Interesting realization from a 4e fan

I realized today that I don’t really need a bunch of 4e elements in DDN. I am an avid player IRL and in PBP, but I don’t really want an improved 4e or even modules to recreate 4e. I already have 4e for 4e. However, this isn’t to say that I prefer mechanics from 3e and previous. I hate a good deal of them (Hit dice and rolling abilities=bad. Multiclassing=GOOD! If they fix it). I would like a mechanically sound, balanced game, with fighters being able to do kewl stuff, but I don’t even think they need to take a page from 4e’s book for those; they can just do it under the system from the ground up. And that’s really what I want: a system that’s fun, built from the ground up. I don’t need elements from any previous edition as long as I get a class-based mid-fantasy game that doesn’t hinder RP or storytelling. I want it to be a good game, and I don’t care how they reach it, is what I’m saying. You can have that “old D&D feel” without replicating the mechanics.


 


A more clear explanation: The game does not need to have elements of my favorite edition for me to like it, it just needs to mimic the playstyle, which has always been going through dungeons and slaying dragons at its core (obviously more than that, but you get the idea). Also, to get the feel of past editions, you don’t have to mimic their mechanics.


 


Basically, just create a good game with the same feel, not a slightly changed version of what came before.

holydoom.weebly.com: Holydoom! A lighthearted RPG in progress. Loosely based on 3.5. 4, and GURPS. Very, Very, Very loosely. Seriously, visit it now. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29086701/I_HIT_IT_WITH_MA_SWORD!_(like_this!):_A_Slayers_Handbook An attempt at CharOp
To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
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Oblivious troll is Oblivious
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Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
This is a good post.  I think they can at least in theory make you happy.  It's why I've said if I had an edition I thought was perfect I'd be done with all others including future ones.    
It's actualy why I'm so optimistic. I know that modules won't satisfy my need for 4e,  but they can satisfy my need for a cool new rule or playstyle. Seriously, the Eberon airship battleing module will be epic.
holydoom.weebly.com: Holydoom! A lighthearted RPG in progress. Loosely based on 3.5. 4, and GURPS. Very, Very, Very loosely. Seriously, visit it now. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29086701/I_HIT_IT_WITH_MA_SWORD!_(like_this!):_A_Slayers_Handbook An attempt at CharOp
To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
"see sig" redirects here
Oblivious troll is Oblivious
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General thoughts, feelings, and info on DDN!
Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
I can appreciate this notion. I'd like to expand on where I think you're going. I want to see 5e branch out and try some experiments. It doesn't need to be exactly like any of the previous editions... as long as the development of the game is based on what has been learned about the player base.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
Wow...Zelkon, your attitude is incredibly healthy and constructive.   We should all think like this.   If 5e can make combats faster, give us more time to incorporate more exploration, interaction/roleplaying and combat, give us interesting choices, allow use to play strategically, allow us to develop dynamic and fluid stories in game, make it easy to create encounters and use monsters, satisfy different types of gamers, and feel like D&D - then we'll have a winner.

Cheers. 

A Brave Knight of WTF

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

Wow...Zelkon, your attitude is incredibly healthy and constructive.   We should all think like this.   If 5e can make combats faster, give us more time to incorporate more exploration, interaction/roleplaying and combat, give us interesting choices, allow use to play strategically, allow us to develop dynamic and fluid stories in game, make it easy to create encounters and use monsters, satisfy different types of gamers, and feel like D&D - then we'll have a winner.

Cheers. 


I feel all tingly inside XD.
holydoom.weebly.com: Holydoom! A lighthearted RPG in progress. Loosely based on 3.5. 4, and GURPS. Very, Very, Very loosely. Seriously, visit it now. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29086701/I_HIT_IT_WITH_MA_SWORD!_(like_this!):_A_Slayers_Handbook An attempt at CharOp
To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
"see sig" redirects here
Oblivious troll is Oblivious
PbP supporter!
General thoughts, feelings, and info on DDN!
Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
Of course we all have the edition we know and love!  Why try to imitate 2e when I can always play 2e!  Now...  I think 5e should take a note or two from 4e and offer modules to add the best concepts of 4e into the game as options!  If I don't see the disease tracks, death saves (Edit:  I am content with the death saves from the playtest), and new alternate XP rewards (via quests) available as modules, I will be quite sad.  Also, AoO would be fun if it returns.  (You don't need grids for that mechanic, ya know?  Wrecan's gridless conversion works wonders!  Plus, I've seen AoO in several gridless 3.5 and 4e games and it worked.)

All in all, great post.  I'm happy to see threads like these.  It's worth sifting through vats of negativity and (often baseless) complaints. 

Crazed undead horror posing as a noble and heroic forum poster!

 

 

Some good pointers for the fellow hobbyist!:

  • KEEP D&D ALIVE, END EDITION WARS!
  • RESPECT PEOPLES' PREFERENCES
  • JUST ENJOY THE GAME!
Welcome to the club, Zelkon.  This is how a decent chunk of the 4e fans around here think. 
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.

Basically, just create a good game with the same feel, not a slightly changed version of what came before.





I bet you get exactly what you want.

I agree, as an old school gamer, it is not the mechanics of a particular version that matter, I really loved BECMI but not thaco or silly implientation of levels and attack classes.  It was the playability, the fun and the flavour.  So far from my read through 5e appears to have at it's core a well thought out mechanic that gives a very similar feel to the D&D games that I have played.  Really that is what I want in a D&D next, something that works well on it's own terms and suits my style of play.   There have always been factions in the D&D world and edition wars (I remember old white box types who thought AD&D was the  devil and there was always a split between BECMI and AD&D crowd)   I don't think 5e will escape that, but I am hoping they provide us with something that is fun and playable and ranks up there as a fondly remembered system.
Amen

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

I definitely don't want a clone of any edition. I just want something that feels new, fresh, and fits my playstyle. Nothing about it has felt new or fresh, nor have any of the ideas being thrown around on any of the various Q&A's, interviews, etc. All I ask is that the D&D they offer me be an upgrade from the D&D I have now. 
Build on what works.

Basically, just create a good game with the same feel, not a slightly changed version of what came before.





I bet you get exactly what you want.



I'm going to have to disagree, especially about core and the promised modules in the core book. Right now we have all six ability scores on a 3-18 scale, attack rolls very similar to all editions, just without scaling, saving throws, Vancian but with at will, fighters somewhere between 2e and 3e (especially with the upcoming manuvers) feats delivered by theme and backgrounds that deliver skills that act something like non weapon prof (quadruple whammy), sneak attack does thea exact same thing, iconic spells, channel divinity, the worst side of hit dice and healing surges, initiative with a d20, rolled hit points (supposedly), rogues are not only skill monkeys, they can use skills no one else can (prof with thieves tools). The list goes on. Even advantage is hardly new, it's just a slightly better way of of doing it. Not saying that being just like older editions thrown in the same bag, but sometimes it hinders how good a game can be, as it attempts to mimic the mechanics to get the feel. I'm optimistic becauseplay have a play test, not because it's good already. I'm optimistic because, at rare moments when we get along, we discover something brilliant. I'm optimistic about modules, and how they will make each game unique, but still on the same foundation. What I don't see is that foundation, or even the first modules they have promised, giving a unique feel ; being something other than throwing the core books in the blender and seeing if it will blend.
holydoom.weebly.com: Holydoom! A lighthearted RPG in progress. Loosely based on 3.5. 4, and GURPS. Very, Very, Very loosely. Seriously, visit it now. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29086701/I_HIT_IT_WITH_MA_SWORD!_(like_this!):_A_Slayers_Handbook An attempt at CharOp
To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
"see sig" redirects here
Oblivious troll is Oblivious
PbP supporter!
General thoughts, feelings, and info on DDN!
Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
I agree Zelkon.  

I too am fan of 4E and excited by D&D Next whole playtesting experience. For the first time in D&D history, we're given not only the opportunity to see the game shaping up, but the opportunity to playtest it first hand, give feedbacks and see it evolve. This for the entire fandom to participate and enjoy, and not just a small group of internal playtesters close to the Design and Development Team.. This is a great opportunity and really exciting discussions sparks every day. The boards currently live and breath D&D Next.

R&D have stated their design goals many times and want all our playstyles integrated in Next. They are not working on 4.5 or 3E redux. Or AD&D retro-clone. They are working on a new iteration of D&D that for the first time will offer enought modularity to express multiple playstyles depending on what options one takes in or out. It already have a few things directly inspired by 4E... and more 4E ingeniosity inspired goodness will be revealed as time pass by i am sure.  

I am eagerly waiting the next packet with lots of excitement!




EDITED  

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I agree Zelkon.  

