258 players show up for the SCG legacy Open this weekend... but MTGO can't get 16 for a DE?

52 posts / 0 new
Last post
Seriously it baffles my mind that live play gets that kind of showing and MTGO can't fire DEs!

Is it because Online prizes just aren't big enough?
Do people not realize how much CHEAPER online is overall? (yes there are a couple rare exceptions)
Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!
Prizes would be part of it, and while some cards are cheaper online (mainly old duals and anything from the early sets, funny how certain cards from sets like visions are more expensive online than cards from Arabian Nights etc) others like FoW in particular are more expensive.

And until more legacy events start to fire, I can't be the only one who can't really justify spending $400 on a playset of online FoW, so it's a cyclical problem. Threre really *needs* more of that card in particular in circulation, but it's been stated somewhere that there isn't going to be another masters edition and ME1 would have to be one of the most aweful limited sets I have ever played, it's basically a lottery, followed by awful games of magic.

Personally I have always wondered, how many FoW total exist online, and what percentage of those are sitting on bots, unused. I know I mention one card alot, but it really is one of the defining cards in legacy, without it, combo is allowed to run unchecked.
Prizes would be part of it, and while some cards are cheaper online (mainly old duals and anything from the early sets, funny how certain cards from sets like visions are more expensive online than cards from Arabian Nights etc) others like FoW in particular are more expensive.

And until more legacy events start to fire, I can't be the only one who can't really justify spending $400 on a playset of online FoW, so it's a cyclical problem. Threre really *needs* more of that card in particular in circulation, but it's been stated somewhere that there isn't going to be another masters edition and ME1 would have to be one of the most aweful limited sets I have ever played, it's basically a lottery, followed by awful games of magic.

Personally I have always wondered, how many FoW total exist online, and what percentage of those are sitting on bots, unused. I know I mention one card alot, but it really is one of the defining cards in legacy, without it, combo is allowed to run unchecked.



While FoW is more expensive online that is pretty much the only card that is. Cards like Duals are sooo much cheaper that it more than balances (there have been tons of articles that clearly demonstrate that online legacy decks are cheaper even those with 4x FoW)

So I really can't accept that the price of FoW is the problem. Maybe rampant misinformation about the price of legacy online is the problem...

that said I do hope that they reprint Fow (in Duel Decks Izzet Vs. Golgari or in the next Premium Deck series, or in the next commander product) and more than that I hope they make it the MOCS promo next month

Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!
I think you need to also take into account the quality of Legacy tournaments players have access to offline.

If you are interested in competitive play and want to win stuff, standard and modern tournaments give out the exact same prizes and are sadly, much more relevant for PTQs, MOCS (will we see a legacy MOCS this year?) etc. I'm not sure of the exact price for a competitive (non red burn) online legacy deck, but something with FoW, some duals and other semi expensive cards has to be up around $700+. Paying that much, for what would seem to someone looking at what is being played, for a dead format is a pretty hard sell.

As I mentioned, online legacy is stuck in a cycle, people don't actively seek to play it, because it's not being played. Personally I think one way to get it going again is to do something like the following:

 - Regular *special* tournaments, not just having something with the same prizes as a standard tournament, give out ME packs as prizes maybe.
 - Some of the expensive cards need to be made more accessible, have promos for the special tournaments, *hopefully* once some of these get into circulation, it will push prices down a little. It probably couldn't hurt to alternate nix tix/pax between a legacy block and a modern block.

Were there any other legacy staple cards in ME1 other than FoW? I think Moat may have been there.  Perhaps have some special ME block drafts/4 booster sealeds every now and again, get some more of these cards into the system. (ME1 limited sucks, we don't need that) or release ME5, make FoW one of the mythics and make the rest of the set fun to play in limited, include some of the more important ME legacy staples, but probably leave the mirage block onward chase cards for their own sets.
Duals are divided in price between the highly played/sought after and the unplayables. Plateau, Taiga, Badlands, Scrubland, are fairly low because no one uses them. Volcanic, and Bayou are midrange ($15ish) and then the others (Tundra, Savannah, Tropical, Underground) are 20+. This is not really affordable for people any more than FOW at $100 (or $400 a play set). Wastelands dipped briefly and then climbed back up to $36ish. Workshop is $18!? Gaea's Cradle $20+. Bazaar is cheapish, for sure. ($6ish).

 So yeah prices could be lower, particularly the lands. I played the shops deck at the Ham on Wry (classic) event and considered buying into it but its still too pricy for me and there are no FOWS or duals in it.

I mean they say where there is a will there is a way but typically people go with the flow. If the easiest path is to play modern/standard/etc thats what gets played. Also there are the many myths surrounding classic and legacy that will cause people to avoid it.

