This morning's challenge...

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Here is the challenge that I propose to the optimization community:

Design a 30th level psion, including feats and gear using the following parameters:
1.  This psion must wear leather armor
2.  This psion cannot be a multi-classed / hybrid character
3.  This psion must focus all of its attacks at range
4.  This psion must be an eladrin by race

The ultimate goal here is to create a psion that is armed like a rogue, and uses powers optimized for damage like a wizard.

Good luck (You're gonna need it   )

So, you want us to build your character for you.

Why should we do that, again?
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.

1.  This psion must wear leather armor


Easy, just take proficiency instead of Unarmored Agility. 

2.  This psion cannot be a multi-classed / hybrid character


Ok. 

3.  This psion must focus all of its attacks at range


Seeing as there are few to no psion melee attacks... done. 

4.  This psion must be an eladrin by race


Ok. 

The challenging part is actually hidden in your remark about that it has to have powers "optimized for damage like a wizard". That means you want a blaster. I've explored that possibility a little in an earlier thread.
Thanks for asking us to build your character for you.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I can't decide whether I prefer threads where the OP tries to get us to do his work by calling it a "challenge" or the ones where the OP presents a suboptimal build with a name like "Lord Bloodmore, the DPS King!!11!" and then proceeds to brag.
Yeah... it seems the ideal character post in these forums would be one built by a char-op expert who already knows what he's doing and just wants to bounce off a couple ideas.  Understandably "do it for me" posts aren't favorable, nor are "check out my awesome guy!" who isn't quite so awesome.  But then you have another type where a person posts their humble character idea, intentions, and request for critique which still somehow gets met with scorn.
But then you have another type where a person posts their humble character idea, intentions, and request for critique which still somehow gets met with scorn.

That never actually happens. People who post a real character and ask for a critique are often told they should change enormous parts of their character because the made bad decisions and they usually don't react well to that. That is when the scorn starts.
Yeah... it seems the ideal character post in these forums would be one built by a char-op expert who already knows what he's doing and just wants to bounce off a couple ideas.  Understandably "do it for me" posts aren't favorable, nor are "check out my awesome guy!" who isn't quite so awesome.  But then you have another type where a person posts their humble character idea, intentions, and request for critique which still somehow gets met with scorn.



This wasnt an idea, it was build me a Psion. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
As a comparison, I was quite pleased with the results of my Ground and Pound thread.  There were a lot of perspectives I hadn't thought of, and they really helped me refine my choices.  But I had done my homework beforehand, not just asking people to do it for me.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Put up a first draft and we'll talk. Until then, build your own character.
Put up a first draft and we'll talk. Until then, build your own character.



Aka, put up or shut up.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
It really isn't that hard to build a straight class.  Read the handbook, take the gold/sky blue options for powers/feats/equipment/PP.  It's when you start getting into the MC and hybrid options whne you have 3 classes worth of material to find a synergy with.
It really isn't that hard to build a straight class.  Read the handbook, take the gold/sky blue options for powers/feats/equipment/PP.  It's when you start getting into the MC and hybrid options whne you have 3 classes worth of material to find a synergy with.



The Psion handbook is pretty awful and in any case horrendously out of date. We've needed a new one since forever and I keep hoping someone will rise to the challenge.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Also it's in the wiki format! (or maybe I'm the only one who doesn't like that?)
Heya everyone, here are my homebrew threads: (yes there is only one right now, but there are more to come!) And Let There Be Fish-Men: KUO-TOA
Still, its not bad enough to not put in ANY work.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I'm half tempted to build an awful Psion that takes Linguist 4 times just for giggles.
I'm half tempted to build an awful Psion that takes Linguist 4 times just for giggles.



Congrats?
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Hey, he could then take Traveler's Insight and be a Shardmind or Kalashtar to be a super-insightful mind reading telepath.
A Beginners Primer to CharOp. Archmage's Ascension - The Wizard's Handbook. Let the Hammer Fall: Dwarf Warpriest/Tactical Warpriest/Indomitable Champion, a Defending Leader. Requiem for Dissent: Cleric/Fighter/Paragon of Victory Melee Leader Ko te manu e kai i te miro, nona te ngahere. Ko te manu e kai i te matauranga e, nano te ao katoa. It's the proliferation of people who think the rules are more important than what the rules are meant to accomplish. - Dedekine
Hey, he could then take Traveler's Insight and be a Shardmind or Kalashtar to be a super-insightful mind reading telepath.



