Bounded Accuracy in 4e

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I am really into the Idea of Bounded accuracy in 5th editions, and am wundering if anybody has found a good way to house rule it into 4th edition...at least as far as skill checks go.   and if nobody has yet maybe they can give me some advice on how I may go about it anyway. =) thanks
1. Remove all 1/2 level bonus to skills.

2. Create a DC chart for how hard you think tasks should be.  At the low end of the chart, have the DCs near the Easy DC for first level.  Near the middle, have them near the Hard DCs for first level.  Leave space for extra hard stuff that they probably won't be able to do at first level,  but will be able to do later with higher ability scores and/or items that grant bonuses.

3. Playtest with your group. 

That should get you on the right track. 
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
how very simple ^_^ thnks.   Just one f those things that bugs me about 4th edition which until hearing about bounded accuracy never thought about fixing =P



Oh!  do you think I could do some of the same thing with monsters and there defenses? like  taking away 1/2 lv bonus for attack roles and fixing alot of the defenses for monsters and the like?   or would that make things odd?   
Oh, monsters are even easier.  Take away half level bonus to initiative, attacks and defenses from players.  Reduce the same stats on monsters by 1/2 the players' levels(or half the monster's own level, if you like).  That cuts half level bonuses pretty easily.  If you can single out other bonuses the PCs get, you can cut the same amount from monsters and keep things more or less even.  For example, don't give out magic items, and then cut monster attacks and defenses by 1 per 5 levels or so.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Oh, monsters are even easier.  Take away half level bonus to initiative, attacks and defenses from players.  Reduce the same stats on monsters by 1/2 the players' levels(or half the monster's own level, if you like).  That cuts half level bonuses pretty easily.  If you can single out other bonuses the PCs get, you can cut the same amount from monsters and keep things more or less even.  For example, don't give out magic items, and then cut monster attacks and defenses by 1 per 5 levels or so.




You could give magic items, just skip the enhancement bonus.


   
It bugs you that 4e characters get innately better as they level?
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
It bugs you that 4e characters get innately better as they level?


There are more ways to define "better" than with +attack and +defense bonuses.

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

Oh, monsters are even easier.  Take away half level bonus to initiative, attacks and defenses from players.  Reduce the same stats on monsters by 1/2 the players' levels(or half the monster's own level, if you like).  That cuts half level bonuses pretty easily.

Er?  Monsters go up by 1/level.  Dropping that to 1/2 level means that PCs still need to collect uber-sweet magic items and get expertise bonuses to keep up.

To create bounded-accuracy in 4th, you'd subtract the monster's level from it's defenses and to-hit rolls. (KEEP DAMAGE at MM3 levels though) and half-level (roughly) from their initiative and skills.  On the PC side, subtract half-level from PC stats, ban the expertise feats and various scaling defensive booster feats, drop some of the stat boosts (I'd suggest the 11 and 21 "all stats" boosts, but that might not go far enough), eliminate the "big 3" (you could let magic weapons give +1 to hit, and still give the normal scaling bonus to damage.  But magic armor and Neck slots shouldn't boost AC or NADs)

At that point, PCs will still scale slowly via stat boosts, feats, and PP choices, so you'll probaby want to add a bit of scaling back to monsters.  Not sure exactly how much though.  1/4 level to represent the silly stats would be about right.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

      I remain very worried that bounded accuracy will end up draining all the incentive to keep on playing.  The idea that after one more adventure you will gain a stronger magic item/level/power/feat/etc is a very efficient lure to keep the player on the treadmill.  And I can't see any benefit from this bounded accuracy, certainly not enough of one to justify the risk that the players will not consider the reward worth the work.
    Just what does justify this idea?
      I remain very worried that bounded accuracy will end up draining all the incentive to keep on playing.  The idea that after one more adventure you will gain a stronger magic item/level/power/feat/etc is a very efficient lure to keep the player on the treadmill.  And I can't see any benefit from this bounded accuracy, certainly not enough of one to justify the risk that the players will not consider the reward worth the work.
    Just what does justify this idea?


In no games that I've played have the characters been motivated to continue adventuring by the lure of gaining higher attack/defense values. They adventure because

• It's what they love to do
• They have to because the world is in danger
• They want to take vengeance on a villain that has slighted them
• They're being paid handsomely
• The villain has something they want/need
Etc.

If gaining higher attack/defense/skill bonuses is your motivation for adventuring, you're wasting your time. A PC's bonuses never outpace those of his enemies; as you continue to level up, you continue to face more powerful foes, which means you aren't actually getting more powerful, relative to the challenges you're facing. You're just "keeping up." 

