the ultimate Surge fix

Third go around...

SURGE

You may use the Force to accomplish amazing athletic feats. Time: full-round action. Target: you.

Make a Use the Force check:

DC 15: Jump 4 squares in any direction (no Jump check required) or move up to 5 times your base speed.

DC 20: Jump 6 squares in any direction, or move up to 10 times your base speed.

DC 25: Jump 8 squares in any direction, or move up to 15 times your base speed.
Children believe what we tell them, they have complete faith in us. I ask of you a little of this childlike simplicity, and to bring us luck, let me speak four truly magic words: "A long time ago...." (Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast) Winner of You Build the Character #12, YbtC #22, YbtC #24, YbtC #28 and YbtC #35 Winner of You Make the... Contest #8




Does Jump 8sq in any direction include up?


 


 

JOIN US AT THE NEW STAR WARS SAGA EDITION COMMUNITY: THE SAGA CONTINUES!

 

Compiled files of all Star Wars Saga Edition resource documents & reference tools - NPCs, character sheets, Dawn of Defiance, Force and lightsaber form power cards, Jedi Counseling articles, NPC statblocks, Saga Index to all feats, talents, species, weapons, etc, Star Wars articles and web enhancements

Yes, including up.
Children believe what we tell them, they have complete faith in us. I ask of you a little of this childlike simplicity, and to bring us luck, let me speak four truly magic words: "A long time ago...." (Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast) Winner of You Build the Character #12, YbtC #22, YbtC #24, YbtC #28 and YbtC #35 Winner of You Make the... Contest #8
Sealed
Sealed

What he's trying to say is that he thinks it's overpowered. So do I. It will make anyone with this power impossible to follow. This "fix" also makes the Levitate power nearly useless (which only grants a fly speed of 6sq at DC 25). I don't think it's fair that a character can move 90 squares with just a DC 20. All I need to do is take Running Attack, spend a FP with Surge, and I have an unstoppable jedi, running across the battlefield, moving in and out of the combat grid.



JOIN US AT THE NEW STAR WARS SAGA EDITION COMMUNITY: THE SAGA CONTINUES!

 

Compiled files of all Star Wars Saga Edition resource documents & reference tools - NPCs, character sheets, Dawn of Defiance, Force and lightsaber form power cards, Jedi Counseling articles, NPC statblocks, Saga Index to all feats, talents, species, weapons, etc, Star Wars articles and web enhancements

Sealed

What he's trying to say is that he thinks it's overpowered. So do I. ...



Well, I included the FP/DP extended duration for those who might want cartoon like super movement.

Mainly my issue is with jumping, and by RAW even spending a DP you can't really emulate the standing vertical jumps of 10+ meters that we see in the movies. And jumping really far is just not DP worthy, not even close (especially if you don't even use DP's in your game, which I don't).

As for levitate there's only one example in the movies (Mace Windu) so it seems more of a niche power, compared to super jumps which are common, but it does have the virtue of being used as a reaction by spending a FP. Still, the game already has plenty of examples of "flavor" powers that are mechanically weaker than other choices, so I'm not really worried about overshadowing levitate with this.

So anyway, that's my reasoning.
Children believe what we tell them, they have complete faith in us. I ask of you a little of this childlike simplicity, and to bring us luck, let me speak four truly magic words: "A long time ago...." (Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast) Winner of You Build the Character #12, YbtC #22, YbtC #24, YbtC #28 and YbtC #35 Winner of You Make the... Contest #8
That being said... I should probably increase my surge DC's to 15-20-25 (but I'm wnriting this on a tablet right now, and I can't access the board's edit feature on the tablet).
Children believe what we tell them, they have complete faith in us. I ask of you a little of this childlike simplicity, and to bring us luck, let me speak four truly magic words: "A long time ago...." (Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast) Winner of You Build the Character #12, YbtC #22, YbtC #24, YbtC #28 and YbtC #35 Winner of You Make the... Contest #8
High Jumping in SAGA is hard (it is in real life as well) but when it comes to using Surge I also have that power count as using a pole in addition to the free "running start" which will cut the high jump DC in half.  With a good UtF roll and FP assistance the Surge +40 Jump bonus should let you clear an additional 6.7 meters (4+ squares) which is pretty amazing.  That's jumping to the top of a two story building and does NOT include you normal jump check.  If I assume you could get a net 60 on your Jump check that would allow you to clear 10m which is a three story building.  That's still less then 7 squares however and is actually figuring a pretty good UtF and Jump check result.