I know your secrets. I can't do anything about them, but I know them
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
It really isn't that hard to build a straight class.  Read the handbook, take the gold/sky blue options for powers/feats/equipment/PP.  It's when you start getting into the MC and hybrid options whne you have 3 classes worth of material to find a synergy with.



The Psion handbook is pretty awful and in any case horrendously out of date. We've needed a new one since forever and I keep hoping someone will rise to the challenge.


Although my SM isn't that high, I like the class and have been considering writing a handbook for some time now. I woouldn't be done in quite a while, but how would Char Op feel about this?
Yeah... it seems the ideal character post in these forums would be one built by a char-op expert who already knows what he's doing and just wants to bounce off a couple ideas.  Understandably "do it for me" posts aren't favorable, nor are "check out my awesome guy!" who isn't quite so awesome.  But then you have another type where a person posts their humble character idea, intentions, and request for critique which still somehow gets met with scorn.

You have the right idea on this.

If you "Challenge"CharOP to build a character for you, you will be met with scorn, and deservedly so.

That being said, I see posters requesting honest feedback who still get treated poorly.  The problem is that there are very few people on CharOP who know how to give a critique that is not only honest, but also respectful and constructive.

That's why it is so great to have LDB back on the boards.  He has a wealth of knowledge and equal amounts of tact and willingness to help.

If only everyone on CharOP posted in the same manner...
Yeah, I've been on the receiving end of those not-really-helpful comments to the point I just stopped posting quirky build ideas up here.  I think the last attempt was noticing a certain leader-controller combo could get access to a scaling damage boost and making the mistake of calling the builds damage boosts and off action attacks a striker proxy.  Instead of helping, most comments seemed to boil down to "do all the research your self and put up the final dpr numbers to prove the build's worth to us".  I did get the build up to decent striker numbers eventually, but by that point I was so tired of defending my desire to optimize a quirky concept that I just didn't bother putting up the final results.
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
Yeah, I've been on the receiving end of those not-really-helpful comments to the point I just stopped posting quirky build ideas up here.  I think the last attempt was noticing a certain leader-controller combo could get access to a scaling damage boost and making the mistake of calling the builds damage boosts and off action attacks a striker proxy.  Instead of helping, most comments seemed to boil down to "do all the research your self and put up the final dpr numbers to prove the build's worth to us".  I did get the build up to decent striker numbers eventually, but by that point I was so tired of defending my desire to optimize a quirky concept that I just didn't bother putting up the final results.




What are you talking about? People agreed it was a good build just not great because it was just a cute trick. It wasn't going to do anything compared to a striker in terms of nova. Especially since you could just make him a charger and do more damage, easier and more flexible. 

The burden of proof is on the build supplier. It is rather easy to calculate DPR, which you failed to do so. If you aren't willing to put in some basic effort to support your claims why should anyone bother taking it seriously. 
The burden of proof is on the build supplier. It is rather easy to calculate DPR, which you failed to do so.



I did so in the first post and again on page 3.  Feel free to double check that if you like (community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...).  My initial estimates wear more conservative as I wanted to see how it did without being highly item dependant.

Especially since you could just make him a charger and do more damage, easier and more flexible.



This is honestly the type of comment that lead me to stop posting.  It's real easy to read this as "if you can't make something as good as the best supported option in the game, don't bother posting".  Since I like doing odd ball builds and really don't have any new insights on the heavily trod builds like chargers, hence no posting.

People agreed it was a good build just not great because it was just a cute trick. It wasn't going to do anything compared to a striker in terms of nova.



Looking back through it, there were some supportive voices.  It's just really easy to get burned by the "charger or bust" comments.  Rereading did make me feel better about the whole afair, but I'm still unlikely to through any more odd ball ideas this way.
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
The burden of proof is on the build supplier. It is rather easy to calculate DPR, which you failed to do so.



I did so in the first post and again on page 3.  Feel free to double check that if you like (community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...).  My initial estimates wear more conservative as I wanted to see how it did without being highly item dependant.



That is not calculating DPR. You did a 5 round average assuming hits. Look at a LDB build where he calculates the DPR and Nova potential. 5 round simulation is rather pointless in TheOP. 



This is honestly the type of comment that lead me to stop posting.  It's real easy to read this as "if you can't make something as good as the best supported option in the game, don't bother posting".  Since I like doing odd ball builds and really don't have any new insights on the heavily trod builds like chargers, hence no posting.



So since people pointed out it was a neat trick but nothing ground breaking because it doesn't change the meta you pout your pants off? What did you want? knob slobbering by Mike Mearls himself? It is a neat trick, that is about it. Congrats and move on. If it was a char you wanted to play most people said it would work well. If what you were aiming for was some sort of plateau in Theorhetical OP...it is a bit short because as a leader it is lacking, as a controller it is lacking and as a striker it is lacking. 