Standard Answer to all 5E rules questions: "Ask your DM."

Oh, monsters are even easier.  Take away half level bonus to initiative, attacks and defenses from players.  Reduce the same stats on monsters by 1/2 the players' levels(or half the monster's own level, if you like).  That cuts half level bonuses pretty easily.

Er?  Monsters go up by 1/level.  Dropping that to 1/2 level means that PCs still need to collect uber-sweet magic items and get expertise bonuses to keep up.

To create bounded-accuracy in 4th, you'd subtract the monster's level from it's defenses and to-hit rolls. (KEEP DAMAGE at MM3 levels though) and half-level (roughly) from their initiative and skills.  On the PC side, subtract half-level from PC stats, ban the expertise feats and various scaling defensive booster feats, drop some of the stat boosts (I'd suggest the 11 and 21 "all stats" boosts, but that might not go far enough), eliminate the "big 3" (you could let magic weapons give +1 to hit, and still give the normal scaling bonus to damage.  But magic armor and Neck slots shouldn't boost AC or NADs)

At that point, PCs will still scale slowly via stat boosts, feats, and PP choices, so you'll probaby want to add a bit of scaling back to monsters.  Not sure exactly how much though.  1/4 level to represent the silly stats would be about right.



What you quoted assumes the OP doesn't take out magic items or expertise or anything but half-level bonuses.  like I went on to say, if the OP singles out a bonus the PCs get, it can be subtracted from the monsters as well.  That way if they want to leave in big ol' magic items or stat boosts, or expertise, they can.  

I just generally figured "here is how you can take it all out" would be a less useful response than "here is how you can take each piece out as you like"
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
It bugs you that 4e characters get innately better as they level?



lol, seriously. id rather burn my 4e books and never play again then use bounded accuracy in 4e for even 5 minutes.
Dropping the 1/2 level bonus would give you 90% of what you want.  (drop 1/2 level from monster's as well).

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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

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      I remain very worried that bounded accuracy will end up draining all the incentive to keep on playing.  The idea that after one more adventure you will gain a stronger magic item/level/power/feat/etc is a very efficient lure to keep the player on the treadmill.  And I can't see any benefit from this bounded accuracy, certainly not enough of one to justify the risk that the players will not consider the reward worth the work.
    Just what does justify this idea?


In no games that I've played have the characters been motivated to continue adventuring by the lure of gaining higher attack/defense values.


   We are concerned with why the players, not the characters, adventure.  We largely assign the characters what motivation we please.  But when the player gets bored with the game, player and character vanish from the game.


If gaining higher attack/defense/skill bonuses is your motivation for adventuring, you're wasting your time. A PC's bonuses never outpace those of his enemies; as you continue to level up, you continue to face more powerful foes, which means you aren't actually getting more powerful, relative to the challenges you're facing. You're just "keeping up." 


     True, but irrelevant.  The very delusion you are getting more powerful is quite sufficient.  And the delusion can be real as well.  The very fact your character is X+1 level is a bragging point. 
    The fact you think people shouldn't think this way is unimportant.  They do, and in large numbers.  And we are trying to design a game that will appeal to these people.  If we don't appeal to them, 5e will be a disaster.
Except he's not talking about Next, or even game design.  He's talking about a houserule, so it's only a matter of what his players want.  Me, I like bounded accuracy, myself.  If you can see through the illusion of advancement, it makes the entire thing just an annoyance.
      I remain very worried that bounded accuracy will end up draining all the incentive to keep on playing.  The idea that after one more adventure you will gain a stronger magic item/level/power/feat/etc is a very efficient lure to keep the player on the treadmill.  And I can't see any benefit from this bounded accuracy, certainly not enough of one to justify the risk that the players will not consider the reward worth the work.
    Just what does justify this idea?


In no games that I've played have the characters been motivated to continue adventuring by the lure of gaining higher attack/defense values.


   We are concerned with why the players, not the characters, adventure.  We largely assign the characters what motivation we please.  But when the player gets bored with the game, player and character vanish from the game.


If gaining higher attack/defense/skill bonuses is your motivation for adventuring, you're wasting your time. A PC's bonuses never outpace those of his enemies; as you continue to level up, you continue to face more powerful foes, which means you aren't actually getting more powerful, relative to the challenges you're facing. You're just "keeping up." 


     True, but irrelevant.  The very delusion you are getting more powerful is quite sufficient.  And the delusion can be real as well.  The very fact your character is X+1 level is a bragging point. 
    The fact you think people shouldn't think this way is unimportant.  They do, and in large numbers.  And we are trying to design a game that will appeal to these people.  If we don't appeal to them, 5e will be a disaster.