If you consider how hard it normally would be to clear just 3 meters with a running jump it would makes Surge jumps seem godlike.  If you throw in my little suggestion on having Surge also count as a pole for high jumps and you can do amazing things.  Jumping to the top of a skyscrapper should still take a DP assuming you could even have enough movement to make it that far. 


What I have a problem with the movies is the ridiculous falling that the jedi seem to be doing. I mean, how far did Anakin fall in Episode 2 when he jumped out of his airspeeder on Coruscant and landed on Zam Wasell’s speeder? The fall seemed to last for at least 15 seconds! That’s probably over a 1000 meters drop.

The FAQ says: If you fall from a height of greater than 60 meters (the height you need to reach terminal velocity for 20d6 damage), the distance for purposes of being reduced by Acrobatics and Jump is treated as only being 60 meters.

So Anakin (as statted out in CW page 127) has a UtF of +19, so he can easily achieve the DC 20 to gain +30 on Jump. His Jump mod is +10, for a total of +40. An average roll of 10 will yield a 50.

That’s good for a DC 45 Jump check to reduce the fall by 12 meters. That leaves 48 meters.

He can then make an Acrobatics check to further reduce falling damage. His Acrobatics mod is +15, so let’s say he gets DC 25, he can reduce his fall by 6m. That leaves 42m.

42 meter fall deals 14d6 damage, but only if Anakin is beaten by the 1d20+20 attack vs. his Fort of 31. If the attack fails, he takes half damage. 14d6 averages to about 48 damage, 24 half damage. His hp is 141, so I guess he would have no trouble surviving even if everything goes against him. But he didn’t seem any worse for wear.

But it would seem that the reason he survives is not because of Surge but mostly because of his high level (15) and hp.



JOIN US AT THE NEW STAR WARS SAGA EDITION COMMUNITY: THE SAGA CONTINUES!

 

Compiled files of all Star Wars Saga Edition resource documents & reference tools - NPCs, character sheets, Dawn of Defiance, Force and lightsaber form power cards, Jedi Counseling articles, NPC statblocks, Saga Index to all feats, talents, species, weapons, etc, Star Wars articles and web enhancements

Even full falling damage (20d6) only averages 70 points of damage which would allow a typical 7th-level Soldier or Jedi to survive.  Modelling falling damage has always been a little questionable.

Isn't there also something about jumping into/onto a yielding surface reducing damage as well?  While landing on an airspeeder may not be quite like jumping into a lake I could argue that it would be even better.  When he lands on the airspeeder the speeder IS going to drop before it can recover from the added load and that whould further reduce falling damage.
 
Even full falling damage (20d6) only averages 70 points of damage which would allow a typical 7th-level Soldier or Jedi to survive.  Modelling falling damage has always been a little questionable. 

Yes, but Surge should allow more than just surviving a fall. And like I said, it doesn't seem like Anakin takes any noticeable damage when he lands on the airspeeder at terminal velocity. Yes I know, hp loss is abstract and can't always be "noticed". But still....



Isn't there also something about jumping into/onto a yielding surface reducing damage as well?  While landing on an airspeeder may not be quite like jumping into a lake I could argue that it would be even better.  When he lands on the airspeeder the speeder IS going to drop before it can recover from the added load and that whould further reduce falling damage.
 

I can't find anything about falling on a yielding surface. I think that even if you fell on a trampoline at terminal velocity, you'll probably still die.


JOIN US AT THE NEW STAR WARS SAGA EDITION COMMUNITY: THE SAGA CONTINUES!

 

Compiled files of all Star Wars Saga Edition resource documents & reference tools - NPCs, character sheets, Dawn of Defiance, Force and lightsaber form power cards, Jedi Counseling articles, NPC statblocks, Saga Index to all feats, talents, species, weapons, etc, Star Wars articles and web enhancements

I don't see anything about a yielding surface reducing falling damage in my first printing SECR either but it can be found in other d20 sources.  When it comes to falling and climbing SAGA is still very similiar to the numbers you'd find in DnD 3.0.

Actually, if you fell on a large enough trampoline at terminal velocity you should not only survive the fall but also get thrown back up to where you started.  Of course physics doesn't quite allow that much conservation of energy and you'd probably have trouble landing the second time but it should work.

I don't know if they still do it but back before CGI many of those long falls you'd see in the movies and on television actually WERE people falling/jumping from those place.  These Fall Guys would be landing in big but yielding things to survive the falls.  I know that I recently say images of a guy in a flying suit (a birdman if that means anything) land in a BIG pile of carboard boxes but without a parachute.

