I wish all the spells were at-will

If all the spells were at-will, then the game would be very easy to balance.

Say at 1st level you get to choose one 1st level spell that you can choose at-will and no other spells. The spells aren't so overpowered that you would be unbalancing things, and even if they are, they could be toned down.

At second level you would get to pick another 1st level spell at-will. At third you get to pick either a first or second at-will, and on and on.

They would have to fold the minor spells back into 1st level, but that's not hard.

Once they did this I think that the issues would go away, but it's not the 'traditional' way so they probably won't even consider it.

For burning hands the damage is 2d4+3(ability mod) which at best under optimal conditions you can catch 6 enemies in the area. So the average damage per enemy would be 5.5 so six enemies would be 33 damage.

However you will almost never hit 6 enemies with that spell, so if we use a diminishing chance of lining enemies up say:
1 enemy 100% (as you won't use the spell unless you have at least 1 target)
2 enemies 50%
3 enemies 25%
4 enemies 12.5%
5 enemies 6.25%
6 enemies 3.125%

Adding together all of the chances you'd get 10.82 damage per round. Not super awesome, but it wouldn't hurt to drop it down to 1d4 + 3(mod) or 1d6 +3(mod).

Sleep is fine as is. causes half move until hit (pretty weak in my opinion). Save or Die (sorta) on 10 hp or less, with the opportunity to get woken up by allies. If they wanted to make it less powerful they could mess with the numbers. Maybe just lower move speed by 10' per round and make the hit point requirement at 8 instead of 10.

Spells like alarm that are utility could be used as rituals as there is almost never going to be a combat application for that kind of spell.

Light could be used to blind an enemy for a round (cast it on their eyes) with a save or attack roll to mitigate.

Mage hand could be used to trip, deal 1d6+3 damage on a hit, or anything else.

Charm person could drop the hit point requirement and allow a save each round until they succeed or the hour is up. Since they are not a slave, the only mechanical effect would be to get info or to avoid them attacking you (they would still attack your allies though).

Command is fine, maybe make it usable on the same creature once only.

Crusaders strike would be fine too as it pretty much lasts an hour and only add's 1d6 damage. Maybe drop it to 1d4 damage, or just Wis mod damage.

Cure light wounds could be limited to the same character can't be targeted more than once per day or once per hour or once per 10 minutes or something.

Healing word could be dropped to wis mod instead of 1d6.

Detect magic should be a ritual.

Divine favor would work as is, maybe change the duration to 1 round or disallow casting on the same target twice in the same day.

Grease looks fine to me, but to limit it you could disallow casting on the same target more than once per day, I mean if that's the only spell you have at 1st level, then yeah take each round to cast it on a different enemy.

Hold person you just lower the hp threshold down to 20 and allow a save each round to overcome the effects.

Radiant lance is fine

Mirror Image is fine as long as you can't cast it on the same target (self) more than once per 10 minutes or something like that.

Most of these can be used in an at-will manner if you just lower the damage output and make it not usable on the same target more than once per day or more than once per 10 minutes or something like that.

In some cases I'd even be happy if they were just on all the time. You would get the spell and it would be permanent like the divine favor spell. Just have it grant +1 to attacks and saves. In exchange for the spell slot (as in you don't get to use one of your slots) you get a tiny advantage that doesn't scale.

What do you think?
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I would prefere a rework of the way 4th edition powers worked, on a more intuitive mechanic.

You have your Cantrips/Orisons, which are usuable freely. You don't need to do anything other than use them.

Your standard spells require a check to use, but don't require anything more than an action to cast.

Then there are encounter Spells, that you take an action to cast, and their effects last for an entire encounter. They take your whole action to cast, and you must make a check to cast them. You can also cast these spells out of combat as a ritual.

Your big effects, like Mage armor, last all day. They cannot be cast in combat, require 1 minute to cast, and do not require a check unless you use it multiple times, say to grant Elfsight to your entire party. Then it becomes a Ritual.

Activating your spells that require a check is a spellcasting check based on your casting modifier (INT, WIS, CHA, etc.). The DC for you to cast the spell is similar to the DC for someone to save against the spell; perhaps starting 2 points lower than the DC. Casting Defensively gives you Disadvantage for this check, unless you have a feat to offset this penalty. You could make spells that are meant to be used as touch/close spells give a small bonus to the roll to offset this, or they could ignore Disadvantage for defensive casting. Each time you try to cast the same spell in a day, the DC goes up by 1. These penalties go away completely after a long rest, and lessen by a small value, say 2-3, after a short rest.
They can go ahead and include something like that in core, but leave my Vancian alone. I would much rather have my spell slots than a 3.5 Warlock++ with some 4e rituals.

Although, making the spells encounter might be easier to balance than at will, if this were to exist side by side with Vancian. It would also feel a bit better than "you can't use it on the same target more than once per day." That's an odd thing on spells like grease. Why can't I grease up that goblin again? Logically, there isn't really a reason why conjuring some slippery liquid on a poor sap would fail the second time. The world reacting in a way for no other reason than balance kills immersion IMO. 
I prefer the mix presented in 5E.



I don't like 4E spellcasting. 
If all the spells were at-will, then the game would be very easy to balance.

Say at 1st level you get to choose one 1st level spell that you can choose at-will and no other spells. The spells aren't so overpowered that you would be unbalancing things, and even if they are, they could be toned down.

At second level you would get to pick another 1st level spell at-will. At third you get to pick either a first or second at-will, and on and on.

They would have to fold the minor spells back into 1st level, but that's not hard.

Once they did this I think that the issues would go away, but it's not the 'traditional' way so they probably won't even consider it.

For burning hands the damage is 2d4+3(ability mod) which at best under optimal conditions you can catch 6 enemies in the area. So the average damage per enemy would be 5.5 so six enemies would be 33 damage.

However you will almost never hit 6 enemies with that spell, so if we use a diminishing chance of lining enemies up say:
1 enemy 100% (as you won't use the spell unless you have at least 1 target)
2 enemies 50%
3 enemies 25%
4 enemies 12.5%
5 enemies 6.25%
6 enemies 3.125%

Adding together all of the chances you'd get 10.82 damage per round. Not super awesome, but it wouldn't hurt to drop it down to 1d4 + 3(mod) or 1d6 +3(mod).

Sleep is fine as is. causes half move until hit (pretty weak in my opinion). Save or Die (sorta) on 10 hp or less, with the opportunity to get woken up by allies. If they wanted to make it less powerful they could mess with the numbers. Maybe just lower move speed by 10' per round and make the hit point requirement at 8 instead of 10.

Spells like alarm that are utility could be used as rituals as there is almost never going to be a combat application for that kind of spell.

Light could be used to blind an enemy for a round (cast it on their eyes) with a save or attack roll to mitigate.

Mage hand could be used to trip, deal 1d6+3 damage on a hit, or anything else.

Charm person could drop the hit point requirement and allow a save each round until they succeed or the hour is up. Since they are not a slave, the only mechanical effect would be to get info or to avoid them attacking you (they would still attack your allies though).

Command is fine, maybe make it usable on the same creature once only.

Crusaders strike would be fine too as it pretty much lasts an hour and only add's 1d6 damage. Maybe drop it to 1d4 damage, or just Wis mod damage.

Cure light wounds could be limited to the same character can't be targeted more than once per day or once per hour or once per 10 minutes or something.

Healing word could be dropped to wis mod instead of 1d6.

Detect magic should be a ritual.

Divine favor would work as is, maybe change the duration to 1 round or disallow casting on the same target twice in the same day.

Grease looks fine to me, but to limit it you could disallow casting on the same target more than once per day, I mean if that's the only spell you have at 1st level, then yeah take each round to cast it on a different enemy.

Hold person you just lower the hp threshold down to 20 and allow a save each round to overcome the effects.

Radiant lance is fine

Mirror Image is fine as long as you can't cast it on the same target (self) more than once per 10 minutes or something like that.

Most of these can be used in an at-will manner if you just lower the damage output and make it not usable on the same target more than once per day or more than once per 10 minutes or something like that.

In some cases I'd even be happy if they were just on all the time. You would get the spell and it would be permanent like the divine favor spell. Just have it grant +1 to attacks and saves. In exchange for the spell slot (as in you don't get to use one of your slots) you get a tiny advantage that doesn't scale.

What do you think?



The problems with this have 0 to do with tradition and everything to do with your preference being a warlock style caster with wizard style versatility.

This doesn't play with with others, and by others I mean any class at all.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

My wish is that all (or most) spells had 3 versions, an At Will, an Encounter and a Daily version. Then instead of Spells per day just have a certain number of Encounter and Daily uses.

So for example, Magic Missile would be 1d4+1 for the At Will version, and then maybe the Encounter version would let you do 2d4+2 or two 1d4+1 simultaneously, and the Daily would be 4d4+4 or 4x. Now that's just an example, but hopefully you get my drift. Just increase the potency exponentially for each upgrade. Make sure the At Will versions are fairly weak...which with the Advantage system many of them could just grant situational Advantage (again just off the top of my head here). I disliked Powers in general, but the idea of Encounter and Daily uses has merit IMO. And you wouldn't need to give all spells 3 versions. I don't think Read Magic would need to be used a Daily anytime. lol

If you did it this way you could get rid of all the annoyances of Vancian magic but still require the Long Rest type cycle to restore spells.
There's plenty of folks who love the vancian system.
There's plenty of folks who love warlocks
There's plenty of folks who love the vancian system, but wish they had MORE "not-really-unlimited-but-when-are-you-gonna-run-out" spells per day. They like Sorcerers. Or maybe they'd play warlocks but the sorcerer's just that much more powerful.

As long as we keep things balanced, things will be fine, and the game can offer multiple forms and styles to play with.

Wizards need very limited spellcasting per day. Powerful, but there must, this time, actually be a visible limit, not a theoretical "if we had twenty fights today, and somehow everyone survived them all, its only thanks to the wizard and cleric using all their spells per day, but they're actually finally out now. But we only have two or three fights per day in reality, so that will never happen".

For those more in the middle, I'd like to see the Sorcerer bridging the gap: Half the spells per day of the wizard, but no need to memorise them ahead of time, and a greater mastery of minor spells. This would have the 'improved' minor spells [like a slightly better weaponized magic missile as we've suggested in other threads], and also a "Greater minor spells" list that they slowly access, more powerful at-wills that keep the character higher up once he's out than a wizard in value and power, particularly in combat, but much less effective while the wizard still has spells.

Finally, you'd get the Warlock: Maybe ONE vancian of every level, but very solid all the time, with the best and brightest at-wills scaling and numbers.

While obviously needing tweaking, you'd basically have something like this:

If at a given level Wizard is 100% at full power 8 times a day, and 25% the rest of the time
Sorcerers are 100% 4 times a day, and 40% the rest of the time
Warlocks are 100% twice a day, and 55% the rest of the time

This only of course works if carefully balanced, but what doesn't? And, of course, is only even feasible if the wizard has a measurable, testable "no, if you're not careful he runs out early and it really IS that bad" level of resources. If it, just as in 3rd and onwards for d20 systems, is a simple non-issue, then we really do have to just assume that they're in fact at-will, and keep it to just one warlock-style class, balanced around its unlimited firepower.
Elegant, easy to play, easy to balance, clearly reflecting years of RPG development and good, solid design.

In other words, we won't see anything close with 5e. =P
Elegant, easy to play, easy to balance, clearly reflecting years of RPG development and good, solid design.

