My fixes for 5th edition from almost 30 years of D&D player/GM and professional game tester

This is a LONG post, but it will be worth the read.


First, let me say I have been playing DnD for almost 30 years. My first experience with D&D was when they weren’t even book they where 5 x 8 pamphlets. I have played every edition and enjoyed them all some better than others. I am someone that didn’t like 4e as much. I think it did some things that were AWESOME! I love the abilities and making characters have unique powers, I didn’t like the over healing, and thought the tactical combat was too much of a focus, and skill challenges where a horrible decision. Home brew games were great, convention living games were horrible for the most part. I have also designed from the ground up 3 (none published table top games), and been a profession (paid for work several years ago) senior game tester for Lucas Arts.


So how do we make compromises and make the best of the best… well here are some of my ideas;


1) Hit Die (Hit Points)
I don’t like the current system at ALL. Rolling for hit points is SO CRITICAL, people get angry and then as a GM you let them re-roll anyway. SO having a mechanic like this broken imho. Also, has many others have stated the con modifier to the minimum really favors people rolling D4 or D6 over the fighter rolling d10.


So, here is the fix. Your Constitution modifier adds to the number of die you roll taking the highest roll (minimum of 1 die rolled). So my Wizard with a Constitution of 12 (+1) would roll 2d4 taking the highest roll. My Fighter with a 16 Constitution would roll 4d10 taking the highest one. I think this is a great compromise and makes Constitution more useful and players would feel better about the rolling and keep the same “spirit” of what you are trying to do.


2) Health and Healing: 
There needs to be a new system. I personally like Wounds and Vitality (you can still call them Hit points) Wounds equal your Constitution and heal either by magic (healing spells would need new math) or natural healing of 1 per day. Hit Points (Vitality) represent combat endurance and heal to full after a short rest.


Once you run out of Hit Points, you start taking Wound damage. This would increased survivability, maked Constitution a more valuable stat, and it's a pretty good compromise.


3) Critical Hits
I personally like max damage, because rolling 4 on a critical hit roll sucks! However, if you implement #1 Critical hits can still be max damage or an option rule would place a critical hit as normal damage directly to WOUNDS… OUCH!


My favorite option would be Max damage + weapon die roll (since we roll hit die and damage die at same time). It just depends on how deadly you want combat to be.


4) Spell casting. 
Well this is a tough one. I personally really like what they have done with the mix of at-wills and resource casting. I really think it’s hard to tell how it will really play out until we can test level 5 – 10. However, at 3rd level 4e you have at-wills, 2 encounter, 1 utility, & 1 daily: In 5e you have at-wills and 6 dailies, so you max in 5e is 3 encounters before you are empty and in 4E you would still have 2 encounter powers.


I’m really on the fence on this topic, BUT I would increase the casting to:
1st Level: 4
2nd level: 5
3rd Level: 5 and 3


5) Armor:
I don’t get the uproar over Heavy as much as some people. Most of my fighter/tank have never had more than 12 Dexterity so Plate Mail is always better than Medium armor. However, I think it is time the reworked the armor.. so here goes:


Armor & Shields
Light:  + Full Dexterity
Leather: AC 11
Studded Leather: AC 12
Chain Shirt: AC 13
Mithril Chain: AC 14


Medium + 1/2 Dexterity
Ringmail: AC 13
Scale: AC 14
Splint: AC 15
Dragon Scale: AC 16


Heavy + 0 Dexterity
Chainmail: AC 16
Banded: AC 17
Plate: AC 18
Adamantine: AC 19


Shields
Light: AC +1 (No penalty)
Heavy: AC +3 (Eliminates any Dexterity bonus to your AC)


6) Dexterity the Super stat
Ok, so this is RADICAL! We have always done it this way needs to change on this topic. So, here goes. Remove damage bonus from Dexterity from Finesses weapons and use Strength (like it was in 3e). Use Wisdom as your initiative modifier. WHAT?!?


I know crazy… here’s why; sometimes game balance has to take precedence over realism. Also, Wisdom is perception so I could argue that if I can’t perceive anything I can’t reacted to it. I could be the fastest gun in the west but if I’m shot in the back playing cards all that speed doesn’t help me.


7) Charisma the dump stat.
But Charisma does so much! Well, not really. So, how can we fix it. I LOVE action points. This makes NO LOGICAL sense from a reality stand point, but again game balance. Use the Charisma modifier as you action point value. 0 – 13 = 1 action point, 14 – 15 = 2, etc.


8) AoO and movement
I like the feel of the free movement. However, having orcs run by 4 characters to kill the wizard in the back isn’t fun or add to game balance. Yes the Guardian theme can stop ONE person, so 3 go by…still not fun.


There have been suggestions about giving disadvantage to people disengaging or moving through threaten areas (squares). I don’t like this because I think it will just mean people will go for the crazy super action since they can only get one disadvantage penalty (they don’t stack). Another solution could be a disengage roll. However, that adds more rolls.


I would simply say if you have been hit in melee combat on that round you cannot disengage unless you take a FULL ROUND action (hustle action) directly AWAY from the combatant. So, no additional rolls, and anyone can block by Readying an Action and if they hit it stops movement.


9) Surprise Round (removed after further discussion)
That’s all for now.

Modified Lost Mine Of Phandelver Map (removed adventure markers)

DnD Next (5e) GM 2 page info sheet

Iserith's Session 0

Saved for future thoughts

This is a LONG post, but it will be worth the read.

First, let me say I have been playing DnD for almost 30 years. My first experience with D&D was when they weren’t even book they where 5 x 8 pamphlets. I have played every edition and enjoyed them all some better than others. I am someone that didn’t like 4e as much. I think it did some things that were AWESOME! I love the abilities and making characters have unique powers, I didn’t like the over healing, and thought the tactical combat was too much of a focus, and skill challenges where a horrible decision. Home brew games were great, convention living games were horrible for the most part. I have also designed from the ground up 3 (none published table top games), and been a profession (paid for work several years ago) senior game tester for Lucas Arts.




You may have me, I've only been playing for 27 years, but I'm still running the race. 

So how do we make compromises and make the best of the best… well here are some of my ideas;

1) Hit Die (Hit Points)
I don’t like the current system at ALL. Rolling for hit points is SO CRITICAL, people get angry and then as a GM you let them re-roll anyway. SO having a mechanic like this broken imho. Also, has many others have stated the con modifier to the minimum really favors people rolling D4 or D6 over the fighter rolling d10.


So, here is the fix. Your Constitution modifier adds to the number of die you roll taking the highest roll (minimum of 1 die rolled). So my Wizard with a Constitution of 12 (+1) would roll 2d4 taking the highest roll. My Fighter with a 16 Constitution would roll 4d10 taking the highest one. I think this is a great compromise and makes Constitution more useful and players would feel better about the rolling and keep the same “spirit” of what you are trying to do.