Your thread accomplished what you stated supposedly (a passible striker in a normal game) yet you whine like someone spilled your milk. Why? 


Looking back through it, there were some supportive voices.  It's just really easy to get burned by the "charger or bust" comments.  Rereading did make me feel better about the whole afair, but I'm still unlikely to through any more odd ball ideas this way.



It isn't a big loss if you are going to whine when people offer contrary positions....this is a forum not a stand for you to give a speech and for us to applaud. 

The point of the thread was partly to share a cool trick and partly to figure out how to make it better.  The thing is I spent 2 pages defending wanting to optimize around restrictions and only got any actual suggestions by the 3rd page.  My complaint is largely that going to char op asking "how do I make this better" resulted in a lot of "do something else".

Honestly, the thread was probably just a kick off poiny.  I think the long and short of it that a few tricks seem to be dominating the landscape, which is a shame considering my favorite part of char op is seeing crazy builds.

In any case, I'd rather not get into a "this is not helpful" / "whiner" argument with Tektonik.  I do agree the OP of this thread really didn't give us much to work with beside making a high dpr psion.

Actually, come to think of it, they should probably just pick one of the psion's ranged at will that counts as an RBA and add on all the standard basic attack boosters, maybe throw in a striker or seeker multiclass for some nova damage.
Interested in a rambling collection of game ideas? Check out Schemes of the Dancing Chimera.
At which point you should just refluff a ranger as arcane...
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
The burden of proof is on the build supplier. It is rather easy to calculate DPR, which you failed to do so.



I did so in the first post and again on page 3.  Feel free to double check that if you like (community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...).  My initial estimates wear more conservative as I wanted to see how it did without being highly item dependant.

Especially since you could just make him a charger and do more damage, easier and more flexible.



This is honestly the type of comment that lead me to stop posting.  It's real easy to read this as "if you can't make something as good as the best supported option in the game, don't bother posting".  Since I like doing odd ball builds and really don't have any new insights on the heavily trod builds like chargers, hence no posting.

People agreed it was a good build just not great because it was just a cute trick. It wasn't going to do anything compared to a striker in terms of nova.



Looking back through it, there were some supportive voices.  It's just really easy to get burned by the "charger or bust" comments.  Rereading did make me feel better about the whole afair, but I'm still unlikely to through any more odd ball ideas this way.



The problem is that charging isn't the best supported option in the game. Just the dumbest, easiest to optimize one. The scorn comes from being so lazy that you can't see 'beat the charger' as a reasonable challenge. C'mon, son, it's not that hard! Put the effort in!

---

@svendj: Your system mastery is more than high enough and everybody will be willing to help. Go for it!
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
That's why it is so great to have LDB back on the boards.  He has a wealth of knowledge and equal amounts of tact and willingness to help.

If only everyone on CharOP posted in the same manner...

Not to sound like I am running down LDB, I'm not, but what are you talking about? LDB is the poster-child for rudely dismissing ignorant people and telling them to learn something before they post again. He invented the term "Low. System. Mastery." to insult people who are ignorant and are, deservedly!, criticized and ignored for their lack of effort in trying to understand the rules before they post opinions.

Which is behavior I completely approve of. Experts are allowed to dismiss people who are not experts. Most people don't like being treated that way and get belligerent about it, but that is their problem and not the experts. So obviously I don't mind that LDB rudely dismisses people all the time.
Headband of Intellect
Resplendent Gloves
Mindwarp Staff of Ruin
Siberys Shard of the Mage
Implement Focus
Psychic Lock

...done...

Now have fun spamming Dishearten every encounter.

That's why it is so great to have LDB back on the boards.  He has a wealth of knowledge and equal amounts of tact and willingness to help.

If only everyone on CharOP posted in the same manner...

Not to sound like I am running down LDB, I'm not, but what are you talking about? LDB is the poster-child for rudely dismissing ignorant people and telling them to learn something before they post again. He invented the term "Low. System. Mastery." to insult people who are ignorant and are, deservedly!, criticized and ignored for their lack of effort in trying to understand the rules before they post opinions.

Which is behavior I completely approve of. Experts are allowed to dismiss people who are not experts. Most people don't like being treated that way and get belligerent about it, but that is their problem and not the experts. So obviously I don't mind that LDB rudely dismisses people all the time.




