What is the best leader....

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bearing in mind no one will be playing a defender of a controller most likly
also if possible write what leader you use (stats so on) im kinda new to this.
1. Work on your spelling.
2. There's an edit button.
3. How many strikers and how many (or few) leaders are we talking here?
1. Work on your spelling.
2. There's an edit button.
3. How many strikers and how many (or few) leaders are we talking here?

1: spelling doesnt matter as long as you understand
2: 4 strikers and me :/ im trying to get one to play controller 
Warlords.

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
1. Work on your spelling.
2. There's an edit button.
3. How many strikers and how many (or few) leaders are we talking here?

1: spelling doesnt matter as long as you understand
2: 4 strikers and me :/ im trying to get one to play controller 


Warlord would probably be best seconded by the Bard, i would think, followed by the Cleric and Runepriest.
You could check out this thread for some ideas.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Then check out the individual Leader handbooks for expanded advice/guidance with each class.
What strikers are they? 4 cha rouges would not like a warlord as their MBAs wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
What strikers are they? 4 cha rouges would not like a warlord as their MBAs wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

There i one rough but in game we have decided that we dont like each other from a backgrond incedent so that wont matter much the rest are generic human fighter elven ranger
If your friends are sold on playing strikers you could also suggest classes that are good at their main role while also filling in as a psuedo striker.
Great Weapon Fighter(Weapon Master)=Primary Defender and secondary striker.
Blaster Wizard=Primary Controler and secondary striker. 
Also guys if you click on my profile you will see my skald please give me some suggestions on how to improve him or if he is just **** please say.
What strikers are they? 4 cha rouges would not like a warlord as their MBAs wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn.


Could be fixed with melee training. Especially if they are going to get extra free attacks w/bennies.
It is easily fixed but there is a level gap where the warlord = worthless. The dm would probably sort this however.
What level gap is that, pray tell? A properly built Warlord is good throughout, and becomes amazing with allies that can play ball.
1. A fighter is not a striker, but a defender.


2. Unless the warlord is going to be unconscious for a few levels, I cannot think of a gap in which he would be anything less than highly effective.



3. In the event that they fail to alpha-strike every credible threat every fight, I think a party with this much offensive power might benefit from a more defensively minded leader. Particularly since you said that you are just starting out, you might get into less trouble with a ranged cleric, who can still speed up fights by creating vulnerabilities, using debuffs, and choosing quasi-enabling powers such as Cause Fear and Deadly Lure, while adding some damage of his own.      
1. A fighter is not a striker, but a defender.


2. Unless the warlord is going to be unconscious for a few levels, I cannot think of a gap in which he would be anything less than highly effective.



3. In the event that they fail to alpha-strike every credible threat every fight, I think a party with this much offensive power might benefit from a more defensively minded leader. Particularly since you said that you are just starting out, you might get into less trouble with a ranged cleric, who can still speed up fights by creating vulnerabilities, using debuffs, and choosing quasi-enabling powers such as Cause Fear and Deadly Lure, while adding some damage of his own.      

A fighter can be a really good striker as long as they don't neglect their defender role.
Perhaps more to the point, a Fighter can ba reall good striker, when they're a Slayer.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Perhaps more to the point, a Fighter can ba reall good striker, when they're a Slayer.

I'm trying to help this OP build their PC for an upcoming Dark Sun campaign and i think they are all completely new to 4e so don't quite get the roles and such.

Slayer is great but perhaps a Strikefender such as the Berserker might wourk better. 
Berzerkers are not defenders. At all. They're just a barbarian with different class features. You're leading the OP astray ezrider
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Berzerkers are not defenders. At all. They're just a barbarian with different class features. You're leading the OP astray ezrider


I'd say you're the one leading astray.  Berserkers are capable for what they do, part of which is defending in not too horrible a fashion.  They're no fighter, to be sure, but "not defenders at all" is a bit of a stretch.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Berzerkers are not defenders. At all. They're just a barbarian with different class features. You're leading the OP astray ezrider


I'd say you're the one leading astray.  Berserkers are capable for what they do, part of which is defending in not too horrible a fashion.  They're no fighter, to be sure, but "not defenders at all" is a bit of a stretch.