I too am fan of 4E and excited by D&D Next whole playtesting experience. For the first time in D&D history, we're given not only the opportunity to see the game shaping up, but the opportunity to playtest it first hand, give feedbacks and see it evolve. This for the entire fandom to participate and enjoy, and not just a small group of internal playtesters close to the Design and Development Team.. This is a great opportunity and really exciting discussions sparks every day. The boards currently live and breath D&D Next.

R&D have stated their design goals many times and want all our playstyles integrated in Next. They are not working on 4.5 or 3E redux. Or AD&D retro-clone. They are working on a new iteration of D&D that for the first time will offer enought modularity to express multiple playstyles depending on what options one takes in or out. It already have a few things directly inspired by 4E... and more 4E ingeniosity inspired godness will be revealed as time pass by i am sure.  

I am eagerly waiting the next packet with lots of excitement!



Bolded for lolz.
Anyway, you do not seem to get what I'm saying. I don't think this does look like a retroclone, or a redux. It is very much a new iteration. It's, at least so far, just a mixed bag of what has come before, which sets it appart from all editions but does not make it unique. I am not saying "y u no have 4e stuffs?" I'm saying that I don't care if we have stuff from 4th ed, or any edition really. There has yet to be an edition which hindered going through dungeons and slaying dragons, and each one has been uniquely different (I'm counting 1e and 2e as just ADND, although with 2e campaign settings, the field shifted from dungeons to worlds). DDN has, in trying to capture the spirit of D&D, forgotten what made it great. It has, I think, lost its ingenuity and instead thinks that the feel comes from mechanics being a cirtain way (and not in the sense of attack rolls, but in the sense of things like +1 sword must add +1 to damage and attack rolls, and that ability scores need to be 3-18). There is literally not a thing in core which is not from another edition, which would be fine if it actualy worked, but I don't feel it.
holydoom.weebly.com: Holydoom! A lighthearted RPG in progress. Loosely based on 3.5. 4, and GURPS. Very, Very, Very loosely. Seriously, visit it now. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29086701/I_HIT_IT_WITH_MA_SWORD!_(like_this!):_A_Slayers_Handbook An attempt at CharOp
To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
"see sig" redirects here
Oblivious troll is Oblivious
PbP supporter!
General thoughts, feelings, and info on DDN!
Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
I like a lot of what 4E did with the game mechanics, but its easy to see that it has its own set of flaws. I most certainly hope they keep a lot of the flavor and story elements 4E introduced (I like my Dragonborn).  I just hope DDN fcilitates a wider array of stories and tones rather than being "dungeon crawl the game"
[Quote author=56865008 post=521151203]I like a lot of what 4E did with the game mechanics, but its easy to see that it has its own set of flaws. I most certainly hope they keep a lot of the flavor and story elements 4E introduced (I like my Dragonborn).



Dragonborn might have been interesting, but those phallic noses...

Bolded for lolz.
Anyway, you do not seem to get what I'm saying. I don't think this does look like a retroclone, or a redux. It is very much a new iteration. It's, at least so far, just a mixed bag of what has come before, which sets it appart from all editions but does not make it unique. I am not saying "y u no have 4e stuffs?" I'm saying that I don't care if we have stuff from 4th ed, or any edition really.


Sorry i made a mistake, i wanted to say goodness. I meant that more good practices, designs methods and rules will crawl in D&D Next as time go by and and may come from its predecessors or even other games or new innovations. 

I didn't say you said Next was a retroclone redux or anything. I think D&D Next is slowly shaping up to be a unique game with components inspired from all editions and beyond...and i don't care if it doesn't ressemble 4E.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I find the lore of D&D to be more compelling than the mechanics of the game.  I enjoy following the stories, even from edition to edition, seeing how things have changed or stayed the same.  I really like the lore of 4e.  New races, new cosmologies, lotsa new stories.  For the first time in a very long time, D&D feels fresh and new to me.

4e is the first game of D&D that appeals to me as much for mechanics as lore.  I hope to see 4e-style combat as part of DDN (for major fights at least).  That's the one thing I'm holding out for.

I also hope that Vancian casting makes a comeback (for wizards at least).  Preferrably with options for at-will and encounter spells, and a system for rituals.

= = =

So, I don't really want a re-creation of any particular system (even 4e).  Is hoping for the best of all words (IMO) realistic though?

