06/20/2012 - Banned and Restricted List

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This thread is for discussion of this month's Banned and Restricted List, which goes live Tuesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Prediction:
Block, Standard, Vintage:
No Change

Legacy:
Show and Tell or Griselbrand is BANNED or (more likely) an article talks about how they are being watched closely.
Mind Twist is UNBANNED

Modern:
Gifts Ungiven is BANNED
End prediction.
Level 2 Magic Judge Lite a man a fire, warm him for a day. Light a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Blegh. Screw standard then. I'll likely sit out until rotation.

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71235715 wrote:
That is total bs. Even the article says "Standard is currently dominated by delver" This shows it isn't about balance its about attendence and I hope the sudden drop in attendence to spite them.
If delver is winning about 50% of its matches, how is it unbalanced?

Edit - perhaps it's an overpowered deck that's being played by unskilled pilots. Oh well, let the wannabe-Spike-blue-o-philes have their fun, the deck rotates out in four months. 
right call
i dropped 80 on scm and 80 on gost
thankx wotc
you have my loyalty 
This is just more kicking the can down the road mentality. If M13 doesn't fix standard like they think, this will blow up in their face big time. I think everyone is sick of blue having so much card manipulation while other colors get nothing compareable. When's the last time white had card draw like blue? Honestly, their design teams need to be rethinking their philosophies on card design and relative powers between colors.

If this continues, deck designing will become non-existant and everyone will just copy-paste the top 8 from the last event. It's just sickening how far Magic has fallen from the days where legitimate deck designing and free thinking was encouraged by the cards being printed.
M13 has nothing that beats Delver so far. Will it be like when Great Sable Stag and Volcanic Fallout put a stop to Faeries? Oh...wait...that didn't happen.

WOTC continues to make overpowered UW cards, they have dominated Standard for years.

The message here is if you want to play in a high-level event or even an fnm with a competitive metagame, play whatever UW deck WOTC has given you this year, play it all the time, and tune it for the mirror, cause you'll be playing it alot.


It would benefit the design team to go play in a couple of serious events, they obviously continue to read what the metagame is going to be incorrectly, cause it is always blue white.

How many of these guys have even qualified for a pro tour?

Bleh...
When's the last time white had card draw like blue?


What? Why would White get card draw like Blue? Ever heard of the colour pie?

Show
Though admittedly, Blue getting the best cheap aggressive creatures IS breaking the colour pie. Doesn't mean it's ok though.


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192884403 wrote:
surely one can't say complex conditional passive language is bad grammar ?
First, online players are generally terrible. Why would WOTC use that as an example? Second, there is something wrong when pretty much every top 8 has 4+ delver decks. Let's look at some last major events : SCG Indy invitational 10 in top 16, SCG Worcester open 9 of top 16, SCG Nashville 9 of 16 including spots 1-6, TCG: According to http://magic.tcgplayer.com/standard_deck_hq.asp delver (including what they call mage blade) take a whopping 320 spots of the recent top 8s. That's a problem.
^ I agree completely
Seriously dissappinted by the lack of modern unbannings. Neither jace nor valakut would be format warping, and give us back either ponder or preordain not both.
Agree with ericksee, good call on no standard change.  While U/W Delver may be the best deck in standard it is by no means an oppresive deck, as the article states U/W Delver has pretty much a split even win percentage its just that most pros gravitate towards blue as a color in general so even if its tied lets say with r/g ramp in standard (not saying it is) for the best deck u/w would still put up more wins cause more high level magic players will choose it.  I never feel total defeat against delver when I play against it unlike with caw blade last year and the win precentages prove it.
Seriously dissappinted by the lack of modern unbannings. Neither jace nor valakut would be format warping, and give us back either ponder or preordain not both.

I am not even a blue mage and I agree with this.
Fenix, don't forget blue is getting a 1 drop 5/5 flyer in M13.  Apparently Blue is becoming the new color for aggressive beatdown.