You're a defender at the wrong time, and a striker at the wrong time. The best way to effectively play the class is always in striker mode. If you don't, you're gimping yourself at which point it becomes subpar optimization.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
2. Unless the warlord is going to be unconscious for a few levels, I cannot think of a gap in which he would be anything less than highly effective.



I'd like to acknowledge this quote for both delivering the truth and bringing a smile to my face in the process.

While I'm here, I'll also agree with zelink in that the Berserker is not much of a Defender - it's more of a Barbarian with a couple of alternate class features and a love for MBAs.
Berzerkers are not defenders. At all. They're just a barbarian with different class features. You're leading the OP astray ezrider


I'd say you're the one leading astray.  Berserkers are capable for what they do, part of which is defending in not too horrible a fashion.  They're no fighter, to be sure, but "not defenders at all" is a bit of a stretch.

You're a defender at the wrong time, and a striker at the wrong time. The best way to effectively play the class is always in striker mode. If you don't, you're gimping yourself at which point it becomes subpar optimization.

Unless you a pixie with steath and hide in enemies squares.  Then the defender's aura is definatly what you want.

But then your still a striker, just one in disguise.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Berzerkers are not defenders. At all. They're just a barbarian with different class features. You're leading the OP astray ezrider


I'd say you're the one leading astray.  Berserkers are capable for what they do, part of which is defending in not too horrible a fashion.  They're no fighter, to be sure, but "not defenders at all" is a bit of a stretch.

You're a defender at the wrong time, and a striker at the wrong time. The best way to effectively play the class is always in striker mode. If you don't, you're gimping yourself at which point it becomes subpar optimization.

Unless you a pixie with steath and hide in enemies squares.  Then the defender's aura is definatly what you want.

But then your still a striker, just one in disguise.



Well, in a good party everyone is a striker in disguise.  Except the striker is disguised as himself.

Warlord is a striker who main hands a party member and offhands a can of STFU and keep fighting.
Artificer is a striker who spreads out his damage and hit evenly amoung the party through buffs.
Cleric is a striker who spreads out his damage via vulnerability and status effects.
Optimus is a striker who strikes your strikes with his strikes until they are struck.

Well, in a good party everyone is a striker in disguise.  Except the striker is disguised as himself.

I suppose, if you take the long view.

Even a 0 damage cleric could be a "i'll give you another round alive to deal more damage" striker.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Koddiechanskian CharOponics:

"In the long run, we are all strikers."
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Berzerkers are not defenders. At all. They're just a barbarian with different class features. You're leading the OP astray ezrider


Since the Berserker has a mechanic for defending they can fill in as as a psuedo defender while being a primary striker. Is it OP? Thats for others to decide. I just brought it up as another option.
As to me leading anyone astray, if that's how you feel that's your opinion. I never once suggested anyone play a Berserker. I am helping the Op build a Bard of some kind. He may not be that great a Bard but the Op requested my help in building one and i had time to do so. So i am.
If his friend is playing a Human Fighter as a striker i would recommend they read LDB's Fighter Handbook while helping them build a great striking fighter. Not tell them to build a Berserker.
With that much firepower in the party, I'd go with either a bard/skald(either one), shaman or artificer.

Partly because they're all really fun, but also because a 4 striker party has a bit more wiggle room for the other kinds of leading, other than direct action enabling. Also, there's room for controller goodies in all three.

I'd probably stick with a ranged leader, though, since you've no defender, and will be relying on the strikers killing anything that tries to take you down.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
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http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Koddiechanskian CharOponics:

"In the long run, we are all strikers."



Darn Skippy!
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