D&D Next Problems

Just some general problems after playtest from 12 year DM / Game-Master-Of-Many-RPGs and group of dedicated players to the hobby...

1. NO XP RULES MENTIONED! - on last night game we didn't know is XP for enocunters is to get to every PC, or splited between them. BIG problem.

2. No Aligment even mentioned in "How to Play" - even if all players known the system, I myself was suprised to see them in stats of monster. Even only menitoned in next iteration of playtest would be good, to know it repercusions.

3. Suprise rules - the flat -20 on Initative isn't cool and only makes mess in rooster. Certin Advantage/Disadvantage should be applied here. Even with odds and many disadnatages, supriser should have onfirst action Advantage, and suprised, even with many advanateges, should have Disadvantage. You are, after all, suprised, isn;t it? If both parties suprised - both get Disadvantage.

4. Armour - heavy armour isn't penelzizde your Dexterity. On the other hand, so low diffrance in AC makes taking heavy armour unattractive - you loose dexterity mod and you only get 1 point of AC.  

5. Combat manouvers and Advantage/Disadvantage - charge, group atack, atack of oportunity, etc.

6. Monsters are too weak / PCs are to strong - I understand that Goblins or even Hobgoblins hsould go wth one attack of 1stlevel charcters. But when 5 PCs on 1st level kill Ogre without any serious wound, I think it's problem...

7. ... especialy as one of them has Ray of Frost as minor spell - in now version, Ray of Forst is immobilizng target when hit on the AC.But clearly, spellshould be on Dextertiy Saving Throw. In now version it's just too powerful.

8. Clerics can't change they spells in to healings - wierd one, cause healing spells are fundamnet of this class. PCs shold focus on other prayers to gods ( i.e. spells ) and revert to healing only if they needed.

9. Illogical equipment - like Cleric of Pelor didn't have mace, only quaterstuff.

10. Long rest - Is it only me to see that long rest with "full HP and all HD" is too much?! Think of it on long term - at levels 5-10 it will be redciulous when you fight couple of hours, lost tens of HPs, go to sleep on 8 hours and you are totally heal?! I would try to let long rest made 1/3 of HPs and full HD, so to truly "cure", character would need to spend 3 consequential days. And this is still to "movie-like" to me...


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1. NO XP RULES MENTIONED! - on last night game we didn't know is XP for enocunters is to get to every PC, or splited between them. BIG problem.



It's not a HUGE problem since when you look at the numbers it becomes obvious the experience is the total amount to be split among the party members. (eg There are encounters which have over 2000 exp reward listed which if you gave that amount to every character would instantly level them from 1st to second level. Clearly that amount is supposed to be divided up among the characters in the party.)

But yes, for clarity the module should explicitly say something like "the experience reward is the amount of experience to be split evenly among characters in the party after they defeat the encounter." 

3. Suprise rules - the flat -20 on Initative isn't cool and only makes mess in rooster. Certin Advantage/Disadvantage should be applied here. Even with odds and many disadnatages, supriser should have onfirst action Advantage, and suprised, even with many advanateges, should have Disadvantage. You are, after all, suprised, isn;t it? If both parties suprised - both get Disadvantage.



On the flip side going last in the first round of combat is already a pretty big disadvantage since you will take attacks from all the opponents before you even get to do anything. Adding in advantage/disadvantage might be overkill. (Or it might not be, I won't pretend to have analyzed the numbers or anything. I'm just saying it's not immediately obvious that there needs to be an additional bonus for surprise other than automatically going first.)

5. Combat manouvers and Advantage/Disadvantage - charge, group atack, atack of oportunity, etc.



Sorry, I'm not sure what you were you trying to say here. Are you saying there needs to be rules for charging and attacks of opprotunity and group attacks?

If so I agree there should be something that provides incentive for combatants to not just walk past each other ignoring hand to hand combat. My suggestion has been that there be a rule something like this: if you are adjacent to an enemy during your turn and you move away from that enemy and attack another opponent then you have disadvantage on the attack. For example if you are next to an orc during your turn, move away from the orc and attack a goblin, then you have disadvantage. This rule would achieve similar results to opportunity actions but without introducing out-of-turn dice rolls and out-of-turn damage.

7. ... especialy as one of them has Ray of Frost as minor spell - in now version, Ray of Forst is immobilizng target when hit on the AC.But clearly, spellshould be on Dextertiy Saving Throw. In now version it's just too powerful.



I agree that Ray of Frost should be a Dexterity saving throw instead of an attack roll against AC. Why would heavy armor prevent ice from forming around your legs and feet if the ray touches you?

As far as the spell being too powerful, that's independent of the fact it uses an attack roll. It would essentially be just as powerful using a Dexterity save as using the attack roll vs AC. Clearly the spell is really useful against a solo opponent who has limited ranged attacks, but outside of that situation it's not necessarily nearly as useful as simply doing, say, magic missile over and over.

I think one possible change that might be a good compromise would be to make it be based on the target's hit points, similar to how Hold Person and Charm Person are keyed to the target's hit points. So against a high hit point opponent Ray of Frost reduces movement speed by -5 or -10 but doesn't reduce it to zero, for instance, while against low hit point opponents the speed is reduce to zero.  

8. Clerics can't change they spells in to healings - wierd one, cause healing spells are fundamnet of this class.



You misread how cleric spells work in DDN. Clerics cast spells like 3e sorcerers cast spells, ie the cleric can cast any spell they know any time they want in any combination they want by spending the appropriate spell slot. In other words unlike wizards clerics don't assign specific spells to their spell slots, they can cast whatever they want on the fly. So DDN clerics can already do exactly the sort of spell swapping you're talking about.
  
10. Long rest - Is it only me to see that long rest with "full HP and all HD" is too much?!...



Remember that hit points aren't physical damage in DDN. You only take a serious physical injury if you are knocked to zero hit points, and if you are current at or below zero hit points you can't take a long rest at all. If you're unconcious and have nobody to heal you it takes 2d6 hours before you recover and wake up with one hit point. So the only way you can take a long rest is if you are already above zero hit points which means that you've already mostly physically recovered from whatever debilitating injury you suffered.

