May Errata: Wow, um.... that's it?

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Obligatory link.

As my regular readers will no doubt know, I usually write a short review here extolling the positive and making snark about the negative. This time, there's nothing. Because there's basically nothing to snark about. Ah well.

2cp for your thoughts?
A Beginners Primer to CharOp. Archmage's Ascension - The Wizard's Handbook. Let the Hammer Fall: Dwarf Warpriest/Tactical Warpriest/Indomitable Champion, a Defending Leader. Requiem for Dissent: Cleric/Fighter/Paragon of Victory Melee Leader Ko te manu e kai i te miro, nona te ngahere. Ko te manu e kai i te matauranga e, nano te ao katoa. It's the proliferation of people who think the rules are more important than what the rules are meant to accomplish. - Dedekine
I may be remembering wrong, but wasn't the last round of Errata rather large? If it was, that may give some sort of reason, but still...
Elemental Rift (encounter keyword, daily power).  Suppress Element (same).

Demonimicon item useless.

Elementalist powers should have been level 1 sorc. powers.

Firewind blade.

All the 2/4/6 keyword-less attacks.

*sigh*.  Well, I get to keep my new firewind blade.  That's keen. 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Sigh.  So much to errata, and that's IT?!

I guess I'll go back to mincing mobs with Rending Weapon autocrit cheese.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Yes the last errata was big.  Still a lot of the current errata issues are not complicated and have been pointed out for a while.

Battle clerics lore can be fixed easily for instance.  My current suggestion in the errata threads is to remove the scale proficiency and add in a +2 shield bonus to reflex.  Its good enough that it won't hurt standard templar builds at all and is still useful for hybrids, but removes all the shenanigans around getting scale with no prereqs or feats.

People have been pointing out how to fix the 2/4/6 with no keyword issue for years.  But they are still printing powers with that so my guess is they just don't care.
3/6/9

is it really that complicated
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Yes the last errata was big.  Still a lot of the current errata issues are not complicated and have been pointed out for a while.

Battle clerics lore can be fixed easily for instance.  My current suggestion in the errata threads is to remove the scale proficiency and add in a +2 shield bonus to reflex.  Its good enough that it won't hurt standard templar builds at all and is still useful for hybrids, but removes all the shenanigans around getting scale with no prereqs or feats.



Actually, BCL should just add scale proficiency to the Cleric armor list - i.e. it doesn't make you proficient in Scale Armor unless you're using the Cleric armor list. That fixes the problem without any changes to Templar builds.
The only problem with that is that there are a lot of chain, but not scale, enchantments that are designed for clerics or which at least work really well for clerics.  Astral fire armor, healer's armor, rebuking armor, exalted armor, shared valor armor, etc.

Your solution works fine too, but my solution gives templars a good reason to stick with chain.
3/6/9

is it really that complicated


"Math is hard!" -- WotC Barbie
3/6/9

is it really that complicated


"Math is hard!" -- WotC Barbie



Actually, a bit more complicated than that because you usually lose various bonuses to damage. Most of them should have a +2/6/10 damage bonus.

But that looks like a completely lost cause. 
So as far as I can tell, the current errata cycle is "these books, those dragon issues, and occassionally a bigger issue".  So apparently last month's books were just HotEC, and they decided nothing in last month's dragon needed fixin'.

(Werecheese ftw)

So don't expect fixes to BCL any time soon...

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Am I the only one who remembers that they said they were continuing a 3-month major errata cycle?  Did I make that up completely?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Another month with Death from Two Sides not requiring a free action. Ahhh...
I guess everything will be getting fixed in the June errata -
In addition, twice per year we will tackle more substantial issues that require direct developer input. Those updates will be released in June and December.


From here - wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ro3/...
It just seems like a carrot on a stick.  "Not this month boys, maybe next month."
So, werecheese, BCL, attacks without impliment or weapon... out of curiosity, what else were people expecting to be errated?
What about hybrid Executioner's basic attacks?

Also, does 'werecheese' refer to claw gloves + werewolf theme?
So, werecheese, BCL, attacks without impliment or weapon... out of curiosity, what else were people expecting to be errated?
What about hybrid Executioner's basic attacks?

Also, does 'werecheese' refer to claw gloves + werewolf theme?



Yes, but it's not cheese. Neither is BCL for that matter. The only thing that needs errata is the third one you mentioned.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
So, werecheese, BCL, attacks without impliment or weapon... out of curiosity, what else were people expecting to be errated?
What about hybrid Executioner's basic attacks?

Also, does 'werecheese' refer to claw gloves + werewolf theme?



Yes, but it's not cheese. Neither is BCL for that matter. The only thing that needs errata is the third one you mentioned.



Oh, I agree that they aren't game breaking enough to be errataed.
I was just curious what was on the chopping block.