2) Health and Healing: 
There needs to be a new system. I personally like Wounds and Vitality (you can still call them Hit points) Wounds equal your Constitution and heal either by magic (healing spells would need new math) or natural healing of 1 per day. Hit Points (Vitality) represent combat endurance and heal to full after a short rest.


Once you run out of Hit Points, you start taking Wound damage. This would increased survivability, maked Constitution a more valuable stat, and it's a pretty good compromise.




While it doesn't have that D&D feel (historically) I think it may be time for D&DN to leave this old model behind, so I am with you on this point. 

3) Critical Hits
I personally like max damage, because rolling 4 on a critical hit roll sucks! However, if you implement #1 Critical hits can still be max damage or an option rule would place a critical hit as normal damage directly to WOUNDS… OUCH!

My favorite option would be Max damage + weapon die roll (since we roll hit die and damage die at same time). It just depends on how deadly you want combat to be.




I thought that maximizing the rider damage, as the rules as presented makes Critical hit plenty lethal, but I also run a game where we throw all the dice at once and this would make being a hero more Heroic.

4) Spell casting. 
Well this is a tough one. I personally really like what they have done with the mix of at-wills and resource casting. I really think it’s hard to tell how it will really play out until we can test level 5 – 10. However, at 3rd level 4e you have at-wills, 2 encounter, 1 utility, & 1 daily: In 5e you have at-wills and 6 dailies, so you max in 5e is 3 encounters before you are empty and in 4E you would still have 2 encounter powers.

I’m really on the fence on this topic, BUT I would increase the casting to:
1st Level: 4
2nd level: 5
3rd Level: 5 and 3




Let me start by saying that I also love what they have done with the Vancian|At-Will hybrid spell system.  Gone are the days when my Wizard has to use crossbows, darts, or daggers to stay effective in combat after my spells are gone, cause Magic Missile never leaves me.  

We part ways a little on this one, but for different reasons.  I remember 3.5 the easiest and it gave a limit of '4' on spell slots per spells and I was always comfortable with that.  I also think that the bonus spells for high INT will come back out too, because Vancian magic always had this (although that is not a reason to keep it).  I just think that the expansive rules haven't come out yet on this one.  I also think 4E is a little overpowered for Wizards when it comes to spells. 

5) Armor:
I don’t get the uproar over Heavy as much as some people. Most of my fighter/tank have never had more than 12 Dexterity so Plate Mail is always better than Medium armor. However, I think it is time the reworked the armor.. so here goes:

Armor & Shields
Light:  + Full Dexterity
Leather: AC 11
Studded Leather: AC 12
Chain Shirt: AC 13
Mithril Chain: AC 14


Medium + 1/2 Dexterity
Ringmail: AC 13
Scale: AC 14
Splint: AC 15
Dragon Scale: AC 16


Heavy + 0 Dexterity
Chainmail: AC 16
Banded: AC 17
Plate: AC 18
Adamantine: AC 19


Shields
Light: AC +1 (No penalty)
Heavy: AC +3 (Eliminates any Dexterity bonus to your AC)




I like the armor fixes.  I think leather is too high to start, and I agree.  Before too many other complain, a Rogue in leather armor with an 18 DEX and hiding will still have a 19 AC, which is better than plate, so it's not all that bad.

6) Dexterity the Super stat
Ok, so this is RADICAL! We have always done it this way needs to change on this topic. So, here goes. Remove damage bonus from Dexterity from Finesses weapons and use Strength (like it was in 3e). Use Wisdom as your initiative modifier. WHAT?!?

I know crazy… here’s why; sometimes game balance has to take precedence over realism. Also, Wisdom is perception so I could argue that if I can’t perceive anything I can’t reacted to it. I could be the fastest gun in the west but if I’m shot in the back playing cards all that speed doesn’t help me.




I like this change as well.  Wearing heavy armor doesn't make someone slower on the uptake for a combat situation, and I always thought using DEX for initiative was kind of bunk. 

7) Charisma the dump stat.
But Charisma does so much! Well, not really. So, how can we fix it. I LOVE action points. This makes NO LOGICAL sense from a reality stand point, but again game balance. Use the Charisma modifier as you action point value. 0 – 13 = 1 action point, 14 – 15 = 2, etc.

8) AoO and movement
I like the feel of the free movement. However, having orcs run by 4 characters to kill the wizard in the back isn’t fun or add to game balance. Yes the Guardian theme can stop ONE person, so 3 go by…still not fun.


There have been suggestions about giving disadvantage to people disengaging or moving through threaten areas (squares). I don’t like this because I think it will just mean people will go for the crazy super action since they can only get one disadvantage penalty (they don’t stack). Another solution could be a disengage roll. However, that adds more rolls.


I would simply say if you have been hit in melee combat on that round you cannot disengage unless you take a FULL ROUND action (hustle action) directly AWAY from the combatant. So, no additional rolls, and anyone can block by Readying an Action and if they hit it stops movement.



That’s all for now.



I'm kind of Meh, on the other two points.  I've never really thought of CHA as a dump stat.  And I'll admit I don't know what the fix is for the combat problems that we've identified so far.  

I'm okay with throwing the ball back in Wizards court and saying, "Come on guys, fix it.  It's been a problem for years and we don't all like the 4E fix(es), so fix it already..."

Otherwise, I would like to be the first to thank you for your post.  I'm always happy to read the proposed fixes over the gripes with no fix. 
I've only been roleplaying for 20 years, so I guess my opinion's worth at least two thirds of yours. That'll have to do:

1] I've never met a GM, nor allowed a player to, reroll his HP at level-up. Really, a less deceptive version of your suggestion would be to just offer a flat HP gain per level dependant on the class, in the vicinity of 2/3 to 3/4 of the current HD roll maximums.

2] Don't entirely disagree, but vitality/wounds is a bit off. All it was was "HP" and "HP versus criticals". Instead, keep HP as your total toughness, but track wounds individually, with the healing applying to the weakest wounds first. Light wounds would heal all together [so ten 2-3 hp cat-scratches would all recover in a day or two], while anything higher than your constitution heals seperately, one point at a time. Without powerful curative magic, something that would have one-shot a two-stack of poor peasants will still leave the fighter bedridden for a week or two, and this makes a lot of sense. Does it suck to be in that condition? sure, but can you really say its improper?

3] Critical hits need to be more than just extra damage. Especially when in a certain previous edition they did nothing to many opponents [so a particularly good hit didn't shatter more bones off that skeleton], and also never stacked with several things [sorry one per round crossbow shot, even your x2 crit can't help you now, the bow did twice your damage by stacking normal hits]. But good luck matching Hackmaster in that department without just blatantly copying them.

4] Actually, its the opposite. With the at-wills available to provide constant utility and limited firepower, too many slots per day for the bigger stuff brings us right back to 'caster edition' woes. The big problem has always been that spells were balanced around difficult casting [which dissapeared with defensive or concentration checks], and a strict limit on how much you can do per day, the actual limits were all but non-existant past levels three or four.

 By the time the full-caster ran out of spells, the party had time to die thrice over. When one or two of your 14+ spells per day were all you needed to completely shift the tide of battle [or end it before it even got to start], it was unreasonable to assume that there was any real worth to "being able to keep going all day" for the fighter, warlock or rogue. That's before all the magic items, of course, since anyone could potentially have those.

 With many basic utilities and offensives being of unlimited use, its even more disingeneous to think for even a moment that the wizard needs more of his big gamechangers per day. We can't pretend he's using half those slots on light, detect magic and other minor utilities anymore, and we shouldn't even have been doing so in 3.x

5] So long as armor does nothing to reduce damage, and is just an oft-inferior, more often bypassed or ignored version of any other defense score bonus, it will be a laughingstock. Turn it into DR; one that applies to everything, with a minor defense penalty on the heavier models [minor; you can still roll around in plate mail, but you are a little bulkier, have a little less visibility, and so are slightly easier to hit], in exchange for the armor being vulnerable itself, and we'll have something we can work with.

 Full Plate could probably ground half a lightning bolt, and do a good job of keeping such a momentary lick of flames from a low-pressure fireball from completely wrecking you... But the former would probably leave it severely damaged, partially fused, and you suffering from a serious case of 'heat metal'. Still, if it saved your life, its done its job. Get something magical if you want it a bit tougher, perhaps with a partial autorepair function.

6] Its long to explain my views so I'll let you figure it out by listing my suggested bonus split. Round down.

Strength: Half bonus to melee attacks [someone with a +3 strength bonus is at +1/+3 for attack/damage]
Dexterity: Odd Bonus to Initiative, Even Bonus to Armor Class [12-13 is +1 init, 14-15 +1 init +1 AC, 16-17 +2 init +1 AC and so on]
Constitution: Half Bonus to DR of all types, but cannot reduce damage below 1. A minor aid, but valuable
Intelligence: Half bonus to all attacks [from leading, feinting, anticipating after noticing a pattern, etc]
Wisdom: Reverse of Dexterity above. Or vice versa. doesn't really matter.
Charisma: You gotta keep that reputation up. Half that bonus versus fatigue.

7] Actually charisma does plenty. In some cases its even a primary caster stat. If anything, it needs Comeliness split back out from it though. See above for a minor boon however. Diplomancers aside, talky skills are very handy when you're not using your immense "don't bother tracking per day" magics to mind-cleanse everyone into greater pliability. See my views on 4...

8] Rather than specific "guardians" or "lulz backstabbz my rouge iz an assassin instead of a bard and conman cuz my class is sneak attakz", ignoring anyone should be a risk, if they so choose to apply it. Unless you're a Xorn with great presence of mind, dealing with multiple opponents should be risky no matter whom you're dealing with, NOT only "I get to do sneak attack". There's too much of that last one anyways, they need to go back to not being a one-trick-pony anyhow.

 This does mean it SHOULD be quite difficult to stop three things from bullrushing the mage unless you're standing in the middle of a fairly narrow corridor. At the same time, if you can off or neutralize the one that's keeping you busy fast enough, you should be in a position to deal some serious damage to whomever's on the mage behind you, as you're now behind them. Perhaps an extra damage die to your weapon, whether that's your mage staff, halberd or whatever.

 AoOs are fine if they're kept quite rare [like one of the three that ran past ignoring you], but we shouldn't be looking at 5+ per round, nor should they be a general mechanic of "all these things give free attacks, except you can make them not do so anyhow". A situational opportunity, is all.

 But it needs to be an option for all, as opposed to a specific build. Things without eyes in the back of their heads that happen to fail to pay attention are exposing themselves quite vulnerably, and you don't need to be a thief to take advantage of that fact. Containing Burning Hands down their leather armor's collar oughta remind them the mage is a threat in melee too.

Since I don't know what I'll be thinking in the future other than various adult content [an educated guess], my thoughts end here for now.

......


First, let me say I have been playing DnD for almost 30 years. My first experience with D&D was when they weren’t even book they where 5 x 8 pamphlets. I have played every edition and enjoyed them all some better than others. I am someone that didn’t like 4e as much. I think it did some things that were AWESOME! I love the abilities and making characters have unique powers, I didn’t like the over healing, and thought the tactical combat was too much of a focus, and skill challenges where a horrible decision. Home brew games were great, convention living games were horrible for the most part. I have also designed from the ground up 3 (none published table top games), and been a profession (paid for work several years ago) senior game tester for Lucas Arts.


So how do we make compromises and make the best of the best… well here are some of my ideas;


1) Hit Die (Hit Points)
I don’t like the current system at ALL. Rolling for hit points is SO CRITICAL, people get angry and then as a GM you let them re-roll anyway. SO having a mechanic like this broken imho. Also, has many others have stated the con modifier to the minimum really favors people rolling D4 or D6 over the fighter rolling d10.


So, here is the fix. Your Constitution modifier adds to the number of die you roll taking the highest roll (minimum of 1 die rolled). So my Wizard with a Constitution of 12 (+1) would roll 2d4 taking the highest roll. My Fighter with a 16 Constitution would roll 4d10 taking the highest one. I think this is a great compromise and makes Constitution more useful and players would feel better about the rolling and keep the same “spirit” of what you are trying to do.




I first played back in middle school around 1979ish.  I am in the middle of putting together a house rules blog under the OGL.  I like your first rule the best and would like to add this to my blog.

Miladoon

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I've only been roleplaying for 20 years, so I guess my opinion's worth at least two thirds of yours. That'll have to do:


Your thoughts are as valueable as everyone else's. I merely put in my time so people would know that I have been playing D&D since the begining and have played all version and found some good and bad things in all version. I like some of your ideas and in a strong sense agree with some of them. However, I was trying to keep it as close to what they had already written where I feel some of your ideas are more complex (i.e rolemaster) suggestions. Great for a more realisitc appraoch.

I first played back in middle school around 1979ish.  I am in the middle of putting together a house rules blog under the OGL.  I like your first rule the best and would like to add this to my blog.

Miladoon


Please use what you like. Thank you

One thing I forgot to mention about spellcasting: Used to be [hackmaster has kept this well] that it took some of that initiative to actually get the spell off. So it wasn't just readied actions for that express purpose that could interrupt: anyone fast enough or that happens to be close enough to your action in the turn had a chance to fling a dart your way.

In 3.0 onwards, your spell went off within your turn, rather than, say, if you went at 20, it finally triggers at 17 [fireball cast time 3]. Spells were damn powerful, but that was one of many limitations that got cut out from under them: they no longer have a casting time.
Hit points and vitality would be a fine system. It would also be nice to see a really transendent stat system where the stats all really mattered, the current model is broken. 
Hit points and vitality would be a fine system. It would also be nice to see a really transendent stat system where the stats all really mattered, the current model is broken. 


My main goal with that is to have a comprimize between the 3e (it's ok to adventure hurt) and the 4e ( I need to be at 100% health to adventure) camps.
Some of these ideas are good, but I cannot agree with WIS for initiative or CHA for action points.

You said it yourself; it makes no logical sense.  That really is a dealbreaker.  Game balance alone is not reason enough to make illogical rules.

I'd rather just remove all ability modifiers from the initiative equation and base it on feats.  (An incredbly dexterous pianist could easily have slow reaction times in combat.)

And charisma is no more a dump stat than wisdom or intelligence.  Casters who need it will use it; others will not.  All three have saving throws and ability checks attached to them, so all are equally useful to non-casters.
If your position is that the official rules don't matter, or that house rules can fix everything, please don't bother posting in forums about the official rules. To do so is a waste of everyone's time.

This is a LONG post, but it will be worth the read.


First, let me say I have been playing DnD for almost 30 years. My first experience with D&D was when they weren’t even book they where 5 x 8 pamphlets. I have played every edition and enjoyed them all some better than others. I am someone that didn’t like 4e as much. I think it did some things that were AWESOME! I love the abilities and making characters have unique powers, I didn’t like the over healing, and thought the tactical combat was too much of a focus, and skill challenges where a horrible decision. Home brew games were great, convention living games were horrible for the most part. I have also designed from the ground up 3 (none published table top games), and been a profession (paid for work several years ago) senior game tester for Lucas Arts.


So how do we make compromises and make the best of the best… well here are some of my ideas;


1) Hit Die (Hit Points)


You are right that this will help the low die classes more than the high die classes.  Maybe that is what they want for survivability.

Another solution I remember as a house rule was you could roll or you could take 1/2 the max roll.  Then again con bonus added to total hp for each level.


2) Health and Healing:
 
There needs to be a new system. I personally like Wounds and Vitality (you can still call them Hit points) Wounds equal your Constitution and heal either by magic (healing spells would need new math) or natural healing of 1 per day. Hit Points (Vitality) represent combat endurance and heal to full after a short rest.

Other games did this.  It usually began to be a problem at high levels as massive damage would blow through both pools till you lost the effect you were trying to get.


3) Critical Hits
I personally like max damage, because rolling 4 on a critical hit roll sucks! However, if you implement #1 Critical hits can still be max damage or an option rule would place a critical hit as normal damage directly to WOUNDS… OUCH!


No comment or maybe crits should be made optional with multiple methods. The DM can then choose how deadly.  I have played and run with more methods than I can remember but our group still talks about the game when the thief put his dagger through the ancient red dragon eye into his brain killing him in one shot. Roll a 20 followed be 100 on a d100 for an instant kill.  Thet was over 30 years ago.  So deadly crit system will make some combats very memorable. 

4) Spell casting.
 
Well this is a tough one. I personally really like what they have done with the mix of at-wills and resource casting. I really think it’s hard to tell how it will really play out until we can test level 5 – 10. However, at 3rd level 4e you have at-wills, 2 encounter, 1 utility, & 1 daily: In 5e you have at-wills and 6 dailies, so you max in 5e is 3 encounters before you are empty and in 4E you would still have 2 encounter powers.


Holding any comment till I can see higher level spell casting.  A wizard didn't really mater till 5th level.

5) Armor:
I don’t get the uproar over Heavy as much as some people. Most of my fighter/tank have never had more than 12 Dexterity so Plate Mail is always better than Medium armor. However, I think it is time the reworked the armor.. so here goes:


Armor & Shields
Light:  + Full Dexterity
Leather: AC 11
Studded Leather: AC 12
Chain Shirt: AC 13
Mithril Chain: AC 14


Medium + 1/2 Dexterity
Ringmail: AC 13
Scale: AC 14
Splint: AC 15
Dragon Scale: AC 16


Heavy + 0 Dexterity
Chainmail: AC 16
Banded: AC 17
Plate: AC 18
Adamantine: AC 19


Shields
Light: AC +1 (No penalty)
Heavy: AC +3 (Eliminates any Dexterity bonus to your AC)


Looks good

6) Dexterity the Super stat
Ok, so this is RADICAL! We have always done it this way needs to change on this topic. So, here goes. Remove damage bonus from Dexterity from Finesses weapons and use Strength (like it was in 3e). Use Wisdom as your initiative modifier. WHAT?!?


Wisdom as Int is ok with me.  As for realism it all depends on how you define Initive then again have no problem with it based upon Dex.  All depends which class you want to help.  Though basing it on wisdom would kill anyone wanting to play a light or medium fighter.  Would make heavy armor fighter the best build.  Strength and wisdom.  Damage, Defense, Initive and Control Resist (which was always a fighters weakness).

7) Charisma the dump stat.
But Charisma does so much! Well, not really. So, how can we fix it. I LOVE action points. This makes NO LOGICAL sense from a reality stand point, but again game balance. Use the Charisma modifier as you action point value. 0 – 13 = 1 action point, 14 – 15 = 2, etc.


Charisma has always been a DM game problem.  Game base on negotiation as opposed to kicking the door down and killing everything made big differences in how that stat was viewed and used.  No amount of rules would change that.

8) AoO and movement
I like the feel of the free movement. However, having orcs run by 4 characters to kill the wizard in the back isn’t fun or add to game balance. Yes the Guardian theme can stop ONE person, so 3 go by…still not fun.


Make a new ability called martial.  All fighter some cleric and maybe a few thief would get it.  If you are a martial class a monster and creatures one size larger or lower are stopped when they move adjacent.  Monster and characters can work their way pas a martial character or try to knock him down or back but just trying to run past him would not be possible.

9) Surprise Round (removed after further discussion)

That’s all for now.




Some of these ideas are good, but I cannot agree with WIS for initiative or CHA for action points.

You said it yourself; it makes no logical sense.  That really is a dealbreaker.  Game balance alone is not reason enough to make illogical rules.

I'd rather just remove all ability modifiers from the initiative equation and base it on feats.  (An incredbly dexterous pianist could easily have slow reaction times in combat.)

And charisma is no more a dump stat than wisdom or intelligence.  Casters who need it will use it; others will not.  All three have saving throws and ability checks attached to them, so all are equally useful to non-casters.


