Mechanics Suggestion: Let's make CHA more useful.

Ive been playing 5th/Next for the past few weeks and I am abosolutely loving it.
However I do have a few concerns mechanically; the majority of which are covered many many Many times over. (Surprise and cover rules needing work, Fighters needing some fleshing out, somes rules text needs to be better defined)

What I will do tho is cover one that hasn't been covered.
In my experience, from playtesting this system I have a lot of concern that CHA will become a dump stat to classes that arent centered around it. Now the easy answer is (So?, INT is the same way) which to an extent is true but all of the knowledge checks are based around INT, something that sees much more play than say Diplomacy. What I mean by that is not that Diplomacy or bluff are obsolete skills but they have less of an impact if you are poor with it. At the end of the day, if youre a good roleplayer and you can role play out a situation your DM is not going to punish you for having a poor CHA. 

Second of all, most of the stats have some sort of mechanical advantage in investing them. (Str boosts damage and encumberance, Dex boosts AC, Con boosts HP, Int ...nothing just yet but easily can be tied with skills not using the background system, Wis is your equivilent will save and your perception roll) Now, this may just be complaining on my part but what I would suggest is a flip flopping of some of the advantages. (Of course, feel free to tell me how much I suck at this :P )

1. Change most mind influencing effects to be Vs. Cha rather than Wis. What would explain this is your character's force of personality or ego holding them off.  Let's be honest, Wis has enough value already being the 'spot' stat, the 'survival' stat, and the 'divine magic' stat.

2.  Offer early game feats that allow for morale bonuses based on Cha checks.

Now we could make CHA more prevelent in class abilities but honestly that's more of a band-aid on the problem. Classes are already based on specific stats and unless there's enough already n the class to justify investment, players will not use it. Players are already stretched on points as it is, no need to make it worse.

(Just my thoughts) 
Sounds good to me:


• Wisdom = Perception of details, awareness, intuition about environment, art, create/discern deception
• Charisma = Willpower, identity, intuition about people, influence, friendship/intimidation


Some divine classes might focus on Wisdom for Zen-like awareness and meditation. Other classes on Charisma for identity and community.  

Some people have IT. You may have seen it at your office, on the football field, at your church, or in any crucible where leaders must emerge for groups to work effectively together. CHA should represent that IT more thoroughly.

Few Things Benefit A Party More Than Effective Leadership- Did you ever work on a group project where no one was able to provide inspiration, creativity, or direction? Being motivated, focused, and confident in your unit delivers better results, period. CHA should be the static delivery system that tangibly represents that, no roll required. An example would be: The entire party receives an initiative bonus equal to the highest CHA modifier in the party. Why? Because that person's charisma has the party loose and relaxed, or pumped up and ready to rock. The charismatic person gets the most out of the people around them, so how could that NOT include the party, whose buttons they know how to push best.

Interacting with NPC's- D&D handles CHA most effectively via direct communication with NPCs: Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate.

Leading by example- Not every leader is a "rah-rah" guy. DMs need to take into account that for many people actions speak louder than words, rather than lean 100% on RP. Make some Passive Inspiration CHA rolls to show how someone with exceptional charisma can affect people by showing and not telling. This helps players who are not gregarious effectively play high CHA characters, and it is the way the world works.

Willpower- Ignoring pain and fear goes beyond physical constitution, you need inner strength and determination. Why does Rocky keep getting up? CON alone did not drive Rudy or Samwise when the chips were down (thanks Sean Astin) "Heart" is CHA. There is design space there to be played with.
1 square =1 yard = 1 meter. "Fits all playstyles" the obvious choice Orzel is the mayor of Ranger-town. Favored enemies for Rangers
58033128 wrote:
Seems like community isn't going to give up calling mapless "Theatre of the Mind".  In the interest of equal pretentiousness, I'd like to start a motion to refer to map combat as "Tableau Vivant".  


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium


Some people have IT. You may have seen it at your office, on the football field, at your church, or in any crucible where leaders must emerge for groups to work effectively together. CHA should represent that IT more thoroughly.

