In what order would you take these feats as a Pacifist Healer?

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I'm sorry for posting this so last minute but I would like to know what feats I should have so far for my lv9 cleric.  Tomorrow evening is when my group plays.  Here are the feats I plan to take for my character's career.  Please let me know if I should completely swap out a feat for something better.

Level 01: Ritual Caster
Level 01: Pacifist Healer
Level 02: Mark of Healing (retrain @lv24 -> Epic Fortitude)
Level 04: Defensive Healing Word
Level 06: Healer's Implement
Level 08: Coordinated Explosion
Level 10: Superior Implement Training (Accuracy)
Level 11: Shield Proficiency: Light
Level 12: Versatile Expertise (Mace & Holy Symbol)
Level 14: Improved Defenses
Level 16: Assured Healing
Level 18: Gambler's Word
Level 20: Invigorating Critical
Level 21: Supreme Healer
Level 22: Glorious Channeler
Level 24: Shared Healing
Level 26: Beatific Healing
Level 28: Divine Mastery
Level 30: Shield Proficiency: Heavy

- Pete
I would put Healer's Implement to a later stage, as I can't imagine, you will have any problems with the amount of healing. This will already let you start with an accurate implement. Depending on your overall accuracy you could retrain out of Coordinated Explosion in Paragon, to accelerate the progression.
Don't take Versatile Expertise!
Since you want to use a shield, take Devout Protector Expertise to buff the defenses of your allies.

IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_iswhite.jpg)

You shouldn't play a Pacifist Healer at all. A Character who provides a minimal damage contribution to combat (in the form of attack bonuses, and enemy vulnerability) is about as useful as a Striker who is always weakened. All of the control, buffs, and debuffs are available to all clerics, so there's no reason to set yourself up as someone who can't deal damage well themselves.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Coordinated explosion should be far down on your list, since its situational vs the always on bonus from having a superior implement or expertise feat.  Generally you are going to want holy symobl expertise over versatile expertise on a pacifist as well.  Coordinated explosion is the sort of feat you take when you have made sure you have everything else covered and want a little more accuracy.

You shouldn't be taking the shield proficiency feats since Battle Clerics Lore is better for any cleric and it will boost your AC more on top of that.  And then you can dump strength some and put the points into con instead.

Don't retrain out mark of healing.

Invigorating critical is probably overkill for healing.   You probably won't need shared healing either.

Feats I would want to add: last legion officer, multiclass something, do something for your initiative like battlewise, superior will, shielding word, racial feat (depends on your race), epic reflexes, armored by faith.
Pacifist healers can be useful, but they need to not focus primarily on healing.  They should be focused on provoking OAs and giving allies attack rerolls while debuffing enemies.  And they should be taking some damaging powers, ones that don't trigger the stun and at least 1 encounter power at higher levels to use when no one is bloodied.
All of which can be done by non-pacifists. The only gain from the Pacifist Healer feat is that you contribute 1w+mainstat mod less DPR in exchange for 1d6/tier+cha mod healing per power. The only reason you'd need more healing than a cleric can already provide is if combats are taking longer for some reason ... oh right, you're doing no damage so of course combats are taking longer. Sorry, but the answer is always "deal more damage", Pacifist Healer is the cause of the problem that it's trying to fix.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Pacifist healer is my least favorite general cleric build because of that and the only one I won't play, but its not like its useless.

If you are already planning on building your cleric around non-stun triggering powers, then its a nice boost to healing especially at low levels.
The fact that you refuse to play it should really tell you all that you need to know. Don't be a party liability if you can avoid it - there are other ways to go about being a pacifist.
Since Naus isn't here to defend it, I'll chime in. Pacifiicsts work well enough... in the right party. The non-damaging Cleric spells have a strong controller component, for the most part, so you can sort of be a controller+leader. But the optimial party for that is 3x striker, 1x defender, and the Pacy, where the strikers focus exclusively on offense and depend on the Cleric for saves, buffs, and healing almost exclusively. If your party isn't willing to build around you then they are just silly.
Nothing's stopping you from taking said non-damaging spells if they're the best choice at that level as a normal Cleric, though. Needlessly shortening your power list for a benefit that's only useful because you're not contributing offense is a positively backward way to go about things, and should not be promoted within the CharOp environment, in my opinion.
to say nothing of how that party wants a warlord far more than it wants a cleric.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Brilliant.

What order should I take my feats in?

Don't play your build, we don't like it.

Another slam dunk.
Brilliant. What order should I take my feats in? Don't play your build, we don't like it. Another slam dunk.



Thats not what was said at all. We merely said that HE CAN DO 98% of what he wanted to, while BEING BETTER, if he ditched Pacifist healer.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I'm not on the badwagon for Battle Cleric's Lore for a pacifist. Healer's Lore is not insignificant. I think it's fine if you want to spend the feat for the light shield, and flip one point of AC bonus to reflex, and open the door for Devout Protector Expertise, which is particularly good if your allies don't have shield bonus to AC (barbarians, slayers, hunters, and the like). But if you already have a paladin or such with DPE, then your resources are spent better elsewhere.

Superior Will and maybe Focused Resilience need to make their way into your feat list. And you don't seem to be picking up any racial support. For instance, for a half-elf, direct the strike and versatile master solves all your bloodied enemy problems. I'd get holy symbol expertise earlier on, and retrain to devout protector expertise when you pick up the shield proficiency. I'd leave accurate implement for later.

Leaving it race neutral, I'd do something like:

1. Pacifist Healer
2. Holy Symbol Expertise (retrained to Devout Protector Expertise at 12)
4. Resourceful Leader (or some other MC)
6. Mark of Healing
8. Superior Will
10. Superior Implement (or healer's implement, or racial feat, or battlewise, or warlord power swap, or skill power)
11. Improved Defenses
12. Shield Proficiency (Light)
14. Focused Resilience
16. Last Legion Officer

Choice of race and multiclass, as well as your party make up could affect some of this.

From there, I don't have any strong feelings about the order, pick up what you didn't earlier on, though Epic Reflexes and Superior Initiative are likely what I would pick early at epic, after Supreme Healer.

Not too surprisingly, if you remove the pacifist healer feat, and replace it with something else, you still have a perfectly functional cleric, though you would probably want Implement Focus some time in paragon.

Also your DM's play style may factor into the build. I feel a pacifist healer needs some seriously good defensive tricks. When I DM, any smart monsters make healers a prime target. But if you have a DM that ignores you when you stand in the back, then a lot of the defensive feats aren't as needed.

As to the topic of playing Pacifist Healer's, I don't play them (I'd rather play a pacifist warlord any day of the week), but I've seen a few of them in play. When they are on my team, I feel I can play my character a bit bolder, knowing there is a fountain of healing behind me, taking bigger risks for bigger rewards. When I'm DM'ing just watching massive amounts of damage the monsters dealt be negated by one minor action, just paints a bull's eye for me on the pacifist cleric, I become down right blood thirsty. I don't recommend people playing pacifist clerics in my games, because I feel their damage contribution is insufficient for the speed with which I'd like to resolve encounters, and I tend to kill them.
annnnnddd Warlords kill things before threats even appear
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Brilliant. What order should I take my feats in? Don't play your build, we don't like it. Another slam dunk.



Not liking the build =/= not playing it. Letting someone know that their build is sub-optimal is part and parcel of the function of these boards. Now, it's up to him to make an informed decision on whether to keep or change those parts of it.
.. just paints a bull's eye for me on the pacifist cleric, I become down right blood thirsty. I don't recommend people playing pacifist clerics in my games, because I feel their damage contribution is insufficient for the speed with which I'd like to resolve encounters, and I tend to kill them.



THIS


The question has been asked what the benefit is of a pacifist healer.

I have been playing a pacifist healer and I can say that it might not be the most optimized build out there it is plenty good.
There are plenty of great debuffs that indirectly add to the damage output of the party. Infact in combination with the runepriest bonusses we have in our party we have brought down monsters that the DM threw in to scare us without to much difficulty.

With me using astral seal all the time there is also a lot of surgeless healing so although the fight might last a round or so longer becuase I hardly do any direct damage the party comes out of a lot of fights without having used a single surge in the end making it that the party can take on a lot more enounters then parties with other healers.

I do feel though that you need to have a large party for the pacifist to really shine. I am playing the PC in a party with six characters so I can overspecialice a little without it hurting the party ;)

Anyhow back to the build

Assured healing at lvl 16?? I prefer it at lvl 11 right away personally. That is definately one of your best feats. Astral seal misses and wohooo surgeless healing. It hits and a -2 on defences and wohooo surgeless healing waiting to happen. xD

Versatile Expertise sounds OK but it's just not good enough. Just look at when the bonus increases and compare to others. You want that +2 bonus on lvl 11. Better to chose implement and focus on that. Concider Holy implement expertise.

Mark of Healing is definately awesome. Keep it when possible. (My DM felt it was to Ebberon so he ruled I couldn't use it. )

With the rest of the order it depends really how you plan on playing and what your party is like.

For example I chose Distant advantage becuase my party has several melee people and there is almost always something flanked and often that is exactly the one I want to debuff for my allies to take it down quickly.

I also made my cleric with the plan to focus on surgeless healing so feats like defensive healing word are less interesting for me becuase I like to use my healingwords only as a last resort trying to keep as many healing surges in the party as possible.

You didn't ask for items but I realy loved Healer's Brooch, Mace of Healing (well DUH ;) ), Symbol of the Warpriest and Healers armor. I'm sure there are others though. ;)
They fixed versatile expertise so it now scales properly.  He should still probably take a different expertise feat, either one of the implement ones or devout protector expertise if he sticks with a shield.
They fixed versatile expertise so it now scales properly.  He should still probably take a different expertise feat, either one of the implement ones or devout protector expertise if he sticks with a shield.

Ahh missed that one. All these errata's will kill someone some day if it hasn't done so already. xD
Brilliant. What order should I take my feats in? Don't play your build, we don't like it. Another slam dunk.



Not liking the build =/= not playing it. Letting someone know that their build is sub-optimal is part and parcel of the function of these boards. Now, it's up to him to make an informed decision on whether to keep or change those parts of it.



Sure, presenting options and advice never hurts.

You shouldn't play a Pacifist Healer at all.



This, though, is what he was referring to.  And no, that's not acceptable "advice."  Especially if you don't actually answer the question asked.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

Why not use a staff and take Haft Defense and Staff Expertise rather than shield proficiency and versitile expertise.  


Haft Defense gives you the shield bonus to AC and Reflex and Staff Expertise gets you REACH!  Then you can grab some damaging encounter powers that drop some buffs on your allies and hang behind the defender while hitting.  


Also to increase you damage output, go halfelf and diletante directed strike or commanders strike.  While your healing is awesome, once you are pacifist, you can focus on other thing - granting saves, boosting defenses, debuffing enemies - rather than further boosting.


For what its worth, I kinda like the pacifist for the ability to bring other from the brink of unconscious to not even bloodied in a snap.


TjD

I agree with Alcestis, the Pacifist needs a specific party to viable. At that point you'll be more than a nuisance.

If you don't have that kind of party, it's better if you follow a Str/Wis cleric route.

Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)


Why not use a staff and take Haft Defense and Staff Expertise rather than shield proficiency and versitile expertise.  


Haft Defense gives you the shield bonus to AC and Reflex and Staff Expertise gets you REACH!  Then you can grab some damaging encounter powers that drop some buffs on your allies and hang behind the defender while hitting.  



The Cleric is not proficient in using staffs as implements by itself. So he would need a multiclass first, which amounts to two feats. But adding to that, he probably wanted to use a healer's shield.

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I agree with Alcestis, the Pacifist needs a specific party to viable. At that point you'll be more than a nuisance.

If you don't have that kind of party, it's better if you follow a Str/Wis cleric route.



Except Nausi, Alcestis' party begs for a Warlord or Bard, not a cleric.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
You shouldn't play a Pacifist Healer at all.



This, though, is what he was referring to.  And no, that's not acceptable "advice."  Especially if you don't actually answer the question asked.