I also hope the published lore of 4e gets carried into DDN.  I don't know how 'compatable' it will be with earlier stuff but I'd hate to see it cast aside in favor of the other.
/\ Art
I'm enjoying the new edition, but I agree it needs to feel more new. I think the ability mods need to be ability score -10. So a 17 is a +7. This one change would make things roll better with a system based on ability scores. Keep the d20 just change the mods. Also, this gives you a range of options based on the amount nat ability versus skill in a roll. You have an ability mod: 17 gives +7, you have a half ability mod of +3, and a one-quarter abilty mod of +1. Attacks and AC should use your full ability mod. Damage uses your half ability mod. Call em Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary mods and try it out.
I'm enjoying the new edition, but I agree it needs to feel more new. I think the ability mods need to be ability score -10. So a 17 is a +7. This one change would make things roll better with a system based on ability scores. Keep the d20 just change the mods. Also, this gives you a range of options based on the amount nat ability versus skill in a roll. You have an ability mod: 17 gives +7, you have a half ability mod of +3, and a one-quarter abilty mod of +1. Attacks and AC should use your full ability mod. Damage uses your half ability mod. Call em Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary mods and try it out.

In the recent AMA, Mike Mearls stated that this was tried and it didn't work because it created too much variance in Attack and AC (Str and Dex had over-inflated impacts on combat) unless ability scores were cut out of those equations.

The only solution I can see that would support this would be to rescale things so that 14 (+4) is the highest you can roll and 5 (-5) is the lowest you can roll, which destroys the existing familiarity of the ability score ranges -- a score of 18 gains a completely different meaning, and even a score of 16 goes from "gifted" to "superhuman."  If you do that, you might as well throw out the 3d6/3-18 scale all together; personally, I'd be fine if they went with a completely new system for ability scores, as long as it worked, but that's not going to happen, as it's too "iconic."

"I want 'punch magic in the face' to be a maneuver." -- wrecan

I'm afraid that when the nostalgia wears off of old players and they actually do start paying attention to the mechanics they will realize how truly horrible the game is so far, and just abandon it and go back to their preferred edition or game system. I know the 4E crowd will play it like that and then go back to 4e or 13th age (or hopefully my upcoming TTRPG). Basically I see WotC making a huge mistake and they will lose customers over it...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
This was tried? I must have missed that edition. Unless you meant 2nd edition where you rolled less than your score which is essentially the same in reverse.

How over inflated does it get? Level 1 fighter: 19 Str gives +9 to hit +3 for being a fighter. Total +12. Rogue in leather has 16 Dex for +6, plus his armor +2. For an 18 AC. The fighter with a huge Strength needs to still roll a 6 or better, and will miss 1/4 the time. Trying to hit another fighter in chainmail (AC 20) , with a heavy shield (+2), total AC 22. The fighter needs a 10 or better to hit himself. Even a char with a score as low as 11 in his primary attack mod (why?) would have a +1 , +2 prof bonus (total +3) can hit the fighter on a 19 (nearly impossible, but why is a fighter with 11 Str even breathing).

20th level: Adamant Armor might give you a 24 AC with a +2 for a shield, and we will give another +2 for feats and stuff: AC 28. Pretty good but the first level fighter can still hit the 20th level guy on a 16 or higher. A 20th level attack might have 24 Str (+14 bonus), + 3 for fighter, +2 for feats (total +19) Really good, but still misses the adamant tank on a 8 or less.
What about the 20th level rogue: 24 Dex (+14), Mithral chain (rogue?) (+5), +2 dodge feats (total AC 31!). Thats really good, but can still be hit by the 20th level fighter on a roll of 12 or better. The first level fighter needs a 19 or 20, still doable without even needing a nat 20. Seems kosher to me.

Why is this unbalanced?
This was tried? I must have missed that edition. Unless you meant 2nd edition where you rolled less than your score which is essentially the same in reverse.

How over inflated does it get? Level 1 fighter: 19 Str gives +9 to hit +3 for being a fighter. Total +12. Rogue in leather has 16 Dex for +6, plus his armor +2. For an 18 AC. The fighter with a huge Strength needs to still roll a 6 or better, and will miss 1/4 the time. 20th level: Adamant Armor might give you a 24 AC with a +2 for a shield, and we will give another +2 for feats and stuff: AC 28. Pretty good but the first level fighter can still hit the 20th level guy on a 16 or higher. A 20th level attack might have 24 Str (+14 bonus), + 3 for fighter, +2 for feats (total +19) Really good, but still misses the adamant tank on a 8 or less.
What about the 20th level rogue: 24 Dex (+14), Mithral chain (rogue?) (+5), +2 dodge feats (total AC 31!). Thats really good, but can still be hit by the 20th level fighter on a roll of 12 or better. The first level fighter needs a 19 or 20, still doable without even needing a nat 20. Seems kosher to me.