And really how casual is the format? I see people playing (crazy) classic casual decks but I never see legacy games in JUFF unless it is Tribal Wars or the like. I think Legacy seems too cutthroat for many and those who like that play Modern. Those who don't play Classic. (Why limit yourself?)

In a way, selfishly, I am kind of glad that Legacy never took off on MO. If it did dual lands would never be obtainable. Many obscure cards would go up in price just because they are in the format (never mind that no one sane would play them in a competitive deck.) But I do feel for those who want to play it and don't get to because it is just not popular enough.

Winter.Wolf

Do people not test online for the paper Legacy tournaments anymore?  Or is TP enough for that?

Legacy was hot online in 2010 and 2011 until Modern hit.  That makes sense about Modern having the same prizes but being cheaper and firing more.  If there's one thing I've learned from playing competitive Classic, it's that competitive Magic players have no loyalty or love for formats, they just follow the money.
Why would anyone buy a Legacy deck?  I don't even feel like splurging on a tier 1 pauper deck, I just play the tier 2 deck that I already own all of the cards for, so it's ridiculous to imagine people splurging on legacy decks.  Pauper tournaments have the same entry fee, payout the same prize, and they actually fire consistently, unlike legacy tournaments.  Plus people don't follow the DE schedule and plan their life around when events start, most just play in an event if it's convenient.  To relate this to pauper, although pauper DE's often draw 20-40 players, those players come from a pool of a couple hundred semi-consistent players.  So for a Legacy DE to fill 16 slots, you would need a pool of at least like 75 or 100 players who occasionally enter the events.  Therefore, it's harder than it seems, especially the part about convincing dozens of players to spend $700 on non-redeemable digital cards to play in a tournament that never fires.
I'm curious if some sort of incentive similair to winter celebration for Classic would help.  I feel like if there was a short little push, many people would stay with those decks.  If not, then something really has to be looked at.  I feel like with a little push, most would stay though.  They were there before the stalled banning of Mental Misstep, and they might still be there.  (Although MOCS promo FOW might be a nice push of about 2000 more of them into the system and hopefully a few of them coming for competitive events.)
We're not all students, you know. I have a wife and three kids, and life is busy.
I've got crap to do all day, even on weekends,  and unfortunately sitting around for a few hours playing in a DE isn't usually high on my list of things I can do.

You can incentivize events up the wazoo but that only helps so much because it's not always a question of EV; it's often a question of opportunity.

Guess what? Chicken butt.

Unfortunately the winter celebration didn't help classic long term as the events stopped firing after the celebration ended.

I am sort of at a loss at what with needs to do... There are plenty of people out there who love legacy (and vintage) what needs to be done to get them online??
Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!
You may say that online cards are cheaper than their paper counterpart (except for FOW) but do realize that those SCG guys have already bought the paper ones. Do you want them to spend even more just so they can help keep the online version alive?

These ppl are already well able to play irl. I'm not. If I was I'd play paper iso online. It's that simple.
Free Speech
Free speech is the right to speak your mind without government censorship and without fear of extralegal retaliation like harassment or violence. That’s all! Free speech doesn’t include the right to speak your mind on any forum anywhere. The government may not prevent you from speaking, but private parties, like blog owners or corporations, aren’t required to let you use their property as your platform. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be believed or to be taken seriously. People may mock, ridicule or laugh at what you say, or they may reject it outright. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be listened to. People who don’t desire to hear your opinion can hang up on you, block you on social media, change the channel, close the browser tab. Free speech doesn’t give you the right to bombard people with harassing messages or otherwise force them to pay attention to you against their will. And free speech doesn’t include the right to suffer no consequences whatsoever for your expressed opinions.
I don't know why this is, but...

To a new player, hearing the term "Legacy" conjurs up vivid imagery of T1 on the play kills. They hear about FoW, and how expensive it is, and some of the insane combos available, and they mess their shorts and run screaming for mommy.

This may have something to do with it.

I do not wish to participate in this Community Site.

I don't know why this is, but...

To a new player, hearing the term "Legacy" conjurs up vivid imagery of T1 on the play kills. They hear about FoW, and how expensive it is, and some of the insane combos available, and they mess their shorts and run screaming for mommy.

This may have something to do with it.



I'm not particularly new, but this is still relatively close to my perception about legacy.  I'm probably at least partly wrong about the speed of games and the level of interactivity, but I'm not about to spend $700+ to find out.  Right or wrong, i'm just not, especially when there are plenty of other formats that I actually have the cards for and don't have the time to even get to.

I was amazed at how slow someof the games were I watch a while back of Legacy.


Giving that, I would be almost tempted to play a  tier 1 std deck and still do very well with it.


I agree with alot of what most players said already in this thread about not having the time or willing to spend the  amount of money it would take to have a deck for the format just so I can say I have one or play it only once a month?

     

Let Wotc know that Standard Pauper needs in game support! WoTc does listen! HERE

BETA BOARDS Moderator

Want to know about the next Magic Online Player Run Events? Then click the link and check it out!

Making MTGO a better place by BETA testing!

How to apply for beta

Community Cup Player 2011
 

Even in Classic, many of the games can go extremely long. Turn 1/2/3 kills do happen in Eternal formats online but are not the norm.

 The draw to theese formats is not the 'fast kill', it's being able to play with cards that are extremely powerful, and that can't be played anywhere else.

Guess what? Chicken butt.

The draw to theese formats is not the 'fast kill', it's being able to play with cards that are extremely powerful, and that can't be played anywhere else.

Agreed. 

That still does not afftect the perception by many (most?) people that Legacy is vicious as opposed to viscous.

Or that competitive Legacy is like F1 Racing in that it's expensive to get into.

I do not wish to participate in this Community Site.

Really, they just need to get FOW's into the system.  Making a promise not to reprint FOW was a terrible idea, and even worse was abiding by it year later when the folly of the promise was clearly evident.


The good of the game as a whole has to count for more than a "promise" made in a forum post years ago, that was clearly not thought out at all.  A 5th MED should be produced that gets the last remaining cards not on MODO into the system, and also reprints old set legacy staples.  You can use the newly commissioned dual land arts from cube, and throw in staples from MVW, TSE, UUU, and Masques block.   This is essentially a no-lose situation for Wizards.  Even if it doesn't spark an interest in legacy, it will still sell a ton of online product, and can be used during a dead time between releases.
Really, they just need to get FOW's into the system.  Making a promise not to reprint FOW was a terrible idea, and even worse was abiding by it year later when the folly of the promise was clearly evident.


The good of the game as a whole has to count for more than a "promise" made in a forum post years ago, that was clearly not thought out at all.  A 5th MED should be produced that gets the last remaining cards not on MODO into the system, and also reprints old set legacy staples.  You can use the newly commissioned dual land arts from cube, and throw in staples from MVW, TSE, UUU, and Masques block.   This is essentially a no-lose situation for Wizards.  Even if it doesn't spark an interest in legacy, it will still sell a ton of online product, and can be used during a dead time between releases.


FoW, which is what you're getting at, CAN't be reprinted in an MED set.
And seriously, the idea of an MED 5 has bigger issues then just the fact that it can't contain FoW:
It has to be decent to draft, which btw, if you drafted any of the first three MED's, you'd know how god awful that was. They kind of fixed it for 5 but it was still painfully slow compared to modern sets.
Now, I'm not against reprinting staples per se, but I'd like to point out that there are always going to be expensive cards because when you reprint some set of cards to increase supply, you drive up the prices on the ones that you don't reprint. Unless you reprint everything. And then you depress the entire market.
Unlimited availability undermines the value of not just singles but the packs those singles come in.

Anyway, we're getting off into theory-land.

What I really wanted to say was that while FoW may be the most expensive, when you look at what's NOT expensive in comparison (Duals specifically) you can see that FoW isn't really the bottleneck people make it out to be.

Guess what? Chicken butt.

Really, they just need to get FOW's into the system.  Making a promise not to reprint FOW was a terrible idea, and even worse was abiding by it year later when the folly of the promise was clearly evident.


The good of the game as a whole has to count for more than a "promise" made in a forum post years ago, that was clearly not thought out at all.  A 5th MED should be produced that gets the last remaining cards not on MODO into the system, and also reprints old set legacy staples.  You can use the newly commissioned dual land arts from cube, and throw in staples from MVW, TSE, UUU, and Masques block.   This is essentially a no-lose situation for Wizards.  Even if it doesn't spark an interest in legacy, it will still sell a ton of online product, and can be used during a dead time between releases.