Just make sure to reserve the bile for the rude, the pushy/demanding, and the willfully ignorant. It does no service to our hobby to scare off beginners who are seeking help in good faith.
Just make sure to reserve the bile for the rude, the pushy/demanding, and the willfully ignorant. It does no service to our hobby to scare off beginners who are seeking help in good faith.

And it usually does work out that way. I usually reserve it for the third category, myself, but I just feel weird that Andrakin has chided people for using the "LSM" insult while praising the guy who literally invented for it for being tactful. LDB is about as tactful as any other CharOp poster and in fact most CharOp regulars who are as knowledgeable as LDB do post in the same manner he does.
Not to mention the RQ&A regulars, too.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
That's why it is so great to have LDB back on the boards.  He has a wealth of knowledge and equal amounts of tact and willingness to help.

If only everyone on CharOP posted in the same manner...

Not to sound like I am running down LDB, I'm not, but what are you talking about? LDB is the poster-child for rudely dismissing ignorant people and telling them to learn something before they post again. He invented the term "Low. System. Mastery." to insult people who are ignorant and are, deservedly!, criticized and ignored for their lack of effort in trying to understand the rules before they post opinions.

Which is behavior I completely approve of. Experts are allowed to dismiss people who are not experts. Most people don't like being treated that way and get belligerent about it, but that is their problem and not the experts. So obviously I don't mind that LDB rudely dismisses people all the time.

I completely disagree with you about LDB.  I have never seen him exhibit the behaviour you describe.  Quite the contrary.

As for approving of "rudely dismissing" someone seeking help, well, you only reinforce the point I am making.  An expert doesn't just know what to say; an expert also knows how to say it.
No, experts know the right answer... and in point of fact history is littered with people, starting with most Nobel prize winners, who are incredibly rude about dismissing people who are ignorant and try to claim they have a valid opinion in the expert's area. Having met seven of them I can guarantee that last bit and there are tons of stories of similar experiences with experts. Being right buys you the ability to be rude, don't you watch House?

That you've never seen it gives me a very "rose-colored" glasses feeling because, as mentioned, he invented the insult you dislike so much. But /shrug.
No, experts know the right answer... and in point of fact history is littered with people, starting with most Nobel prize winners, who are incredibly rude about dismissing people who are ignorant and try to claim they have a valid opinion in the expert's area. Having met seven of them I can guarantee that last bit and there are tons of stories of similar experiences with experts. Being right buys you the ability to be rude, don't you watch House?

That you've never seen it gives me a very "rose-colored" glasses feeling because, as mentioned, he invented the insult you dislike so much. But /shrug.

I have no rose-colored glasses for LDB.  I just have not witnessed the behaviour you describe.  Even if he is jerk and I haven't seen it, it doesn't change my point.

To be a true expert, you can't just know the right answer, you have to be able to express it appropriately.  Of course, this is based on the assumption that you are actually trying to help the person to begin with.

Think of it as the difference between a game show contestant and a teacher.  One is using their knowledge for their own benefit, the other is using their knowledge to better someone else.  Sadly, I feel that there are too many game show contestants and not enough teachers on CharOP.

If the answer is correct, someone trying to learn will learn regardless. ^.^ Perhaps you should direct your criticism towards the ignorant who are unwilling to learn, rather than the knowledgeable who are unwilling to coddle them?
Now, now, boys, no fighting about me and me behaviors. ;)

Listen, I'll be the first to admit that when people consistently prove they are unwilling or unable to take advice on things that should be common knowledge for someone who professes to know the game, I just shrug, lay down an LSM, and move on. The term isn't really invented as an insult as much as it is a red flag, though. It's a "this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, let's move on", or at least that was the intention. Is it rude? You betcha. But that's why it's only whipped out when the other person is being rude to begin with.

Either way, I think this thread's original topic is pretty much dead, but at least we got something nice out of it in someone volunteering for Psion Handbook duty (go get 'em!).
Listen, I'll be the first to admit that when people consistently prove they are unwilling or unable to take advice on things that should be common knowledge for someone who professes to know the game, I just shrug, lay down an LSM, and move on.


Hey LDB, would you help me with my ranger build?  So far I've picked Predator Strike and Shield of Blades.  What else should I get?  I like having my beast do lots of damage.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
A generous DM that will listen to proposals on how your damage feats should affect the Beast. ;)
Bah.  Bah I say!  I skipped Twin Strike, and got beast powers for crying out loud, and all you have to say is some lousy comment about damage feats?

You're no fun at all.  Where's the vitriol, the rancor, the flippant dismissal?

oh...damn...I forgot to be rude in my post...


MandFail...

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition