## It feels less cooperative.

Something i liked alot about 4e was how cooperitive it felt.  It was a team game and you did things to boost/protect/help your allies as often, if not more often, then to boost/protect/help yourself.  Even the selfish striker knew he could only afford to take the extra damage because the defender took extra mark punishment.

I can't really give specific examples, but the playtest felt less like a team, and more like a group of individuals.  Everyone runs off and slaps their own kobold instead of positioning them for the wizard to blast.  No one try's to set the rogue up with flanking.  No one give up their own turn to grant a second wind to a downed ally.

IMO, It's a pretty big loss.

Edit: Here's an example.

Cleric M: Get behind ogre and set up advantage for fighter.
Ogre:     Attack Cleric M, doing damage but not killing
Fighter:  Knock Ogre Prone w/ Advantage
Cleric P: Attack Ogre w/ Advantage
Ogre:    "Ouch!!!"

It was just smart use of the initiative order and a single action used to give advantage. In this case, the benefits of the spent actions far outweighed the possibility of a single attack roll.

MATH TIME!!!

I'll give the cleric/fighter combo a 100% chance to prone, cause it's a good/fun idea.  But mostly to simplify the math.
(i.e. it would be less).

Damage with cooperation. [sblock 23.24625]
Rogue: .75 * (1d6+3+1d6) = 7.5
C P: 0.6975 * (1d8+2) = 4.53375  (melee attack with dex, ranged attacks don't have advantage)
Wizard: 0.7975 * (1d8+3) = 5.98125
CM: 0.6975 * (1d10+2) = 5.23125
23.24625
[/sblock]

Damage just without cooperation [sblock 28.35 ]
CM: .45 * (1d10+2) = 3.375
Fighter: .55 * (2d6+7) + .45 *3 = 9.05
Rogue: .5 *  (1d8+3) = 3.75
CP: .55 * (1d8+4) = 4.675
Wizard: .55 * (1d8+3) = 4.125
CM: .45 * (1d10+2) = 3.375
28.35
[/sblock]

So there ya go.  I don't know how to give better proof that "cooperation is lacking" then that.

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

yuwain
Joined Apr 2011
716 Posts
is that the games fault?

or have your players just not yet adapted to the new rules.

i know when i was testing we were constantly having "oh wait.... i can DO that" moments where we were realising the new synergies that were to be had.

i have one example where my group of players had the rogue scout ahead and lay a trip wire trap, then the team planed out their entire first round of combat, and really worked together to get the suprise round off, they slaughtered the goblins wholesale on the first turn.
Joined Jan 2012
4942 Posts
they slaughtered the goblins wholesale on the first turn.

You can do this anyway without lots of planning.  Goblins are mostly one-hit kill monsters in this module.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

yuwain
Joined Apr 2011
716 Posts
they slaughtered the goblins wholesale on the first turn.

You can do this anyway without lots of planning.  Goblins are mostly one-hit kill monsters in this module.

thats obviously not the point, please stay on topic.
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29691 Posts
is that the games fault?

or have your players just not yet adapted to the new rules.

The game.  We've been playing 4e for the past 2 or so years.  Teamwork and tactics is the norm.

Part of the problem is that things die in 1 hit (at least so far...), so there's no reason to do anything but kill then straight out.

The most cooperative thing we've done is "i'll wait here while you..."  (which apparently you did as well).

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

yuwain
Joined Apr 2011
716 Posts
i'm sorry, but i am going to have to dissagree.

there is a mindset that 4e created that teamwork has to be in the game mechanics, it's still there, it's just no longer forced on the players.

your figther has every opportunity to grapple to give everybody else advantage, or throw up a table for your wizard to hide behind.

your rogue has every opportunity to trip or disarm to give advantage, or find and lay traps

your wizard can grease up an area for your rogue to light with his torch

your cleric is nothing BUT teamwork

these are just a few examples, spend enough time witht he game and you will find hundreds of situations that allow for it.

also keep in mind that we are missing MOST spells and abilities that would allow for more teamwork.

4e forced teamwork by slingling buffs and slides around like it was candy, it was mechanical and cold. now you actually have to put your heads together and think of a plan

if anything i say this edition feels way more cooperative, but that was just the feeling at my table.

and no, i was not trying to insult you our your players, i'm sorry if it felt that way.
Seeker95
Joined Oct 2001
9898 Posts
is that the games fault?

Yes.

Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
• Three Basic Rules (p 11)
• Power Types and Usage (p 54)
• Skills (p178-179)
• Feats (p 192)
• Rest and Recovery (p 263)
• All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
yuwain
Joined Apr 2011
716 Posts
is that the games fault?

Yes.

explain

(oh look, i can quote and give one word responces too!.... oh dang)
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29691 Posts
iyour figther has every opportunity to grapple to give everybody else advantage, or throw up a table for your wizard to hide behind.

Better to kill it instead of grabing it.

your rogue has every opportunity to trip or disarm to give advantage, or find and lay traps

Or just kill it.  (traps arn't teamwork, their rogue attacks).

your wizard can grease up an area for your rogue to light with his torch

Or the wizard uses burning hands and kills them, while the rogue uses lantern oil to start a fire.  (which is what we did).

your cleric is nothing BUT teamwork

The defender theme definatly adds to teamwork, and the healer adds some (bandaids after combat arn't really "teamwork").  But that's 1.5 out of 5.

.5 out of 5 for us, because the moradin cleric never used the defender ability.  He simply didn't need too.

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

yuwain
Joined Apr 2011
716 Posts
@Mellored

for level 1 low HP monsters, sure. are you going to play level 1 forever? your coutner argument falls apart when you put it up against the 88 HP ogre "just kill it instead" doesn't work, theres a bunch of other monsters in the campaign that are beefy enough to warrent teamwork.

-edit-

and level 1 4e had the same problem "minions everywhere? just kill them" and "oh, that ones not a minion, oh well, just kill it"
ShinQuickMan
Joined Mar 2004
2036 Posts
Absolutely false on the last comment, Yuwain. In fact, teamwork is even more necessary at low-level 4E on the basis of survival.
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29691 Posts
for level 1 low HP monsters, sure. are you going to play level 1 forever? your coutner argument falls apart when you put it up against the 88 HP ogre "just kill it instead" doesn't work, theres a bunch of other monsters in the campaign that are beefy enough to warrent teamwork.

Possibly, we havn't gotten that far.  Though i still feel teamwork is missing (or at least has been vastly reduced).  Nearly every power in 4e did something teamwork-worthy.  Weather it was extra movement, zones or burst that took advantage of that movement, or simply giving a +1 to an adjacent ally, teamwork was prolific.

and level 1 4e had the same problem "minions everywhere? just kill them" and "oh, that ones not a minion, oh well, just kill it"

1) I havn't seen many "all minion" battles in 4e, even at low levels.

2) You'd often kill it, AND give a bonus to an ally.

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

yuwain
Joined Apr 2011
716 Posts
@shinquickman
i am currently DM-ing my hobby shops "realm of the spider queen" wednesday encounters (sure, it's 4e-essentials) but teamwork isn't really required.

@Mellored

right, and my point is that bonuses =/= teamwork. it's forced, it's cold, it's mechanical, and it doesn't bring the team together at the table. why do you need bonuses to learn to work together in a game? not having those bonuses is what seperates the real "teamwork" from the "and ally shift x squares and does an irish jig" bonuses that 4th gave.
Alpha_dork
Joined Sep 2007
252 Posts

for level 1 low HP monsters, sure. are you going to play level 1 forever? your coutner argument falls apart when you put it up against the 88 HP ogre "just kill it instead" doesn't work, theres a bunch of other monsters in the campaign that are beefy enough to warrent teamwork.

I guess that the wizard spamming Ray of Frost at the ogre while the rest of the party shoots it to death with ranged weapons is teamwork, not very exciting mind you, but they did fight it as a team.

and level 1 4e had the same problem "minions everywhere? just kill them" and "oh, that ones not a minion, oh well, just kill it"

My first experiences with 4E were the opposite, yes minions die in a hurry but I still remember starting my regular group against some kobolds and the surprise on some of their faces when they hit one for solid damage and it was still alive.

As to the lack of team work it's the fault of both the game system and the players. In my experience as a DM (25+ years) most players want their characters to have some "air time", be it in combat or during RP moments. My group has no trouble helping out another character to set up a great RP or combat moment, but spending your characters actions doing nothing but helping someone else gets old fast.

It was one the things my players that favour clerics loved about 4E - the chance to heal someone and still attack. The option was present on the Dwarven cleric in the playtest materials, but sorely lacking on the human. On a side note, they also loved access to non-divine healing. While the comments around the table of "Who gets to play the cleric" made me feel nostalgic; they were also a sign that this needs to be addressed as D&D Next grows.

4E also offered a high level of character customization, which often helped inspire a players vision of their character and led to more creative play on the table top.

For the record, while I have played and enjoyed 4E, there were plenty f things wrong with it. Number one for me was the scaling "to hit" and defense math that relied far too heavily on magic items. The AW-E-D mechanic also became a bit too repetitive across the classes.
yuwain
Joined Apr 2011
716 Posts
it's odd, during our playtest the question was "can I play the cleric"
DaBeerds
Joined May 2012
923 Posts
play 1st level characters and go to the undead area of the Caves of Chaos (3rd level content) and you will see LOTS of teamwork and strategy.

My group did exactly this.  We had a fighter, a cleric, a rogue, a 1st level wizard and a 2nd level wizard.  And while it took a LOT out of us - every encounter someone (or multiple someones) went down - we defeated all our enemies through creative movement, knowing what spells did what, the ability to improvise, and some lucky dice rolling.

##### Are you really "entitled to your opinion"?
RedSiegfried wrote:
The cool thing is, you don't even NEED a reason to say yes.  Just stop looking for a reason to say no.
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29691 Posts
@Yuwain, we're just going to have to disagree.

IMO, mechanics DID bring the team together.  If there's no benifit (or worse, a detriment), then there's no reason to do it.  I'm not going to have my pixie warlord fart in the oger's nose unless it actually helps my team.

(I look forward to seeing icy ray in action).

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

halvgrim
Joined Jan 2012
484 Posts
I Think that people in this forum complained that 4ed did not allow them to play a party with 4 strikers. As far as I understand then problem was that 4ed was so "cooperative" that you need a character with each role in the party to succeed.

I think that WOTC responded to this by making the game less cooperative. (But I may be wrong here)
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29691 Posts
I Think that people in this forum complained that 4ed did not allow them to play a party with 4 strikers. As far as I understand then problem was that 4ed was so "cooperative" that you need a character with each role in the party to succeed.

We've played all striker parties.  There was still more teamwork then i see now.  (though not much more).

You also don't need ever role.  Not even close.

I think that WOTC responded to this by making the game less cooperative. (But I may be wrong here)

Probably.  But i prefer the teamwork.

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Serpine
Joined Jul 2008
338 Posts
I can't really give specific examples, but the playtest felt less like a team, and more like a group of individuals.  Everyone runs off and slaps their own kobold instead of positioning them for the wizard to blast.

I had pretty much the opposite impression / experience. In many of the the lower level 4e games I've been in each person seemed to trying to maximize their 3 actions to achieve personal gains, frequently at the expense of the other players (pushing enemies out of others reach, killing single enemies in a bunch rather then stragglers so that area effects were less effective, etc): This wasn't every game, but certainly a lot.

In the 5e game however the PCs herded enemies into chokespots near the fighter and clericadin, distracted enemies so the rogue could get into position behind them, relay carried a potion to a downed wizard, threw oil down to maximize the burning hands attack the wizard was about to drop, cast light on crossbow bolts in hope of blinding the enemy, and carefully planned / timed an ambush in an attempt to spread out the attacks and take out all the foes simultanously.  I haven't actually observed this level of team cooperation in some time.