Few Things Benefit A Party More Than Effective Leadership- Did you ever work on a group project where no one was able to provide inspiration, creativity, or direction? Being motivated, focused, and confident in your unit delivers better results, period. CHA should be the static delivery system that tangibly represents that, no roll required. An example would be: The entire party receives an initiative bonus equal to the highest CHA modifier in the party. Why? Because that person's charisma has the party loose and relaxed, or pumped up and ready to rock. The charismatic person gets the most out of the people around them, so how could that NOT include the party, whose buttons they know how to push best.

Interacting with NPC's- D&D handles CHA most effectively via direct communication with NPCs: Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate.

Leading by example- Not every leader is a "rah-rah" guy. DMs need to take that into account that for many people actions speak louder than words, rather than lean 100% on RP. Make some Passive Inspiration CHA rolls to show how someone with exceptional charisma can affect people by showing and not telling. This helps players who are not gregarious effectively play high CHA characters, and it is the way the world works.

Willpower- Ignoring pain and fear goes beyond physical constitution, you need inner strength and determination. Why does Rocky keep getting up? CON alone did not drive Rudy or Samwise when the chips were down (thanks Sean Astin) "Heart" is CHA. There is design space there to be played with.

While I agree with everything you've stated, I would like to see some of the inspirational benefits you used as examples reserved for the Bard class; especially the initiative bonus mentioned.

At least make the Bard's contribution better than anything received simply from from having a party member with a high Charisma score.


Some people have IT. You may have seen it at your office, on the football field, at your church, or in any crucible where leaders must emerge for groups to work effectively together. CHA should represent that IT more thoroughly.

Few Things Benefit A Party More Than Effective Leadership- Did you ever work on a group project where no one was able to provide inspiration, creativity, or direction? Being motivated, focused, and confident in your unit delivers better results, period. CHA should be the static delivery system that tangibly represents that, no roll required. An example would be: The entire party receives an initiative bonus equal to the highest CHA modifier in the party. Why? Because that person's charisma has the party loose and relaxed, or pumped up and ready to rock. The charismatic person gets the most out of the people around them, so how could that NOT include the party, whose buttons they know how to push best.

Interacting with NPC's- D&D handles CHA most effectively via direct communication with NPCs: Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate.

Leading by example- Not every leader is a "rah-rah" guy. DMs need to take that into account that for many people actions speak louder than words, rather than lean 100% on RP. Make some Passive Inspiration CHA rolls to show how someone with exceptional charisma can affect people by showing and not telling. This helps players who are not gregarious effectively play high CHA characters, and it is the way the world works.

Willpower- Ignoring pain and fear goes beyond physical constitution, you need inner strength and determination. Why does Rocky keep getting up? CON alone did not drive Rudy or Samwise when the chips were down (thanks Sean Astin) "Heart" is CHA. There is design space there to be played with.

While I agree with everything you've stated, I would like to see some of the inspirational benefits you used as examples reserved for the Bard class; especially the initiative bonus mentioned.

At least make the Bard's contribution better than anything received simply from from having a party member with a high Charisma score.




Agreed. The bard should be brilliant in this arena, and have its own cake it's bringing to the party.


So, outside of skills:
STR adds to your Melee attack and damage
DEX has AC and ranged attacks
CON has Hit Points

These have always been clear cut static improvements.

Ask yourself, why shouldn't CHA help improve the party in a similar (static) way? Obviously I feel similarly about INT and WIS... They need mechanical space beyond skills.

1 square =1 yard = 1 meter. "Fits all playstyles" the obvious choice Orzel is the mayor of Ranger-town. Favored enemies for Rangers
58033128 wrote:
Seems like community isn't going to give up calling mapless "Theatre of the Mind".  In the interest of equal pretentiousness, I'd like to start a motion to refer to map combat as "Tableau Vivant".  


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

I agree in general, but a lot of the saving throws or opposed checks (as well as plenty of skill checks) that you'd like to see made as cha rather than wis are going to be more or less decoupled from specific stats, and instead they'd be GM's discretion.