So going from one hit point to full in one day is not "too much", all it reflects is that you are going from being "tired" to "not being tired". The harder physical recovery is going from zero hit points to one hit point.  

But yes, for clarity the module should explicitly say something like "the experience reward is the amount of experience to be split evenly among characters in the party after they defeat the encounter." 

 

Thanks for asserting me the PCs don't go up a 1st level after 4 hours of play. 

 Adding in advantage/disadvantage might be overkill. (Or it might not be, I won't pretend to have analyzed the numbers or anything. I'm just saying it's not immediately obvious that there needs to be an additional bonus for surprise other than automatically going first.)



Not adding - replacing "-20 on Intiative". It's more logical to me, esspecialy as you are suprdies only on ONE, concrete atacker, not any one particiapiting in fight.

Are you saying there needs to be rules for charging and attacks of opprotunity and group attacks?



Exactly. 

If so I agree there should be something that provides incentive for combatants to not just walk past each other ignoring hand to hand combat. My suggestion has been that there be a rule something like this: if you are adjacent to an enemy during your turn and you move away from that enemy and attack another opponent then you have disadvantage on the attack. For example if you are next to an orc during your turn, move away from the orc and attack a goblin, then you have disadvantage. This rule would achieve similar results to opportunity actions but without introducing out-of-turn dice rolls and out-of-turn damage.



Great idea, will try it on next session. 

I think one possible change that might be a good compromise would be to make it be based on the target's hit points, similar to how Hold Person and Charm Person are keyed to the target's hit points. So against a high hit point opponent Ray of Frost reduces movement speed by -5 or -10 but doesn't reduce it to zero, for instance, while against low hit point opponents the speed is reduce to zero. 



Interesting idea to think of it. Will consult with my spellcasters players and see what can we do with that.
  

You misread how cleric spells work in DDN.



Great for pointin it out - my clerics players will be happy with this news.  

Remember that hit points aren't physical damage in DDN. You only take a serious physical injury if you are knocked to zero hit points, and if you are current at or below zero hit points you can't take a long rest at all. If you're unconcious and have nobody to heal you it takes 2d6 hours before you recover and wake up with one hit point. So the only way you can take a long rest is if you are already above zero hit points which means that you've already mostly physically recovered from whatever debilitating injury you suffered.

So going from one hit point to full in one day is not "too much", all it reflects is that you are going from being "tired" to "not being tired". The harder physical recovery is going from zero hit points to one hit point.  



I had an issue with this level of abstraction. This looks like character can be bristling with arrows like a porcupine and be "oh, it's a scratch" until you get zero HP and then one axe attack or magic missle do "I'm dying!". To low diffrance in runing the health of character... Undecided
I love how the new Cleric casts "spells." It feels a lot more like 3e and a lot less like 4e, which is good. My group has always gone to the next edition out of a love for trying new things. 4e was a big disappointment in some ways, but fun in other ways. Unfortunately, 4e's biggist let-down was how unflexible it was. Everyone felt like they were playing the same video game instead of unique characters in a unique setting. I think DnD Next is bringing this back.

1. NO XP RULES MENTIONED! - on last night game we didn't know is XP for enocunters is to get to every PC, or splited between them. BIG problem.



It's not a HUGE problem since when you look at the numbers it becomes obvious the experience is the total amount to be split among the party members. (eg There are encounters which have over 2000 exp reward listed which if you gave that amount to every character would instantly level them from 1st to second level. Clearly that amount is supposed to be divided up among the characters in the party.)

But yes, for clarity the module should explicitly say something like "the experience reward is the amount of experience to be split evenly among characters in the party after they defeat the encounter." 

 

My player also point out, if it's true, there should be roleplaying and sidequest awards. Like they escorted pair of marchant from hobgoblins jailto village - how much X should be for that. How many XP I should consider to give after session?

Also... 

11. Dwarven Fighter is just too powerfull in comparison to other PCs - my players easily just did 19 Damage to Ogre - whithout Critical Hit! 
Remember that hit points aren't physical damage in DDN. You only take a serious physical injury if you are knocked to zero hit points, and if you are current at or below zero hit points you can't take a long rest at all. If you're unconcious and have nobody to heal you it takes 2d6 hours before you recover and wake up with one hit point. So the only way you can take a long rest is if you are already above zero hit points which means that you've already mostly physically recovered from whatever debilitating injury you suffered.

So going from one hit point to full in one day is not "too much", all it reflects is that you are going from being "tired" to "not being tired". The harder physical recovery is going from zero hit points to one hit point.  



I had an issue with this level of abstraction. This looks like character can be bristling with arrows like a porcupine and be "oh, it's a scratch" until you get zero HP and then one axe attack or magic missle do "I'm dying!". To low diffrance in runing the health of character... Undecided



Glad you liked my other replies. Smile

As far as healing, the quicker healing doesn't really both me personally but I get that you want a finer gradation reflecting physical damage.

One possible rule might be to introduce wound points. It could work something like this:

Every time a character is reduced to zero hit points they gain one wound point reflecting that they've suffered a physical wound which will take a while to heal and which will impact their combat effectiveness. Whenever a character takes a long rest, if they any wound points, then they reduce their wound points by one and only heal to half their maximum hit points and half their hit dice (rounded down). If they have no additional wound points then they heal to full hit points and full hit dice as normal.

Thus the more often you take major physical debilitating injuries by going to zero hit points the longer it takes you to fully recover.  Once you've gotten rid of all your wound points you're assumed to have recovered from the worst of the physical portion of your injuries and the remaining hit point loss is just minor bruises and fatigue, etc.


Obviously this sort of system is a little more complicated than the standard healing rules in the playtest but it might offer a nice compromise if you're looking for a grittier feel for healing physical damage.
I got next problem...


