Essentials Avenger?

21 posts / 0 new
Last post
Why was there no essentials avenger?  Or player options avenger?
Pelor don't want me for a sunbeam. No sunbeams aren't made out of me...
Because they stoped putting effort into fourth edition?
'cuz the avenger is simply too unfathomably awesome to be put into that . . . thing known as Essentials.

Your friendly neighborhood Revenant Minotaur Half-Blooded Dragonborn Fighter Hybrid Barbarian Multiclassing into Warlord

IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1223957875/Scorecards/Landscape.png)

Essentials was the first push to try and bring back grognards and the people who left for Paizo, among these people as far as I can see the "holy assassin using divine power to do the Church's dirty business" doesn't appear in their fantasy literature or if they're willing to accept such a concept they're quick to say "multi-class/hybridize a rogue with a paladin and you're done".
Essentials was the first push to try and bring back grognards and the people who left for Paizo, among these people as far as I can see the "holy assassin using divine power to do the Church's dirty business" doesn't appear in their fantasy literature or if they're willing to accept such a concept they're quick to say "multi-class/hybridize a rogue with a paladin and you're done".


Putting aside the fact that that build (if in 3e) would be one of the most convoluted MAD builds ever.

Your friendly neighborhood Revenant Minotaur Half-Blooded Dragonborn Fighter Hybrid Barbarian Multiclassing into Warlord

IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1223957875/Scorecards/Landscape.png)

Essentials was the first push to try and bring back grognards and the people who left for Paizo, among these people as far as I can see the "holy assassin using divine power to do the Church's dirty business" doesn't appear in their fantasy literature or if they're willing to accept such a concept they're quick to say "multi-class/hybridize a rogue with a paladin and you're done".


Putting aside the fact that that build (if in 3e) would be one of the most convoluted MAD builds ever.


 Not really - there were actually two different prestige classes released for multiclass paladin/rogues in 3.5....


Show

I am the Magic Man.

(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.)

 

I am the Lawnmower Man.

(I AM GOD HERE!)

 

I am the Skull God.

(Koo Koo Ka Choo)

 

There are reasons they call me Mad...

Essentials was the first push to try and bring back grognards and the people who left for Paizo, among these people as far as I can see the "holy assassin using divine power to do the Church's dirty business" doesn't appear in their fantasy literature or if they're willing to accept such a concept they're quick to say "multi-class/hybridize a rogue with a paladin and you're done".


Putting aside the fact that that build (if in 3e) would be one of the most convoluted MAD builds ever.

Or just straight Paladin wiyh a heavy smite focus. 

Avengers are basically the hunt down evil part of the paladin refluffed, and thee 4E paladin if the defend the faithful parts. 

Essentials was the first push to try and bring back grognards and the people who left for Paizo, among these people as far as I can see the "holy assassin using divine power to do the Church's dirty business" doesn't appear in their fantasy literature or if they're willing to accept such a concept they're quick to say "multi-class/hybridize a rogue with a paladin and you're done".


Putting aside the fact that that build (if in 3e) would be one of the most convoluted MAD builds ever.


 Not really - there were actually two different prestige classes released for multiclass paladin/rogues in 3.5....




What did those prestige classes do to offset the fact that a paladin/rogue needs decent scores in strength, dexterity, charisma, and wisdom (and even intelligence if you wanted to have a half-decent assortment of skills)?

Your friendly neighborhood Revenant Minotaur Half-Blooded Dragonborn Fighter Hybrid Barbarian Multiclassing into Warlord

IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1223957875/Scorecards/Landscape.png)

I'd heavly argue against the Avenger being a paladin refluffed. You don't really use strength or charisma (you might have a decent strength if you are MCing into fighter for a PP) for anything and visually your a dude in robes focused on killing one foe rather than protecting your allies/tanking damage. You don't get many anti-undead powers (you get lots of radiant if you build for it, but thats different in my opinion) and you can have all kinds of mobility even if you aren't a pursuing avenger.

Mechanically, I would like to see some more avenger options published or if they could tweak it so that it has access to paladin or cleric class feats in the same sense the executioner gets to try all those tasty martial feats.
Lovely, forum ate my post. Here is my suggestion for make an Essentials Avenger


1) Take a slayer


2) Remove armour proficiencies, give Armour of Faith. You may need to adust some of the Slayer's heavy armour bonuses to apply to Armour of Faith instead. Give Holy Symbol proficiency. Probably adust skills too. Also you count as an Avenger instead of a Fighter for feats and powers et.

3) Remove  the Dex from the slayer's striker feature, give Oath of Emnity.

4) Change stats to some combo of Wis, Int, Dex. You probably want Dex to be your attack stat since physicial stats to attack are more "old school". You want your MBA's to use whatever stat you choose to attack with.


5) Replace Power Strike with Holy Smite (maybe remove Daze). Any feats or class features that effect power strike effecting an opponent effect Holy Smite when the attack that triggered it hits (like how the daze works)


6) Reflavour Stances as Seals, Oaths, Censures. You are a divine class instead of/as well as a martial class.


7) Create feat to swap out one usage of Holy Smite for a Avenger encounter power.


4&5 are probably the tricky spots as they effect your main ability to deal damage. That said, unless you optimize like heck, you aren't likely to become over powered.
Damn Janx,

that is awesome.
Damn Janx,

that is awesome.



Thank you, it came to me while reading this thread.


The reason why I suggest removing the Daze from Holy Smite is because if you wield an axe, at level 7 Power Strike, or  in this case, Holy Smite, also knocks the target prone. Daze+Prone 4 times an encounter is very powerful.

I suppose the Daze could be replaced with ongoing radiant damage, like the Blackguard's Dread Smite.
Damn Janx,

that is awesome.



Thank you, it came to me while reading this thread.


The reason why I suggest removing the Daze from Holy Smite is because if you wield an axe, at level 7 Power Strike, or  in this case, Holy Smite, also knocks the target prone. Daze+Prone 4 times an encounter is very powerful.

I suppose the Daze could be replaced with ongoing radiant damage, like the Blackguard's Dread Smite.


Actually, yeah, using Dread Smite as a model would work much better.  Make it Radiant and necrotic, rather than cold and necrotic (cf. Painful Oath), and require the target to be oathed first.  Works nicely.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I worked up an E-venger after reading this thread. If anyone could tell me how to get it from a word doc to the forums without making a mess I can post it.

Cry Havoc!  And let slip the hogs of war!

It can probably go to Google Docs easier.


Anyway, a few more thoughts.


1) Despite my previous suggestion that you use Dex to attack, I'm gonna say Wisdom is a better choice. As is, the slayer depends primarrily on Dex because its for its striker feature, because we removed this in our E-Avenger, the Avenger no longer really has a secondary stat. If we make Wisdom, what seems to be the "Divine class" stat most of the time, the primary ability, the player can then choose to use either Dexterity or Int for their AC. This also flows better for Avenger utility powers as well as one of the Slayer stances we are borrowing. It also keeps Wisdom important for Avengers, outside of just abusing thought #2.


2) Painful Oath itself is sort of a mini-issue, as it allows the E-Avenger to "get back" the 2nd ability mod to damage that we removed from the slayer in exchange for Oath of Emnity. Luckily its only 1/round, so its not quite as persistant, but it leaves the possibility of the E-Avenger out performing the Slayer.


3)I concur with thespaceinvader with Dread Smite being a better model to follow.
Lovely, forum ate my post. Here is my suggestion for make an Essentials Avenger


1) Take a slayer


2) Remove armour proficiencies, give Armour of Faith. You may need to adust some of the Slayer's heavy armour bonuses to apply to Armour of Faith instead. Give Holy Symbol proficiency. Probably adust skills too. Also you count as an Avenger instead of a Fighter for feats and powers et.

3) Remove  the Dex from the slayer's striker feature, give Oath of Emnity.

4) Change stats to some combo of Wis, Int, Dex. You probably want Dex to be your attack stat since physicial stats to attack are more "old school". You want your MBA's to use whatever stat you choose to attack with.


5) Replace Power Strike with Holy Smite (maybe remove Daze). Any feats or class features that effect power strike effecting an opponent effect Holy Smite when the attack that triggered it hits (like how the daze works)


6) Reflavour Stances as Seals, Oaths, Censures. You are a divine class instead of/as well as a martial class.


7) Create feat to swap out one usage of Holy Smite for a Avenger encounter power.



4&5 are probably the tricky spots as they effect your main ability to deal damage. That said, unless you optimize like heck, you aren't likely to become over powered.


Sounds like an awfully weak class.

Without the slayer's damage feature you're just dishing out weak basic attacks and that's it. OoE makes an avenger deal damage because it helps him to land his encounter and daily powers, if all he has are MBAs (and the occasional holy smite), OoE won't save the class

This is a good point, actually.  I'd wonder about a striker feature based on the Ironwrought encounter power - E-OoE becomes 'roll twice, if either hits, you hit, if both hit, add 1/2/3dX extra damage 1/turn/round/whatever seems most balanced - and then tack on Dread Smite on top, which is very damaging because it auto-damages, so no chance to miss at all, and you probably have something.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Sounds like an awfully weak class.

Without the slayer's damage feature you're just dishing out weak basic attacks and that's it. OoE makes an avenger deal damage because it helps him to land his encounter and daily powers, if all he has are MBAs (and the occasional holy smite), OoE won't save the class




I suppose, note however that I only suggested removing the DEX MOD from the striker feature, the slayer still gets a static damage bonus. It also still has stances to augment its MBA's.


The Avenger still also gets Painful Oath at level 11 where a slayer doesn't.


We could simply add the Dex mod damage back if both OoE rolls hit, similar to what spaceinvader suggested.

We could also give them their censures back instead.  
Sounds like an awfully weak class.

Without the slayer's damage feature you're just dishing out weak basic attacks and that's it. OoE makes an avenger deal damage because it helps him to land his encounter and daily powers, if all he has are MBAs (and the occasional holy smite), OoE won't save the class





I suppose, note however that I only suggested removing the DEX MOD from the striker feature, the slayer still gets a static damage bonus.


Oh, then I misunderstood you.


Essentials-style Avenger

Made for personal home use, but here it is.  Lemme know what you think.

edit:  Posted a thread in Homebrew Forums for this. 

Cry Havoc!  And let slip the hogs of war!

Essentials was the first push to try and bring back grognards and the people who left for Paizo, among these people as far as I can see the "holy assassin using divine power to do the Church's dirty business" doesn't appear in their fantasy literature or if they're willing to accept such a concept they're quick to say "multi-class/hybridize a rogue with a paladin and you're done".



Gods but that's bad thinking....

Anyway, the executioner mc avenger with a power swap to grap more uses of Oath, and maybe the covenent agent PP makes an essentials avenger pretty well.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome