly 30 if they're Solo. So that means you've got approx 25% to 35% chance of hitting on either attack every round (if you chose to attack with Twin Strike). So it begs the question, Is it worth it?

Also, looking at the damage side, yes I think there are some problems here as well. The ranger utilizes Twin Strike with No Action and Minor Action attacks AND Quarry damage. Add in weapon properties and feat properties and you don't need to add your Ability score modifier to get a great DPR output. The Monk, however, doesn't have most of these luxuries. They don't have many (if at all) No Action, Minor Action, Out of Turn attacks and their scaling damge is build into hitting things. Furthermore, they don't get weapon properties because they're using their fists (unless your enchanting their fists?) But even so, that would mean that not only have to upkeep their Ki Focus but weapons too. 



I built a desert wind monk that used twin strike and blurred ki focus that alternated between blistering flourish and twin strike.  The rounds he did twin strike it would do 6d10+68.  While most are not used to that kind of damage from a monk, he could also spread the damage around and do extra damage to up to 2 targets adjacent to him and 2 more within 5 squares.

Also, I think you have the unarmed figured out wrong.

3 - prof
5 - L11
3 - ki focus enhancement
2 - ki focus expertise
4 - stat mod(str18 at L11 assuming you stick with str and don't change it)
+17 to hit and you can go higher depending on how you spread your points

The point is that twin strike + blurred ki focus = big damage.  It is easily possible for a monk to match the damage you do with hunter's quarry up through paragon.  And the ability to get it twice a round can be huge.  Everyone is focused on stone fist FoB.  Don't forget there are others that can really take advantage of feats.  In my case I focused on Dex and Cha.  Desert wind FoB is 2+cha but after blistering flourish, it gets +cha again.  And blistering flourish also adds +cha to each hit of twin strike and adds fire.  So the round after blistering flourish, your twin strike hits for 1[w]+cha+riders.  Add a were theme and claw gloves and you get +1d10 if you have combat advantage with each hit of twin strike, oh, and each hit of FoB as well because it is a melee attack.  So if you had 3 targets, each one would take 1d10+2+cha+cha+(anything from feats or magic items). 

So while they need the targets, a monk with twin strike, desert wind FoB, a were theme and claw gloves could dish out, with an at will, 10d10+cha*8+riders.  Though I will admit that is every other round.



wow  any chance I can see a lev 11 version of this build?
Not going to build it out completely, just touch up on a few things.

Half Elf Desert Wind Monk
Dex/Cha 16 to start, raise them every chance you get

At Wills:  Twin Strike, Blistering Flourish
Feats: Adept Dilettante, Versatile Master(paragon), Starblade Flurry(paragon)
Theme: Weretheme
Items: Claw Gloves, Blurred Strike Ki Focus