4-in-1 Hybrid Blackgaurd/Sentinel

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So I wanted to make a character that can kind of manage the 4 classic roles of Striker, Defender, Leader, and Controller. I've been trying (and failing) for a while now but I think I got it. Hamadryad Werewolf Fury Blackgaurd/Spring Sentinel the build takes Ardent Strike and Grasping Claws for at-will marking and controller attacks of op, the essentials encounters (heavy on Dread Smite) to stack damage and position the CA aura of the wolf, "Primal" dalies like primal wolf and spider to add control to melee and the paladin ability to pick up a multi-sanction or ongoing sanction power, and stack utilites to be more leader like (ally buffs, heals, saves, ect) granted it's spam ardent strike and little else but you can stack a pretty ridiculous ammount of  effects (slow, prone, ongoing damage, and sanction by level 10) and mix in minor action utilites and you can function as all four at any given moment. the stat build is 10, 12, 12, 8, 18, 18 and stack Wis/Cha through the build. What I'm not sure about are PP(Maybe Questing Knight), ED(+2Wis/Cha prefered), and Feat Support after level 10.  I'm not looking to change my classes, powers, or themes but any helpful suggestions would be great thanks.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Celindara, level 10
Hamadryad, Paladin (Blackguard)/Druid (Sentinel)
Vice: Vice of Fury
Season: Druid of Spring
Hybrid Paladin (Blackguard) Option: Hybrid Blackguard Fortitude
Hybrid Talent Option: Paladin Armor Proficiency
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 12, DEX 12, INT 8, WIS 20, CHA 20
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 12, DEX 12, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 16
 
 
AC: 30 Fort: 21 Ref: 21 Will: 23
HP: 78 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 19
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy +17, Heal +17, Nature +17
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Arcana +4, Athletics +1, Bluff +10, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +2, History +4, Insight +10, Intimidate +10, Perception +10, Religion +4, Stealth +2, Streetwise +10, Thievery +2
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Hamadryad Utility: Hamadryad Aspects
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Paladin Attack: Dread Smite
Druid Attack: Combined Attack
: Dread Smite (Additional Use)
Paladin Attack 1: Ardent Strike
Druid Attack 1: Grasping Claws
Paladin Attack 1: Majestic Halo
Druid Utility 2: Lesser Restoration
Druid Attack 5: Primal Spider
Heal Utility 6: Swift Recovery
Druid Attack 9: Primal Wolf
Paladin Utility 10: Benediction
 
FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Devout Protector Expertise
Level 4: Superior Implement Training (Accurate symbol)
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 8: Implement Focus (Holy Symbol)
Level 10: Improved Defenses
 
ITEMS
Accurate symbol of the Holy Nimbus +2 x1
Learning Scimitar +2 x1
Summoned Gith Plate Armor +3 x1
Amulet of Protection +2 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Shield of the Guardian Heavy Shield (heroic tier) x1
====== End ======
So, you combined a really bad striker and a really bad leader, a subpar controller, and a bad defender (Your NADs are atrocious). Congrats?
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
So, you combined a really bad striker and a really bad leader, a subpar controller, and a bad defender (Your NADs are atrocious). Congrats?

Alright opinion noted, so how about somthing constructive like idk tips to bring up NADs feats or PP to make up for class short comings somthing other than it's not a top tier class abandon all hope.
A cleric|Ranger does nearly everything this can do better.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I think the best advice I can give you is simple. This game rewards specialisation. If you try to be a little of all things, you will be good at none.

In the end, you will be a reason the DM puts more monsters on the board, but you are unable to handle your share of them. A burden, not a benefit to your team.

If your plan is to solo all encounters, rambo-style...you do not need to be a defender, and you only need to bring a couple of healing potions to heal yourself. Controllers specialise in status effects, but for you those just delay the fact you need to deal with the monsters the DM throws at you anyway.

In short: not understanding the concept, or the reasoning behind it, and I do not think it works, at all. As a result, little positive to say about this build, or even what you could change to make it work without completely revising the original concept.
Actually soloing isn't the point I wanted to make a character I can PUG with I've been in a lot of games where the party balance is really skewed towards one type (usually striker sometimes controller) I wanted to be able to pick up the slack in those scenarios. It's not a soloist but an attempt at a team captain that can hold aggro keep his target from straying and should it cause havoc repair the damage while dropping a significant bit of damage on it's own and as for Ranger|Cleric it has no reliable mark with a direct consequence.
I think the basic issue is that you're not really a Defender or a Controller at all. If I were going to go this route, at the minimum, your Druid at-will should be Magic Stones. You want Call of Challenge as your utility 2 so as to have a mass mark option. Accurate Symbol, Weapon Focus and Implement focus or other feats that are limited to one side of your build are expensive - look for feats such as Silvery Glow which give you a larger bonus across an entire range of powers.

I might also look to be Str/Wis instead of Wis/Cha.

If I were going to build such a build, I'd look at Swordmage|Bard MC Wizard where you start off with a 20 Int and pick up Skald options and eventually go Resourceful Magician to be a full-blown Wizard who can mark, heal, control, and use things such as Borrowed Confidence and Twin Spell to be a 'striker' 
Actually soloing isn't the point I wanted to make a character I can PUG with I've been in a lot of games where the party balance is really skewed towards one type (usually striker sometimes controller) I wanted to be able to pick up the slack in those scenarios. It's not a soloist but an attempt at a team captain that can hold aggro keep his target from straying and should it cause havoc repair the damage while dropping a significant bit of damage on it's own and as for Ranger|Cleric it has no reliable mark with a direct consequence.



You could always go with Option 2: have several characters ready when joining a game, so that you can choose what role you play just before the campaign starts. Put together 4 characters who interest you, one for each role, then choose which one you're going to play when you find out what everyone else is playing.
I'll look in to more efficent feats as that is a fair enough flaw although Cha/Wis gives me better sanction strength and stronger dread smites granted at the expense of my NADs and a restriction to chaladin powers as for the power options I'm not sure about magic stones push 1 at a range doesn't feel like it would mesh well with someone who wants to be in melee to use other powers the grasping claws gives me an opportunity to hamstring people as they disengage from me to attack others. I realize I'm not going to be godlike in every field I'm just trying to be flexible and adaptive enough to be a little better than the sum of my parts.
Actually soloing isn't the point I wanted to make a character I can PUG with I've been in a lot of games where the party balance is really skewed towards one type (usually striker sometimes controller) I wanted to be able to pick up the slack in those scenarios. It's not a soloist but an attempt at a team captain that can hold aggro keep his target from straying and should it cause havoc repair the damage while dropping a significant bit of damage on it's own and as for Ranger|Cleric it has no reliable mark with a direct consequence.



Tactical Warpriest argues differently.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I think the best advice I can give you is simple. This game rewards specialisation. If you try to be a little of all things, you will be good at none.

In the end, you will be a reason the DM puts more monsters on the board, but you are unable to handle your share of them. A burden, not a benefit to your team.

If your plan is to solo all encounters, rambo-style...you do not need to be a defender, and you only need to bring a couple of healing potions to heal yourself. Controllers specialise in status effects, but for you those just delay the fact you need to deal with the monsters the DM throws at you anyway.

In short: not understanding the concept, or the reasoning behind it, and I do not think it works, at all. As a result, little positive to say about this build, or even what you could change to make it work without completely revising the original concept.


I don't think I've said this before, but I'll say it here. This is what System Mastery looks like.