I'm fine with these goals, but it's not possible to do it with one set.  There are about 800 pre-Mirage and Portal cards still not online.  That's too much for one set.  If you want to put in reprints and post-Mirage stuff, too, it's really really too much.  I'm against post-Mirage stuff in ME sets.  Just leave that to nixtix weeks.  
There are also no money cards left except the Power 9.  There are some original arts that people might want like Birds of Paradise and Wrath of God.  There are also a few fringe Legacy sideboard cards, but everything else is pretty rough.  There's also no way they could make a draftable set using just the 800 cards left.  The biggest white creature would be a 3/4 (Starlit Angel, btw).  So there would have to be reprints to make it playable.
I'm a completionist.. I want to see it all online, but they're in a corner now.  Do they make 3 or 4 more Masters sets just to finish it out, reprinting the duals or Force or Mana Drain a few more times?  What good does that do really?  Legacy isn't even firing right now.  Do they make one more that's chaff + Power 9 or 50% reprints + Power 9?  Is it important to end the ME series with Power 9 in a set?  Or could there be a Masters set after Power 9 are online?  I personally don't care if they reprint FOW, I just don't think it's the answer to Legacy's current woes.   
I think they really should have planned out like 10 Masters sets back in 2002 and gotten things rolling from the start.  Spread out the chaff, slow-rolled the money cards, managed reprints.  Maybe it could have worked.  But hindsight is 20/20 and from what I hear, they were too busy dealing with a crashing game back then.   

Lets step back and take a look at the number of Force of Will used in the top 8 of the tournament held on June 2-3rd. My count is 23/32 FOWs in the decklists. That is 71.8% of decks running 4 FOWs (for some reason 1st place ran 3 copies of FOW). That is a lot of FOWs. The decks that did not run FOW were MUD and belcher. There are no outright expensive cards in MUD but Belcher runs 4xLED, another pricy rare on MTGO. So if you want to win, I don't see how people can't say they need FOWs.

If I wanted some FOWs to play in a legacy DE right this second, a certain exploding star bot has 7 in stock. That number is really high because of players selling cards to play in the current release events. A popular member of the cardbot cartel has 8 copies in stock and another has 4 in stock. So if I wanted FOW right now I could get them. I am just looking on websites for FOW and I've already found a lot. That is kinda depressing if you want to think about out how many players went off and just sold their FOW and other legacy staples.

I know you don't need Force of Will to win tournaments online. I know from experience from playing a simple mono-white deck back in the day without FOW. Right now I am not sure if I could win with that same FOWless mono-white deck in the current metagame but I would try it if MTGO fired off legacy DEs still. That's my problem, the DEs don't fire. They used to fire before Mental Misstep was banned in paper. They just haven't fired with the same following since.

Wizards should do something about their eternal formats online. I don't know what but they should do it soon before even the classic players leave.


It is vain to look for a defense against lightning. - Publius Syrus (42 B.C.) How can two people split a point that has no value? “You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.” -Albert Einstein
Really, they just need to get FOW's into the system.  Making a promise not to reprint FOW was a terrible idea, and even worse was abiding by it year later when the folly of the promise was clearly evident.



Ok, let's compare someone who plays only paper legacy with someone who plays only online classic. 4xFOW does not a deck make. You'll need several duals x4, depending on your deck of choice you'll need tarms (or not) oath of druids (or not) and so on.

Now try to figure out which is more expensive as a whole, the paper version or the online version. Hint: you can set the more expensive deck on fire.

Conclusion: if barrier to entry is the problem here, those ppl not buying into classic (online) will CERTAINLY not buy into legacy (paper). So the price of FOW online simply can't explain the difference in popularity between paper and digital. It MUST be something else.
Free Speech
Free speech is the right to speak your mind without government censorship and without fear of extralegal retaliation like harassment or violence. That’s all! Free speech doesn’t include the right to speak your mind on any forum anywhere. The government may not prevent you from speaking, but private parties, like blog owners or corporations, aren’t required to let you use their property as your platform. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be believed or to be taken seriously. People may mock, ridicule or laugh at what you say, or they may reject it outright. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be listened to. People who don’t desire to hear your opinion can hang up on you, block you on social media, change the channel, close the browser tab. Free speech doesn’t give you the right to bombard people with harassing messages or otherwise force them to pay attention to you against their will. And free speech doesn’t include the right to suffer no consequences whatsoever for your expressed opinions.
Ask 100 different players why they don't play Legacy online right now and you'll get 100 different answers.  For some of them, I'm sure it's cost of entry.  If you don't have $500+ to spend (assuming you needed to build a deck from scratch), you don't have it.

But that's not the only reason, and it can't be the prevailing one.  Magic players follow the herd, and follow the popular formats.  If a format is hot (Legacy in 2010), people will find the money.  Popular formats are attractive: they have new tech and evolving metagames and pros to follow and tons of events to play in and big events with big prizes.  When those start to dry up, fewer people play, and then events don't fire, so then fewer people play.

I would imagine the 258 paper players already had (or could borrow) their decks, so that does help with the cost, but they were still finding the money.  How many of them had to travel to that event, or take off from work, or spent money on food and cards while they were there?

I don't know why those same players aren't testing in events online.  I know money is an issue, but having an MTGO account seems pretty common, especially for competitive players (although I personally don't know any competitive paper players, so I could be pulling this one out here).  And as we've discussed, it's cheaper to re-buy your deck online, and much easier and faster to win packs to reduce the amount of cash you put in online. 

My opinion is that Modern is simply more popular now, for no logical reason other than it is, thus more players and more events.

I also wish Wizards would beef up support for eternal formats online.  I don't know what the solution is.  If they up the prizes for Legacy (and Classic), then they are giving special treatment and artificailly subsidizing the formats.  As seen with the Winter Celebration and Weekend Challenges from a few years ago, as soon as that subsidization goes away, so do the players.  Having big events that matter seems to help.  If players are working towards a Legacy MOCS or Online PTQ, they'll suddenly find the money to buy those FoWs they were complaining about.

and since Worth famously reads all the threads on the message boards, secret message to Worth: I don't care if you reprint Force of Will
My opinion is that Modern is simply more popular now, for no logical reason other than it is, thus more players and more events.

I also wish Wizards would beef up support for eternal formats online.  I don't know what the solution is.  If they up the prizes for Legacy (and Classic), then they are giving special treatment and artificailly subsidizing the formats.  As seen with the Winter Celebration and Weekend Challenges from a few years ago, as soon as that subsidization goes away, so do the players.  Having big events that matter seems to help.  If players are working towards a Legacy MOCS or Online PTQ, they'll suddenly find the money to buy those FoWs they were complaining about.



Good stuff. I agree, Modern is the popular format right now and is the talk of the town. Even though modern sometimes barely fires DEs online, they do fire and consitently. Wotc is even holding a special modern PE this weekend. They also said they were going to reprint modern staples in their upcoming sets. With all the speculation going on regarding M13 and RTR, there is talk about the shocks being reprinted and/or Noble Hierarch. I would be excited if noble is reprinted online. I do already have a set online but they are around $20 each in paper so someone out there would benefit from a reprint. I don't see this kind of talk regarding Classic or Legacy.

It is vain to look for a defense against lightning. - Publius Syrus (42 B.C.) How can two people split a point that has no value? “You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else.” -Albert Einstein
Interesting discussions so far

I suppose my big question is what does Wotc need to do to convert the Paper Players into online ones? There are a whole lot of people who like Eternal formats enough to spend a bit of money on them in real life...

What If they added prize support to real life Legacy tournaments in the form of 4x sets of every card n MTGO? (or similar incentives)?


Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!
I asked the question over on the paper forums.  Now, I didn't see a lot of responses from competitive players there, so the answers might not be accurate, but the top answer was "price" followed by "mtgo sucks."

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
I'm sure I've posted these before somewhere, but I think these would be the things to help legacy.

1. Some Incentive to play:  Maybe just making it the MOCS format of the month would help, or maybe some sort of championship would, but a push to get players to buy legacy decks would be huge.

2.Make Alternate Art FOW a MOCS Promo:  I'm one of the few who thinks upholding the reserved list is a good thing, and for the same reasons I don't think FOW should be in another Master's Edition.  I value a company sticking to what they have stated, even if it is not always the best thing.  Putting it as a MOCS promo would shoot a whole lot more into the system.  I am not sure how many they are in the system now, but as a normal MOCS promo it would put 1500-2000 more FOW onto MTGO.  If that is to many, they could make it the promo for the POTY tournament where the top 150 Constructed and 150 Limited players are invited, being that a few will be in both that should put about 280 in.  That is one way, but a shot of FOW could be very nice.

3. Cube drafts should pay out Classic Sets: Cube drafts have been a great addition to MTGO, and paying out classic sets would help constructed formats too.  A rotation of the Masters Edition Sets, Mirage Block, Tempest Block, Urza's Block, Masques Block would help put a lot of these older tough to find cards into the system for legacy and classic players.  I also would think that they might maintain value a little bit better than TPF and not detract the few who could be detracted by bad value over the fun of cube.