While I'm sure the mindset will remain fixed for a lot of players and GM's that spot and Will saves, and survival and so on are always coupled to Wis, but mechanically at least, it's not anymore.

In my mind, those saves, and a whole lot of skill tasks should vary more on situation, and whether or not a player can make a convincing pitch about how they want to approach it.

In games that I ran, I also used Cha to represent "luck". If there was something that was purely up to chance, I'd throw Cha bonus on it. That's doubly true if an NPC is targeting players with some or other attack indiscriminately. High Cha characters get it last and lightest.

The other thing I did (and this really can't be mechanically represented without a lot of unnecessary rolling) was have NPC's simply be nicer, more helpful, and all around react better to those with high charisma. You're generally supposed to anyway, but a lot of GM's just let that slip through the cracks.
PS. I also make high Cha characters more effective at both assisting other characters in "unskilled" tasks, where specific knowledge isn't required, and I give them better bonuses to tasks when other players are assisting them.

Lastly, any kind of large scale cooperative effort going on gets done more quickly if one or more high Cha characters are present.
At the end of the day, if youre a good roleplayer and you can role play out a situation your DM is not going to punish you for having a poor CHA.


Depends heavily on the DM. The argument seems to be "charisma is useless because people don't use the rules for charisma". I would propose that this would be solved by having people use the rules for charisma...
At the end of the day, if youre a good roleplayer and you can role play out a situation your DM is not going to punish you for having a poor CHA.


Depends heavily on the DM. The argument seems to be "charisma is useless because people don't use the rules for charisma". I would propose that this would be solved by having people use the rules for charisma...


This. CHA is a massive dump stat because many players don't perceive static tangible value, and many DMs underutilize it in game. I don't think skills and saves will sucifice to raise CHA's profile, because they are ethereal during character creation.
1 square =1 yard = 1 meter. "Fits all playstyles" the obvious choice Orzel is the mayor of Ranger-town. Favored enemies for Rangers
58033128 wrote:
Seems like community isn't going to give up calling mapless "Theatre of the Mind".  In the interest of equal pretentiousness, I'd like to start a motion to refer to map combat as "Tableau Vivant".  


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

May I suggest henchmen?, I was leafing through some AD&D books I found, and when I got to the Charisma page it mentioned how your charisma affects your ability to get people to like you and to do what you want. I would say that the section would need to be tweaked to be put into D&DNext but it is still better than starting over.
I'm a big fan of henchmen and followers. Particularly since they'll remain combat useful much longer than in 3.X.

If I remember correctly though, they required individual feats to gain access. I could be wrong though; it's been a long time.

I think the Warlord may have some specific options regarding followers, as well as the bard, if it ends up being a proper class.
Willpower definitely seems like a Charisma-based attribute now.  I am not sure why Hold Person or Charm requires a Wisdom check.

That said, I'd like to see more things give you an option on what save to roll.  Hold Person should be breakable via Willpower, but it seems quite arguable that you should be able to break it by brute force with Strength.  A lot of saves seem like this to me.
The problem with Cha, to me, is that I see the reason for it to be a separate stat, but I don't really like many of the solutions proposed for it. I do like giving Cha Willpower, but to me, henchmen have always seemed like more of an RP thing than a stat-based thing. At least, whenever I've used them in any way simulating how they were used in the past, it's usually something where, in preparation for a big battle, the king, or Duke, or whoever gives the Party one or two of his best guards, to join them, or maybe some recurring mercenary NPC I made would decide to lend his skills to the group, free of charge, in order to take out the Big Bad.

How about some sort of Morale system, which would affect stuff like intimidation or Fear effects. You could essentially have the Morale be something like Cha score, and increase by HD roll+Cha Modifier (minimum 1) each level, making it almost the "mental Con." Cha then could also give two things, which can modify this number, within a fight. Inspiring, and Intimidating. With Intimidation, it could be a Cha vs Cha check, and on a success, you deal some amount of Morale damage. With Inspiration you make a Cha check, something like DC 10-12, but if the person was dealt HP or Morale damage, the check has disadvantage. On a success that heals some morale Losing Morale would be usually less dangerous than HP damage, but it would still be a stiff penalty. When Morale hits 0, the character is shaken, which would mean a penalty to checks, and at a Morale value equal to the negative of 10+Cha Modifier, the character flees from battle.