Maybe it was just a fluke or the people involved, but I don't think the system discourages teamwork. Its more that the teamwork required seems less mechanical: Its less about positioning and status effect combos and more about... asymmetric warfare I guess.
yuwain
Joined Apr 2011
716 Posts
4th teamwork also bothered me on a conceptual level.

why do i need the warlord to tell me to attack? if i COULD have attacked twice in a turn, why didn't i always do that? why do i need my teamate to tell me to do it?

why do i need my teamate to tell me to shift 3 squares, the effect wasn't magicle, so could i have shifted those squares or not? why do i need somebody to tell me to do it?

it was so forced, and half of it didn't make any sense.
zombie_babies
Joined Dec 2007
33661 Posts
Meh, I found the same amount of cooperation as I did in 4e, 3.5 and 2e.  Granted I've been playing with the same guys for a long time, but there's nothing in the game that I see that encourages people to ignore teamwork.

Even if it were true, I can't see how it would be a game issue.  Since some found this problem and others didn't, I really can't believe it is.  Players decide whether or not to function as a team.  That's ... well, that's all there is to it.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29691 Posts
why do i need the warlord to tell me to attack? if i COULD have attacked twice in a turn, why didn't i always do that? why do i need my teamate to tell me to do it?

My pixie warlord gave you the opening by farting in it's nose, pulling it's hair, wispering naughty idea's in it's ear...

Or perhaps your a more default warlord who simply notifies the fighter of an opening "it's an overhanded swing, juke left then slice right".

Unless you think people can only swing a sword once every 6 seconds and politely wait for the monster to swing back...  which makes alot less sense.

why do i need my teamate to tell me to shift 3 squares, the effect wasn't magicle, so could i have shifted those squares or not? why do i need somebody to tell me to do it?

Same kind of stuff.  They are creating, or finding openings to do it.

Also, i'm talking about "magic" effects as well.  (not that i see much difference).

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Alpha_dork
Joined Sep 2007
252 Posts
4th teamwork also bothered me on a conceptual level..

Fair enough, but it can be abstracted t work.

why do i need the warlord to tell me to attack? if i COULD have attacked twice in a turn, why didn't i always do that? why do i need my teamate to tell me to do it?

Lets make the assumption that a melee is not simply "make an attack roll, hit or miss" but can be abstracted as a swirling battle with various feints, parries, etc. Was the Warlord telling you to attack, or did he notice an opening in a foes defenses you could exploit and quietly met your eyes so you'd see it too. Maybe this is why they added the mechanic of adding his Int modifier to your damage roll, because your character benefited from the warlords battle acumen.

why do i need my teamate to tell me to shift 3 squares, the effect wasn't magicle, so could i have shifted those squares or not? why do i need somebody to tell me to do it?.

Again, with the same assumption about melee above, did whoever granted the shift spot a point in the battle where you character could re-position themselves safe from an enemies reprisal (no OA on a shift)

it was so forced, and half of it didn't make any sense.

No, it felt forced to you. Many others enjoyed it and could abstract what was happening on the table top. Just like hit points are an abstraction of a characters durabilty - they're just more readily accepted because they've part of the game forever.

yuwain
Joined Apr 2011
716 Posts
in 3.5, a full round was 6 seconds, and you could perfome a full round attack if you didn't move giving you multiple attacks that round. low levels characters couldn't do a full round action because they weren't skilled enough to find multiple openings in a single round.

so then why can't i do THAT in 4th? instead of the warlord telling me how to attack? i'm not trying to edition war (i actually prefere 4th overall) i just think there is a disconnect between what i am allowed to do and what i can do
Alpha_dork
Joined Sep 2007
252 Posts
That's simply a mechanical difference between the rules from different editions of the game. Not unlike when AC started to go up in 3rd (rather than down) or in 2nd when the introduced the bard as a stand alone class and moved illusionists from a class of their own into a spell school subsection of the wizard.

4E removed multiple basic attacks for everyone but the ranger and replaced them with encounter and daily powers that let a character make more than one attack. Was it perfect? Nope. Did it work, yes.

Oh and for the record, I don't think you're trying to start an edition war. I've been playing D&D for a very long time and there have been good and bad things in every single edition. For some reason 4E seemed to receive the most hate (maybe I'm reading that wrong) so when people seem to be overly critical of it I will defend it. WotC did do some good things with it - for my group it was plenty of character option without resorting to the amount of multi-classing that happened in 3rd (they really didn't like those MC rules and prefer to play one class characters) and non-divine healing classes (the warlord was a huge hit with my group).
Joined Aug 2008
402 Posts
I Think that people in this forum complained that 4ed did not allow them to play a party with 4 strikers. As far as I understand then problem was that 4ed was so "cooperative" that you need a character with each role in the party to succeed.

I think that WOTC responded to this by making the game less cooperative. (But I may be wrong here)

The idea that you have to have all roles is completely false.

Any combination of roles can work, as can two or three person parties, etc. Some classes aren't what you want if you're missing something to shore up their weaknesses, though. I wouldn't want to see an all controllers and one warlord, for instance. Make the leader a bard, though...

All roles do, is give you a shorthand to use in determining what class to play, if you don't start the concept with a class in mind. Each role has a style, so you learn those styles, and go "I want to play a lurking kidney stabber", and you look through the strikers and find the sneaky one that fits your other concept elements the best.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
autolycus
Joined Oct 2010
550 Posts
There are sources for teamwork in 4th edition and in D&DN, but they come from different sources. 4th has many of the teamwork-y stuff "baked in". One character can give extra movement, or a bonus, or an extra attack by utilizing a power (which usually had its own attack at the same time).

Older editions, and D&DN, encouraged more of an open-ended teamwork approach. You know what powers the other characters have (and under what conditions) and you try to make them happen. A fighter can knock an enemy prone or pull a carpet from under an enemy so the rogue can get sneak attack advantage. A wizard can use grease to block off a corridor or make an ogre drop his club. These efforts are not as explicitly spelled out for players as the powers in 4e, but they are teamwork nonetheless.

I can see where someone could feel that having their character shifted around the map on someone else's turn feels "forced". It's less organic than acting on your own.

Teamwork comes less easily for some people playing a more 'old school' type game precicely because it requires the players to discover how to help each other. They have to assess any given tactical situation on-the-fly and come up with ways to tilt the battle in their favor. The effort required needs cooperation betweeen DM and Player - and not everyone trusts others enough to do this.
Hurin88
Joined Jun 2009
1120 Posts
There are sources for teamwork in 4th edition and in D&DN, but they come from different sources. 4th has many of the teamwork-y stuff "baked in". One character can give extra movement, or a bonus, or an extra attack by utilizing a power (which usually had its own attack at the same time).

Older editions, and D&DN, encouraged more of an open-ended teamwork approach. You know what powers the other characters have (and under what conditions) and you try to make them happen. A fighter can knock an enemy prone or pull a carpet from under an enemy so the rogue can get sneak attack advantage. A wizard can use grease to block off a corridor or make an ogre drop his club. These efforts are not as explicitly spelled out for players as the powers in 4e, but they are teamwork nonetheless.

I can see where someone could feel that having their character shifted around the map on someone else's turn feels "forced". It's less organic than acting on your own.

Teamwork comes less easily for some people playing a more 'old school' type game precicely because it requires the players to discover how to help each other. They have to assess any given tactical situation on-the-fly and come up with ways to tilt the battle in their favor. The effort required needs cooperation betweeen DM and Player - and not everyone trusts others enough to do this.

That's all fine, but what exactly you can accomplish will depend heavily on your DM's whims. A fighter can try to knock and enemy prone, but where it might be a good tactic with one DM (who says, "Ok, make an attack against the enemy's DEX as a DC, and if you hit you knock it prone."), it might not be a good tactic with another (who says, "Make opposed DEX checks."). In the latter case, you have much less of a chance of success, and it will be statistically far better just to swing at the enemy with the sword.