4. Bring back Magic Online Legacy Series Decks:  Why new decks have been not been made really puzzles me.  The two decks that have been made (Boltslinger and Exiler) I saw everywhere for a while.  I've had games against each of them in the Casual room, Tournament Practice, 2-man Queue, and in a Daily Event.  Again, I don't have the data that WOTC does, but I would imagine they were successful.  Not only did the decks sell, but they sold many secondary market cards to go with them.  How many people bought the Exiler deck and then bought a Sword or a Mother of Runes?  I would assume that new editions of these decks would sell well, cause people to buy other cards and hopefully cause a lot of new players to try legacy classic.  Maybe even making them an annual thing would be a good thing for MTGO.  I would imagine Elves, Goblins, Merfolk, Affinity, Dredge, Storm, Mono Red Painter, Pox are among the decks that could join Burn and Death & Taxes in this series.
1 & 2 fine

3.  I think they will rotate the payout sets in the future, so I think you'll see this.  Nobody has any idea why they picked Time Spiral.  Maybe to get more Goyfs online, or maybe they throw darts at a board.  No matter which set they pick though, the secondary market value of its packs will go down because PEOPLE LOVE CUBE.
Personally I expect Ravnica next time, since we've got RTR in the fall.  BUt who knows.  And since it sounds like they are going to be doing cube/nixtix during the 2-week paper lag for the forseeable future, I think we'll see a few sets rotate through this.

4.  I think those Legacy decks came out because of the popularity of Legacy in 2010.  It's sort of a catch-22.  If Legacy isn't firing, those decks won't sell, even though decks like that help the format to fire.  Either way, Wizards has historically shown much more interest in helping out formats that are already thriving rather than trying to resuce unpopular ones.  

The argument that online legacy decks can be cheaper doesn't really hold with me, it *should* be cheaper, not everything needs to follow paper exactly.

As I have said, the main issues I see are:

Perception - Both on cost of cards and how the format actually is. FoW is really the only expensive card I have an issue with, mainly because it's such a staple card, I'm sure we will see ME3/4 nix tix/pax queues at some point which will help with the costs of the duals, but even if we do se ME1 queues again, that format is so absolutely aweful I don't know how much that will help. Some kind of promo injection of FoW would help because it they would either be sold by those who don't want them, or those that already have FoW will sell of either their promo or some of their others. One bonus of online is that you never need more than 4 of any card. Many of the other expensive cards are much more niche in that if you don't have them maybe it will be harder to play certain decks (LED in various combo decks) not having FoW means you *almost* can't play any blue deck (not quite that extreme but close)

Events firing - This is the biggest issue as far as I am concerned, I am sure that most people don't buy decks to play legacy because (as far as they can see) no-one plays legacy, its a circular problem, people wont buy into the format until people buy into the format. The prizes are a part of it, because why spend hundreds on a legacy deck when a pauper or standard deck wins the same prizes. Maybe the legacy DEs could either hand out legacy boosters as prizes, or have additional prizes of MEX draft sets, that can be used to enter any masters edition draft. Something to give people something for playing the format.

Random thought - On demand 8 player single elimination Legacy queue, awards some kind of QPs for a monthly Legacy champs (probably a point for entering, some for each match win and a good number for winning, so you aren't just rewarding those who already have the decks, otherwise people who never win will just give up) Have the champs give out promos, maybe a playable promo common/uncommon for qualifying, something for top 64 and foil of that something for top 8.

I don't think making legacy a MOCS format will help anything beyond that champs tournament, there would be a short boost, then nothing again. 
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Random thought - On demand 8 player single elimination Legacy queue, awards some kind of QPs for a monthly Legacy champs (probably a point for entering, some for each match win and a good number for winning, so you aren't just rewarding those who already have the decks, otherwise people who never win will just give up) Have the champs give out promos, maybe a playable promo common/uncommon for qualifying, something for top 64 and foil of that something for top 8.
 



I had mostly the same idea for classic... give them their own champs series that you had to qualify for... Prizes should include PIMP cards fo everyone who qualifies..

I think it is an idea that should be explored for te less popular formats.

Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!
I think the most important thing if you do something like that is to not completely top end the QP like in MOCS, you want people who are dipping their toes into the format to feel like they are making some progression, even if thats getting into the champs, getting a sweet alternate are and getting smashed there, hopefully it will give them some incentive to improve their deck etc.
I suppose my big question is what does Wotc need to do to convert the Paper Players into online ones?



My answer would be why do you think they would want to do that?
Free Speech
Free speech is the right to speak your mind without government censorship and without fear of extralegal retaliation like harassment or violence. That’s all! Free speech doesn’t include the right to speak your mind on any forum anywhere. The government may not prevent you from speaking, but private parties, like blog owners or corporations, aren’t required to let you use their property as your platform. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be believed or to be taken seriously. People may mock, ridicule or laugh at what you say, or they may reject it outright. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be listened to. People who don’t desire to hear your opinion can hang up on you, block you on social media, change the channel, close the browser tab. Free speech doesn’t give you the right to bombard people with harassing messages or otherwise force them to pay attention to you against their will. And free speech doesn’t include the right to suffer no consequences whatsoever for your expressed opinions.
I suppose my big question is what does Wotc need to do to convert the Paper Players into online ones?