I actually don't particularly like this solution, but it's basically the best I can think of given the circumstances, and it seems to fit with the concept of Cha includes Willpower.

I am currently raising funds to run for President in 2016. Too many administrations have overlooked the international menace, that is Carmen Sandiego. I shall devote any and all necessary military resources to bring her to justice.

I actually don't particularly like this solution, but it's basically the best I can think of given the circumstances, and it seems to fit with the concept of Cha includes Willpower.



I'd favor just using something like a Condition Track from Star Wars SAGA to handle morale and other generic status effects that impede function in a general way.
While I am not sure of what the mechanic or result should be, I agree that CHA should have a bigger impact and that all attributes should be tied to a mechanic within the game. Taking a lower score in any attribute should be, to my way of thinking, a significant choice of pros in one attribute versus cons in another attribute. Nothing should be a "dump stat" for that reason; it is a choice to be better at something else and less-good at what this attribute provides.

I agree with those that say that many existing effects should be changed to "save" or affect CHA versus Wisdom.

If we just go from the starting ideas of each attribute, I'm sure the game designers can think of some mechanical way to represent those effects.

I'd define them this way (with actual or perceived mechanical effect included):


  • STR - raw power => Attack, Damage, Lifting bonuses

  • DEX - agility, coordination => Ranged attack, possible Defense, acrobatic and agility-based skills bonuses 

  • CON - endurance, vitality => Hit points (hit dice?), withstand poison, drunkenness, weather, etc. bonuses

  • INT - learning, reasoning, logic => arcane spell power, knowledge bonsuses

  • WIS - intuition, perception, judgment => divine spell power, perception, sense motive bonuses

  • CHA - strength of character, comliness, willpower => defense versus influence, influencing others, interaction bonuses


My two cents worth.
Balance = Equally effective, but different, ways of reaching a goal or overcoming an obstacle.
Problem is CHA already did all these. And if the player is not the "group leader" or "spokesmen" the non rpers or people that dont give two craps about interacting with anything pass a swordpoint are still going to dump it. We had few players that would have chars with the dump stat and get upset that they couldnt get the tavern wenches to warm their bed, but otherwise they didnt care if they were fugly and bad manners when they had 18 str and 18 con to own combat. Its hard to give cha a combat bonus/hinderence however. It must be big enough to not make it a dump stat, yet modest enough so everyone just doesnt throw all they got in cha hehe.

I do like that changing some saves to CHA however, a while back, when 3rd was new, me and my friend talked about how easy it was to "beat" the saving throws (speically when two of them saves were the most highest desired stat for almost any class) and that they should have sorted the saves into six catagories (One for each stat), we dabbled with the idea for a while but got lazy and never finished it lol.
Seems like a good point to throw this around again:
 CharismaYour strength of personality and influence, compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.  This can represent a divinely conferred power, talent or duty.


  • Exploration: Used to affect morale when enduring hardships. (Ex: Positive or Negative reinforcement )



  • Combat: Used for spells and actions that rely on your strength of personality or divine favor. (Ex: Convincing a weakened enemy to surrender)



  • Social:  Affects how you carry yourself, the general impression you present, and the ability to interact with others.  (Ex:Attempting to inspire or incite a person or crowd)



  • Defense: Protects you from attempts to manipulate you such as through fear or unnatural compulsion.



Please collect and update the DND Next Community Wiki Page with your ideas and suggestions!
Take a look at my clarified ability scores And also my Houserules relevent to DNDNext
I don't know if this is going to just happen to Cha. 

If each ability has it's own saving throws, as stated but not truly represented in playtest, then there will be those gotchya spells that target Cha save.  Having to pass on the Mind Flayer adventure because the fighter can't make a Cha save to being Dominated.