The point being: without established rules, the characters don't really know what they can do, because what they can do changes according to the DM... and might even change, week-to-week, with the SAME DM. So whereas cooperation might work with one DM, it might fail miserably with another.

At least in 4e, there was some cooperation (even if you found it forced, cold and contrived). In the new system, whether cooperation will be viable or not will depend, it seems, entirely on the DM.

"What is the sort of thing that I do care about is a failure to seriously evaluate what does and doesn't work in favor of a sort of cargo cult posturing. And yes, it's painful to read design notes columns that are all just "So D&D 3.5 sort of had these problems. We know people have some issues with them. What a puzzler! But we think we have a solution in the form of X", where X is sort of a half-baked version of an idea that 4e executed perfectly well and which worked fine." - Lesp

Nelyo
Joined Jul 2003
970 Posts
In the new system, whether cooperation will be viable or not will depend, it seems, entirely on the DM.

This is the trick, as far as I've seen. A lot of the things people bring up that you can do in the playtest for teamwork, such as herding monsters, distracting them, or knocking them prone, all rely on the DM agreeing that 1) you can do that thing and it will provide some kind of benefit, and 2) setting a DC for you to do that thing that makes it worth not attacking for a turn. Especially if you're not a spellcaster. When my group fought the owlbear as it wandered into the cave immediately after we defeated the grey oozes, we knew we were screwed because there was no way we could deny it its full attack routine or encourage it to attack the party member who could actually take the hits at that point.
medhianox
Joined May 2012
197 Posts
And why is forced co-operation important exactly?

Is this another one of those: "For people who play with strangers." thing?
mellored
Joined Jul 2008
29691 Posts
And why is forced co-operation important exactly?

Is this another one of those: "For people who play with strangers." thing?

4e doesn't force anything.

5e shouldn't either.

But still felt lacking in the playtest.

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Joined Aug 2008
402 Posts
And why is forced co-operation important exactly?

Is this another one of those: "For people who play with strangers." thing?

4e doesn't force anything.

5e shouldn't either.

But still felt lacking in the playtest.

+1
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
Seeker95
Joined Oct 2001
9898 Posts
And why is forced co-operation important exactly?

It's not a matter of forced cooperation. It's a matter of shared knowledge of the rules of interaction.

I want to know the strategy rules. Selfishly and cooperatively. The playtest leaves so much to the whim of the DM that I have no idea what I can and cannot do until I ask him. I have never enjoyed playing games with someone else who makes the rules up as they go along, And I don't think I would like that type of game now, even if it is called D&D. (I didn't like it in the playtest. And I like my DM.)
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
• Three Basic Rules (p 11)
• Power Types and Usage (p 54)
• Skills (p178-179)
• Feats (p 192)
• Rest and Recovery (p 263)
• All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
greyghost81
Joined May 2012
36 Posts
I've found that cooperation tends to be more a matter of the personalities and actions of the player.  4th ed was set up in a way where that cooperation was often a natural extention of the character classes.  I don't think it's "wrong" to try and set the sense of cooperation within the mechanics of the game because my admitedly anecdotal experience is that the point of the game is to have fun, and people seem to have more fun when they're working together to overcome the obstacles in the game.
Joined Aug 2008
402 Posts
And why is forced co-operation important exactly?

It's not a matter of forced cooperation. It's a matter of shared knowledge of the rules of interaction.

I want to know the strategy rules. Selfishly and cooperatively. The playtest leaves so much to the whim of the DM that I have no idea what I can and cannot do until I ask him. I have never enjoyed playing games with someone else who makes the rules up as they go along, And I don't think I would like that type of game now, even if it is called D&D. (I didn't like it in the playtest. And I like my DM.)

Exactly.

I don't like it as a player or DM in this playtest so far.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
doomjester
Joined Mar 2009
86 Posts
Just throwing in my 2c.

Optimal play.

In 4e, optimal play involved working with your team members to set up flanks, work with each others abilities, etc. The rules incentivised this play style with bonuses, etc.

In 5e, optimal play is debatable.  Is it better for me, as the fighter for example, to distract the cultist so that the rogue can get advantage on his hiding/sneaking check or should I just hack him down?  I think my optimal play is probably to just hack him.

Not everyone cares about playing optimally.

Nobody says you have to play optimally.

Optimal play still exists and, as far as what the rules favour, I'd like Next to favour teamwork.

yuwain
Joined Apr 2011
716 Posts
And why is forced co-operation important exactly?

It's not a matter of forced cooperation. It's a matter of shared knowledge of the rules of interaction.

I want to know the strategy rules. Selfishly and cooperatively. The playtest leaves so much to the whim of the DM that I have no idea what I can and cannot do until I ask him. I have never enjoyed playing games with someone else who makes the rules up as they go along, And I don't think I would like that type of game now, even if it is called D&D. (I didn't like it in the playtest. And I like my DM.)

you mean a Work in progress rule set for the first three levels of the MOST BASIC CORE RULES of a modular rules system is light on rules?

no way!
Joined Aug 2008
402 Posts
And why is forced co-operation important exactly?

It's not a matter of forced cooperation. It's a matter of shared knowledge of the rules of interaction.

I want to know the strategy rules. Selfishly and cooperatively. The playtest leaves so much to the whim of the DM that I have no idea what I can and cannot do until I ask him. I have never enjoyed playing games with someone else who makes the rules up as they go along, And I don't think I would like that type of game now, even if it is called D&D. (I didn't like it in the playtest. And I like my DM.)

you mean a Work in progress rule set for the first three levels of the MOST BASIC CORE RULES of a modular rules system is light on rules?

no way!

It's one of the design goals, so it's a perfectly valid thing to speak out against, this early on. In fact, this is the best time to speak out against design goals, since it will just get harder and harder to change them as time goes on.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
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blather
Joined Jul 2011
430 Posts
is that the games fault?

Yes.

NO.
MY DM COMMITMENT To insure that those who participate in any game that I adjudicate are having fun, staying engaged, maintaining focus, contributing to the story and becoming legendary. "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gary Gygax Thanks for that Gary, so now stop playing RAW games. Member of the Progressive Front of Grognardia Suicide Squad
blather
Joined Jul 2011
430 Posts
And why is forced co-operation important exactly?

It's not a matter of forced cooperation. It's a matter of shared knowledge of the rules of interaction.

I want to know the strategy rules. Selfishly and cooperatively. The playtest leaves so much to the whim of the DM that I have no idea what I can and cannot do until I ask him. I have never enjoyed playing games with someone else who makes the rules up as they go along, And I don't think I would like that type of game now, even if it is called D&D. (I didn't like it in the playtest. And I like my DM.)

This is true. As an old-schooler there was the problem then and it is assumed to be coming back now. with the DM empowerment and the power of the Fiat.

That is the "Mother may I........"

I would hope that in the spirit of emergent play that more DMs will stick with the more group friendly method of.

"Yes, and....." or "Yes, but...."

I encourage any player to TELL me what they are going to do. It is usually follwed by one of the mentioned statements. A good DM is firm but fair. Unfrotunately, well there are alot of so-so DMs, some good DMs and few great ones.

Sure, the party need to co-operate on an adventure and I agree that the rules should encourage it but, not dictate it.

More fleshed out options for "helping" or "assiting" other players needs to happen. this would go a long way to what this thread is talking about.  You know what that is a good idea for a thread.

Thanks for bringing this topic up.
MY DM COMMITMENT To insure that those who participate in any game that I adjudicate are having fun, staying engaged, maintaining focus, contributing to the story and becoming legendary. "The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gary Gygax Thanks for that Gary, so now stop playing RAW games. Member of the Progressive Front of Grognardia Suicide Squad