Maybe they'll hand red counterspells to compensate for the theft of good aggro.

And another thumbs up for the Guests post.  Delver's in Top 8 is out of control.  I don't care about overall win percentage.  Over-represented decks always have decent looking overall win percentages.  It's tournament wins and Top 8's that matter most, and Delver is currently more than 50% of those spots right now.  I have a feeling because it's so darned easy to play.  Anyone who thinks otherwise should try playing pod or Solar Flare and just try and argue their decisions are easier.  Ain't gonna happen.  Only deck easier to play than Delver right now is WR humans, and it's meant to be that easy.
they banned two cards from caw-blade last year and those cards weren't even in the name of the deck.
delver is the deck to beat and is undeniably good, but unlike caw-blade it DOES NOT prevent you from playing other decks and winning. it's tough but not impossible. and honestly, is delver anywhere NEAR as bad as caw-blade?
I think everyone is sick of blue having so much card manipulation while other colors get nothing compareable. When's the last time white had card draw like blue? Honestly, their design teams need to be rethinking their philosophies on card design and relative powers between colors.


Oh god, please tell me this was sarcasm. Please.
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57817638 wrote:
I like storm crow because I really like crows in real life, as an animal, and the card isn't terribly stupid, but packs a good deal of nostalgia and also a chunck of the game's history. So it's perhaps one of the cards I have most affection to, but not because "lol storm crow is bad hurr hurr durr".
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Quotes
56747598 wrote:
57295478 wrote:
Although I do assume you deliberately refer to them (DCI) as The Grand Imperial Convocation of Evil just for the purposes of making them sound like an ancient and terrible conspiracy.
Now, now. 1994 doesn't quite qualify as "ancient".
56734518 wrote:
Oh, it's a brilliant plan. You see, Bolas was travelling through shadowmoor, causing trouble, when he saw a Wickerbough Elder with its stylin' dead scarecrow hat. Now, Bolas being Bolas took the awesome hat and he put it on his head, but even with all his titanic powers of magic he couldn't make it fit. He grabbed some more scarecrows, but then a little kithkin girl asked if he was trying to build a toupee. "BY ALL THE POWERS IN THE MULTIVERSE!" he roared, "I WILL HAVE A HAT WORTHY OF MY GLORY." and so he went through his Dark Lore of Doom (tm) looking for something he could make into a hat that would look as stylish on him as a scarecrow does on a treefolk. He thought about the Phyrexians, but they were covered in goopy oil that would make his nonexistant hair greasy. He Tried out angels for a while but they didn't sit quite right. Then, he looked under "e" (because in the Elder Draconic alphabet, "e" for Eldrazi is right next to "h" for Hat) in his Dark Lore of Doom and saw depictions of the Eldrazi, and all their forms. "THIS SHALL BE MY HAT!" he declared, poking a picture of Emrakul, "AND WITH IT I WILL USHER IN A NEW AGE OF DARKNESS -- ER, I MEAN A NEW AGE OF FASHION!" And so Nicol Bolas masterminded the release of the Eldrazi.
57864098 wrote:
Rhox War Monk just flips pancakes, and if games have told us anything, it's that food = life.
56747598 wrote:
76973988 wrote:
This thread has gotten creepy. XP
Really? Really? The last couple days have been roughly every perverse fetish imaginable, but it only got "creepy" when speculation on Mother of Runes's mob affiliation came up?
76672808 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
57531048 wrote:
Nice mana base. Not really.
Yeah, really. If my deck was going to cost $1000+, I'd at least make it good.
99812049 wrote:
I like to think up what I consider clever names for my decks, only later to be laughed at by my wife. It kills me a little on the inside, but thats what marriage is about.
56816728 wrote:
56854588 wrote:
Of course, the best use [of tolaria west] is transmuting for the real Tolaria. ;)
Absolutely. I used to loose to my buddy's Banding deck for ages, it was then that I found out about Tolaria, and I was finally able win my first game.
70246459 wrote:
WOAH wait wait wait
56957928 wrote:
You know, being shallow and jusdgmental aside, "I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
