Replicating 4e in D&DNext in the D&DNext discussion thread

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I've been thinking about how to re-do 4e in a D&DNext style format, where it still feels as if it is 4e, but has some of the possibilities of D&DNext done right.

Here's the thread.

I'd appreciate some CharOp dissection of it - the goals are speed, ease of play, where things done in it could be used in a regular 4e game if possible. In particular, suggestions about what to do about forced movement in the context of Theatre of the Mind.

If I had to pin a target on it, it would be how Essentials would look if it was also intended to fix the big problems of 4e(feat taxes, math imbalances) and had the idea of Advantage to throw into it.

Thanks! 
Why would anyone want to do such a ridiculous thing?
Advantage is bad, next is bad, Essentials is bad. You're combining all three in a format that doesn't belong in this forum. Grats.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
The only thing to take from next is the bounded accuracy.

Mainly, remove then 1/2 level bonus, and use inhereted bonuses.



Advantage wouldn't work with 4e.  There's too many +1 and +2's that count for too much.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Why would anyone want to do such a ridiculous thing?



Why would anyone want to build a character that they never plan on playing?

I think the way I modified things preserves almost the entire core of 4e tactical play while allowing for the kind of play that some people who are really into D&DNext want to play. No, haven't even tried to replicate Vancian casting.

The link is where I'm actually addressing issues
... No, haven't even tried to replicate Vancian casting ...



Elsewhere, I've pointed out that " Vance " should be the name of the
vancian arcane caster.  Terms such as "Wizard" and "Mage" should
be peeled away from the "Vance".  This way, the people who know better
can just go ahead and play the Class ABCD the way it's always been
played ; and the people who are absolutely sure that vance casting
is a sign of the coming apocalypse ... (clears the ringing in my ears)
... can go play a NOT-Vance that is named whatever stereotype they
need to fulfil their hopes and dreams about the bless-ed Class ABCE.

The Vance class --- it's for people who can handle the truth of Vance.
The Not Vance class --- it's for people who can't handle the truth.

(wink)


5E mini- SRD available now in HTML here:  http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop/players-basic-rules

 

I think the way I modified things preserves almost the entire core of 4e tactical play while allowing for the kind of play that some people who are really into D&DNext want to play. No, haven't even tried to replicate Vancian casting.



After seeing this statement, but especially the part I emphasized, I get the impression you would be someone who could appreciate some comments from my current gaming group.  I haven't played at an actual tabletop in nearly 20 years, and instead have been involved with Play by Post campaigns.  The DM for my recent campaigns runs both PbP and tabletop sessions.

Our conclusion is that 4e is hands-down the best edition ever put forth for PbP campaigns and other forms of on-line play.  The grid requirement of 4e is perfectly fine with us as on-line play requires it regardless of edition (and of course, the grid is a large part of the 4e tatical play you mention).  Next, while appearing to greatly improve combat resolution time at the tabletop, simply won't do for on-line games as it brings back too much of the issues we experienced with 3.x, Vancian casting among them.

While I think your efforts have the best of intentions, in the end I suspect that any efforts (Wizards' included) to try and resolve differences between 4e and Next or otherwise make the formats compatible will fall flat on their face.

I predict a schism will form between 4e and Next players similar to, but larger than, the one that appears to exist between 3.x and 4e players.  In fact, my current on-line group has already decided to ignore Next and continue with 4e until we players (not our PCs) drop dead (or until 6e returns to the style of 4e Wink ) if at release the product even remotely resembles anything presented in the playtest packet.
Your  auto-hit/auto-miss rules and minion hitpoints are there simply to avoid you having to subtract level from monster defenses and attacks. Just take the plunge and do the subtraction. After you've done it, minions are simply the original low level monster instead of a wonky minionized creature.

Make sure you use the non-scaling skill targets too.

The advantage rules of DDNext are ok. Your whacky half-advantage rule seems like too much complexity. I'd probably stick with DDNext advantage. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that an avenger

I would probably just remove feats entirely. There's very very few feats that add anything to the game except complexity. I would probably also get rid of combat centric utility powers, which leaves utilities to take the place of the non-combat powers handed out in next. You'll need to make up some neat utilities for classes that have a dearth of non-combat ones.

Changing instants to opportunity actions (with different timing) seems a fair trade.

most minor actions become nothing actions.
Your  auto-hit/auto-miss rules and minion hitpoints are there simply to avoid you having to subtract level from monster defenses and attacks. Just take the plunge and do the subtraction. After you've done it, minions are simply the original low level monster instead of a wonky minionized creature.



This is not the thread for this, but I'll state the major, major need of any changes to the rules:
The player can use Character Builder output and not have to make any changes to it.
The DM can use monsters as is and not have to make any changes to them unless the change is absolutely obvious in play(i.e. a 5th level minion have say 10 hp instead of 1)

Things which go outside that involve appealing to people who like doing math, yet are also interested in having lots of relatively simple combats. That's not a large group.
It's not unreasonable to say 'That an Avenger,' but it lacks a verb and doesn't mean anything.
Advantage is bad, next is bad, Essentials is bad. You're combining all three in a format that doesn't belong in this forum. Grats.




Essentials was so much cleanier and more fluid than Core 4e it's not even funny. Having tons of bad options and split attack stats for so long were bad. I don't know many people in 4e that don't want faster cleaner combat. 
Forced mnovement in TotM would basically result in the enemy being shoved where they are adjacent to (or not adjacent to) whoever/whatever you want. For instance you can tide of iron an orc that's blocking a doorway, and make room to enter (orc is no longer blocking the doorway). Your bard could slide the orc archer toward the barbarian, allow the barbarian to swing, and continue to slide him to the sorcerer, ending the slide in the sorcerer's fire aura. You just describe what you want to do with it, and depending on some loose understanding of the distance of forced movement possible, DM makes the call, whether it's possible or not. 
DM makes the call, whether it's possible or not. 


Throw in a conversion of squares to feet (simple x5) for the max distance you can push/pull/slide something to influence if you can or not.

Simply because a Paragon tier Warlock using Harrowstorm is able to throw a creature 20 yards away should factor in the DM's call in gridless play.
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