Even the latest Dragon 202 had some issues that were not addressed...Wink

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Also, does 'werecheese' refer to claw gloves + werewolf theme?

Yes, but it's not cheese.

IMHO, Werecheese is cheese: the intent of claw gloves was likely "beast form attacks", and so the stacking is an interaction contrary to intent of one of the two elements.  Aka: cheese.

No, it's not OP.  That doesn't mean it's not cheese.

(BCL, on the other hand, IS overpowered, IMHO.  But it's not cheese, it's supposed to exactly as good as it is.  And if it's a fair swap for Healer's Lore on a pure cleric, wouldn't that mean it's a fair swap on a MC feat?  So not cheese.)

And again, I'm not expecting any of those elements to be addressed.  This month I think they looked at the most recent Dragon, and HotEC.  And so anything outside those two books wasn't gonna be looked at or touched.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I disagree on that. BCL is ridiculously strong, but it's an option that has to be that strong. It makes frontlining tolerable for a good number of builds that would otherwise be infeasible, and isn't very harmful to the game at all. I challenge anyone to make a build that exploits BCL and is overpowered, actually.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
It puts you at "Scale + Heavy Shield" AC, which is pure defender level, while allowing you to wield two-handed weapons.  Non-defender Melee AC is "Scale", with an optional shield if you're willing to gimp your damage.

It's not broken at all, of course.  If it just required you to wield a simple weapon for the extra +2 bonus, it would be fine: that would be about the normal amount of AC for a melee non-defender, with the normal tradeoff.  It's overpowered in that it increases the power level.

As for making a build that uses BCL and is overpowered, start with a build that's overpowered, and add BCL.  Easy.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

You knew what I meant there. A build that becomes overpowered because of BCL. I'm not concerned about it being overpowered relative to the current state of the game, because if you look at the overall game so many things are overpowered that the average game element ceases to have any meaning.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
I guess it depends on a given definition of "overpowered".  Which a lot of people, even people who spend a lot of time examining the rules and the state of the game, will disagree on.  I've run at tables with DM's who think Defenders are overpowered (God only knows what they think of Controllers...).

Actually, thinking about it, in recent memory I saw a DM eventually go postal about a build that used BCL, a hybrid Cleric/Swordmage.  I didn't think it was overpowered, but I did feel that a DM would have to use different strategies to challenge a character with insanely high AC at low levels without causing unecessary grief for the other characters.

Armisael makes the point that, while there's nothing wrong with BCL itself, looking at it in relation to other things in the game already, it does highlight a very large issue.  That there is an imbalance in classes and their sub-builds.  Nothing groundshaking there, but when one class gets a patch (high AC for a melee Leader build), and the others don't, it shows that the game is unhealthy.

So the Battle Cleric gets 19 AC, but what about the Ardent?  I mean, the whole class is melee-based, right?  It's become glaringly obvious that a lot of these issues will never be addressed. 

The problem isn't Battle Cleric's Lore.  It's the fact that there are a lot of builds that are more than happy to become Hybrid Clerics to be actually playable.*


*On the topic of Multiclassing for BCL.  I don't see trading Healer's Lore gained by a Multiclass Feat for it as being a "fair trade".  Healer's Lore, by itself, is useless without Cleric powers.  Battle Cleric's Lore, however, is immediately useful.  Just saying.            
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
The definition of overpowered is going one step beyond whatever rules abuse the speaker uses on their own characters.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
The definition of overpowered is going one step beyond whatever rules abuse the speaker uses on their own characters.

Rather accurate.

Arm: A PC that can't be hit on a 18 is overpowered.  Making that via BCL is pretty trivial.

In other news, UA combining with Armor of Faith: also on the overpowered side.  You semi-justify it in the case of avengers by saying "they have to solo monsters", and then you build a unity avenger (Sword of *) who always fights in formation.  To get to Zathris's point, I do in fact play PCs I believe to be overpowered.  

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I'm shocked no one has brought up the Firewind Blade here.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
The definition of overpowered is going one step beyond whatever rules abuse the speaker uses on their own characters.

Rather accurate.

Arm: A PC that can't be hit on a 18 is overpowered.  Making that via BCL is pretty trivial.

In other news, UA combining with Armor of Faith: also on the overpowered side.  You semi-justify it in the case of avengers by saying "they have to solo monsters", and then you build a unity avenger (Sword of *) who always fights in formation.  To get to Zathris's point, I do in fact play PCs I believe to be overpowered.  



The thing is that BCL is not only not needed for that, it's also not wanted. The quickest path to unhittability mandates taking things that go against BCL. See Defensive Advantage, Moon Armor, Elven Chain Shirts, Rhythm Blades...all of this goes against BCL and gets higher AC. As things are, BCL can't do enough damage as an overpowered feature to compensate for the loss of a decent method of AC gain for the classes that need it. It's an element that does far more good than harm in the long run, and because of that it needs to stay as it is.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).

The thing is that BCL is not only not needed for that, it's also not wanted. The quickest path to unhittability mandates taking things that go against BCL. See Defensive Advantage, Moon Armor, Elven Chain Shirts, Rhythm Blades...all of this goes against BCL and gets higher AC.




Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see how this is the case.  The Rhythm Blade specifically increases your shield bonus so that actually has synergy with BCL, Defensive Advantage has nothing keeping it from interacting with BCL as it is an untyped +2, the Moon Armor is chain only which puts it on par with scale. The only one I see any problem with is the chain shirt, as it only works with light armor or no armor (which rules out using it with Moon Armor).


Of course, I could being errata that made changes to all of these and made them less effective with each other.

the Moon Armor is chain only which puts it on par with scale.

BCL gives Scale prof, not chain prof nor any other armor profs.


"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

I'm shocked no one has brought up the Firewind Blade here.



Its in the third post on the first page, kilpatds mentioned it.

The thing is that BCL is not only not needed for that, it's also not wanted. The quickest path to unhittability mandates taking things that go against BCL. See Defensive Advantage, Moon Armor, Elven Chain Shirts, Rhythm Blades...all of this goes against BCL and gets higher AC.




Maybe I am missing something, but I don't see how this is the case.  The Rhythm Blade specifically increases your shield bonus so that actually has synergy with BCL, Defensive Advantage has nothing keeping it from interacting with BCL as it is an untyped +2, the Moon Armor is chain only which puts it on par with scale. The only one I see any problem with is the chain shirt, as it only works with light armor or no armor (which rules out using it with Moon Armor).


Of course, I could being errata that made changes to all of these and made them less effective with each other.




If you take a Rhythm Blade with BCL you're gimping yourself. Whereas if you combine it with everything else you're just playing smartly. Similarly, Defensive Advantage requires high DEX...and if you have high DEX you don't want BCL because light armor gives more AC. Lastly, the Moon Armor is obtained as light armor via Ringmail. So you combine everything and...get a ridiculously unhittable character, easier than with BCL + friends.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
...you realize BCL gives a +2 shield bonus that doesn't occupy a hand whether you wear scale or not, right?
They will never deal with the MBA issue, will they?
...you realize BCL gives a +2 shield bonus that doesn't occupy a hand whether you wear scale or not, right?



Needs a weapon held in two hands. Less practical than using two weapons to up defenses.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
...you realize BCL gives a +2 shield bonus that doesn't occupy a hand whether you wear scale or not, right?



Needs a weapon held in two hands. Less practical than using two weapons to up defenses.



Unless BCL has recieved errata of some sort that I'm unaware of since its creation, this is absolutely not true. It gives a +2 shield bonus to AC, period, full stop, no matter the situation.
...you realize BCL gives a +2 shield bonus that doesn't occupy a hand whether you wear scale or not, right?



Needs a weapon held in two hands. Less practical than using two weapons to up defenses.



Unless BCL has recieved errata of some sort that I'm unaware of since its creation, this is absolutely not true. It gives a +2 shield bonus to AC, period, full stop, no matter the situation.



D'oh, this was there pre-compiling but got taken out. Wizards!
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Er?  D400 is after they stopped doing compilations.  They just changed the articles without telling anyone.  Let me go download that again now.. (since my copy has the shield bonus, and my "overpowered" comments are assuming the shield bonus. Without the shield bonus, it's a trivial gain over scale proficiency)

Just looked at it again: "You gain a +2 shield bonus to AC, and you have proficiency with scale armor.  In addition [you grant small conditional attack bonuses]" 

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Would nerfing it to require wielding a weapon in 2hands be acceptable? Its a nice feature sure, but as others have said, most AC abuse comes from light armour, and its pretty much on par with Hafted Defence + scale proficinecy.
Er, I think it's overpowered.  I also think it's not enough overpowered to nerf in a home game, and I think it's not enough overpowered to be really worth worrying about right now for official errata either.

Errata and updates have a cost.  Each change is another cognative load, another document you have to fix.  Another change you have to keep in mind.   So in my mind, the threshhold is pretty high to be actually worth making an official change.

Right now, Cleric might be dominant for certain build classes... but that really in the metagame just means it's competing with Fighter a little closer.  and while the Ardent is, in fact, a sad panda, that's not a big enough issue to fix.  I've seen LFR tables where 5 randomly meeting adventurers all chose to pick up Battle Awareness, and yet I don't think that's worth nerfing.  Util I see that from BCL users, there's no nerf-worthy issue here.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Yeah, in a perfect world, nerfing it to 'requires heavy armor + two handed weapon' is a perfect fix. Small, unintrusive, simple. The issue is, of course, that the world isn't perfect and erratas take time and money. And until stuff like Lightning Fury is nerfed there's no reason to care about BCL.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).