"I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates
56957928 wrote:
OH MY GOD
109874309 wrote:
The only way I'd cast this card is into a bonfire.
82032421 wrote:
The short answer is that there's no rule barring annoying people from posting, but there a rule barring us from harassing them about it.
56747598 wrote:
Browbeat is a card that is an appropriate deck choice when there's no better idea available. "No better idea available" was pretty much the running theme of Odyssey era.
56874518 wrote:
Or perhaps it was a more straightforward comment indicating a wish for you to be bitten (Perhaps repeatedly) by a small yet highly venomous arachnid.
70246459 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
You're an idiot, and I'm in no mood for silliness.
57817638 wrote:
57145078 wrote:
You just... Vektor it.
That's the answer to everything.
70246459 wrote:
58347268 wrote:
I think the problem is that you don't exist.
This would sound great out of context!
56965458 wrote:
Modern is like playing a new tournament every time : you build a deck, you win with it, don't bother keeping it. Just build another, its key pieces will get banned.
57864098 wrote:
57309598 wrote:
I specifically remember posting a thread when I was just a witty bitty noob.
You make it sound like that's still not the case.
58325628 wrote:
Rap is what happens when the c from crap is taken away.
Doug Beyer:
But sometimes it's also challenging. Because sometimes OH MY GOD, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING?
141434757 wrote:
Flashforward five thousand years (Click for atmosphere) :
57927608 wrote:
to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum, Vektor finds a way.
58347268 wrote:
when in rome **** AND PILLAGE
143229641 wrote:
I always find it helpful when im angry to dress up in an owl costume and rub pennies all over my body in front of a full body mirror next to the window.
Dymecoar:
Playing Magic without Blue is like sleeping without any sheets or blankets. You can do it...but why?
Omega137:
Me: "I love the moment when a control deck stabilizes. It feels so... right." Omega137: "I like the life drop part until you get there, it's the MtG variant of bungee jumping"
Zigeif777:
Just do it like Yu-Gi-Oh or monkeys: throw all the crap you got at them and hope it works or else the by-standers (or opponents) just get dirty and pissed.
57471038 wrote:
58258708 wrote:
It's true that Alpha and Beta didn't contain any cards like Tarmogoyf, Darksteel Colossus, or Platinum Angel. It just contained weak, insignificant cards like Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, and Time Walk.
Normally it's difficult to pick up on your jokes/sarcasm. But this one's pretty much out there. Good progress. You have moved up to Humanoid. You'll be Human in no time.
91893448 wrote:
94618431 wrote:
I didn't know Samurai were known to be able to cut down whole armies...
They can when they're using lightsabers!
57129358 wrote:
97980259 wrote:
My wife brought home a baby black squirrel they found on a horse track and cared for it for a few days. We named it Grixis, but it died.
Unearth it!
70246459 wrote:
[/spoiler] And I'm on Magic Arcana. How about you? Oh, by the way, I'm also on From the Lab now. Twice, actually. And now with my own submited decklist!
When's the last time white had card draw like blue?


What? Why would White get card draw like Blue? Ever heard of the colour pie?

Show
Though admittedly, Blue getting the best cheap aggressive creatures IS breaking the colour pie. Doesn't mean it's ok though.






Blue always had aggressive creatures.
Seriously dissappinted by the lack of modern unbannings. Neither jace nor valakut would be format warping, and give us back either ponder or preordain not both.




Jace would make it that much more expensive of a format, since now every deck qould require you to run the Mind Sculptor. Valakut would make every other game Scapeshift/Valakut, or the ilk, The format can dow woithout those two, because it makes it intresting.


Also Delver is extremely overrated. I don't think I ever actually lost to a delver deck, but thats jsut me though. 
On a non-standard note, why are griselbrand and sundering titan banned in the online ban list for commander(EDH) and not the paper one?
They are. They were just added

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71235715 wrote:


The Fedora, Free!