Regarding Ranger|Cleric (or any non-traditional defender), marking and mark penalties: Giving allies a defense bonus is effectively the same as giving enemies an attack penalty, which isn't to say that you can't also be giving enemies attack penalties on a large number of your attacks regardless of class (warlocks and psions are pretty pimp at this). A good part of what makes most Defenders good has absolutely nothing to do with their Mark mechanic (though that is certainly a large part as well) and has more to do with their power selection and feat choices. As for punishment, Battle Awareness, Guardian, and Mighty Hew already take 3 turns of IAs as effective punishment, Disruptive Strike gives you a generic 4th punishment. Until Epic, you're now lock step with a fighters CC usage and you never even needed to mark.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
OP: you are not reading what they are saying. You cannot be "more than the sum of your parts" if you are trying to dabble in everything. Yes, we understand you want assistance being optimized within this Blackguard/Sentinel hybrid, but it just won't work very well, especially as Wis/Cha. The optimal choices for the build will still be not good enough to help anyone.
I'll look in to more efficent feats as that is a fair enough flaw although Cha/Wis gives me better sanction strength and stronger dread smites granted at the expense of my NADs and a restriction to chaladin powers as for the power options I'm not sure about magic stones push 1 at a range doesn't feel like it would mesh well with someone who wants to be in melee to use other powers the grasping claws gives me an opportunity to hamstring people as they disengage from me to attack others. I realize I'm not going to be godlike in every field I'm just trying to be flexible and adaptive enough to be a little better than the sum of my parts.



Generally speaking, if you're a hybrid build, one of four things has to happen, where X is one role and Y is the other - I'll use builds from my signature to make it straightforward:
You're a build who is focused on making your Paragon Path or Epic Destiny unbelievably good. Illusion of Hope creates a party nova option with crazy good stuff.
You're an X|X build who is just as good at the role as a single-class build or better yet, combines features to create superior builds. Examples: Grey Ioun Stone Marker - gets rid of the big disadvantage for focusing on Charisma for a Fighter while upgrading the MBA at the same time. Chordswitch - does a lot of what Killswitch does while setting up a big-time party nova.
You're an X|Y build who is focused on being good at X, but happens to have Y as a hobby. Example: Annie Oakley is nearly at Shoot to Thrill quality in terms of being an Archer Ranger, but she has being a Leader as a hobby.
You're an X|Y build where you hope to be efficient enough at both sides that you're constantly using class features from both every single time you do an action. You might only be 70% of a striker and 70% of a defender, but because you're using both most of the time, you add up to more than either one. An example of this might be a Half-Orc Str/Dex Ranger|Fighter who has a Rain of Blows(marks), Kirre's Roar(again, marks), and Come And Get It(again, marks) - even though they're using Twin Strike and Ranger minor action attacks, at the heart of it, they're able to act as an off-defender for the critical rounds in most combats while still doing Striker damage. These builds tend to not make the top-lists because they're inherently about good consistent play from the player rather than being powerhouse.

The problem as I see it is that you're not really doing any of those - most of the time, you're a weaker than normal Blackguard who has the option of taking on another role in any given round. But why do you need to take on that additional role? Because you're not doing the consistent damage output of a Striker...
I have to agree with the above poster that you'll be better off making multiple characters if you want to be flexible for a pickup game.  If you're in this forum, it means you probably enjoy making characters in the first place, so it's not like it's a chore to do so.  Although it can be a fun challenge to try and make an effective jack-of-all-trades, it's just not really possible in 4e.
I have to agree with the above poster that you'll be better off making multiple characters if you want to be flexible for a pickup game.  If you're in this forum, it means you probably enjoy making characters in the first place, so it's not like it's a chore to do so.  Although it can be a fun challenge to try and make an effective jack-of-all-trades, it's just not really possible in 4e.



I wouldn't go that far. A Shielding Swordmage|Bard MC Wizard 17/Resourceful Magician who starts with a 20 Int makes a fine Defender/Leader/Controller/Striker.

i.e. have Planestrider Boots, Thundering Vortex, Borrowed Confidence, Swordburst, and an option to boost pulls by 1 and do the following:
Minor Borrowed Confidence(make 2 attack rolls instead of 1)
Move Teleport 10 squares with Boots to a spot where you're most likely to grab half the battlefield.
Standard Thundering Vortex, Close Burst 4, pull 3, anyone hit is marked with your shielding aegis, make 2 attack rolls for all your attacks
AP: Swordburst
Free Action: Twinned Spell - do Swordburst again as your Resourceful Magician 11 power.

Trying to go for critical hits here can work wonders - you're likely making 6 attack rolls against each opponent and one of the 2 19-20 crit blades should do the trick to make half your opponents suffer at least one critical hit on average(though that part doesn't count for that much with a Jagged Weapon)

As a Bard, you can even pick up Bard of All Trades to be +4 in any untrained skill.
I feel to see how that makes a potent striker.
 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I feel to see how that makes a potent striker.
 



You're basically doing an Avenger routine to any enemy in a close burst 4 area and attacking all of them 3 times each in a single round. Resourceful Magicians with Borrowed Confidence do a lot of damage with a at-will burst power and Twinned Spell and an AP in actual play, particularly when optimized to do critical hits if it can get most of their enemies into a small area.

Which this does with ease. Will it be a super-optimized CharOp Striker? Nope. Will people complain that you've been reading too much on how to make a CharOp Striker in a regular optimization game? Sure...
Great, so you can be average at everything. Thanks.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
You say that like it's a bad thing.

You don't have to be awesome at even one thing to win encounters. The OP wants to optimize efficiency in more than one role. That doesn't mean that the build has to be as good as the super-specialized builds we see here within each role.

I would prefer to excel at 2 things than be middling at 3 and a half. Its a team game, its best played like its one.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
You say that like it's a bad thing.

You don't have to be awesome at even one thing to win encounters. The OP wants to optimize efficiency in more than one role. That doesn't mean that the build has to be as good as the super-specialized builds we see here within each role.



My criticism is not with what the OP wants, but what he can actually accomplish.

First of all, no one wins encounters, D&D is not a game for winning.

Secondly, if you are no good at any one thing, than what are you contributing to the team ?  The original conundrum that had the OP baffled (uncertain of group consistency) can much more easily be solved by having multiple characters at the ready, or building yourself any of the more or less self-reliant characters. In the latter category fall the cleric-ranger, various types with high defenses, pretty much any warlord with a weapon, and quite a number of other classes.

Point is, in D&D there is not one single perfect solution for every possible situation, trying to build for that (giving opportunity cost) often means you put effort into things that either are very niche, or that even when lots of resources are applied to it, you will still be sub-par at.

Short version, specialisation rules in a team game.
You also don't start with 2 classes that are laughable at their roles to begin with. Ranger|Cleric (or Ranger|Warlord) and Swordmage|Warlock can work at being 3 roles (Striker, Leader, Defender and Defender, Controller, Striker respectively) and be above average in 2 of those roles because the classes involved are either pretty much the best at their primary role to begin with, or competent in their primary role but already competent in another role.

But that's a class balance issue and not a gameplay theory creation.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I would prefer to excel at 2 things than be middling at 3 and a half. Its a team game, its best played like its one.



The Swordmage|Bard is a 20 Int build who advances Int and Con. i.e. it is a Swordmage Hybrid which gives up almost nothing to be a hybrid. And unlike most Resourceful Magicians, it has no mechanical reason to start with anything less than a 20 Int at 1st level, which means the Wizard options will be very solid.

There's your excel at 2 things. 
You say that like it's a bad thing.

You don't have to be awesome at even one thing to win encounters. The OP wants to optimize efficiency in more than one role. That doesn't mean that the build has to be as good as the super-specialized builds we see here within each role.



First of all, no one wins encounters


Yes they do. If my use of the word "win" makes you uncomfortable, then feel free to substitute in any of these: beat, overcome, defeat, succeed, survive. (This list is not exhaustive.)

That's actually most of the point of CharOp. We don't optimize characters to die in any given encounter. We optimize them to win encounters. It's the whole point of the party roles, the teamwork, the optimization, the XP and treasure rewards, etc.

It gives players the abilities and incentives to work together and overcome encounters.
D&D is not a game for winning.


Whatever you say. But I think we can both agree I was not making anything near this point when you quoted me.
Secondly, if you are no good at any one thing, than what are you contributing to the team ?

 
I don't know. Who said someone wasn't good at anything?

There is a difference between not being super specialized and not being good. The former does not imply the latter.

Asking "what are you contributing" with a build that is baseline in all four roles doesn't make sense to me. Obviously, there are different levels of optimization. You don't need an Ultimate Defender, a Kill Switch,and Ranger DPR to level up through the game.

Point is,


My point is that a character that can defend, strike, control, and lead at any given time is not sub-par or bad or not contributing just because he isn't hitting the benchmarks of specialized characters.