Remember, free falling NEVER kills anyone.  What kills people is either their body's own reaction to the idea of impending doom or the abrubt stop  that often happens when you stop falling.     
IIRC, Anakin hit Zam's speeder fairly softly (maybe the speeder was also flying downward at the time?) Anyway, that wasn't a high speed collision. Now, Kenobi falling a huge distance in the duel with Maul was definitely a high speed collision that would have killed a normal person. And he didn't appear to slow his descent telekinetically. That leaves something like a high Force shield roll plus a really low damage roll, or more likely just a really generous GM. ;)

Anyway, my friend thinks that surge probably shouldn't even require a roll most times. It should have effects like jump a superhuman distance if the GM thinks it's within reason, or automatically exit a scene (like a ship jumping to hyperspace) unless the opponent also has surge, etc.
Children believe what we tell them, they have complete faith in us. I ask of you a little of this childlike simplicity, and to bring us luck, let me speak four truly magic words: "A long time ago...." (Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast) Winner of You Build the Character #12, YbtC #22, YbtC #24, YbtC #28 and YbtC #35 Winner of You Make the... Contest #8
I'm afraid that Surge does need a measurable effect otherwise where do you ever draw the line?  Surge already allows for superhuman speed and distance on a jump and also a super human high jump.  That high jump is especially true if you include my one modification to the power.  Even without houserules it still takes a couple good rolls to jump up one story but we need to realize that even if that doesn't seem like a lot it most certainly is better that humans can usually come close to doing.

A crazy thing about high jumping is that it is even assuming that if you can make your height you get to land on your feet.  In the real world those highest jump heights are almost NEVER actually cleared by a person's center of mass. 
I'd be fine drawing the line at 6 squares jumping. Just burn the power and jump a total of up to 6 squares, and get on with game. I hate slowing the game down for bean counting, plus you avoid any embarrassing Wile E. Coyote moments where you almost make the jump check but not quite. As for running, you shouldn't max out at doubling your speed, you should zip out of frame in a blur. The old Burst of Speed feat gave you 5x base speed, which is more like it. So I guess I could treat a use of the surge power like the Burst of Speed in that respect. It's still basically an automatic "move off the map" button, but if for some reason you need to know the exact number of squares moved, that could be the baseline.
Children believe what we tell them, they have complete faith in us. I ask of you a little of this childlike simplicity, and to bring us luck, let me speak four truly magic words: "A long time ago...." (Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast) Winner of You Build the Character #12, YbtC #22, YbtC #24, YbtC #28 and YbtC #35 Winner of You Make the... Contest #8
Okay, I edited the OP and hopefully have now addressed the previous problems. 1) Got rid of the extended duration option; 2) raised the DC; and 3) made it a full-round action. I think this last change rules out most concerns about Running Attack and such. Also it makes the DC 15 super speed option into basically a one-time use of the Sprint talent (which, let's face it, is not one of the better talents in the game). At DC 20 & 25 you're a blur, but you should be a blur when using the super-speed power as an experienced Force user. That's how it looks when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan use it, so I think it's fitting.
Children believe what we tell them, they have complete faith in us. I ask of you a little of this childlike simplicity, and to bring us luck, let me speak four truly magic words: "A long time ago...." (Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast) Winner of You Build the Character #12, YbtC #22, YbtC #24, YbtC #28 and YbtC #35 Winner of You Make the... Contest #8
I still think the effect may be too much in a couple areas while also being limiting in a couple others.  Your "automatic jump" distance is too high for my tastes but may not not quite match the length of the RAW surge where 8 squares long is just DC 36.  Making it a full round action also hurts its use as a battle closer where it can be used to make a lightsaber strike from an improbably distance.

How about leaving Surge the way it is and making the following adjustment:

“When you use Surge, the High jump DC = distance (in meters) x4 instead of the normal x12.”

That means that a DC 25 Surge will give you +30 Jump and +4 sq speed as usual. But now, a Jedi Knight make a high Jump (assume Jump mod +10) with an average Jump roll (10) gets a 50. 50 div.by 4 = 12.5 meters or 8 squares.

If you want, you can also throw in:

“You are considered to have a running start.”

In other words, the DC for a long Jump or high Jump check is not doubled without a running start.

JOIN US AT THE NEW STAR WARS SAGA EDITION COMMUNITY: THE SAGA CONTINUES!