Fenix, don't forget blue is getting a 1 drop 5/5 flyer in M13.  Apparently Blue is becoming the new color for aggressive beatdown.


LOL...  that is not an aggressive creature.
I agree with this.  Delver is annoying, but I don't think it's as bad as people say.
right call
i dropped 80 on scm and 80 on gost
thankx wotc
you have my loyalty 



who cares ahow mjuch money you dropped?  i bought four snapcasters myself and would rather see it banned than play against more delver decks
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
What the (expletive) is the DCI thinking!?!

Delver has ruled the format for months. Screw it. I have 4 Geist of St. Taft... Time to play Delver like every other *good* player.

When is WotC going to realize that one deck archetype dominating the format is BAD for the effing format?
The dci does not ban if it dominating, which it clearly is. They ban if people stop player. Lots of people must love playing delver or losing to delver. I personally have enough delver playing legacy.
Seriously dissappinted by the lack of modern unbannings. Neither jace nor valakut would be format warping, and give us back either ponder or preordain not both.


i agree with this. i am curious as to how jace would do in modern, as he might make control actually viable. as for valakut, i think scapeshift will be a problem, but i think banning the more narrow card (scapeshift) is better.
Delver may be the "deck to beat" but there are plenty of decks that can beat it: Solar Flare and R/G Aggro decks all have a strong MU against Delver, what are people moaning about?  I'm running a homebrew G/W aggro that has a favorable MU against Delver.
I'm shocked that nobody is talking about Land Tax here. IT'S LAND TAX.

(at)MrEnglish22

M13 has nothing that beats Delver so far. Will it be like when Great Sable Stag and Volcanic Fallout put a stop to Faeries? Oh...wait...that didn't happen.

WOTC continues to make overpowered UW cards, they have dominated Standard for years.

The message here is if you want to play in a high-level event or even an fnm with a competitive metagame, play whatever UW deck WOTC has given you this year, play it all the time, and tune it for the mirror, cause you'll be playing it alot.


It would benefit the design team to go play in a couple of serious events, they obviously continue to read what the metagame is going to be incorrectly, cause it is always blue white.

How many of these guys have even qualified for a pro tour?

Bleh...



The Dungrove Elder deck is REALLY good against delver, and now it gets RANCOR. Thragtusk laughs at vapor snag and is an easy splash for a lot of decks. Vampire Nighthawk is ok versus Delver, not great. Once Dungrove rotates, all of the good instants and sorceries Delver used rotate as well. And its the development team that decides power level, not design.

I'm not saying you are neccessarily wrong, but what were you expecting? A 1 mana spell with "destroy all spirits, angels, and and insects"?

 

What the (expletive) is the DCI thinking!?! Delver has ruled the format for months. Screw it. I have 4 Geist of St. Taft... Time to play Delver like every other *good* player. When is WotC going to realize that one deck archetype dominating the format is BAD for the effing format?


There are viable decks that beat delver and Delver doesn't dominate nearly as much as degenerate decks of the past (like Affinity) did. If Delver bothers you, build a deck that has a good matchup against it.


Land Tax unban is nice. I don't think it'll see almost any play, but it's good to make the ban list shorter.
Finally Land Tax got unbanned. It should ahve been unbanned years ago.
True post count: 9,900 Thanks Wotc for not counting archived posts. If I post without capital letters than means I'm posting from my phone. For some reason it hates typing capital letters. Go_Texans on MTGO. Texans 12-4 Wildcard: W Texans 19 Bengals 13 Divisional: L Texans 28 Patriots 41 Another awesome season!
There are viable decks that beat delver and Delver doesn't dominate nearly as much as degenerate decks of the past (like Affinity) did. If Delver bothers you, build a deck that has a good matchup against it.



This, exactly. If 1/2 the players at a tournament are playing Delver then it's not very surprising that it takes up 1/2 of the top 8. That's simple math. Instead of just net decking a Delver deck like everyone else, anticipate the meta game and play one of the decks (and there are several) that has a good match-up against Delver. You then have a significant advantage over the rest of the field at a tournament.