My answer would be why do you think they would want to do that?



My answer will also be a question =): Would they be able to do that ?
- This is, honestly, a grotesque advantage. Noah Weil on scouting, an attorney from Seattle with 20 Pro Tour appearances.
I suppose my big question is what does Wotc need to do to convert the Paper Players into online ones?



My answer would be why do you think they would want to do that?



Let me change that to "get paper legacy players to ALSO play online" I think it should be obvious why they would want that... More money directly into their hands. 
Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!
I suppose my big question is what does Wotc need to do to convert the Paper Players into online ones?



My answer would be why do you think they would want to do that?



Let me change that to "get paper legacy players to ALSO play online" I think it should be obvious why they would want that... More money directly into their hands. 



Sure, but I already went into that in my first post in this thread... I don't see that happening anytime soon. Trying to make paper players also play online is just as futile as trying to make online players also play paper.

You must understand that MTGO and 'paper' have largely non-overlapping player bases, right? And that this is not just a marketing thing? The typical mtgo player is a 30+ adult with a job, other responsibilites, and basically more money than time to spend it in. In most cases a lapsed paper player, but one who will never return to paper play because the changed circumstances of his adult life just don't allow it.

A typical paper player is younger, early 20ies at most, who will very likely fall out of love with the game or just not have time for it anymore as soon as real life asserts itself. Some pockets of "play groups" remain (I know that my old paper group STILL plays every thursday) but they will stick to paper until it is no longer convenient.
Free Speech
Free speech is the right to speak your mind without government censorship and without fear of extralegal retaliation like harassment or violence. That’s all! Free speech doesn’t include the right to speak your mind on any forum anywhere. The government may not prevent you from speaking, but private parties, like blog owners or corporations, aren’t required to let you use their property as your platform. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be believed or to be taken seriously. People may mock, ridicule or laugh at what you say, or they may reject it outright. Free speech doesn’t include the right to be listened to. People who don’t desire to hear your opinion can hang up on you, block you on social media, change the channel, close the browser tab. Free speech doesn’t give you the right to bombard people with harassing messages or otherwise force them to pay attention to you against their will. And free speech doesn’t include the right to suffer no consequences whatsoever for your expressed opinions.
I suppose my big question is what does Wotc need to do to convert the Paper Players into online ones?



My answer would be why do you think they would want to do that?



Let me change that to "get paper legacy players to ALSO play online" I think it should be obvious why they would want that... More money directly into their hands. 



Sure, but I already went into that in my first post in this thread... I don't see that happening anytime soon. Trying to make paper players also play online is just as futile as trying to make online players also play paper.

You must understand that MTGO and 'paper' have largely non-overlapping player bases, right? And that this is not just a marketing thing? The typical mtgo player is a 30+ adult with a job, other responsibilites, and basically more money than time to spend it in. In most cases a lapsed paper player, but one who will never return to paper play because the changed circumstances of his adult life just don't allow it.

A typical paper player is younger, early 20ies at most, who will very likely fall out of love with the game or just not have time for it anymore as soon as real life asserts itself. Some pockets of "play groups" remain (I know that my old paper group STILL plays every thursday) but they will stick to paper until it is no longer convenient.



I have always been under the assumption that the typical Paper Legacy(or Vintage) player was also older and more like to have a job with a good income where they could afford things like having a duplicate set of online cards. Basically the exact kind of person who would appreciate MTGO. Maybe I am just totally off-base here... Since they stopped having Sealed PTQs in my area and doing Large Pre-Releases I haven't gone to many paper events, but every time I saw someone playing with Duals between rounds it was actually someone in my own age group

I'm also of the assumption that while there are quite a few people who are playing in the SCG opens that does not mean that there are  ton of places to play legacy IRL and certainly not 24/7.

I also think there must be plenty of people IRL who want to play legacy but cannot afford it... in which case... It would be great if they realized that it is cheaper online


Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!
...
I also think there must be plenty of people IRL who want to play legacy but cannot afford it... in which case... It would be great if they realized that it is cheaper online




Cheaper, yes, but not cheap.
I see a lot of post from players on other forums complaining about the cost of online Legacy/Classic staples.

Guess what? Chicken butt.

Unfortunately the winter celebration didn't help classic long term as the events stopped firing after the celebration ended. I am sort of at a loss at what with needs to do... There are plenty of people out there who love legacy (and vintage) what needs to be done to get them online??

I played in some of the winter celebration Classic events. But I have not been able to play in an event since. I have little time playing.
Finding time for playing with a family and work is not the easiest thing. Too bot the classic DE times aren't the friendliest for us Europeans.