Why is this unbalanced?



It's not.  It's just downright silly.  Are people -really- so fixated on having a bigger number?  It's like d-peen or something, I guess.

It's like a game of Disgaea 2.  Sure, you can do 2,113,923,391 pts of damage in a single hit (and you can)...but -why-?  Good god think of the hit points!  A wizard could get almost -twice- as many hit points as his base hit die just on CON alone.  The hit point inflation for monsters with mega-CON would be ridiculous.

"Lightning...it flashes bright, then fades away.  It can't protect, it can only destroy."

This was tried? I must have missed that edition. Unless you meant 2nd edition where you rolled less than your score which is essentially the same in reverse.

How over inflated does it get? Level 1 fighter: 19 Str gives +9 to hit +3 for being a fighter. Total +12. Rogue in leather has 16 Dex for +6, plus his armor +2. For an 18 AC. The fighter with a huge Strength needs to still roll a 6 or better, and will miss 1/4 the time. 20th level: Adamant Armor might give you a 24 AC with a +2 for a shield, and we will give another +2 for feats and stuff: AC 28. Pretty good but the first level fighter can still hit the 20th level guy on a 16 or higher. A 20th level attack might have 24 Str (+14 bonus), + 3 for fighter, +2 for feats (total +19) Really good, but still misses the adamant tank on a 8 or less.
What about the 20th level rogue: 24 Dex (+14), Mithral chain (rogue?) (+5), +2 dodge feats (total AC 31!). Thats really good, but can still be hit by the 20th level fighter on a roll of 12 or better. The first level fighter needs a 19 or 20, still doable without even needing a nat 20. Seems kosher to me.

Why is this unbalanced?



It's not.  It's just downright silly.  Are people -really- so fixated on having a bigger number?  It's like d-peen or something, I guess.

It's like a game of Disgaea 2.  Sure, you can do 2,113,923,391 pts of damage in a single hit (and you can)...but -why-?  Good god think of the hit points!  A wizard could get almost -twice- as many hit points as his base hit die just on CON alone.  The hit point inflation for monsters with mega-CON would be ridiculous.




What a joke. I don't need to compensate for anything. I just want a real world to game in. When the wizard needs to open a stuck door he gets a -1 penalty the fighter gets a +9. The wizard needs a 16 to hit 15, the fighter needs a 6. In the current rules the wizard needs a 16, the fighter needs a 11. Thats some puny fighter if he has such crappy odds at that door next to the wizard (with its 9 Strength).
 

A wizard could get almost -twice- as many hit points as his base hit die just on CON alone.  The hit point inflation for monsters with mega-CON would be ridiculous.




You do know you can always use 1/2 your ability mod for hp right? Use the mod that works for the situation. We've been using fractions for years.
I'm afraid that when the nostalgia wears off of old players and they actually do start paying attention to the mechanics they will realize how truly horrible the game is so far, and just abandon it and go back to their preferred edition or game system. I know the 4E crowd will play it like that and then go back to 4e or 13th age (or hopefully my upcoming TTRPG). Basically I see WotC making a huge mistake and they will lose customers over it...




It seems like you dig the Collins/Heinsoo/Wyatt deal; the sun does not set with them for some of us. 
Wyatt is a boss, cause he went to Oberlin for collage, became a priest, and wrote the DMG for the edition that is often praised for the ease of DMing.
Also, why is 3-18 iconic? It only represents the minimum and maximum for 3d6, which is completely obsolete in any mathmaticly sound RPG (one of my requirements from the OP). Anyway, I won't buy anything save the PHB until good modules come out.
holydoom.weebly.com: Holydoom! A lighthearted RPG in progress. Loosely based on 3.5. 4, and GURPS. Very, Very, Very loosely. Seriously, visit it now. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29086701/I_HIT_IT_WITH_MA_SWORD!_(like_this!):_A_Slayers_Handbook An attempt at CharOp
To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
"see sig" redirects here
Oblivious troll is Oblivious
PbP supporter!
General thoughts, feelings, and info on DDN!
Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
in any mathmaticly sound RPG




That in itself, is very amusing.
in any mathmaticly sound RPG




That in itself, is very amusing.