   Bounded Accuracy does not stop you character from getting better as he levels.  Sure you will not get that +1 to attack and defence every other level but to me those bonuses are completely pointless because everything els is getting them as well...all you are doing is keeping up, not getting better.  Now you will still be able to get cool feats when you level, unlock new powers and abilities you could not at lower levels, which to me is a FAR better reward for my efforts than a bonus to a number.    
Bounded Accuracy does not stop you character from getting better as he levels.  Sure you will not get that +1 to attack and defence every other level but to me those bonuses are completely pointless because everything els is getting them as well...all you are doing is keeping up, not getting better.


Well...no. If the DM only throws level-appropriate stuff at the PCs, I could see this treadmill effect happening, but a party of 6th-level PCs should have a very real advantage over a band of 1st- and 2nd-level kobolds. Sort of like how in various anime series the main characters just keep getting stronger and stronger in an effort to keep up with increasingly powerful new enemies. It's hard to see any progression, until the author slips in some minor reality checks that show just how far the characters have surpassed the average person in the setting.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
Bounded Accuracy does not stop you character from getting better as he levels.  Sure you will not get that +1 to attack and defence every other level but to me those bonuses are completely pointless because everything els is getting them as well...all you are doing is keeping up, not getting better.


Well...no. If the DM only throws level-appropriate stuff at the PCs, I could see this treadmill effect happening, but a party of 6th-level PCs should have a very real advantage over a band of 1st- and 2nd-level kobolds. Sort of like how in various anime series the main characters just keep getting stronger and stronger in an effort to keep up with increasingly powerful new enemies. It's hard to see any progression, until the author slips in some minor reality checks that show just how far the characters have surpassed the average person in the setting.

Exactly. And that's the whole problem with removing level-based bonuses. You CAN remove them from 4e, but be warned that the result is that the encounter building/XP system will go all to heck.

There are other effects as well. The value of buffs and debuffs will be approximately doubled. That Righteous Brand power that is kinda nice now becomes HUGE. Likewise a rogue gaining CA every round is getting a much bigger effective advantage than he was before. The ratio of automatic to situational bonuses is a part of the balance of the game.

That is not dead which may eternal lie
      I remain very worried that bounded accuracy will end up draining all the incentive to keep on playing.  The idea that after one more adventure you will gain a stronger magic item/level/power/feat/etc is a very efficient lure to keep the player on the treadmill.  And I can't see any benefit from this bounded accuracy, certainly not enough of one to justify the risk that the players will not consider the reward worth the work.
    Just what does justify this idea?

I can only speak for my own group of course, but we aren't ever excited about getting another +1 to hit/defenses upon leveling.  We simply see that as a part of the system, a way to keep characters in line with level-appropriate monsters.  So you aren't REALLY getting anything.  Sure, you get a +1 to hit, but monster defenses have all gone up by 1.  You don't FEEL any more accurate, other than having a bigger number.

The true joy of leveling is getting fancy new tricks: feats, powers, and class features.  D&D Next seems to be keeping all three of these things.  And you even say that "the idea that after one more adventure you will gain a stronger magic item/level/power/feat/etc is a very efficient lure to keep the player on the treadmill."  None of this at all relates to a +1 bonus to hit/defenses that simply allows the PC to scale with the monsters.

With bounded accuracy, the main advantage is that things stay within the same frame of reference, with HP being the main thing that separates a weak creature from a strong one.  With bounded accuracy, if the PCs encounter a monster with an AC of 20, they know it is something hard to hit.  If they find a sword that gives a +1 bonus to hit, they really value it, because it is actually giving a +1 bonus to hit (rather than simply keeping you in line with monster defenses).

Oh, monsters are even easier.  Take away half level bonus to initiative, attacks and defenses from players.  Reduce the same stats on monsters by 1/2 the players' levels(or half the monster's own level, if you like).  That cuts half level bonuses pretty easily.

Er?  Monsters go up by 1/level.  Dropping that to 1/2 level means that PCs still need to collect uber-sweet magic items and get expertise bonuses to keep up.

To create bounded-accuracy in 4th, you'd subtract the monster's level from it's defenses and to-hit rolls. (KEEP DAMAGE at MM3 levels though) and half-level (roughly) from their initiative and skills.  On the PC side, subtract half-level from PC stats, ban the expertise feats and various scaling defensive booster feats, drop some of the stat boosts (I'd suggest the 11 and 21 "all stats" boosts, but that might not go far enough), eliminate the "big 3" (you could let magic weapons give +1 to hit, and still give the normal scaling bonus to damage.  But magic armor and Neck slots shouldn't boost AC or NADs)

At that point, PCs will still scale slowly via stat boosts, feats, and PP choices, so you'll probaby want to add a bit of scaling back to monsters.  Not sure exactly how much though.  1/4 level to represent the silly stats would be about right.