Oh get off it. I was plenty clear in that post, and my following post exactly what the problem with a pacifist cleric is. "Do not play a Pacifist Healer" = "Do not take the Pacifist Healer" feat, not "Your character is terrible and you need to start over". You're accusing me of attacking his entire build, this is not the strawman you're looking for.

If you want to define "Pacifist Healer" by conceptual RP standards, there is a different forum where we can have a discussion about why having someone in your party whom is entirely against the concept of hurting other living creatures is quite possibly the only thing more annoying than a 3.x Paladin/Knight in a campaign based around Sigil and the Demonweb pits campaign.

Spending a feat on Pacifist Healer and then making that work is akin to making the conscious decision to play a (non-hybrid) Lazy Warlord, not only is it outright weaker overall, you are restricting your character options to fewer powers, fewer feats (and some feats you now HAVE to take to function), fewer items that are useful (Why take bracers so you can use an attack power when you could just use that attack power anyway!)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I agree with Alcestis, the Pacifist needs a specific party to viable. At that point you'll be more than a nuisance.

If you don't have that kind of party, it's better if you follow a Str/Wis cleric route.



Except Nausi, Alcestis' party begs for a Warlord or Bard, not a cleric.



Well, i didn't take a look to his party setup ^^

Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)

My suggestion if you're starting at level 9 is to move Pacifist Healer to the Level 10 feat slot. If you find you need the extra healing you can pick it up, if not, you have a fine ranged cleric and still attack bloodied stuff.
I should've clarified and/or given more information. For that I am sorry. I'm about to start tonight's session so I'll give more details when I get back home. Thank you for all of the comments so far!
Im new to D&D 4e and am making a Cleric - thinking about Pacifist Healer. I am a WIS CHA Cleric and the extra heals seem good. I am in a party of a Melee Ranger, Barbarian, Monk and Wizard and maybe a Paladin or Ranger.


So, for Pacifist Healer, I can attack early on, then as people get hurt later on, I would start healing and not attacking, so I do not see too much downside for a healer type.

If I do damage a bloodied enemy, am I automatically stunned? Or do I get a will save? Against what DC? What feats would prevent my stunning?


If i hit an unbloodied target who goes bloodied after my damage is done am I safe?   
  
They have errated the pacifist healer feat a couple of times now, but to clarify how it works now:  if you roll a d20 to attack and the attack then damages an already bloodied enemy you are stunned.  No save or anything.  If you don't make an attack roll and damage a bloodied enemy such as with the powers blade barrier, consecrated ground, peacemaker's light, or with ongoing damage, then you are not stunned.

However, you can mitigate automatic stuns to some extent with the feat superior will, which you should be taking anyways.  That lets you roll a save vs stunned at the beginning of your turn, even if normally you can't make a save vs the stun.  There are no save DCs in 4E, its a straight d20 with a roll of 10 or higher meaning you make it.  There are a handful of feats and items that will boost that save if you take them.

And if you go pacifst healer make sure to take powers like cause fear and deadly lure.  That will at least let your strikers get some free OAs. 

Edit: Prophetic guidance should be one of the first powers you take as well.  And you will always be attacking, almost every round.  But you will mostly be using attacks that debuff and heal instead of doing direct damage.
They have errated the pacifist healer feat a couple of times now, but to clarify how it works now:  if you roll a d20 to attack and the attack then damages an already bloodied enemy you are stunned.  No save or anything.  If you don't make an attack roll and damage a bloodied enemy such as with the powers blade barrier, consecrated ground, peacemaker's light, or with ongoing damage, then you are not stunned.

However, you can mitigate automatic stuns to some extent with the feat superior will, which you should be taking anyways.  That lets you roll a save vs stunned at the beginning of your turn, even if normally you can't make a save vs the stun.  There are no save DCs in 4E, its a straight d20 with a roll of 10 or higher meaning you make it.  There are a handful of feats and items that will boost that save if you take them.

And if you go pacifst healer make sure to take powers like cause fear and deadly lure.  That will at least let your strikers get some free OAs. 

Edit: Prophetic guidance should be one of the first powers you take as well.  And you will always be attacking, almost every round.  But you will mostly be using attacks that debuff and heal instead of doing direct damage.



That is why Astral Seal is almost always chosen as one at-will for pacifist types. It is accurate and debuffs, although its healing might need some work from your group to get it to the right person.

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I agree that Pacifist Healers are probably not optimal, but I played one in a recent Level 30 campaign. It was a lot of fun, even though there were times where I wish I had better attacks. However, being able to go through battles and not have to use Healing Word and everyone was still pretty topped up, was epic. The way I built it, Astral Seal healed the next player 54, or I could heal someone for 52 if I missed. They are pretty rediculous at healing and their debuffs are pretty good. Healing Words at 11d6+38 (or something like that) for the first and 9d6+38 for the second, plus Shield of Devotions that heal for 62 is amazing. They can be fun, but I agree they can make the game run longer and not be optimal for any party. But isn't the point of D&D to have fun in the first place? 
If you have fun making the game a grind, more power to you. But here at CharOp we deal in how to make strong characters, because that's how we have fun. The Pacifist Healer is not the strongest Cleric you can make, and as such it should be warned against, same as the Lazy (non-Hybrid) Warlord.
Pacifist healer is a powerful build for what you are building for.  You will be able to heal the CRAP out of people...and otherwise be half useless.  You can also op another leader, or even the same cleric for healing while not being a pacifist.  This is the point being made.
Color me stupid, but what precludes a pacifist cleric from building and playing exactly like a laser cleric, only it takes a non-damaging encounter power or two and Astral Seal, then just lasering at non-bloodied enemies? Sure, focus firing bloodied enemies turns them into dead enemies that no longer inflict damage and clutter the battlefield. But the way people are jumping on this feat makes me think it somehow sets the cleric's damage to 0. Plus, unless you already hit on a 2, the -2 to defenses would concievably bump everyone elses DPR when the cleric is faced with the bloodied solo and no other enemies to laser.
Because the benefit you get for forcing yourself into specific powers and screwing with focus firing isn't worth it, as we've stated multiple times.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
i don't agree with all the hate towards a pacifist or lazy lords, itI about optimizing role playing with character optimization.  Personly, I would consider a Cleric|Warlord build using Battle Cleric, with Astral Seal and Direct The Strike.   Then you will also be able to take powers like (i.e.) Powerful Warning, Herioc Effort (Warlord) with Stream of Life, Denunciation, Iron to Glass or Scent of Victory, Warlord's Recovery or Rebuke Violence, and War Master's Assualt. As a hybrid, you can take what's best fitted or theme to your character. 

The group I play with has difficulty at focus firing, also making combat last longer, so I view Astral Seal as way to get my team members a way to focus fire.  As the leader, I'll delay my turn just before theirs and use Astral Seal. If they want the healing they'll need to attack my target.  Plus if you carefully watch combat rolls, there are a number of times my team mates miss their attacks by 1 or 2 points, with Astral Seal, it will allow them to hit more often.  At other times I can use Direct The Strike when the Slayer gouge user in my group has a guy pinned down with the Headsman Chop feat. 

To the previous commenters, how did Astral Seal get a 52 on a miss?  Assured Healing is awesome, but I am not sure what fully works with it.  
Do you realize you're responding to a thread that hasn't been active in 7 months?
I apologize, I missed that. 
The hate for pacifists is based on a couple of things.

Clerics already struggle with speeding up fights compared to most other leaders.  Pacifist clerics tend to make that problem even worse since they do less damage than other clerics without adding enough to make up for it since clerics can already heal really well without the feat.

You are making sure you can't use some of the best powers the cleric has whenever you want to.  Sometimes the pacifist powers are the best choices, but they usually aren't and really good powers like death surge, sacred flame, flame strike, and searing light all risk triggering a stun.

Pacifist powers tend to have charisma riders, which means your fort and reflex are both going to be bad if you invest in charisma.  Wis clerics often are better off with constitution as their secondary.

The other problem is that most of the time the people who do make pacifist builds don't make good choices.  They spend too many feats and items boosting healing and don't take the powers that can speed things up if used right.  Cause fear for instance can potentially provoke a lot of OAs from strikers and defenders with the right set up and prophetic guidance can speed things up, particularly at low levels, but a lot of time you see something like exacting utterance taken instead.
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