In other words, we won't see anything close with 5e. =P



Exactly...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
A man can always hope
There's plenty of folks who love the vancian system.
There's plenty of folks who love warlocks
There's plenty of folks who love the vancian system, but wish they had MORE "not-really-unlimited-but-when-are-you-gonna-run-out" spells per day. They like Sorcerers. Or maybe they'd play warlocks but the sorcerer's just that much more powerful.

As long as we keep things balanced, things will be fine, and the game can offer multiple forms and styles to play with.

Wizards need very limited spellcasting per day. Powerful, but there must, this time, actually be a visible limit, not a theoretical "if we had twenty fights today, and somehow everyone survived them all, its only thanks to the wizard and cleric using all their spells per day, but they're actually finally out now. But we only have two or three fights per day in reality, so that will never happen".

For those more in the middle, I'd like to see the Sorcerer bridging the gap: Half the spells per day of the wizard, but no need to memorise them ahead of time, and a greater mastery of minor spells. This would have the 'improved' minor spells [like a slightly better weaponized magic missile as we've suggested in other threads], and also a "Greater minor spells" list that they slowly access, more powerful at-wills that keep the character higher up once he's out than a wizard in value and power, particularly in combat, but much less effective while the wizard still has spells.

Finally, you'd get the Warlock: Maybe ONE vancian of every level, but very solid all the time, with the best and brightest at-wills scaling and numbers.

While obviously needing tweaking, you'd basically have something like this:

If at a given level Wizard is 100% at full power 8 times a day, and 25% the rest of the time
Sorcerers are 100% 4 times a day, and 40% the rest of the time
Warlocks are 100% twice a day, and 55% the rest of the time

This only of course works if carefully balanced, but what doesn't? And, of course, is only even feasible if the wizard has a measurable, testable "no, if you're not careful he runs out early and it really IS that bad" level of resources. If it, just as in 3rd and onwards for d20 systems, is a simple non-issue, then we really do have to just assume that they're in fact at-will, and keep it to just one warlock-style class, balanced around its unlimited firepower.


This is good for the numbers, I agree completely.

Now how would you do that concerning what spells are available to each, what if any at-wills?

Me personally, I see at wills being free detect magic for all using Arcane Lore check.

I see at will mage hand for all.

Wizard might get magic missle but with an attack instead of auto hit.  Leave all implications of using a weapon in place.  Let it scale.

Sorcerer allow the same but one additional attack based at will.

Warlock 3 at wills and an at will 1st level effect such as sleep but with a single target instead of an area with the effect only lasting 2rnds per level.

Nothing solid here just some brainstorming.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

The reason I want them all to be at-will is that it will be easier to balance them out with other classes. If you have a wizard with 4 weak at-will powers (1st level) its way easier to give the fighter 4 types of bonuses. You could give them:



  • +2-4 to hit prone opponents from ranged (or just give them advantage).

  • Grant the ability to take strength off of to-hit and put it on damage.

  • Grant the ability to take strength off of damage and put it on to-hit.

  • Make checks to improvise in combat have an automatic roll of 10 if the dice is lower.


It would be easy to balance. If we go the vancian route the wizard will have 36 spells they can cast by the time they hit level 20 (that's if 20 is the max and like they said in the articles they cap the number of spells per level at 4), how do you balance a fighter against that? if an average number of encounters is 4 then that's 9 spells per encounter. What does the figher have to show? maybe 1 extra action per encounter? a couple points extra damage on a miss from reaper? that's not much. The only way to balance it would be to make the fighter way too complex even for 4E fighter fans. 36 powers they can use per day? That's crazy and leaves those that like the simple fighter in the dust. Even if it were just 36 static modifiers that would be bad. Can you imagine trying to read through 36 modifiers to see which ones apply in a given situation?

Basically I'm looking for a way we can avoid backtracking to the imbalance of the casters vs. the melee classes in previous editions...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Elegant, easy to play, easy to balance, clearly reflecting years of RPG development and good, solid design.

In other words, we won't see anything close with 5e. =P



Exactly...





You better stick to 4E then   

Okay, Ideas for the At-Wills

Minors are as we see them.