So now Int, Wis and Cha all need some padding.  I thought 4e's two abilities per each save was a step forward.  Individual ability score saving throws will be cool, but I don't see it as two steps back.

Without Int tied to skills, isn't Int a huge dump stat for most classes?

If Will saves get spread out among four other abilities (Dex covered Reflex and Con covered Fortitude), then isn't Wis value diminished.  I mean, somone in the party is going to spot the enemy for you right?



Thinking about Int relation to skill subsystems of past editions, what has Cha been related to.  I mean core, not the Leadership feat.

Where does Cha modifier appear in the core mechanics of various editions?
If charisma is used for most mental defense (at least attacks on your personality and such), I don't see how this remains a weak stat.  If anything, it's one of the more important stats given its high use for all social situations.  Wisdom similarly remains very useful.

Intelligence, Constitution, and Strength would be the weakest, I think, but part of this is because Dex is probably too good.  Well, intelligence definitely needs some significant boost.  Constitution...I'd like to see it add to any healing you receive (better than it's current use on hit dice rolls, which might well be ignored or made irrelevent with house/optional rules).
This is my semi perfect world concept.

Str = Damage, Encumberance, Feats of Strength
Dex = 1/2 Mod bonus to AC, 'reflex' checks,
Con = HP, 'fort' checks, basis of how long you can 'go negative' before death or bonus to avoiding death by bleeding out.
Int = Knowledge checks, Initiative (With it rather than being how fast on the draw you are but how well you can adapt and plan quickly)
Wis = Perception checks,  1/2 Mod bonus to AC
Cha = 'will' checks, rather than hirelings maximum a bonus to leading groups. perhaps you can designate a 'leader' at the beginning of a battle as an optional rule to either serve as initiative roll for the group or offer a very minor bonus (d3 temp hp, opponent's -1 to hit with either melee or ranged, +1 to 'skill' checks during battle, etc.)


I see Strength as strictly carrying capacity. Then Dexterity (agility) and Constitution (endurance) are how the hero uses this capacity.

In other words, Dex makes a quick explosive attack or Con makes a tireless attack without exhausting, but Str allows the hero to do this with a large heavy weapon and in heavy armor.



Likewise Intelligence is strictly carrying capacity: recall memory - large amounts of knowledge. Then Wisdom (mental agility) and Charisma (mental endurance) are how the hero uses this capacity.
I would disagree that charisma is willpower, per se. I've met unlikeable people who were very determined, and likeable people who were very undetermined. Perhaps charisma could affect your party members' willpower? It should certainly affect henchmen. You can always hire henchmen regardless of charisma, but it certainly affects how much money they'll ask for or how willing they are to betray you. Being adept at persuasion, deception, and bartering are also quite important, and it always comes into play in my games. For those who say it's a dump stat and that physical prowess rules the game, bear in mind that no matter how tough someone is, there is always someone tougher...

Personally I've just boiled INT and WIS into one stat. They are both functions of the mind, and it seems like splitting hairs to make them two stats since they basically do the same thing. How wise a character is really depends more on how the player role-plays. You can't tell me that a chaotic stupid cleric with 18 wisdom can be considered wise...

And while on the subject, drop alignment entirely. It does nothing for roleplaying, since a person's morality is seldom based on a rigid ideology. Moral ambiguity is more fun.
Charisma can mean things beside “likable”. It can also mean “scary”, “disturbing”, “uncanny”, “mysterious”, “prestigious”.

People that *seem* “competent” have high Charisma. It is part of their personal drive - self-identity, decisive goals, and so on.
Charisma can mean things beside “likable”. It can also mean “scary”, “disturbing”, “uncanny”, “mysterious”, “prestigious”.

People that *seem* “competent” have high Charisma. It is part of their personal drive - self-identity, decisive goals, and so on.



Ahh, so by charisma we mean force of presence? I can see that. Still though, just because someone has a strong force of presence doesn't necessarily mean people will react positively to them or do what they say. I've known extremely strong willed/strong presence type people who others simply avoid. Would they be considered charismatic? Probably not.
Wisdom for me is mental discipline.. just like stamina or con.. it would relate to sanity.
Charisma includes spirit

Will power = a combination of spirit and discipline.

People who are influenced purely by charisma in short term only and not a broader set of elements  

 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

The thing is, reallife Charismatic people have certain qualities, including a strong sense of self (even if they are highly insecure they still are strongly self-willed, Lady Diana is good example of this, probably Marylin Monroe too). Also Charismatic people have extreme empathy, and simply “know” intuitively whether people are responding positively or negatively.

Thus it seems, “mental discipline” in the sense of strong sense of self, strong self-identity, enduring meaningfulness, decisive personal goals, and the ablity to encourage others to pursue these goals, are all aspects of Charisma. There is a nexus between strong force of presence and willpower.

Charisma relates to “mental endurance”.

By contrast, Wisdom is “mental agility”. Quick thinking, accurate perception, attending precisely, and adjudicating competently.
Oh, Wisdom can be just "all forms of perception".Yeah Wisdom can mean other things, but whatever. "Mental agility" is Intelligence, please stop acting like it was just memory and academic knowledge. It disallows the existence of a character that`s air-headed (low wis), but smart (or high IQ if you believe IQ) without being a bookworm. Just smart, as in, comes up with solutions to problems, and ponders things with a bit of accuracy. If you think that`s unrealistic, I just described someone I know. 

Charisma is "strenght of character", and that has nothing to do with discipline: Please allow me to play a charismatic procastinator, or a charismatic guy that often falls on indulgence or gets bored too easily, thank you.

I didn`t really read about most of the thread`s suggestions, but Charisma should at least work on willpower saves, letting deception saves for Wisdom.

EDIT: and yeah more power to CHA, but please give me something else to do with INT. Just "Lore dude" or "Wizard" (or anything class-dependent) is not enough.
My character is called Ryotto Tyrannicide, wich comes from "tyrannicidal riot". He wields two magic swords: King Beheader (as in "Beheader of Kings", not "King the Beheader") and Chain Splitter. He's also a bit of a skirt-chaser. So yeah, I REALLY hope you have some Lawful Evil bad guys prepared for me. Government/trade/church conspiracies are optional, but highly recommended.
“Coming up with solutions to problems” is exactly Wisdom.

Wisdom is “mental agility” - quick-thinking, shrewdness, cunning.

Wisdom is more than passive “perception” of details, it is also the active ability to interract with the surroundings in a detail-oriented way, such as to draw a picture that looks life-like. It isnt Dexterity, its the Wisdom mastering the *application* of the theories and techniques of art.

I agree Wisdom handles deception/hiding saves. But Wisdom is also responsible for creating plausible lies on the fly, and creating convincing art, disguises, and forgeries.



Intelligence really is just memory: “lore”. It doesnt need to be formally academic knowledge. Intelligent heroes can be self-taught mastering Natural Lore, and so on.

Someone can know a lot of information (high Int) but not be especially quick-thinking (low Wis), nor even all that insightful (connect the dots).



Charisma can be disciplined, but not necessarily in a regimented way. The artist with a high Charisma is “disciplined” in the sense of extreme dedication to art as a part of self-identity, and this may have nothing to do with structuring time methodically. Art often happens during intense peaks of inspiration. Procrastinators are fine. Bill Clinton is probably an example of high Charisma but “creatively loose” organization and procrastination. Tho to become president he must have some kind of regimen (because of Hillary?).
Wisdom making the right choices and the ability to stick to it.. inspite of it being hard... ie discipline.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Wisdom paying attention over long periods. (hence aids perception)

Charisma I give creative intelligence to as well so improvisational activities.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Think most get the idea what Charisma is. Trick is making it so its as important as the other stats in groups that dont RP or players that dont give a crap about "leadership" roles
“Coming up with solutions to problems” is exactly Wisdom.

Wisdom is “mental agility” - quick-thinking, shrewdness, cunning.