Thanks for being vague and unhelpful. Mind actualy saying something instead of being "clever?"
holydoom.weebly.com: Holydoom! A lighthearted RPG in progress. Loosely based on 3.5. 4, and GURPS. Very, Very, Very loosely. Seriously, visit it now. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29086701/I_HIT_IT_WITH_MA_SWORD!_(like_this!):_A_Slayers_Handbook An attempt at CharOp
To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
"see sig" redirects here
Oblivious troll is Oblivious
PbP supporter!
General thoughts, feelings, and info on DDN!
Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
Thanks for being vague and unhelpful.




Are we supposed to help you?
The point of the forums is to have a constructive conversation. You haven't bothered to do that so far.
holydoom.weebly.com: Holydoom! A lighthearted RPG in progress. Loosely based on 3.5. 4, and GURPS. Very, Very, Very loosely. Seriously, visit it now. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29086701/I_HIT_IT_WITH_MA_SWORD!_(like_this!):_A_Slayers_Handbook An attempt at CharOp
To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
"see sig" redirects here
Oblivious troll is Oblivious
PbP supporter!
General thoughts, feelings, and info on DDN!
Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
The point of the forums is to have a constructive conversation. You haven't bothered to do that so far.




You don't seem to be constructing anything, please leave me alone.
The point of the forums is to have a constructive conversation. You haven't bothered to do that so far.




You don't seem to be constructing anything, please leave me alone.


You replied to my post in a vague and snarky manner that served no purpose as it expressed no opinions and gave no ideas. I asked you what you meant and you continued to be disrespectful and unhelpful. All I want is for you to elaborate on what you meant when you said "that, in itself, is amusing."
holydoom.weebly.com: Holydoom! A lighthearted RPG in progress. Loosely based on 3.5. 4, and GURPS. Very, Very, Very loosely. Seriously, visit it now. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29086701/I_HIT_IT_WITH_MA_SWORD!_(like_this!):_A_Slayers_Handbook An attempt at CharOp
To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
"see sig" redirects here
Oblivious troll is Oblivious
PbP supporter!
General thoughts, feelings, and info on DDN!
Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
All I want is for you to elaborate on what you meant when you said "that, in itself, is amusing."




Okay, first of all, misspelling "mathematically", and applying "math" to a RPG.
All I want is for you to elaborate on what you meant when you said "that, in itself, is amusing."




Okay, first of all, misspelling "mathematically", and applying "math" to a RPG.


Not discussing the topic at hand, for Steely only

So, um, last time I checked, who cares about spelling? Calling out multiple people (I've seen you do this before) on spelling is a waste of space.

Why should we not apply math to an RPG? It is part game, after all, and virtually all 4e fans and a good deal of others find it important, which is reason enough to do it. Imbalance only serves to hinder RP and G.
holydoom.weebly.com: Holydoom! A lighthearted RPG in progress. Loosely based on 3.5. 4, and GURPS. Very, Very, Very loosely. Seriously, visit it now. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29086701/I_HIT_IT_WITH_MA_SWORD!_(like_this!):_A_Slayers_Handbook An attempt at CharOp
To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
"see sig" redirects here
Oblivious troll is Oblivious
PbP supporter!
General thoughts, feelings, and info on DDN!
Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
*snip*




Your little thingy didn't open.
Weird, it works for me. Anyway, it saysfont to worry about spelling.
holydoom.weebly.com: Holydoom! A lighthearted RPG in progress. Loosely based on 3.5. 4, and GURPS. Very, Very, Very loosely. Seriously, visit it now. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29086701/I_HIT_IT_WITH_MA_SWORD!_(like_this!):_A_Slayers_Handbook An attempt at CharOp
To anyone who thinks Pathfinder is outselling D&D
While one report may say that FLGS report a greater amount of book sales, one cannot forget the fact that the 71000 DDI subscribers paying 6-10 dollars a month don't count as "Book Sales."
"see sig" redirects here
Oblivious troll is Oblivious
PbP supporter!
General thoughts, feelings, and info on DDN!
Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
Weird, it works for me. Anyway, it saysfont to worry about spelling.

Works for me, too.  Yes, Dan harps on spelling when people he doesn't agree with make spelling errors.  Like, you have a typo, above:   f for d, missing space, missing apostrophe.  Clearly this indicates that any valid point you may make should be ignored.

5e really needs something like Wrecan's SARN-FU to support "Theatre of the Mind."

"You want The Tooth?  You can't handle The Tooth!"  - Dahlver-Nar.

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly"  - E. Gary Gygax

 

 

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