Well, we have to agree to disagree. I do beleive sometimes game balance is more important than reality, especially in a fantasy game. However, the Wisdom does make sense to me. Since Wisdom is perception you can easily argue that having a higher Wisdom would allow you to act more quickly to a situation because you can perceive it faster. As far as Intelligence being a dump stat we could easily fix that with it giving bonus skills (like it use to), and the initiative fix, fixes Wisdom.

I would like the goal to be NO dump stats, yes some stats more important than others for your class or play sytle but not stats that you are like that will never affect my character. Suggestions welcome to help make no dump stats.
I've been doing this kind of thing since the beginning.  If tenure matters (and it doesn't), mine matters as much as yours.  That being said:

5) Armor:

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">I don’t get the uproar over Heavy as much as some people. Most of my fighter/tank have never had more than 12 Dexterity so Plate Mail is always better than Medium armor.


..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">The problem is that Heavy and Medium armor are *worse* than Light armor.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">Objectively worse.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">Undeniably worse. 
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">If you have a giant amount of money that nobody can possibly get at first level, heavy armor *can* give a better AC than light - but, nobody can get that amount of money.  And unless you HAVE that amount of money, Chainmail is a trap.  Medium armor is a trap.  The Chain Shirt is, if you have Dex 12+, objectively better than ANY Medium or Heavy armor available at creation.  If you don't have Dex 12+, then it is at most 1 AC lower... and by taking that 1AC penalty, you don't completely annihilate your whole party's chance of every getting a Surprise round.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
I've never met a GM, nor allowed a player to, reroll his HP at level-up. Really, a less deceptive version of your suggestion would be to just offer a flat HP gain per level dependant on the class, in the vicinity of 2/3 to 3/4 of the current HD roll maximums.



I've played OD&D for 35 years or so and I've done HP many ways in various campaigns. I've tried using the maximum value, an average value, 75% of the maximum, and others like that. The real issue is how to save low-level characters a little bit more without making them invincible later on. I first heard the "re-roll each time you level up" variant a few years ago and now it's my go-to system. If someone rolls really high early he tends not to advance for a couple more levels, but if he rolls really low early he has a higher chance to improve his lot the next time he levels up. It's kind of a self-correcting system. I even use it when I have a player generate an above-level character from scratch and it works pretty well there also.

- - - - -

As far as Andrelai's comments on game balance, I think it's a tricky issue. I've played RPGs for 30 years, have playtested many game systems, and have author credit on a game I wrote, so I've spent a lot of time thinking about this particular question. I won't claim to have "the answer" for everyone, but here's my take on the issue of game balance:

There are a couple of types of game balance. Balance of one character versus another, balance of characters versus monsters, and balance of the overall mechanic.

I don't think that the first two types really need balance. If one class is a little stronger, but the players are working together, then things work out okay. If the character-monster balance is out of whack the GM can simply adjust to use stronger or weaker monsters. It's the third kind that is the hardest to ignore.

Consider the six stats. The three combat stats (STR, CON, DEX) are clearly the best in most situations, so it's the job of a good game designer to come up with ways to make the other stats valuable because if INT, WIS, and CHA aren't valuable then they should be removed and the game becomes a combat simulator instead of a RPG. So, how do you make INT, WIS, and CHA worthwhile so that a gronk fighter will regret not having decent numbers there? Tying INT to knowledge and lore is a nice way to go, and allow many urban situations to focus around CHA. I like to let WIS influence perception, as I look at the stat as being how one sees the world around him. Maybe not the most "logical" but it's important if you want the game to work well internally. Basically, a well designed game would leave players wishing for six above-average stats. If there is any stat which is sub-par and a player doesn't feel the pain for the weakness, then the game design is flawed.

Just my two cents. 

Marv (Finarvyn) Master of Mutants (MA and GW) Playing 5E D&D and liking it! OD&D player since 1975

Just over 20 years here, since we've all weighed in.

Specifically, however, we've been using Vigor/Health split mechanics ever since Monte Cook introduced the idea to me (indirectly through his Malhavoc press products).  No matter the system, it just makes much more sense to have your Endurance and your Flesh and Blood separated; so 100% agreement here.  After our 'core' playtest, we took to tweaking a few things to test them out.

For the first step, we ignored any nominalized hit point acquisition and did straight-up rolling.  As Monte Cook first introduced, Dice Roll -1 is added to Vigor at each level.  Constitution Modifier +1 is added to Health at every level.  (We did not allow any rerolls).

The next step was to ignore the lack of a touch AC and add one so that spells could target that instead of AC (because we know that rogue's armor is completely effective against a blast of light).

Then, we added opportunity attacks and all the mid-turn goodness the core product lacked, and even brought into account tumbling checks.  (Dexterity Check, with a bonus based on any Tumble skill things you may acquire) against the passive dexterity of any defender.  Regardless of what attribute the defender may attack with, his physical reaction speed limits his ability to react to someone tumbling past him, etc.

Long-story short, the system is -highly- easy to manipulate.  Your idea of using Wisdom for initiative is something I've toyed with before, and it is a nice change, but no matter how mentally swift someone is to react, how fast can their body pull it off always comes into question (at least amongst my group).  We've gone using both, actually.  That being said, since Initiative has no level scale, adding two attribute modifiers is still equally beneficial all around.

The cleric in Full Plate might have +5 (1 dex, 4 wisdom), so he can compete with the rogue who is the exact opposite (4 dex, 1 wisdom) etc.  Its worked well for us.  We've actually been using it since 3.0, no complaints yet.

Using Charisma for action points is actually something we've used frequently as well, especially in our 3.5 Eberron campaigns.  In a world with charisma-powered dragonmarks, I found it especially fitting and would love to see an alternate mechanic like that included.

Armor and AC is broken, I couldn't agree more.  Then again, we always prefer armor as DR in our games (I'm sure a supplement Wizards is already accounting for releasing with DnDNext).  Our playtest included a very basic Touch AC is increased by Armor AC, and if the attack fell into the armor range, you reduced the damage in half.  If it met your Armored AC or higher, you took full damage.

Not the greatest 'armor as DR' mechanic to date, but we love testing the throws of the game inside and out, and it honestly surprised me how well it worked.

Finally, as far as healing goes, I'm still 100% against 'returning all hit points per extended rest' mechanic.  I hated it from day 1 4e, and I'll continue to hate it.  Splitting our hit points between Health and Vigor led to the very simple 'regain all vigor upon rest' and 'health needs time or healing' approach and it worked exceptionally.

Again though, I think they'll stick with the really simple approach out of the box and go for the optional resources for these advanced mechanics, much like the ADnD 2e approach.  One can hope at least =)
Hit points and vitality would be a fine system. It would also be nice to see a really transendent stat system where the stats all really mattered, the current model is broken. 


My main goal with that is to have a comprimize between the 3e (it's ok to adventure hurt) and the 4e ( I need to be at 100% health to adventure) camps.


I don't understand where you got your camp divides from.
In 3.x, I hate adventuring hurt.  it's a bad idea, and, because of Wands of LV/CLW, easy to stay at 100%.

In 4e, I'm FAR more likely to adventure hurt/missing surges/having spent a few dailies.

Ahh, so THIS is where I can add a sig. Remember: Killing an ancient God inside of a pyramid IS a Special Occasion, and thus, ladies should be dipping into their Special Occasions underwear drawer.
2] Don't entirely disagree, but vitality/wounds is a bit off. All it was was "HP" and "HP versus criticals". Instead, keep HP as your total toughness, but track wounds individually, with the healing applying to the weakest wounds first. Light wounds would heal all together [so ten 2-3 hp cat-scratches would all recover in a day or two], while anything higher than your constitution heals seperately, one point at a time. Without powerful curative magic, something that would have one-shot a two-stack of poor peasants will still leave the fighter bedridden for a week or two, and this makes a lot of sense. Does it suck to be in that condition? sure, but can you really say its improper?



I think I remember something like this from the original Boot Hill, which had the option of taking -3 and -7 damages from getting shot.  Light and Serious, I think.  It's been a long time, and we bastardized that game so much I don't rightly recall which rules were original, but each wound healed 1 point a week.  So two, even 3 light (-3) wounds healed much faster than one serious (-7).  Seems to me something along those lines could create a compromise between the Heal it all in one night, and heal 1 HD total in one night, camps.  Though it would definitely add to the paper (Pencil) work.
I've only been roleplaying for 20 years, so I guess my opinion's worth at least two thirds of yours. That'll have to do:

1] I've never met a GM, nor allowed a player to, reroll his HP at level-up. Really, a less deceptive version of your suggestion would be to just offer a flat HP gain per level dependant on the class, in the vicinity of 2/3 to 3/4 of the current HD roll maximums.

3] Critical hits need to be more than just extra damage. Especially when in a certain previous edition they did nothing to many opponents [so a particularly good hit didn't shatter more bones off that skeleton], and also never stacked with several things [sorry one per round crossbow shot, even your x2 crit can't help you now, the bow did twice your damage by stacking normal hits]. But good luck matching Hackmaster in that department without just blatantly copying them.

5] So long as armor does nothing to reduce damage, and is just an oft-inferior, more often bypassed or ignored version of any other defense score bonus, it will be a laughingstock. Turn it into DR; one that applies to everything, with a minor defense penalty on the heavier models [minor; you can still roll around in plate mail, but you are a little bulkier, have a little less visibility, and so are slightly easier to hit], in exchange for the armor being vulnerable itself, and we'll have something we can work with.

 Full Plate could probably ground half a lightning bolt, and do a good job of keeping such a momentary lick of flames from a low-pressure fireball from completely wrecking you... But the former would probably leave it severely damaged, partially fused, and you suffering from a serious case of 'heat metal'. Still, if it saved your life, its done its job. Get something magical if you want it a bit tougher, perhaps with a partial autorepair function.




I agree with point #5 completely. Armor shouldn't help dodge an attack, armor should be about damage resistance. This allows a wide range of complexities when it comes to armor. Because armor being reduced down to AC, weight, and Dex penalty is too simple and boring. An armor example could be an Ice Giant hide armor re-enforced with dragonbone and stitched together with acid toad tongue. This armor would grant frost, fire, and acid protection bonuses along with regular damage protections.... This adds fluff and crunch to an area were figthers are heavily dependent upon. Their equipment.

I also agree with #1 and #3. They just seem right to me.
How about Luck?  Charisma acting as a Luck stat? 

Gives you advantage once per use, can be done each time equal to your Cha modifier?

I agree with point #5 completely. Armor shouldn't help dodge an attack, armor should be about damage resistance.



I semi agree with this, completely with you on everything else. 

Yes the heavier armours should add to damage resistance, but they should also add to AC - in my belief anyway. Think of the fighter in the full plate who just lets the enemies blades bounce/slide off his armour. 

I'm not sure that this could simply be modeled with Damage Resistence. So you have a much lower AC, and are hit A LOT, therefore your damage resistence has to be reasonably high - especially to model all these lesser blows glancing off your metal plate. 

So the thing that is really going to damage you then is the HUGE damage attacks, Sneak Attack, Fireballs etc. This in turn means characters who can't deal massive spikes of damage (Strikers, using 4e terminology) would have little to no effect on you. Which means that you don't bother fighting fighter with fighter (Too many uses of the word 'fight' there, I know).

The above said, I will whole heartedly give any presented armour system that seems to work a shot. I'm not saying that it can't happen, just that I can't see how it can happen.



Also, unrelated to armour, and to do with the Vitality/Wounds - the current HP are practically Vitality if I have understood how it has been presented thus far - so really all you would need is a small Module/Addition, correct?

That said, I agree, a wound system would do the game some good.

How about Luck?  Charisma acting as a Luck stat? 

Gives you advantage once per use, can be done each time equal to your Cha modifier?



I say luck and action points.  Anything that give players more options to have fun is a good thing.

I also really like a lot of the points made by Xaelvaen, and I would like to thank you for including them here for us to read.  I've never been a fan of Vigor/Health; Armor/Body point system because I always thought that HP was sufficient.

However, now that I've read a lot of other posts from younger posters that are more used to a split health system, I think WoTC could do themselves a lot of favors by really considering a change in this regard.  Even running it as a playtest and letting the players tell them which system they like better. 

One idea I really liked was using Wisdom for inititative.   It does help balance the Dex super-stat, and makes more intuitive characters better.   If you wanted to be more "realistic" (suffering a small level of complexity), use the highest of either Wisdom or Dex.  Wise, experienced people are less caught off guard the same way that people with good reflexes are.


The random hit points thing (is that even official?) doesn't seem like as big of an issue since they can print whatever they want but I'll still just give either max or 1/2 hit die each level and be done with it.  I hate randomly rolled HP so much I'll never, ever use it:  but some people like it and that's fine, too.  This is just one of those things where they can or should just create "modules" or something that you can tack on as a sort of standardized house rules:  things we all agree work or that add a certain flavor or balance or whatever and are completely optional.  In fact, hopefully they will use that model as a standard for how they publish additional materials - instead of the "everything is core" model where it was impossible to keep up and harder to remove something you didn't like since you had to find it first.


 In my mind, a fix for a rule has to follow one truism or it's not much of a fix:  it has to be simpler than the rule it replaces.  The thing I love most about 5.0 so far is that their rules tend to follow this path.  I think some of these suggestions don't do this. 

The silouhette system has Influence and Psyche as "charisma" analogues. The former is one's social skill bonus, the ability to get folks to see your way better, but the other is general 'happiness' and mental well-being. Lots of newbies often use it as a dump-stat, and I imagine a handful view "extra stat points in exchange for being angsty" as quite a bonus.

The reality of it, is that Psyche doubles as your luck rolls. When comes time to pick someone at random, roll off psyches, or work off the worst one. When there's a roll that's not covered by a specific skill? Psyche. Playing Slots? Psyche. "Is there anyone in this town that can  help me with X? and is he in town right now?" Psyche. It also affects your health.
I actually really like the charisma = action points idea, and I think it is justifiable.  One of the traits of a "charismatic hero" is that sometimes they do something amazing that appears "effortless."  APs linked to charisma would make that happen.  (It would also play really well into a future Bard, as part of the "Jack of All Trades" thing they have going.  Instead of specializing in one thing, a few times a day the Bard can just do *anything* a little bit better/faster than anyone else.)
I actually really like the charisma = action points idea, and I think it is justifiable.  One of the traits of a "charismatic hero" is that sometimes they do something amazing that appears "effortless."  APs linked to charisma would make that happen.  (It would also play really well into a future Bard, as part of the "Jack of All Trades" thing they have going.  Instead of specializing in one thing, a few times a day the Bard can just do *anything* a little bit better/faster than anyone else.)



Thanks. I thought it could be justified some what and it adds game balance to other stats.
Been playing since...a week, but it doesn't takes 25 years to see that there is something off with some ruling.

personnaly of my "tiny D&D experience" but "huge Wargames experience" having to roll to decide for you HP, is just lame...

You will always have the case of the lucky guy who makes a rogue or ranger and make max roll for Hit Die, and the guy who wants to roll for a pally and get nothing but low results...

This kind of things was one of the reasons why i never played a D&D game before 4th ed, its way too random, specilly in a game where you can play for months/years with the same character.

Naturally something can be done, and Constitution should matter in this, just not the Roll die and crosse fingers thing.

For the HP/Wounds, at first i though that it would be bothersome to keep track of it, after all you allready need to keep track of a ton of things during combat, so tracking the difference between Hp's and Wounds could be more bothersome then anything else, in this kind of situation its better to keep it simple.

I don't have a particullar though on how crits must be handeled, it can be a double dmg, or add 1DX dmg or even +50% dmg.

For the spell casting, to me its seems just outright stupid that a mage or even any other class who can cast spells is limited and then ends up with just his basic attack, or nothing at all...

The guy do  this for a living(or he lives for this, depends on how you see it), but off course there need to be some mechanic to prevents abuse and overpowering.

There is two ways i think you can look at it.

1) Aside for At-Wills, you can use an encounter power a total times of 1+ the half of your lvl, rounding to the inferior; exemple; a lvl 2 Wizard would be able to cast 2 times an encounter spell, same for a lvl3, but a lvl 4 gains one more use of it.

Like this you ensure that while at low lvl it stays balanced, the more you advance in a carreer, the better you get at casting your spells.

And all the 5 lvls, you gain an additional use of a daily during a combat, but once a daily's charge used, you can reuse it if you got an extended rest.

2) aside for daily's make everything else At-Will, just diminish some of the dmg output, one of the problems, is that the spells how they are can be pretty powerfull, and that why they are restricted, but if you tone them done a bit, just a tiny bit, then you can use them more often.

Lets say an encounter type or daily spell does 3D8 dmg, tone it down to 2D10 or 3D6 and allow for additional uses of it.

Nothing really particular to see about armors

As far as i'm okey with the CHA=Action points stuff, the Wise=Initiative is just...dumb.

You say Wise=perception...well no.

Some one can take wise decisions and still miss something happening or simply not noticing whats going on.

Someone with alot of Wisdom, is just that, Wise, he can take the right decisions and think through anaticaly, it doesn't mean that he Perceves stuffs around him better then someone else.

Someone good at Perception has good eyes/senses, simple as that.

But i agree that Initiative shouldn't be on DEX alone, a simple way is to add a CLass mechanic, depending on the class they get initiative bonus on some given Stats.

MY 4th ED char is a Revenant/Tieflin Infernal Blade, so i don't have much Dex, but i can take the Imperious Majesty wich allow me to take my CHarisma instead of my Dex for the Initiative rolls!

NOw give a similar feat for every kind of Stats, depending on the class, and you are good to go.

There a Cleric with high WIS, can use it for Init rolls, a Figther could use a mix of 13/ Dex and 2/3 Str, and vice versa for the rogue/ranger and so on.

For the AoO's i think someone engaged in melee with someone else as more difficulty's to go past him then someone who isn't.

Not necceserly let them locked in combat unable to move, and also not letting pass by without any kind of retribution.

A way of doing it, is when a melee engaged npc/pc want to get out of combat and run past his foe, by passing and adjacent tile, he gets an AoO OR the NPC/PC he his trying to get past can try to stop him and Tackle him, by making a Str VS  REF or VIG check or something else.

SO it would be like this, if an Orc try to get past the Cleric/FIgther, 1) The Cleric Figther let him through but he gets a free attack, 2) The deny him the occasion to past them and stay engaged togheter.

Thats just some of my thougts and how i see the game, feel free to do what you want with itWink
Chaosrex, you have some interesting points. I do like the idea of doing encounter powers based on level, but I think Wizards is trying to move away from that. But I do like the theory behind your idea.

The Wisdom for initiative is to help reduce the super stat of Decterity. As far as Wisdom = perception I did make that up it's in the game that to see or hear something  you make a Wisdom check.

I just used it to help justify why you could use WIsdom as initiative, because you can't act if you can't perceve it, or you act slower because of your low perception. But honestly, it's just a game balance suggestion to try and level out all stats. 
Health and Healing:


To complex IMO. I don't think it needs to change.

HP

For Hit Points we give Max HP for three levels then you roll from there on out. We always felt that was fair for everyone and if they do not put that in the rules it will be our first house rule.
Health and Healing:


To complex IMO. I don't think it needs to change.

HP

For Hit Points we give Max HP for three levels then you roll from there on out. We always felt that was fair for everyone and if they do not put that in the rules it will be our first house rule.


That's great if you only home brew games. We play (and thousands) play living games that need solid rules for all conventions and other living campaigns.

That's my goal with my feedback is to suggest things to make the core used rules better. I can fix any system with home rules, but that doesn't help when I go to a convention and they are using core rules
As far as i'm okey with the CHA=Action points stuff, the Wise=Initiative is just...dumb.

You say Wise=perception...well no.

Some one can take wise decisions and still miss something happening or simply not noticing whats going on.

Someone with alot of Wisdom, is just that, Wise, he can take the right decisions and think through anaticaly, it doesn't mean that he Perceves stuffs around him better then someone else.

Someone good at Perception has good eyes/senses, simple as that.



Well, the game itself belies this. It explicitly states that wisdom represents how attuned you are to your surroundings, how aware you are of the things around you. In this case they are using Wis in it's more zen-like definition, where wisdom represents how "present" you are - a measure of your ability to be in the moment, rather than lost in yourself. A high wisdom indicates that you are attuned to your surroundings and are able to take yourself out of the equation.

Howdy folks,

I have moved this thread to the Playtest Packet Discussion forum.

Thanks.  

All around helpful simian

I like the thought of wisdom for initiative.  I would suggest Wisdom -or- Dexterity, whichever is higher -- but that does not keep Dex from being overpowered.  The problem is that Dex is just so encompasing on the physical combat side that you can basically logically apply it to anything.  Dex makes your swings faster = more force = more damage.  Dex makes you faster = AC.  Dex makes you faster = dodge in saves.  It should be weakened a bit.  Still, initiative is _most_ important for thieves, and you are hurting them the most.

Luck points for charisma= advantage per day = nice

For HP, in my groups play test it was more of a daily resource and it ticked down slowly.  I do not see the need of a more complex system.  I do like it though.

For rolling HP, I suggest a single die roll, but take the greater of your die roll or your con bonus.  So if you roll a 1 or 2 and you have a 16 con, you get 3 HP.  Simple, elegant, and covers all the bases.

I would love to see fighters have special attacks (a domain specialization) they could do based on wisdom, charisma, or intelligence.  For example:
     wisdom build: intuition... and the fighter gets an extra move as part of an attack their wisdom modifier + 1 times per day.
     charisma build: intimidation... the fighter hits and the target must will save 13 or flee charisma modifier + 1 times per day. 
     intelligence build: tactics... the fighter can force a single target he hits to move away from him 5', and he can take the targets square (optional) intelligence modifier + 1 times per day.

That may make the game harder, but encourage fighters to be more then just a tank.  Bribe them with specializations
 
I haven't read the whole thread as I'm using my phone so forgive me if someone has mentioned this.

Your point about hp becoming wounds and vitality really makes sense to me, but I'd say your wounds should increase by your con mod every level and your vitality by your HD. This gives high level characters more 'life' without being to unrealistic.

This the offers an alternative to max damage on a critical. A critical hit does damage directly to your wounds (or possibly half wounds half hp) so people still get to roll for damage and a lucky crit is stil dangerous to a high lvl character

This would then allow an altern
I haven't read the whole thread as I'm using my phone so forgive me if someone has mentioned this. Your point about hp becoming wounds and vitality really makes sense to me, but I'd say your wounds should increase by your con mod every level and your vitality by your HD. This gives high level characters more 'life' without being to unrealistic. This the offers an alternative to max damage on a critical. A critical hit does damage directly to your wounds (or possibly half wounds half hp) so people still get to roll for damage and a lucky crit is stil dangerous to a high lvl character This would then allow an altern


That is a nice idea. That way you are showing progress in both areas. The one thing about SW d20 was never getting more wounds.
While it is probably to radical to serious consider, one alternative might also it not to make HP related to level.  In Exalted you only gain more HP when you pick up charms which specifically increase you HP and certain classes get a lot more from this than others.  Most feel this is bit extreme though so a common house rule is you gain more XP when you take a physical related charm.  You were limited in how many you could purchase by your physical scores.  Psionic body in 3.5 already basically works this way giving Psionics bonus HP every time they take a psi feat.  So basically each class would get a number of HP perhaps based on your con score, every-time they took an appropriate feat rather then when they leveled.

The advantage is of course character can decide what they feel their character needs, more power or more defense.  The downside of course, which is why I think most system don't employ this concept, is you'll probably have a lot of people ignore their HP in favor of flashy powers (making it effectively a dump stat) and die.

Edit:  To be clear I'm not saying this should be how HP is handled in 5th edition, I'm just observing what other game systems have tried. 
The more I think about a Wounds/HP system the more it seems to offer a solution to some of the complaints people have been complaining about. The main one i'm referring to is Medium/Heavy armor. Currently light armor grants a superior AC which is fairly unrealistic and medium is just outclassed by heavy. A nice compromise would be that heavier armor offers a form of DR that only applies against wounds damage.

For example, Medium armor doesn't reduce your speed and offers DR 1/Wounds. In the event your HP is reduced to your Wounds lvl then you now reduce all damage by 1 and can use your higher speed to escape. Heavy armor reduces speed but also offers DR 2/Wounds to reduce all wounds damage by 2. You probably wont escape, but in your most desperate moment you can stand longer than anyone else.

These would obviously still work against a critical hit to help keep you going where a light armor wielder would not. This would then offer an alternative to the 3E fortification armor enhancement (and creatures immune to crits). Instead of granting immunity to criticals it increases your DR/Wounds to make you more resistant to crits without making them obsolete.

The Wounds offer an answer to another problem in old editions that wouldn't exist anymore. A lvl 5 rogue sneaks into a building and slits the throat of a lvl 20 fighter with a coup de grace. The fighter has so many HP he gets up and beats the rogue silly. In this scenario, the damage would obviously go directly to his wounds, probably killing. even a high lvl character instantly

Obviously with this system certain things are to powerful. Increasing crit ranges is an absolute no go area, and increasing crit damage must be very small amounts as to much could practically end any combat with a lucky roll.
The more I think about a Wounds/HP system the more it seems to offer a solution to some of the complaints people have been complaining about. The main one i'm referring to is Medium/Heavy armor. Currently light armor grants a superior AC which is fairly unrealistic and medium is just outclassed by heavy. A nice compromise would be that heavier armor offers a form of DR that only applies against wounds damage. For example, Medium armor doesn't reduce your speed and offers DR 1/Wounds. In the event your HP is reduced to your Wounds lvl then you now reduce all damage by 1 and can use your higher speed to escape. Heavy armor reduces speed but also offers DR 2/Wounds to reduce all wounds damage by 2. You probably wont escape, but in your most desperate moment you can stand longer than anyone else. These would obviously still work against a critical hit to help keep you going where a light armor wielder would not. This would then offer an alternative to the 3E fortification armor enhancement (and creatures immune to crits). Instead of granting immunity to criticals it increases your DR/Wounds to make you more resistant to crits without making them obsolete. The Wounds offer an answer to another problem in old editions that wouldn't exist anymore. A lvl 5 rogue sneaks into a building and slits the throat of a lvl 20 fighter with a coup de grace. The fighter has so many HP he gets up and beats the rogue silly. In this scenario, the damage would obviously go directly to his wounds, probably killing. even a high lvl character instantly Obviously with this system certain things are to powerful. Increasing crit ranges is an absolute no go area, and increasing crit damage must be very small amounts as to much could practically end any combat with a lucky roll.


All good points. It also addresses the complaint to a critical hit not really meaning much. Max damage to 100 hit points doesn't seem special but straight to Wounds and now we are talking something more.
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