Wisdom is more than passive “perception” of details, it is also the active ability to interract with the surroundings in a detail-oriented way, such as to draw a picture that looks life-like. It isnt Dexterity, its the Wisdom mastering the *application* of the theories and techniques of art.

I agree Wisdom handles deception/hiding saves. But Wisdom is also responsible for creating plausible lies on the fly, and creating convincing art, disguises, and forgeries.



Intelligence really is just memory: “lore”. It doesnt need to be formally academic knowledge. Intelligent heroes can be self-taught mastering Natural Lore, and so on.

Someone can know a lot of information (high Int) but not be especially quick-thinking (low Wis), nor even all that insightful (connect the dots).



Charisma can be disciplined, but not necessarily in a regimented way. The artist with a high Charisma is “disciplined” in the sense of extreme dedication to art as a part of self-identity, and this may have nothing to do with structuring time methodically. Art often happens during intense peaks of inspiration. Procrastinators are fine. Bill Clinton is probably an example of high Charisma but “creatively loose” organization and procrastination. Tho to become president he must have some kind of regimen (because of Hillary?).



Perception is not problem solving. You can`t describe an air-headed problem solver with that, and there are many out there. INT has always also been described as the ability to learn, wich requires complex reasoning, and has also been explicitly described as the ability to use complex logic. You can do that being an air-head.

My character is called Ryotto Tyrannicide, wich comes from "tyrannicidal riot". He wields two magic swords: King Beheader (as in "Beheader of Kings", not "King the Beheader") and Chain Splitter. He's also a bit of a skirt-chaser. So yeah, I REALLY hope you have some Lawful Evil bad guys prepared for me. Government/trade/church conspiracies are optional, but highly recommended.
Wisdom making the right choices and the ability to stick to it.. inspite of it being hard... ie discipline.

These are two unrelated qualities:

• “make the right choices” = mental agility = Wisdom

• “stick to it” = mental endurance = Charisma
The problems with the traditional definitions of the abilities are, they are useless, inconsistent, unbalanced, conflictive, vague, and unsystematic. Everyone invents their own homebrew interpretations to try make sense of them. These are unacceptable for future editions. The official definitions for the abilities require systematic analysis, to clarify their meanings, to define them in mutually exclusive ways to clarify when to use one and when not to use one, to make the game work better.
The problems with the traditional definitions of the abilities are, they are useless, inconsistent, unbalanced, conflictive, vague, and unsystematic. Everyone invents their own homebrew interpretations to try make sense of them. These are unacceptable for future editions.

This is the main reason I'm in favor of ditching Wisdom as a stat, in favor of Perception.  Perception is solid, measurable, and shouldn't have such a huge impact on how you play the character.

When an ability score governs how a character behaves, you risk people "playing the character wrong", which is not something we should be encouraging.  We just need to make a couple of changes:



  • Intelligence = Math and memory.

  • Wisdom -> Perception = How well you notice stuff.

  • Charisma -> Willpower = resistance to fear/charm/mental-bad-stuff and strength of random magical powers.


The metagame is not the game.

The problems with the traditional definitions of the abilities are, they are useless, inconsistent, unbalanced, conflictive, vague, and unsystematic. Everyone invents their own homebrew interpretations to try make sense of them. These are unacceptable for future editions.

This is the main reason I'm in favor of ditching Wisdom as a stat, in favor of Perception.  Perception is solid, measurable, and shouldn't have such a huge impact on how you play the character.

When an ability score governs how a character behaves, you risk people "playing the character wrong", which is not something we should be encouraging.  We just need to make a couple of changes:



  • Intelligence = Math and memory.

  • Wisdom -> Perception = How well you notice stuff.

  • Charisma -> Willpower = resistance to fear/charm/mental-bad-stuff and strength of random magical powers.





Is memory really intelligence? What about the forgetful genius archetype? Ha ha, sorry for throwing a wrench in there. I couldn't resist.
Wisdom making the right choices and the ability to stick to it.. inspite of it being hard... ie discipline.

These are two unrelated qualities:

• “make the right choices” = mental agility = Wisdom

• “stick to it” = mental endurance = Charisma



Nah charismatics often seem to lack self control  spirit is wild mental energy its rebellious but it lacks persistance... ie the endurance that comes of discipline 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Is memory really intelligence? What about the forgetful genius archetype? Ha ha, sorry for throwing a wrench in there. I couldn't resist.

Yeah, I get what you're saying.  There's also a fairly strong argument for "your character only remembers what you remember," but that's going to bug people the same way "no social skills, and just role-play it" would bother them.

Intelligence is more like RAM, sometimes, and less like hard drive space.  It's how many different things you can keep track of in your head at once, like all of the variables in a wizard spell.  I could even see an argument for Wisdom (or Perception!) to govern how well you remember things that you've seen a long time ago.  On the other hand, recalling an arcane spell formula has also been likened to reciting computer code backwards from memory, so that's one reason to stick memory in with Int.. and forgetful wizards just don't make sense in that setting.

For some reason, memory checks have always fallen to Int around here, though.  It really speaks to the need for a consistent definition somewhere, though.

The metagame is not the game.

Is memory really intelligence? What about the forgetful genius archetype? Ha ha, sorry for throwing a wrench in there. I couldn't resist.

Yeah, I get what you're saying.  There's also a fairly strong argument for "your character only remembers what you remember," but that's going to bug people the same way "no social skills, and just role-play it" would bother them.

Intelligence is more like RAM, sometimes, and less like hard drive space.  It's how many different things you can keep track of in your head at once, like all of the variables in a wizard spell.  I could even see an argument for Wisdom (or Perception!) to govern how well you remember things that you've seen a long time ago.  On the other hand, recalling an arcane spell formula has also been likened to reciting computer code backwards from memory, so that's one reason to stick memory in with Int.. and forgetful wizards just don't make sense in that setting.

For some reason, memory checks have always fallen to Int around here, though.  It really speaks to the need for a consistent definition somewhere, though.




Well, INT has often been canonically described as your ability to use logic, remember and learn, so you can say that you know more stuff (practical or lore) because you`re good at understanding, absorbing and applying knowledge, without necessarily memorizing much in the strict sense. So it`s also your actual processor-power and software capability too, not just RAM and HD, thought those are included. It also means you can connect the dots better, while Wisdom is about getting the dots themselves. I`ve seen lots of parts on various official books saying that high INT NPC`s are better at tactics (including improvisation), or that a smart-ass NPC that cracks on-spot jokes often is usually high INT, and stuff like that.

And one canonically possible interpretation for Wizard spells is that they cast 95% of the spell while reading the spellbook, then pause it, memorizing only the finishing triggers wich they use to actually cast. So prepared spells are actually half-cast spells, not just memorized (thought memory is still important), or they wouldn`t disappear form your mind later, though one can argue that they are half-cast in your mind so they take up memory.... but see, what I`m trying to say is that it`s subject to quite a bit of not-so-stretching refluff.

EDIT: I think INT is mostly like CHA when it still also meant physical appearance: You could say your high CHA came from your looks, your bold personality, your easy-going-ness with people, or most likely, all of those combined.

My character is called Ryotto Tyrannicide, wich comes from "tyrannicidal riot". He wields two magic swords: King Beheader (as in "Beheader of Kings", not "King the Beheader") and Chain Splitter. He's also a bit of a skirt-chaser. So yeah, I REALLY hope you have some Lawful Evil bad guys prepared for me. Government/trade/church conspiracies are optional, but highly recommended.

The quick are before you blink,


The sly win the tie,


The wise are wary, everything's scary,


And the courageous will never back down.



All adventurers expect a fight.


So when rolling for your character's initiative:



-You can roll or take your Wisdom score as your initiative count.


-Your Dexterity modifier is applied as a bonus to your rolls.


-You can roll as many times equal to your Charisma modifier, but each result replaces the previous and the last roll is final.


-Intelligence scores break ties first, then Wisdom, then Dexterity, and finally Charisma.


-Perfect ties are a Surprise!

http://collectingrealities.blogspot.co.nz/