1. NO XP RULES MENTIONED! - on last night game we didn't know is XP for enocunters is to get to every PC, or splited between them. BIG problem.



This problem expanded. My player point out I should be giving roleplay awards and sidequest ( they freed two hobgoblins prisoners ), but now I don't have any clue how much to give PCs XP for that. 

As to too much HP problem, I found this on "short rest/long rest" topic....


 Let's borrow your idea of a "wound" (Though I like the term "injury" better) every time you drop below zero hitpoints. I also wouldn't mind seeing "wounds" being accumulated every time you take more than half your total hitpoints in one hit but that's niether here nor there. How about every time you accumulate a "wound", you lose one HD. This loss is permanent until, as you say, the character rests for one full day per "wound". A character could still continue adventuring, while wounded, but would be start into a "death spiral" only in that his "work day" would become progressively shorter. Something that, I feel, would represent the abstract nature of hitpoints as things like endurance and morale. Yes you can soldier on through the wounds but they're -eventually- going to bring you down unless you rest up fully.

 This would also allow for a more Heroic feeling at later levels through having more HD. You could press on through more injuries.

 

Great idea, it nicely complete with short rests, but also encourage to make longer rests in village, whitch in turn means players once going to dungeons WILL STAY THERE LONGER - no more "24-second workday".
As for procupines with arrows, I don't narrate it that way in DnD Next.  Since they say loss of hit points are just scartches, when someone hits with an arrow or bolt, I say the bolt grazes them, or punches them in the gut and gets deflected by the armor.  Or the arrows flies so close, they get their nerves rattled.

When they go down to 0 hp, I tell them that the arrow pierced them, and they fall down dead.

with the low HP values of the monsters, this tends to happen quickly  

We had a problem with Turn Undead rules. As the monsters provided in the module hasn't stats, we didn't know the Wisdom value for the Saving Throw (in fact, we didn't know the ability value for any check or contest). Also, clerics in the new rules seems to just turn ALL undead in their area, regardless the undead type or number or hp or level. So two level 1 clerics just turned docens of undead like it was nothing. This has no sense.

As for procupines with arrows, I don't narrate it that way in DnD Next.  Since they say loss of hit points are just scartches, when someone hits with an arrow or bolt, I say the bolt grazes them, or punches them in the gut and gets deflected by the armor.  Or the arrows flies so close, they get their nerves rattled.


So you just "scratches" monsters with your sword dealing 5 Damage that kills goblins? Cause to me it's TOTALLY illogical. Especially as character have later about 50 to even 100 HPs. I can envision Conan the Barbarian style "this wounds are only scrathes for me", but it's based on his willpower. After major battles he is all covered in blood with many cuts that would killed normal men. Even then - they get those wounds by weapons of enemy, not "wait a minute I must rest, becuase your sword is so sharp".

This is how medival baesd combat looks like ( Clip from 1:38 )
[video=1498921]
You misread how cleric spells work in DDN.



Both the Wizard Character Sheet and the Cleric Character Sheets have an entry entitled Spell Preperation.

Both The Cleric Character Sheets and the Wizard Character Sheet (under Casting a Spell) clearly state that you may cast one of your Prepared Spells.

This means that spells must be prepared after a long rest and not cast 'on the fly.'  This perturbed the player playing the Wizard, but he assumed that Charisma Based Spell Casters would be getting the ability to cast 'on the fly.'

*Edited for clarity
Wow.
Don't we all play VERY differently !

The Ogre basically wiped out the group and th Goblins captures 3 out of first in the first encounter !

To me combat was pretty brutal and I had to tame it down ... wich I did.
My players also began talking more/fighting less ...

As for healing ?
The rules were indeed a bit much to me .. so I changed them, letting the characters recover their CON bonus instead.

What I loved with the kit was to find again this 3rd Edition flavour as others mentioned as well as seing  the good old "don't like a rule cange it or ignore it"

As for XPs .. well they are noted by encounter and the rest is up to you.

Maybe I'm too old and fell into bad habits but the lack of a rule never bothered me and what I saw so far makes me (and my players) want to see more !
They have been beaten, crushed, captured, beaten again and they are eager to see what happens next.
They'll have to wait at least another week for that though

 
The ogre really laid into our group. Killed the dwarven fighter on a single hit (max damage). He was down a few HP from being hit by a goblin the round before. The dwarven cleric nearly died as did the cleric of Pelor who also got nailed by his third attack. 
2. No Aligment even mentioned in "How to Play" - even if all players known the system, I myself was suprised to see them in stats of monster. Even only menitoned in next iteration of playtest would be good, to know it repercusions.

I don't where alignment actually does anything in this ruleset.
Even if it remains entirely optional in the finished 5e, it is still handy to have in monster statblocks.
As for procupines with arrows, I don't narrate it that way in DnD Next.  Since they say loss of hit points are just scartches, when someone hits with an arrow or bolt, I say the bolt grazes them, or punches them in the gut and gets deflected by the armor.  Or the arrows flies so close, they get their nerves rattled.


So you just "scratches" monsters with your sword dealing 5 Damage that kills goblins? Cause to me it's TOTALLY illogical. Especially as character have later about 50 to even 100 HPs. 




Perhaps you didn't read over the rules about hitpoints in the game.

From 0 - 50% damage, you are  barely injured, not even scratches.  From 50-99% damage, you have scratches and scrapes and bruises.  At 0 hitpoints, you take a serious incapacitating injury and are dying if not healed.  At some negetive value, you are dead.

If your sword does the first 6 damage, to a 5 hp monster, then you have killed the monster.
If your sword does the first  6 damage to a monster with 100 hp, then you have merely caused some fatigue. 

If your sword does the last 6 damage to any monster, then you have caused a serious injury, likely killing it.

Wow.
Don't we all play VERY differently !

The Ogre basically wiped out the group and th Goblins captures 3 out of first in the first encounter !

To me combat was pretty brutal and I had to tame it down ... wich I did.
My players also began talking more/fighting less ... 