So I'm just holding my classic cards in wait for Vintage basically, which I guess will get more players entering and firing events. Until then I'm trying to play classic league and things like that. But mostly now I just play Modern 1 vs 1 to get some games in.

Anything but nuts is crazy. - We need moar command helemet!

...
I also think there must be plenty of people IRL who want to play legacy but cannot afford it... in which case... It would be great if they realized that it is cheaper online




Cheaper, yes, but not cheap.
I see a lot of post from players on other forums complaining about the cost of online Legacy/Classic staples.



One thing I don't understand is the whole "Oh, paper legacy decks are expensive, so it's ok that online legacy ones are too" discussion.

I don't necessarily think that online legacy decks should all cost $5, but just because some cards are expensive offline, doesn't mean they need to be online as well. Hell, if online legacy was to magically become popular, would there actually be enough FoW/Duals/IPA and before cards/etc available to actually support it?

How many of these cards *actually* exist online?

Maybe that's a part of why Wizards isn't really pushing the formats much, they would have access to the numbers of some cards that exist and what would happen if they pushed the format too much. Regardless, I don't really think anything can happen to the format without Wizards getting involved with either some kind of special prize support for those formats, tournament support, something. Because let's face it, it's pretty hard to convince others to buy into what is for all intents and purposes, a dead format. Why spend hundreds on a competitive legacy deck when you can spend a fraction of that on a standard/modern deck and get the same results. Hell, in alot of ways Modern was one of the final nails for legacy, another eternal format with a much less steep (at least perceived) entry cost, both in $$ and in how legacy is pictured to most people (brutal, turn 2 wins etc) whether that is correct or not. 
The issue of some online cards being expensive has been discussed alot, along multiple axis. What it comes down to is that it's good for the online game if some cards retain value, just as it's good for the paper game.

If you do a direct comparison between legacy costs online vs paper, you will see that almost all of the cards online are SIGNIFIGANTLY cheaper. The few exceptions are, of course, the ones that people complain about.

The thing is, as I said previously, that some cards are always going to be expensive. If FoW was in oversupply then something else that was in shorter supply would go up to compensate. 

There are enough FoW available right now that if you wanted to buy them you could. The issue is NOT availibility. It's that many players don't want to pay the current cost, but there are always going to be a set of players for whom the cost is too much.
When I bought mine at 20, during release week, people thought they were too expensive. I told everybody I spoke to that they should get them now.
When they hit 45, people though that was a crazy price and a few players I know sold theit playsets because they had doubled/tripled their money.
And they just kept creeping up.
My point is that format staples are a known quantity; it's not like players didn't know that FoW was a 4x in most decks.

What the current cost does prohibit, however, is players from *dabbling* in the format. You can't spend a few bucks, play a few games and then jump ship to Modern as easily as you could from STD because the market for the Eternal cards is not as liquid. So you're required to put a little more time investment into Eternal.

But to me that's not a downside. I'd rather have a few players who are interested in long term play then 30 who are in it for a month. 

And you need to understand that part of the allure of Legacy and/or Classic over Modern (to some players) is that you get to play with some of the most powerful cards in the game. Do I get cast Tinker in Modern? Can I Balance?
When Power is released online, I'm not going to be able to throw Moxen into a Modern deck, am I?

Not everyone plays for EV or RoI. I play because I love to PLAY. And I love to use cards that I can't use anywhere else. That's also why I love Commander so much, btw. Seriously, I can play Chromium in that format. Or Stangg. How cool is that?

As per 'pushing' formats: So, WotC's attitude is generally that constructed formats (specifically those online) have to stand or fall on their own merits. Which is fair. They don't expect Classic/Legacy to put up the same numbers that Modern does. They understand that Eternal formats occupy a smaller niche.

Guess what? Chicken butt.

My question:  Do most classic players have just ONE deck they play with?

I tend to like to play different styles of decks and get bored playing the same deck over and over. 

This is a big part of the hesitancy for me of dropping that much money on one deck.
My question:  Do most classic players have just ONE deck they play with?

I tend to like to play different styles of decks and get bored playing the same deck over and over. 

This is a big part of the hesitancy for me of dropping that much money on one deck.


Usually, no.
Most Classic players have the cards to run multiple decks.
The most active players are able to build pretty much all of the top decks, even if a particular player favors one particular deck above others.

I can build any deck, although I prefer to play oddball stuff like HelmLine.
It takes an investment in time, and money. But as you get better you win packs which help mitigate the cost of what you spend, just like any constructed format. The nice thing about Classic/Legacy vs STD is that you hold your cards almost forever, so you don't take a bath on them like you would when selling off STD staples when the format rotates.

Guess what? Chicken butt.