 

Compiled files of all Star Wars Saga Edition resource documents & reference tools - NPCs, character sheets, Dawn of Defiance, Force and lightsaber form power cards, Jedi Counseling articles, NPC statblocks, Saga Index to all feats, talents, species, weapons, etc, Star Wars articles and web enhancements

The errata on Surge already states that using it qualifies as a running start at least for the long jump.  I've already mentioned that for a high jump I think Surge should qualify as using a sufficiently long pole and cut the normal DC of height (in meters) x12 in half for height x6.  That change means you can clear something half as high as you could jump across.  When going for height or distance the DCs for jump get doubled withOUT a running start.
I house ruled Surge so you gain the effects of spending a destiny point by spending a Force Point.  I made the effect gained from normally spending a FP as another DC.

Looks like this:

DC 25: As DC 10 except: +40 Force bonus on Jump checks, speed increases by 6 squares.

You may spend a Force Point to gain an additional 4 squares of movement; when you do so, you may also use any and all movement for the round as a part of a jump (no Jump check required).

 So far it works really well mimicing what we see in the films and the CW cartoon, and avoids blowing a Destiny point on being able to do it.
Oh no, my young Jedi. You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things. Winner of the Winner of You Build the Character #34: Padme Amidala
I house ruled Surge so you gain the effects of spending a destiny point by spending a Force Point.  I made the effect gained from normally spending a FP as another DC.

Looks like this:

DC 25: As DC 10 except: +40 Force bonus on Jump checks, speed increases by 6 squares.


I really like this, but why don't you make the DC 25 speed increase to 8 squares? That would be the next progression, since DC 10 = 2sq, DC 15 = 4sq, DC 20 = 6sq.





JOIN US AT THE NEW STAR WARS SAGA EDITION COMMUNITY: THE SAGA CONTINUES!

 

Compiled files of all Star Wars Saga Edition resource documents & reference tools - NPCs, character sheets, Dawn of Defiance, Force and lightsaber form power cards, Jedi Counseling articles, NPC statblocks, Saga Index to all feats, talents, species, weapons, etc, Star Wars articles and web enhancements

What I want to avoid is stopping the game to make some complicated calculation of a Jump DC. I don't see the point of that. I also don't think a max of double run speed really matches the source material.
Children believe what we tell them, they have complete faith in us. I ask of you a little of this childlike simplicity, and to bring us luck, let me speak four truly magic words: "A long time ago...." (Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast) Winner of You Build the Character #12, YbtC #22, YbtC #24, YbtC #28 and YbtC #35 Winner of You Make the... Contest #8
I house ruled Surge so you gain the effects of spending a destiny point by spending a Force Point.  I made the effect gained from normally spending a FP as another DC.

Looks like this:

DC 25: As DC 10 except: +40 Force bonus on Jump checks, speed increases by 6 squares.


I really like this, but why don't you make the DC 25 speed increase to 8 squares? That would be the next progression, since DC 10 = 2sq, DC 15 = 4sq, DC 20 = 6sq.





Oops, yeah it is 8 squares.

With my version of Surge you can just avoid the calculation of making a jump check by spending a force point.  so far it has been used when the calculation of a jump would just be too much effort and the FP helps move the action along. 
Oh no, my young Jedi. You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things. Winner of the Winner of You Build the Character #34: Padme Amidala
I'm going to say your problem with Surge isn't Surge but how complex the Jump skill is when figuring out DCs.  If Jump simply said could long jump 2 squares for every 9 points of your Jump check (half that without a running start) or high jump 1 square for every 18 points (double with pole; half without running start) it would be a LOT easier to understand.  The math may not be pretty but it is a lot simpler then figuring out the distance in squares, converting that to meters, and then figuring out the Jump DC needed with more mulitplication.  I mean we should have seen

Jump Roll: Distance covered
5:  1 square long
9:  2 square long, 1 square high with pole
14:  3 square long
15:  Reduce effective fall height 2 squares 
18:  4 square long, 1 square high, 2 high with pole
23:  5 long
27:  6 long, 3 high with pole
32:  7 long
36:  8 long, 2 high, 4 high with pole
41:  9 long
45:  10 long, 5 high with pole
Without a 4 square running start distances are halved.

This is a lot easier to follow although it doesn't line up nicely with most other DC tables.

If you round the numbers Surge gives you (and maybe add my Surge = using pole for high jump HR) you'd see these results from Surge:
DC 10 = +2 squares long, +1 square high, +2 square speed
DC 15 = +4 long, +2 high, +4 speed
DC 20 = +6 long, +3 high, +6 speed
spend FP = +2 long, + 1 high, +2 speed in addition to rolled value. 
Without my suggested houserule the high jump values would be cut in half but it is still easy to figure out even if it is a bit weaker then the actual RAW values
Sign In to post comments