Okay, that means my players were very lucky. Even then - disgners should look on the problem of Ogre having 88 HP. In third editon he was having twice less, if I remeber correctly...


As for healing ?
The rules were indeed a bit much to me .. so I changed them, letting the characters recover their CON bonus instead.



Well, I don't have a problem with short rests - they are good as they are, thematiclly short brief "second breath". It's good. But the long rests make the players will go "24-second" rest. Even there, for me having them rest whole HP seems... too much. One day and dwarven fighter with 100 HP is good as new? Even for fantasy it's a bit to good, don't you think?


What I loved with the kit was to find again this 3rd Edition flavour as others mentioned as well as seing  the good old "don't like a rule cange it or ignore it"



I'm Game Master with about 12 year of expiriance and many RPGs and sessions run - I know this rule on and out. The problem I got is I shouldn't be needing to use this. This playtest kit should be made so newbie GMs could try use the rules themselves - it doesn't. Also I'm playtesting the game as written - even before the session my players and I have some concerns but I told them "Guys, we are taking part in beta testing Next D&D to not run game as we want, but to see what need to be polished and fixed so normal rules will be better". And so we try to play with rules as written.

As for XPs .. well they are noted by encounter and the rest is up to you.


You see, this IS a problem -cause I don't have frame of referance to it. In Savage Worlds or new World of Darkness you got "typicaly, players should get a X expieriance points per session" - I can then estimate how good players in roleplaying or solving the in-game problems. In D&D we don't have this. We have the number of XP per encounter. Even in 3(.5) ed I have a problem with that - how much good roleplaying compares to killing one goblin. Or saving the princess to outsmarting the dragon? I can make some random number as I have expiriance and I know PCs shouldn't go up a level in only one session - but newbie DMs don't know it. Even I would be pleased if some advice would be, because of metagaming aproche of D&D as whole system.

2. No Aligment even mentioned in "How to Play" - even if all players known the system, I myself was suprised to see them in stats of monster. Even only menitoned in next iteration of playtest would be good, to know it repercusions.

I don't where alignment actually does anything in this ruleset.
Even if it remains entirely optional in the finished 5e, it is still handy to have in monster statblocks.



As I menitoned - new DMs and players. On my playtest I was having one player who NEVER played D&D, two who never played before 4ed. Even if I was knowing about aligments with my other players, easily I imagined someone could have a problem to know what it is. And you don't tell me this need to be very long entry - just explaine shortly Law-Chaos and Good-Evil Axis. Two pargraphes max. Andthen new DMs and players can easily run it.  

Perhaps you didn't read over the rules about hitpoints in the game.

From 0 - 50% damage, you are  barely injured, not even scratches.  From 50-99% damage, you have scratches and scrapes and bruises.  At 0 hit points, you take a serious incapacitating injury and are dying if not healed.  At some negative value, you are dead.

If your sword does the first 6 damage, to a 5 hp monster, then you have killed the monster.
If your sword does the first  6 damage to a monster with 100 hp, then you have merely caused some fatigue. 

If your sword does the last 6 damage to any monster, then you have caused a serious injury, likely killing it.


I always had a problem with that on D&D – how can I “take some HPs and not give a wound”. Probably it’s effect of playing 2nd AD&D cRPGs like Baldurs Gate, Ice Wind Dale or Planescape: Torment. There each bloody attack get part of HPs, not making fatuige.


Even there – I can envision how sword can take some fatuge on victim, as she dodge. But how can arrow or Magic Missle? They just hit you and doesn’t care if you are on “first 50% HP or second”. How can somehow describe it to me in any believable way?


 

You misread how cleric spells work in DDN.



Both the Wizard Character Sheet and the Cleric Character Sheets have an entry entitled Spell Preperation.

Both The Cleric Character Sheets and the Wizard Character Sheet (under Casting a Spell) clearly state that you may cast one of your Prepared Spells.

This means that spells must be prepared after a long rest and not cast 'on the fly.'  This perturbed the player playing the Wizard, but he assumed that Charisma Based Spell Casters would be getting the ability to cast 'on the fly.'

*Edited for clarity


Yes, the "Spell Preparation" section states you prepare one of each of your spells as a cleric. However, the "Casing a Spell" section clearly states that you cast one of your prepared spells and it uses up one of your spell slots for the day. So at 1st level, the Pelor Cleric can cast two spells per day out of the three prepared in any combination (1 each of two of them or 2 of the same spell). I suspect that then the rules are finalized, this will be worded better with examples to make it easier to understand, but it is clear that Cleric spell casting is meant to function as Sorcerers in 3.x - you have a pool of spells you can cast and decide what spell slot to use when the spell is cast.

And now for something completely different...

The hit point system can be abstracted any way the DM and the group chooses. Personally, I view hits that don't drop the creature in question as grazing blows that cause minor cuts/scratches/bruises, a muscle strain dodging the attack, or even a flesh wound. So you're hit by an arrow and take 7HP damage when you have 12HP, the  arrow strikes you in your thigh or arm. That same hit on the same area of a kobold or goblin would be fatal as they are smaller and weaker, thus unable to survive a hit like that. A blow from a sword or mace that causes the same 7HP damage would, to a creature with 12HP, be a slice on the arm or stomach or a massive bruise. The same blow would do cause more harm to a weak opponent due to lesser armor or, again, more internal damage due to a smaller size so the damage is more widespread and more likely to affect a critical organ.

To be fair, I agree than recovering all HP and HD is a bit much and I'd prefer being able to roll your max HD to recover HP during a long rest as well as getting your HD back. It adds randomness to long-term recovery and can force the PCs to return to a "home base" to recover for a few days or a week. Or the players getting back 1/4 of their HP. It adds more drama as the players may have to choose between pushing forward with lowered HP or taking more time to heal but giving the enemies a chance to regroup and make things more difficult for them. But I have no problems with abstracting the HP system as, well, it's something that's had to be abstracted since the game was made. Just like attack rolls or the ability to fight effectively with an axe or large sword in a corridor only 5 feet wide or why a wizard can only cast a certain number of spells per day because they "forget" them and can't just re-read the cliff's notes to cast it again or any of the other mechanics or odd limitations built into the game as balance. If you can't learn to abstract game mechanics, I don't think tabletop RPGs are the hobby for you.