Patterns are more powerful At-Wills. They scale no faster, but have the function and value of something similar to the 2e psionic sciences. In other words, rather than a very specific, set effect, your small handful of Patterns have a bit more general purpose use to them. They're a little more powerful to begin with, but will never be more than about half the power of an equivalent full character's highest spells

- A powerful clay ball hits a bit less hard than a wizard's "pebble to boulders", but leaves behind a little mound that'll slowly evaporate over an hour. Good for pitcher's mounds, walling up a window, or perhaps making a slope the party can climb up those smaller cliffs.

- An electrical effect you can scale down from its 'ball lightning' form to a more concentrated arc or lethal grasp, or can hold back with very low intensity in case some golem needs powering for an hour.

- Stronger telekinesis that can float that chest around or form a small forcewall.

- Plenty of ideas better than what I can come up with.

Wizards only have access to the minors.

Sorcerers get half to two-thirds of the spell level progression of wizards [probably 2/3 of the early stuff, perhaps not even a single spell of the highest level wiz can have]. But, they get a handful of Patterns.

Warlocks have perhaps a single spell per level in vancian form, same progression but in less numbers than a sorcerer but have, of course, more Patterns available.
Elegant, easy to play, easy to balance, clearly reflecting years of RPG development and good, solid design.

In other words, we won't see anything close with 5e. =P



Exactly...





You better stick to 4E then   




Wow, I have never seen a more helpful post on the internets... thanks. I'm going to go back to 4E and not give WotC any more of my money...Yell
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Too much at wills mean too much thinking over what to use in your turn and no preparation and power management beforehand. It will fail right from the start.

I don't like at wills, they lead the wizard spam them once the important spells are used. I would like to see wizards start with memorizing 4 minor spells at 1st level and these spells should be  "remembered" once the wizard takes a 1 hour rest. Daily spells should be the ones that are granted by level progression. Maybe at every 3rd level wizards can choose another minor spell and such...
The key to having any ability you can use whenever you wish whether its the improvisation or a well defined repertoire ability is to make sure they are situationally distinct - hence heading off spam. You have made decisions significant... you can make them easier with explicit conditions under which a particular power is an obvious best

The further you head off spam the more you get the potential decision paralysis. Limited "valuable" resources do not solve this, in fact they end up being "saved" to the point of frustration .. which is just another form of decision paralysis. That sense of value induces it.

You cant really prevent decision paralysis especially once somebody realises how truely open ended the game we are playing at its core is. You can pretend for their sake there are a limited set of buttons and make them pick from those... ooh look AD*D as pac-man, you arent doing D&D justice.
 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Oh and at-will magic that can be used in flexible improvisational fashions , perhaps with built in price of power elements that could be awesome.
 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I think the best approach is to offer a variety of spell casting mechanics. So for instance have the wizard use the current DDN wizard spell slot system (similar to 3e with at-wills), have a warlock who uses more of a 4e power type system of at-wills, encounters and dailies, have a sorcerer who casts spells like the DDN cleric (similar to 3e sorcerers) and have an arcane class or psionic, etc, that uses something like spell points.

By having multiple casting mechanics available within the same broad archtype of classes you increase the chance that a given player will find a class that uses a casting style they enjoy playing. 
I think the best approach is to offer a variety of spell casting mechanics. So for instance have the wizard use the current DDN wizard spell slot system (similar to 3e with at-wills), have a warlock who uses more of a 4e power type system of at-wills, encounters and dailies, have a sorcerer who casts spells like the DDN cleric (similar to 3e sorcerers) and have an arcane class or psionic, etc, that uses something like spell points.

By having multiple casting mechanics available within the same broad archtype of classes you increase the chance that a given player will find a class that uses a casting style they enjoy playing. 



I would go with this.

I personally hate the idea of the fully at-will Wizard; after thirty years of playing Vancian it just doesn't feel like either a Wizard or D&D to me.  However, I know there are other people who do prefer that kind of an approach, and they should have options as well.

A mix is great, just so long as I can have Vancian as one of the options. 
Jack Vance deserves your respect, it's Vancian, not "vancian." The goal for Next is to be inclusive; you can't include by exclusion.
The idea of having different casting classes is to have Different casting classes.  What you are proposing are different flavors of the same casting class.  Yes, easy to balance, and if you are DM-ing and want this, feel free to restrict your players (and then listen to them hate you.)  Wizards need to be different from Sorcerors, Warlocks, etc. to give players a choice in how they want to play their character.  Yes, makes it harder to balance, but leave that up to the game designers to worry about.  A lack of diversity will just make me less likely to spend money on this new system as it did with the prior iteration.  I do think the At-Will minor spells is a nice idea, but beyond that if you want all At-Will spells play a class that has all At-Will spells and let those of us who want a Wizard-type caster (access to lots of spells, but must choose each day what spells to have at the ready) available that option.
Elegant, easy to play, easy to balance, clearly reflecting years of RPG development and good, solid design.

In other words, we won't see anything close with 5e. =P



Exactly...





You better stick to 4E then   




Wow, I have never seen a more helpful post on the internets... thanks. I'm going to go back to 4E and not give WotC any more of my money...Yell




Is " In other words, we won't see anything close with 5e. =P" a helpful post in your mind? because to me it seems whiney and petty and you agreed with it. 

Casting the same spells over and over is super boring for most wizard players. We need MORE spells not less, to shake things up
Instead, since one would end up using the same spell because that's what's appropriate, perhaps 'spell tricks' and 'spell skills', which you can apply to the at-wills.

Wizards are already about having a good variety of powerful vancian spells. They can get most of their variety from there, and would get the rest from having a handful of tricks or skills they can apply to their minors.

A sorcerer or warlock would havea  greater variety of at-wills that they can do tricks with, but less of the really big guns.

Examples of tricks might be:

-Reaction: After casting your magic missile or ray of frost, you may choose to keep it and specify a trigger. The minor spell will remain readied for two additional rounds before expiring. Using the Reaction spell trick expends your reaction for the turn where it is used, regardless of when it actually fires before expiring.

-Diffusion: You may cause your single-target spell to deal minimum damage in a five-foot splash instead of its usual damage.


The big question would be how to obtain these. One trick per feat makes for a trap, but all of them for a feat could be too much. Would that we had a proficiency system to get one or two instead?
I think the best approach is to offer a variety of spell casting mechanics. So for instance have the wizard use the current DDN wizard spell slot system (similar to 3e with at-wills), have a warlock who uses more of a 4e power type system of at-wills, encounters and dailies, have a sorcerer who casts spells like the DDN cleric (similar to 3e sorcerers) and have an arcane class or psionic, etc, that uses something like spell points.

By having multiple casting mechanics available within the same broad archtype of classes you increase the chance that a given player will find a class that uses a casting style they enjoy playing. 



That was what I was thinking as well. It would breath a sense of uniqueness into each class, and allow players to discover what style of caster best suites their tastes. The idea is extendable to the divine and martial character classes as well.
I don't see it being much of a problem having somebody either choose "at wills" and then watering them right down for their potency. While on the other hand if somebody wants to play more strict vancian-style, let them have more potent spells for having the "risks" involved with 1) limited access casting repetoire based on what you memorized 2) not having a fluid list of spells that can just be used as the need arises 3) having to actually pay attention to the story to "pro-actively" plan out your spells memorized.
I don't care for replenishing powers per combat, i don't care for the sense that i can only have 1 particular "daily" as opposed to me memorizing 3 of the same spell if i want to. I don't care for spell points as (to me anyway) this makes for a weaker player (in regards to understanding how to plan out spells-for-the-day). 
  I don't mind the vancian style magic one bit.....its what i learned on and what i am used to....i don't mind playing really weak mages when they first start out (i don't mind the really high mortality rate for wizards).....i don't mind not having a spell to cast when i run out for the day. Let me choose how creative and versitile i want to be when the need arises).
If people want those "spell-points" or "powers" or tons of "at-wills" i'm all for it, but if somebody wants to take on the true vancian...ramp them up please.
I don't see it being much of a problem having somebody either choose "at wills" and then watering them right down for their potency. While on the other hand if somebody wants to play more strict vancian-style, let them have more potent spells for having the "risks" involved with 1) limited access casting repetoire based on what you memorized 2) not having a fluid list of spells that can just be used as the need arises 3) having to actually pay attention to the story to "pro-actively" plan out your spells memorized.
I don't care for replenishing powers per combat, i don't care for the sense that i can only have 1 particular "daily" as opposed to me memorizing 3 of the same spell if i want to. I don't care for spell points as (to me anyway) this makes for a weaker player (in regards to understanding how to plan out spells-for-the-day). 
  I don't mind the vancian style magic one bit.....its what i learned on and what i am used to....i don't mind playing really weak mages when they first start out (i don't mind the really high mortality rate for wizards).....i don't mind not having a spell to cast when i run out for the day. Let me choose how creative and versitile i want to be when the need arises).
If people want those "spell-points" or "powers" or tons of "at-wills" i'm all for it, but if somebody wants to take on the true vancian...ramp them up please.



Here here!!

Leave my wizards alone.  I like the fact that if a party does it's duty and protects that wizard early on he then grows into the role of protecting the party.

It's actually lots of fun when you give it a chance.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Oh and at-will magic that can be used in flexible improvisational fashions , perhaps with built in price of power elements that could be awesome.
 


Ammo for wizards, I've actually been proposing this on another thread.

It only makes sense that if you are going to be firing off magic missle every round that there should be some sort of associated cost.  After all an archer has to buy and track his arrows so why shouldn't you.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Casting the same spells over and over is super boring for most wizard players. We need MORE spells not less, to shake things up



I'm loving this, because the Wizard has the best and greatest amount of things to do in 5e.
Oh and at-will magic that can be used in flexible improvisational fashions , perhaps with built in price of power elements that could be awesome.
 


Ammo for wizards, I've actually been proposing this on another thread.

It only makes sense that if you are going to be firing off magic missle every round that there should be some sort of associated cost.  After all an archer has to buy and track his arrows so why shouldn't you.



Sure though prices I was thinking of are more magical, I include things like, dipping in to the sand mans coffers may induce a wave of sleepiness in the caster not just his targets or casting this affects multiple targets but your channelling is painful take d4 damage or you are disadvantaged next round.... that kind of price. 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Elegant, easy to play, easy to balance, clearly reflecting years of RPG development and good, solid design.

In other words, we won't see anything close with 5e. =P



Exactly...





You better stick to 4E then   




Wow, I have never seen a more helpful post on the internets... thanks. I'm going to go back to 4E and not give WotC any more of my money...Yell




Is " In other words, we won't see anything close with 5e. =P" a helpful post in your mind? because to me it seems whiney and petty and you agreed with it. 




Which smiley is the sarcasm smiley?
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I was thinking of just giving 2 spells per level at-will, with the possibility of swapping them out when you rest or level up.

Character         Spell Levels
Level     1st     2nd     3rd     4th     5th     6th     7th     8th     9th
1           1
2           2
3           2          1
4           2          2
5           2          2       1
6           2          2       2
7           2          2       2        1
8           2          2       2        2
9           2          2       2        2        1
10         2          2       2        2        2
11         2          2       2        2        2       1
12         2          2       2        2        2       2
13         2          2       2        2        2       2       1
14         2          2       2        2        2       2       2
15         2          2       2        2        2       2       2         1
16         2          2       2        2        2       2       2         2
17         2          2       2        2        2       2       2         2         1
18         2          2       2        2        2       2       2         2         2
19         2          2       2        2        2       2       2         2         2
20         2          2       2        2        2       2       2         2         2

Something like this, it would be way easier to balance the other classes against this because at the highest levels 18-20 there are only 18 total spells known, so other classes would only need about 18 powers, feats, bonuses etc... to match up. In a vancian system even with just 4 spell slots per level up to 9th, we are talking 36 spells, how do you balance against that?

"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I hated vancian casting I am less extreme about it now... It was both the flavor of it..amnesiacs really? and the implementation the character was either useless or over powered.

3e wizards hanging rituals premise isnt too terrible in flavor.

Though it doesnt really matter the edition vancian spell slots are extremely gamey concept (unrelated to fantasy fiction, legend or myth) especially the daily limitation on them, even if you try following Vances writing you should be able to rememorise as soon as the battle died down and you had a bit of quiet with your book.




 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Garthanos,

Backlash from overcasting? I could live with that.

Reminds me of Raistlin (s.p?)
Been a few years since I read those.

You might have to give them a bit more overall HP or at least a number of freebies.

How about casting a number equal to INT mod with each after that being a number of HP = to the number of times you overcast.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

I always liked the idea that you had to choose which spells to prepare but hated the description of why you could not cast more.

I preferred an explanation my first DM gave me. You spend those preparation hours Imbuing the necessary components with energy and carefully inscribing the necessary runes. He said "Wizards don't cast spells on the battle field, they just finish the casting there."

Not the traditional description but the image has stuck with me and made me love the DnD spell slot system. It made me feel that the intelligence of the wizard was knowing what energies to harness ahead of time.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Garthanos,

Backlash from overcasting? I could live with that.

Reminds me of Raistlin (s.p?)
Been a few years since I read those.

You might have to give them a bit more overall HP or at least a number of freebies.

How about casting a number equal to INT mod with each after that being a number of HP = to the number of times you overcast.

You spelled it correctly bro. Hail brave knight of W.T.F!
Garthanos, Backlash from overcasting? I could live with that. Reminds me of Raistlin (s.p?) Been a few years since I read those. You might have to give them a bit more overall HP or at least a number of freebies. How about casting a number equal to INT mod with each after that being a number of HP = to the number of times you overcast.



Yup.. basically. In legend and myth any and every aggressive use of magic came with a price in terms of backlash but benign magic doesnt necessarily. In christian terms it is "as you sew so shall ye wreap" and in wiccan phrase book its called the "thricefold returns", And yes the arbitrarily low hit points would be on the chopping block.  

The price you spoke of with components is called "sacrefice" where you give up something ahead of time. 

Sacrefice, Repercussion and Extended effort. The latter is where you get rituals or multiround casting times (I think two round casting could be fun... similar to how the playtest rogue was often stealthing one round to get a boosted attack next round... now apply that to a mage).
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Thank you Brave Knight of WTF!!

Garthanos,

I remember multi round casting. Good times. Would be interesting to work that all back in.

How about keep the the spell slots as is.

Implement HP cost for at wills after INT mod uses.

Casting a spell that is not prepared costs HP say 1d4 per level of spell and takes 1 additional round per spell level to cast -INT mod minimum 1

Up the wizard hit die to match the rogue.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Thank you Brave Knight of WTF!! Garthanos, I remember multi round casting. Good times. Would be interesting to work that all back in. How about keep the the spell slots as is. Implement HP cost for at wills after INT mod uses. Casting a spell that is not prepared costs HP say 1d4 per level of spell and takes 1 additional round per spell level to cast -INT mod minimum 1 Up the wizard hit die to match the rogue.


Assuming rogues are allocated hit point appropriate for the style of there abilities something like that is what I could go with. The specific details I am not sure about but I kind of like the idea of case by case this is the ritual form of the spell this is the at-will form I have seen Gazra? propose.  
 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I have not seen Gazra.

I am liking the option and I do like allowing some decidedly non combat wizardry without this casting cost. I.e. read magic, Mage hand.

Will get more into this discussion tonight. Today is play testing day for my group.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

Sign In to post comments