You'd also have to make an across the board -1/-2/-3 to monster defenses, to compensate for expertise being gone, as well as a similar attack reduction to compensate for improved defenses being gone.

There are really two aspects to this, if you really want to implement it.  One is to fix the inherent problem that resulted in feat taxes: the discrepancy in scaling between PCs and monsters, both on attack and defense.  Feat bonuses to attack and defense, monster attacks and defense, masterwork bonuses, enhancement bonuses to attack and defense, all need to go.  Then you can do something about the half-level bonus.  If you miss any pieces, the entire endeavor fails at its goals.

It's not a simple undertaking.  You would have to be quite meticulous at excising basically everything that affects attack and defense in the entire game, and then rebalance the monster attack and defense formulas accordingly.

It'd be far simpler to just write a new attack system from scratch.  It'd be effectively what you're doing anyway, and would probably be a lot less messy.

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

It'd be far simpler to just write a new attack system from scratch.  It'd be effectively what you're doing anyway, and would probably be a lot less messy.


As it happens, I'm in the process of creating a heavily modified version of 4e and I've been working on the attack/defense scaling tonight.  I'm not finding it too bad, as the relatively clean structure and exposed maths of 4e's mechanics make it easy-ish to judge the impact of changes.  Any situational bonuses (the +2 for CA for example, or +1 from Bless) are built on top of the core scaling, so you can pretty much ignore them.

I'm working towards replacing the +29 total bonus from 1-30 that 4e is built on, with a +10 bonus; so it's a flattening of the scaling, not a complete removal.  From a realism/simulation perspective, a 30th level fighter should have a better chance at getting past the defenses of a L1 goblin than she did at 1st level IMO.  Having a flatter curve will allow me to have a L1-L5 campaign arc that features a goblin threat (for example), and still be throwing the same goblin grunts at them across those 5 levels without them getting too easy to hit/defend against.

The +10 to attack is currently composed of:
+3 from magic item bonuses (or inherent bonuses)
+1 from ability score increases (less ability score bonuses available as they level)
+6 from base attack increases

...and +10 to AC:
+3 from magic item bonuses (or inherent bonuses)
+1 from masterwork armour (just the one grade and for heavy armour only) or ability score increases
+6 from base defense increases

...and +10 to NADs:
+1 from ability score increases
+3 from scaling feats*
+6 from base defense increases

Monsters will add level/3 to their base L1 defenses and attacks.

* "Feat tax" being the lesser of two evils here when compared with the option of "magic item tax" for NADs.  I actually find the feat choices for NADs somewhat interesting in 4e (do you just spend one feat for the +1/tier to all NADs, or do you go for the +2/3/4 to one NAD at a time?  Do you focus on building up your stronger defenses and pick up the extra benefits of the 'superior' feats).  Making sure that all of the PCs have a level-appropriate magic weapon and magic armour is fun for me as a DM and something that I've been doing since 1e.  Keeping up with neck slot items in 4e has been the bit that felt like drudgery for me at least.  YMMV...

As a final note, I'm 'smoothing' the bonus scaling, so that bonuses come at more even intervals than in 4e.  You had some points where there could be a +4 jump in one level, with the resulting multi-level plateau at other points.

   Bounded Accuracy does not stop you character from getting better as he levels.  Sure you will not get that +1 to attack and defence every other level but to me 



    Stop right there.  You are just one player out of, oh, say a million.  And we are trying to sell to that million, not to just you.  Your opinion is nothing unless we find the other players have the same opinion.
    And our evidence is that they don't.  An extra 100 XP is deemed a reward, which makes no sense if the player thinks of the game as the treadmill it is.  Rather, they are thinking, "I am higher level.  Thus I am a stud."


 those bonuses are completely pointless because everything els is getting them as well...all you are doing is keeping up, not getting better.  Now you will still be able to get cool feats when you level, unlock new powers and abilities you could not at lower levels, which to me is a FAR better reward for my efforts than a bonus to a number.    


    And we have the same treadmill here too.  You get new feats and powers?  So does the monster.   You say the game is better when you have 5 feats rather than 4?  So why not start out with 5?  You are still talking about a meaningless "reward" that has no purpose other than to make the player feel rewarded whether he was or not.

      And since we have that "reward" system, and it has been very successful [being adopted by just about all other games for one thing], we should be very wary about adopting limits on those "rewards".
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