To be fair, I agree than recovering all HP and HD is a bit much and I'd prefer being able to roll your max HD to recover HP during a long rest as well as getting your HD back. It adds randomness to long-term recovery and can force the PCs to return to a "home base" to recover for a few days or a week. Or the players getting back 1/4 of their HP. It adds more drama as the players may have to choose between pushing forward with lowered HP or taking more time to heal but giving the enemies a chance to regroup and make things more difficult for them.



I hopes the designers are reading this, cause it's basicly what I was having in my mind as feedback - I proposed 1/3 of HD in HP for long rest, but likes whole HD roll better. You don't know how good rest will be each time - so you would ensure youre priest or "home base" one would favour a prayer or two to heal you.  

If you can't learn to abstract game mechanics, I don't think tabletop RPGs are the hobby for you.


Sir, don't run to far. Because you are now just trolling and looking for argue were it isn't need. Like I said, I always had a problem with HPs cause I started to run D&D as my first RPG, at age 12. Even then - I didn't have a problem with abstracting, only needing to abstract the hits. When nWoD came out, it's Health systm was totally natural one to me, even if it was based on abstration - as any system in any RPG is, on some level. Only HPs are always to me VERY OLD concept that is rather impractical in game. But it's also one of fundaments of D&D, and I see it is "must be" in Next. So it's "necessary evil" and so it should be made as flawless as can be in this mechanics.
If you can't learn to abstract game mechanics, I don't think tabletop RPGs are the hobby for you.


Sir, don't run to far. Because you are now just trolling and looking for argue were it isn't need. Like I said, I always had a problem with HPs cause I started to run D&D as my first RPG, at age 12. Even then - I didn't have a problem with abstracting, only needing to abstract the hits. When nWoD came out, it's Health systm was totally natural one to me, even if it was based on abstration - as any system in any RPG is, on some level. Only HPs are always to me VERY OLD concept that is rather impractical in game. But it's also one of fundaments of D&D, and I see it is "must be" in Next. So it's "necessary evil" and so it should be made as flawless as can be in this mechanics.


Should probably explain that better. In every tabletop game, some level of abstraction is required. Some games are on the low end of the abstraction scale (requiring far less abstraction), such as wargames. Some are on the high end, such as the various rules-light systems such as World of Darkness. Roleplaying games in particular tend toward requiring more abstraction as the games that go into detail - such as RIFTS or Hero System - end up with massive tomes of hard to decode rules. Granted, they're very customizable and realistic, but they almost require a bachelors in mathematics to play the game. If you don't want to have to use a lot of abstraction in combat for your games, you should probably look toward wargaming rather than roleplaying.

The reason I state this so caustically is for two reasons. The first is because I posted this after half an hour on various forums trying to find a nice discussion of the Next rules and instead only coming across people misreading the rules then complaining about them, stating that some rule or system in place "sucks" with no further explanation as to why it sucks, or (the biggest offender) re-writing half the playtest rules then posting them as "house rules" even though they hadn't actually run a game yet because they felt they knew better than the designers without even attempting to playtest the game. My frustrations leaked into this post, but I've pretty much gotten it out of my system after a massive rant on Twitter.

The second (and more excusable) reason is that HP have been a part of D&D since the start. It, along with classes, levels, and AC are part of the core idea of what D&D is. It's never made any sense in terms of realism, but it's also never going away because for every person praising the more realistic system, there will be hundreds screaming at the top of their lungs how horrible it is now. Hell, I remember when 3rd Edition came out and everyone decried as sacrilege probably the simplest and most elegant change made to the system since Chainmail - ascending AC rather than descending AC.

Further, if you're going to complain about abstraction in a roleplaying game, it's not going to stop. Even if WotC came out with a perfectly realistic system for determining wounds, you would probably want something more realistic for combat. Then for movement. And mapping. And geological formations. And weather patterns. And explosions. And so on and so on. If you can't learn to abstract, you're never going to enjoy the game.

So I stand by my statement. Abstraction is required for any roleplaying game and HP are never going away. The best you could hope for really would be a Vitality Points/Wound Points system (like was used in the old Star Wars d20 game (pre-SAGA) and as optional rules in 2nd Edition, d20 Modern, and a few other places I can't remember) presented as an optional module. But that still requires a lot of abstraction when it comes to damage and it's not going to satisfy you if you require realism in combat.
I proposed 1/3 of HD in HP for long rest



When you impose longer rests, do you then find a need to allow your stories to lapse?  My group RPs out their downtime, and it can strech across multiple play-sessions.  Notably often they'll then say something like "Well, it's taken us several days to heal, so those captives have already been eaten.  What's over that next hill?"...and then the previous plot-line's never heard from again.

That's not a problem for our group--we just move to a different story--but we're atypical.  Many groups would find very-long rests a stumbling-block, so what suggestions do you have for carrying the story past a long break in the adventuring?

I'd have to start all the way back at adventure-design, to make sure there're no time-specific limitations, such as hostages, a raging forest fire, or possibly even an orc invasion.  Players are often unwilling to risk dying, and they may be willing to abandon goals in support of their own lives, especially if they've chosen their alignments appropriately to that mind-set.

Even there – I can envision how sword can take some fatuge on victim, as she dodge. But how can arrow or Magic Missle? They just hit you and doesn’t care if you are on “first 50% HP or second”. How can somehow describe it to me in any believable way?


 



The way I do it, and there are certainly other ways, is to suggest that the arrow was deflected by the armor, though a miss means you missed the mark entirely.  Same with magic missle, it blasted them, but didn't break the skin.

I think part of the difficulty is that you are aiming against "armor class", which means if you miss, it's cause the armor made you miss the target.  But really, if you miss, it just means that your attack was innefective in reducing the target's stamina/fatigue etc.  I can get hit with an arrow in my cloak, and if I'm lucky, it misses my body and just causes me fatigue as it flaps around in my cloak and makes it harder for me to move.

I'm Game Master with about 12 year of expiriance and many RPGs and sessions run -

.....
Also I'm playtesting the game as written




This must be my problem ... I've been playing ... since D&D was out (you know white box then red) so let's let it at "way over 12 years" and I won't feel THAT old

Bad habits of mine ;) Now you are right in saying we are here to test the rules I agreee absolutely.


 but newbie DMs don't know it. Even I would be pleased if some advice would be, because of metagaming aproche of D&D as whole system.



Keep in mind for your other remarks that this is a game KIT not a full game.
So of course some of the points you make are right ... but because a lot is yet missing
I have no doubt there is a LOT more in the rules.

As for the characters with no alignement ?
I think it' a choice to let the players decide and make these characters more their own.

This is a playtest posted for D&D players 
I'm pretty sure that the authors had in mind the fact that in order to playtest you needed to come to this website, have knowledge and love of the system and you thus knew some of the basic mechanics (alignment and such)
Of course it will be mentioned in the full book, and of course they will rightfully pre supose we have basic knowledge of the game mechanics ... because we do

You misread how cleric spells work in DDN.



Both the Wizard Character Sheet and the Cleric Character Sheets have an entry entitled Spell Preperation.

Both The Cleric Character Sheets and the Wizard Character Sheet (under Casting a Spell) clearly state that you may cast one of your Prepared Spells.

This means that spells must be prepared after a long rest and not cast 'on the fly.' 



No, again, you misread the section about spell preparation casting that are on the clerics' and wizard's character sheets. Read both the cleric and the wizard sheets carefully and you'll notice that they do NOT same thing. 

Just to be clear about the difference, wizards can prepare multiple copies of the same spell when they prepare spells for the day, but they lose their prepared spells from their mind when they cast the spell ("After you cast the spell it vanishes from your mind and you can not cast that prepared spell until after you next prepare spells.") .

By contrast Clerics do NOT lose the prepared spell, they only spend a spell slot but they can cast that same prepared spell again as often as they like provided they have spell slots to do so. Thus the cleric only needs to prepare one copy of each spell they potentially might want to cast that day and can then cast those spells in any order or combination they want, spending spell slots each time they cast a spell. In other words Clerics cast spells like 3e Sorcerers.


Again, please read the language on the wizard and cleric character sheets carefully on how they prepare and cast spells. They are not identical; wizards lose their spells when they cast them (ie cast like 3e wizards) while clerics do not lose their spells when they cast them (ie cast like 3e sorcerers).


The way I do it, and there are certainly other ways, is to suggest that the arrow was deflected by the armor, though a miss means you missed the mark entirely.  Same with magic missle, it blasted them, but didn't break the skin.



But how this is fatigue? But I see this as “at or above half of maximum hit points, you show no signs of injury”.




I think part of the difficulty is that you are aiming against "armor class", which means if you miss, it's cause the armor made you miss the target.  But really, if you miss, it just means that your attack was innefective in reducing the target's stamina/fatigue etc.  I can get hit with an arrow in my cloak, and if I'm lucky, it misses my body and just causes me fatigue as it flaps around in my cloak and makes it harder for me to move.



I have a very hard try to envision this, especially with cloak. Some video example of combat? For Savage Worlds best work “Princess Bride “…


[video=1499029]


Keep in mind for your other remarks that this is a game KIT not a full game. 
So of course some of the points you make are right ... but because a lot is yet missing
I have no doubt there is a LOT more in the rules.

 

Well, yes, but I mark what is needed in next iteration of kit, what is NOW problem. Also nice be to have those roleplaying advices, because now I have a little problem on what scale assume them. In 3(.5) ed the “quest XP” was added as you would win the encounter with quest giver – like 1st level trader, or 5th level aristocrat. Now we are blind in dark forest. Generating random number is always the way but some idea would be great. You run the game across all editions – what would you advice yourself?



As for the characters with no alignement ?
I think it' a choice to let the players decide and make these characters more their own.

 

I only had problem with alignments never mentioned in “Players Doc”. When reading Bestiary I got “surprise, we are back”. As I said- two paragraphs on conflict of Law-Chaos and Good-Evil would be enough.



This is a playtest posted for D&D players 
I'm pretty sure that the authors had in mind the fact that in order to playtest you needed to come to this website, have knowledge and love of the system and you thus knew some of the basic mechanics (alignment and such)


My “noD&D” player only counter that. Of course the DM must have experience with D&D, but rest of players no so much – playtests with kids only support that. But kits rules should be clear even for them. Or at least they parents. 


Again, please read the language on the wizard and cleric character sheets carefully on how they prepare and cast spells. They are not identical; wizards lose their spells when they cast them (ie cast like 3e wizards) while clerics do not lose their spells when they cast them (ie cast like 3e sorcerers).


This is enough for me. Cleric in DDN works like 3e sorcerer. Cool

That's not a problem for our group--we just move to a different story--but we're atypical.  Many groups would find very-long rests a stumbling-block, so what suggestions do you have for carrying the story past a long break in the adventuring?



I don't think 3-5 days a break as "long break" in adventuring. If I remember correctly, characters in AD&D needed to rest a WEAK to come back to normal health at first levels. Later, they used clerics magic to speed process. And that's exaclty what I look for - "mere mortals" needs couple a days to return to adenturning ( 3-5 are optimal in mine sense ). If they have higher levels, they alwyas can use magic. And in almost any settlement of game world there is at least one cleric of good or neutral deity that will heal you for little payment. Giving full HP for charaters just for free is cheapening a game world expirience in my sense.