That's just a narrow view of optimization.

Short version, specialisation rules in a team game.


After a certain point, more specialization isn't needed. There is room to do other things with your build.
You're completely ignoring his point Khan, and being intellectually dishonest about it.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
You're stating this build meets all the  baseline requirements of the 4 roles. I do not think that you do, moreso, I do not think it is something you can do or should strife for.
You're stating this build meets all the  baseline requirements of the 4 roles. I do not think that you do, moreso, I do not think it is something you can do or should strife for.



Why not? It does manage to meet the general requirements of all 4 roles reasonably well:
Defender: It is a 20 Int/advancing Constitution Shielding Swordmage with Defender level defenses and who invests in being a better Defender by making the aegis better via feats and via damage options.
Controller: Once 16th level comes along, it is a 20 Int character who can cherry pick the best Wizard powers.
Leader: Revitalizing Incantation, Mantle of Unity. Not crazy good Leader by any means, but those are two really strong Leader powers.
Striker: Do 10 attack rolls per target in Epic with an AP reasonably consistently. See if the DM feels you're not an effective striker when you kill a few standards in a single round.

I do think the build takes a while to get off the ground as far as being a Controller/Striker - it really doesn't happen until 16th level. But once you're 18th or so, it does the job.

Would I want to play such a build? No. But it should be perfectly functional and optimal in a CharOp party, able to take on the missing roles reasonably well. 
You're completely ignoring his point Khan, and being intellectually dishonest about it.


If I'm ignoring his point it's because I'm not interested in it. My original post in this thread was directed at your remark about Mommy's insight/build.

Baldhermit quoted me but addressed things that I don't think either myself or Mommy were arguing for, so I found much of his response irrelevant and just used it to clarify my own points.

So I'm not making any comments about the OP, or whether D&D is about winning, or about characters that are good at nothing.
You did a great job quoting then, props.
This thread has fallen so far downhill, but then again, it started with a Blackguard sentinel, so it couldn't fall that far. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I've followed the conversation just fine, and have kept up with your responses despite the fact that you are not using quotes either.

You didn't quote me, or mention me in your post, and yet I can assume that "You did a great job quoting then, props." is directed at me.

Thank you reading comprehension.
Mommy: so if I understand you correctly,  baseline level characters performing just in a single role could do with 60% (assuming overlap) less powers, features and feats, and still be properly functional ?
I didn't think MwaO actually said that....

But you know, depending on the class, ye, they probably could. You take your superstars (fighters, mages, rogues, rangers, warlords) and they could still easily hit their roles benchmarks with 60% fewer features. They will be boring as all get out and have little to no secondary role, but still. Now, you take some of the lesser supported classes, and they definitely need all they can get to keep up.
In some cases, yes. You can play a Fighter quite effectively for "normal" tables with just a couple powers and feats. E.g. Come and Get it, Tide of Iron, Shield Push, Hammering Iron and Hindering Shield. Pull, push, slow, gg. Even less, Mark of Storm and Flail Expertise :P
You're not an Ultimate Defender or a highly optimized character by any means, but can you work your role with few tools? Yeah. Can it be enough in a normal, unoptimized table? Yeah.

Heck, an archer Ranger spamming Twin Strike all day long from a mile away, no questions asked.
Mommy: so if I understand you correctly,  baseline level characters performing just in a single role could do with 60% (assuming overlap) less powers, features and feats, and still be properly functional ?



Generally not. If you're doing one role as your focus, it ought to be at least 90% where another role is at least 40%. If you're performing multiple roles for the party at the same time, they ought to be both happening every round at roughly a 70/70 kind of way. If that's true, then there's lots of room for optimization.

Example of 90/40: Archer Ranger|Bard. You can mimic Shoot to Thrill, Bard has about 5 crazy good choices in Heroic Tier and Rangers don't care about their other at-will anyway.

Example of 70/70: Most Defender|Striker builds. They're not great Defenders, they're not great Strikers, but if they can mark each round while doing okay Striker damage, then they're fine. They're usually not good at  sitting down at the table and being certain kinds of primary Defender, though.
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