Personally, I'm glad that the DCI used a reasoned approach here (looking at win% of the deck for example) instead of just overreacting to the hype and tossing out bannings. As long as so many people play like sheep I'll gladly keep taking the advantage of playing against the crowds who are under some delusion that their Delver deck is unbeatable.
"Magic 2013 has tools for non-Delver decks"

Right, and Ajani doesn't fit perfectly into Delver and make the utterly retarded, color-pie-shattering Geist of Saint Traft impossible to kill with Whipflare. Every set that's been printed since the horribly broken trio (Snapcaster, Delver and Geist, if I really need to spell it out) has buffed Delver when you guys somehow thought it'd weaken the deck.

Standard has been horrendously boring to play since Scars of Mirrodin for the exact same reason through both of the last blocks: the top deck has been a UW aggro deck that effortlessly crushes most of the field, and not through potent and interesting card synergies but simply via a few ridiculously overpowered cards that make it a blatantly obvious, autopilotable, self-building deck.

But of course if Wizards is using attendance and frickin' MTGO to judge the balance of a deck then they'll continue to be totally blind. Obviously Delver wouldn't turn people away from Standard quite as much as Caw-Blade despite it possibly being even more dominant than its predecessor: the difference is that Delver is a common and Snapcaster a rare, each far easier to acquire than the necessary team of Jace and Stoneforge and Batterskull when building Caw. How is this not evident?
I usually read all posts even if they start in a a waythat it's obvious they have no clue what's going on, but when i got to this part of this post:
Obviously Delver wouldn't turn people away from Standard quite as much as Caw-Blade despite it possibly being even more dominant than its predecessor


I just stopped reading.

IMAGE(http://i1.minus.com/jbcBXM4z66fMtK.jpg)

192884403 wrote:
surely one can't say complex conditional passive language is bad grammar ?
I usually read all posts even if they start in a a waythat it's obvious they have no clue what's going on, but when i got to this part of this post:
Obviously Delver wouldn't turn people away from Standard quite as much as Caw-Blade despite it possibly being even more dominant than its predecessor


I just stopped reading.




You got farther than me; I stopped when he claimed that Delver was an autopilot deck.

In terms of the number of decks in its field that Delver smashes, relative to the number that Caw-Blade did, that's a perfectly valid statement. People forget that one of the major issues with Caw-Blade rather than the deck itself was the fact that most other decks in the field were taken out of tourneys early by Valakut, a stronger second-tier contender than the current equivalent of Wolf Run Ramp.

And yeah, UW Delver really takes no thought to pilot. The inferior Esper version has some decision-making, certainly.
It's tournament wins and Top 8's that matter most, and Delver is currently more than 50% of those spots right now.  I have a feeling because it's so darned easy to play.

Obviously Delver wouldn't turn people away from Standard quite as much as Caw-Blade despite it possibly being even more dominant than its predecessor

These are blatantly false. If you're not gonna do your homework, please don't make up numbers nor talk hype in order to support what is obviously just your opinion.

I did the homework. I'd link to my articles, but they are in spanish for a spanish website, so I'll only link resources (already made, I'm not about to whip up another graph just for you.)

This is the event list used for these specific calculations (I'll probably run an update by the end of the week.) It starts at May the 10th, ends at June the 7th.

This "Circle Packing" diagram shows the overal estate of the format defined by all those events (made with the awesomely flash-free protovis.) Please don't get fixated on the order of the circles. Their sizes are proportional to the metagame percentage, but the 'superarchetypes' throw that off. I added the actual % to the tooltips, leave the cursor on each circle for a second to see them.

So, UW Delver variants are 25% of the known metagame (reported top Xs on that event list I gave.) Then RG Aggro and RG Ramp Wolf Run are each ~12%. From that it drops to ~3% or less. At the height of its reign, just before the bannings, do you know what % Caw Blade was? Look at it.

43%!! Delver has nothing on Caw Blade on sheer top X presence. By the way, notice how not even Caw Blade had 50% presence across the board. There are always outliers.

That was overal. How did Delve do weekly?


Click it for bigger version

'Week 10' is May-10 to May-16. 'Week 13' is May-31 to June-6. The cutoff to be lumped in with Other was 3.5%. Esper Control stopped being relevant by May-17 to May-23. UW Delver variants grew to a dangerous ~35% level. Caw Blade was 40%+ week after week. This is its last week, with 2.5% cutoff, if I remember correctly (yes, the graphs are different.)

I did the Delver numbers for the June-7 to June-13 'week' but didn't publish them. It kept being 35% and only RG Aggro and RG Ramp Wolf Run were over the 3.5% cutoff. Dangerously close to Caw Blade, but as WoTC said in the B&R announcement, tournament attendance didn't go down. It did with Caw Blade. Caw Blade dominated many weeks. For the moment, Delver is not as consistent.

To me the worst thing about Delver is not 'dominance.' This is the overal Standard format by the end of March. UW Delver has still almost double the piece of the pie that the next tiers, but there are at least five other big enough archetypes, depending on when you stop counting. The printing of Restoration Angel helped Delver shrink the format by a factor of like, 2.

However! I have been doing this to formats for some years, and the typical Standard I have seen actually looks more like the post-AVR one, even if the percentage gaps are more abrupt. The pre Restoration Angel Standard was actually an anomaly, a tier structure similar to the one of a bigger format like old Extended (or Modern.)

As an aside, I also remember that the old Extended with the Dark Depths/Thopter Foundry combo deck looked like a Standard format. That deck narrowed that format so much that it looked like it had one third of the card pool.

@Delver is easy to pilot: If it were so easy to pilot, it would not have an almost 50% win rate against other decks. It would not matter if a ton of people play it, it would win by itself. But it doesn't.

Player matters means skill matters.
I usually read all posts even if they start in a a waythat it's obvious they have no clue what's going on, but when i got to this part of this post:
Obviously Delver wouldn't turn people away from Standard quite as much as Caw-Blade despite it possibly being even more dominant than its predecessor


I just stopped reading.



Made it way farther than me, the part I don't think people are looking @ when they say the tools to beat delver aren't in m13 is the fact that Ponder  and Mana Leak are going away as well as Vapor Snag, Gitaxian Probe, and Swords.  As a delver pilot from the days of illusions who's topped many a tourney with it moreso than any "answer card" this will be the coup de gras of delver unless we see another great deck manipulation card.  There's a reason there isn't a successful block delver deck even with access to snap/geist/delver/stalker/thoughtscour/pike etc.
I think the main reason a lot of people are upset with Delver isn't that it's hard to beat, or that it's expensive to build, or any of that. I think it's because they're sick of playing against it constantly. Sick of occasionally getting stuck playing seven Delver decks in a row. Sick of reading tournament reports where the writer has clearly run out of things to say about the deck after the third copy of it in the Top 8.

Sure, it's not unbeatable (or at least, not a deck whose best counter-deck is itself like Caw-Blade) and it's not the only deck you can play. But so many people are playing it, that it can sometimes feel like there's absolutely no variety in the meta.

The DCI can look at win percentages all they want, but what annoys people is the deck's saturation in the meta.

Of course, until player numbers start dropping, they shouldn't ban anything. Their job isn't to make a varied meta, or to help people beat the best deck by weakening it; their job is to make sure people are enjoying the game. As long as they're still getting high turn-outs, they're succeeding at that job.

I just hope they realize that, if turnout starts dropping, it won't be because the deck is unbeatable, so their precious 'just under 51%' statistic won't mean a thing; it will be because you can only play against the same deck so many times before it's just not fun enough to bother showing up to play any more.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/c6f9e416e5e0e1f0a1e5c42b0c7b3e88.jpg?v=90000)
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