I'd have to start all the way back at adventure-design, to make sure there're no time-specific limitations, such as hostages, a raging forest fire, or possibly even an orc invasion.  Players are often unwilling to risk dying, and they may be willing to abandon goals in support of their own lives, especially if they've chosen their alignments appropriately to that mind-set.



It's not something should be made just by "give them all HPs to don't stop the dungeon crawl". It's, as you say, adentures design thing t made fast pace game.

Hit points have, for a long time, been a measure of multiple factors. The following is from the AD&D 1st edition Dungeon Master's Guide.

HIT POINTS

It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).

... Beyond the basic physical damage sustained, hits scored upon a character do not actually do such an amount of physical damage.


Recovery of Hit Points:
When a character loses hit points in combat or to some other attack form (other than being drained of life energy levels), there are a number of different means by which such points can be restored. Clerics and paladins are able to restore such losses by means of spells or innate abilities. Magical devices such as potions operate much the same way, and a ring of regeneration will cause automatic healing and revitalization in general of its wearer. Commonly it is necessary to resort to the passage of time, however, to restore many characters to full hit point strength.



So you can see, the idea of hit points being not directly tied to physical injury is a long standing convention.
Granted, healing times were much, much longer in AD&D 1st edition but the core concept is the same.

Cheers,
stouty 
6. Monsters are too weak / PCs are to strong - I understand that Goblins or even Hobgoblins hsould go wth one attack of 1stlevel charcters. But when 5 PCs on 1st level kill Ogre without any serious wound, I think it's problem...



+1
This is enough for me. Cleric in DDN works like 3e sorcerer. 

More like the 3e Spirit Shaman, I think.  Prep spells at the beginning of the day from a list of all your class spells, then spontaneously cast from that list during the day.

However, the playtest clerics act like the sorcerer, since their prepared spells are fixed.

"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book  
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.

I believe the discussion of HP recovery from resting is important.  My first thought was FULL what ware you thinking?  If you were taken to negative but healed to a couple of HP nd your max is say 80.  Would a critical injury recover overnight to normal?  No I still don't believe it does but I am willing to put that aside for one reason.  I don't want to have players every few encounters think they can simply take a long rest.  Yes there is a restriction as to how often but I rather require fewer long rests just to "heal up" but still would prefer not to go to full.  I am trying to work out an option that would reduce from full a bit using the character attributes but have not thought of a good one that scales well, so far the best I have come up with is MAX - CHR LVL - CON MOD.  The idea of the CON mod being it is part of MAX hitpoints and while yes higher con means less healing its because your max is also higher for each level having a slight drop is not a huge difference over increasing levels.  Will have to see how it works versus another option.

The issue is when you only have a small amount to be healed.  Maybe this restriction is only in place for a long rest because you would not want to add complexity such as IF your over 50% hp, etc..  
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate. "Abandon all hope ye who enter here." A child of 5 could understand this, someone bring me a child of 5.
I am trying to work out an option that would reduce from full a bit using the character attributes but have not thought of a good one that scales well, so far the best I have come up with is MAX - CHR LVL - CON MOD.  The idea of the CON mod being it is part of MAX hitpoints and while yes higher con means less healing its because your max is also higher for each level having a slight drop is not a huge difference over increasing levels.  Will have to see how it works versus another option. 



In topic, there was mentioned idea of rolling your all HD for each long rest - statisticly, you get to need at least 2 then. Also mine 1/3 or other poster 1/4 of all. Of them, I would more appreciate rolling HD - it's fun ( you roll many dices Wink ), makes self healing unpredictable ( so it want be "We must return to village, we will be full heal" ) and makes healing magic big advantage, so even if players can heal themselves, they will look for cleric in settlement to patch them quicker. On the other hand, rolling means that most of time, after 3 days rest they are maxed out and can jst return to dungounes. Remember also that if group takes a "healing break", they go also to resuppley their PCs, order arrows, bolts, or even get one more equipment before returning to proper adventure -so even then they will want at least two days break, to full they shopping list. Sealed

.
SO even if I try to run playtests as written, I will try the rule with "long rests heals roll of all HDs HP of character" and see how this goes. Full heal is too much, and even designers of DDN are writting they will make something with that. I will give them just what can goes with that.
Oh I agree it would at least be more fun to roll and it would seem to fit more from a mechanical view I am just not sure how much from full I would prefer and I don't want to get to the point where in one session someone rolls all 1's and it becomes nasty and needs heals sooner again and I would hate to add more complications such as you get at least half or your modifier etc.  I just know I have been through sprawling dungeons or locations that to leave in even a week is not likely based on the story, sure everyone camps in a safe room but I just have not yet decide personally where that point of realism of healing versus healing becoming a bigger part of the game and taking away from the story meet.
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate. "Abandon all hope ye who enter here." A child of 5 could understand this, someone bring me a child of 5.
Oh I agree it would at least be more fun to roll and it would seem to fit more from a mechanical view I am just not sure how much from full I would prefer and I don't want to get to the point where in one session someone rolls all 1's and it becomes nasty and needs heals sooner again and I would hate to add more complications such as you get at least half or your modifier etc.  



Maybe adding CON mod te each result? They you are sure only total weaking that weren't investing any points in his own stamina would get  real 1's. Also, there are clerics in game world...
there are clerics in game world...



While that's true, don't forget adventuring in the Underdark, Feywild, other Planes, and on, and on.  There are many places where, usually resulting from a deliberate choice on the part of the DM, the party will have no access to resources other than their own.
While that's true, don't forget adventuring in the Underdark, Feywild, other Planes, and on, and on.  There are many places where, usually resulting from a deliberate choice on the part of the DM, the party will have no access to resources other than their own.



If was it choice by DM, it was planned. It meant to be harder for them. No sane DM will throw 1st level charater on Planes, only if they all agree on that. Even then, characters are still having free of magic healing on just long rest! You take long sleep, and you are full of life! It's more that any character had in 2ed Planescape, and somehow people were still playing on Planes from first level.

I said I don't want to cut this mechanics, only it need more balance. I like an idea, only math is too... casual. Wink
I got next problem...


1. NO XP RULES MENTIONED! - on last night game we didn't know is XP for enocunters is to get to every PC, or splited between them. BIG problem.



This problem expanded. My player point out I should be giving roleplay awards and sidequest ( they freed two hobgoblins prisoners ), but now I don't have any clue how much to give PCs XP for that. 



I finally solve that, at least for time. In 3.5ed there is advice as giving max 50 XP per level of charcter per session for good roleplaying. And for quest awards, there is tabel from 4ed, to read more here.

And so, we have something from 4 ed in Next - shorts rest and whole XP rules. Cool


We had a problem with Turn Undead rules. As the monsters provided in the module hasn't stats, we didn't know the Wisdom value for the Saving Throw (in fact, we didn't know the ability value for any check or contest). Also, clerics in the new rules seems to just turn ALL undead in their area, regardless the undead type or number or hp or level. So two level 1 clerics just turned docens of undead like it was nothing. This has no sense.




Check the bestiary.
'That's just, like, your opinion, man.'

We had a problem with Turn Undead rules. As the monsters provided in the module hasn't stats, we didn't know the Wisdom value for the Saving Throw (in fact, we didn't know the ability value for any check or contest). Also, clerics in the new rules seems to just turn ALL undead in their area, regardless the undead type or number or hp or level. So two level 1 clerics just turned docens of undead like it was nothing. This has no sense.




Check the bestiary.



 What do you mean? I now don't have this problem, but looks it can show soon in my game...

 What do you mean? I now don't have this problem, but looks it can show soon in my game...



The Bestiary has the stats (including Wisdom) for all the monsters.

Yesterday we were having second playtest session. This time party was weakened, because our fighter couldn't be on session. It also made me happy, as we could see how PCs works without dwarven badass. We started game as characters were escorting to Camiram village the marriage of traders from hobgoblins prison and heading to settlement for long rest. Inside village walls they got their 25 gp per head of reward, made some roleplaying with NPCs, got healing in temple of Pelor and give the news to the halfiling Mayor ( or rather it should be Sculteus as tittle for this office ) that was concerned about future of village, especially as monster tribes raids should be started again in only three days! Hearing this, PCs gone back to Caves of Chaos on next day and at noon they returned to explored by them sections ( mostly goblins lair ) by the cave of now dead ogre. Heading west, they started the simple alarm goblins made, and come to the barricade that greenskins built to protect their main sleeping quarter. When characters made just on the barricade, they made surprise attack on them by their little shortbows from tiny holes in barricade. Cleric of Pelor almost died, being revived by his companion. Then elf wizard set the barricade on fire with Burning Hands, PCs moved away, go out of ravine on nearest rocks for short rest and sneaked back to ogre cave. They sent halfling on scouts to see what's going inside goblins lair. Rogue seen conversation in Goblin Language between hobgoblins and goblins about capturing " the dangerous people" (i.e. PCs )  by using hobgoblins on east and goblins on west and giving them to "Evil Force". PCs made ambush on monsters, using the halfling as bait and leading to the once ogre lair for the sure death. Then heroes moved to now burned barricade and sent halfiing once more. As he was almost blind in darkness, he only saw bearly glowing campfire, with some shapes around him and provisional beds with some humanoids. When he wanted to slit a throat of one of creatures, that suddenly attacked him, with all other nine in room. Ten goblins ambushed rogue and nearly killed him. Thanks he's companion saved him. Waning to make short rest in caves, PCs were attacked by forces of Goblin Chieftain, and by using his Cunning Tactics almost killed both clerics and rogue. Remaining wizard put a death blow on Chieftain, but must to run to save his life. Fate of others is unknown...

And now to next problems of Next. 

1.    15 Minutes Work Day – it’s better than 2nd and 3rd edition „we use all our spells in one combat and go to sleep”, because of short rests. But still – after 15 minutes of action, character were so tired, that couldn’t press more inside the complex. Beside long rests giving to much HP back, we should have mechanics that will regenerates some powers of characters between long rests. Maybe giving PCs Action Points that can be be made in to recasting one spell or using extra action?

2.    No life without tank – fighter made previous session almost casual, this one was rather tougher on players. This is bad as PCs should be able to work fine without living sack of HP and big damage. Maybe Action Points thing should solve the case.

3.    Spellcasting unclaryfied- when do you actualy roll on it, when it just succed? Do you roll on healing spells or just assume they work fine when cast? What can be done with rituals? Are clerics blessings ( not spells, but ather narration ) having any mechanical bonuses? 

4.    Rogue is totally blind in darkness– Night Vision should be on 1st level, Skill Mastery on 2nd – now rogue is just blind as mole if he isn’t from darkvision race.    


What I liked:



  1. Combat speed – it seemed very “Savage Worlds-fast” giving much kick in adrenaline, even without PCs fancy special moves.

  2. Dying rules – there were many “near death” situation in our session, but only on last fight with Goblin Chieftain I needed to cheat a bit to save one PC. Characters are feeling as gone to dying state rather easy, but not going to die the same.


House rules tried:



  1. Surprise as Advantage and free attack – works beautifully, especially with goblins Dirty Tricks. Now trying to makes ambushes really helps and is felt as “surprised”.

  2. Rolled HD healed HP on long rest – only one long rest made, and only elf wizard needed to roll. He rolled max, so not knowing what with that to do.


If got any more compared to first session, will write it here. Our wizard is now 2nd level, so next session will be interesting to see how this goes. Players were more enthusiastic than on presious one, mostly because goblins used ambushes, all got some roleplaying before and get to know strengths of the PC. Cool

No one interested in my playtests now? Frown I was feeling some good things come up on this sesion...
It's the weekend. Be more patient for the feedback from you feedback. Tongue Out
That said, I think you're doing a good job of identifying what you like and where you're having problems, and why. What else can I say?