Dwarf vs Elf

So, the dwarf gets dwarf weapons, the elf does not get proficiency in elven weapons. I was fully expecting the elf to be proficient with shortbows at least. Sure, he can now fie magic missiles each round but still. There are situations where might not want or can't cast, and if the dwarf gets his weapons, why not the elf?

The fun of an elf wizard, to me, was mostly that he was also good in using a bow and disappearing into the trees. The pregen char is incomplete to me. I don't think I'm the only one to find that odd.

I hope this gets changed in later versions.
How do you know that?
Since the dwarven weapn features are not listed on the charactewr sheets, there is no way of knowing, if elves have similar ones or not.

IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_iswhite.jpg)

So, the dwarf gets dwarf weapons, the elf does not get proficiency in elven weapons.



I wouldn't worry about that. I'm sure they will be giving favored weapons to every race.

___________________________________________________________________

Check out the Owlbear blog! http://ragingowlbear.blogspot.com/

I think that you're asking the wrong question. It's not that Elves should be getting something with bows. It's that Dwarves shouldn't be getting anything with hammers. Racial weapon preferences are a terrible mechanic, and they should all go away.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Come to think of it, Crimso_Concerto has a point. After all, a lot of elves and dwarves grow up in urban settings (depending on campaign of course).

But I like my wood elves with bows at least Laughing
And that is where a racial background could work for upping damage dice instead part of the race. Pick a Dwarven Militia background, or Elven Scout, or Halfling Rockskipping Champion, etc.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Howdy folks,

I've moved this thread to a forum where it is more on-topic.

Thanks.   

All around helpful simian

So, the dwarf gets dwarf weapons, the elf does not get proficiency in elven weapons. I was fully expecting the elf to be proficient with shortbows at least. Sure, he can now fie magic missiles each round but still. There are situations where might not want or can't cast, and if the dwarf gets his weapons, why not the elf?

The fun of an elf wizard, to me, was mostly that he was also good in using a bow and disappearing into the trees. The pregen char is incomplete to me. I don't think I'm the only one to find that odd.

I hope this gets changed in later versions.



It seems like this “High Elf” is like the Eladrin, with +1 Int and more scholarly.

Probably the “Wood Elf” will get +1 Dex, plus the bow and sword proficiencies. (I hope its a longbow and a finesse sword.)

It seems like backgrounds are good way to handle this stuff tho, for characters that grow up in other cultures.
High Elf being like Eladrin makes me thing they will get bonuses with Longswords and can cast spells with them (although implements don't seem to be in this edition ATM). I'm good with that.

Wood elves get bows and scimitars (or some other finesse blade).

Wild elves get spears.
High Elf being like Eladrin makes me thing they will get bonuses with Longswords and can cast spells with them (although implements don't seem to be in this edition ATM). I'm good with that.

Wood elves get bows and scimitars (or some other finesse blade).

Wild elves get spears.



High Elf (Int) - implements (wand, orb, staff, rod, book, etc.)
Wood Elf (Dex) - bows (probably longbow, since shortbow is more for horseback archery), whats a woodsy blade? Maybe just a hunting knife?
Wild Elf - spear definitely (Wis Druid? Str Hunter?)
Drow - crossbow (Cha Paladin/Sorcerer?)
High Elf being like Eladrin makes me thing they will get bonuses with Longswords and can cast spells with them (although implements don't seem to be in this edition ATM). I'm good with that.

Wood elves get bows and scimitars (or some other finesse blade).

Wild elves get spears.



High Elf (Int) - implements (wand, orb, staff, rod, book, etc.)
Wood Elf (Dex) - bows (probably longbow, since shortbow is more for horseback archery), whats a woodsy blade? Maybe just a hunting knife?
Wild Elf - spear definitely (Wis Druid? Str Hunter?)
Drow - crossbow (Cha Paladin/Sorcerer?)



At the moment there are no implements, so I think Longsword would be better idea and does fit some of the D&D history of the race. A shortsword is probably close enough to a hunting knife in use and weight (though at the moment there doesn't seem to be a reason to have rapier, scimitar, and short sword in the rules). If implements do make it, then I would want most arcane magic users to have those or most of those implement proficiencies anyway. Divine magic users get holy symbols of course, and certain domains should get their special weapon if any (hammers for clerics of Moradin, etc).
High Elf being like Eladrin makes me thing they will get bonuses with Longswords and can cast spells with them (although implements don't seem to be in this edition ATM). I'm good with that.

Wood elves get bows and scimitars (or some other finesse blade).

Wild elves get spears.



High Elf (Int) - implements (wand, orb, staff, rod, book, etc.)
Wood Elf (Dex) - bows (probably longbow, since shortbow is more for horseback archery), whats a woodsy blade? Maybe just a hunting knife?
Wild Elf - spear definitely (Wis Druid? Str Hunter?)
Drow - crossbow (Cha Paladin/Sorcerer?)



At the moment there are no implements, so I think Longsword would be better idea and does fit some of the D&D history of the race. A shortsword is probably close enough to a hunting knife in use and weight (though at the moment there doesn't seem to be a reason to have rapier, scimitar, and short sword in the rules). If implements do make it, then I would want most arcane magic users to have those or most of those implement proficiencies anyway. Divine magic users get holy symbols of course, and certain domains should get their special weapon if any (hammers for clerics of Moradin, etc).



Heh, I actually hate the longsword for the Eladrin, no weapon can be more ridiculous for a Wizard.

Id rather see the Wood Elf get the sword.

By the way, a “longsword” is a huge hand-and-half sword. Its definitely a Strength weapon and it seems inappropriate for any Elf.
To juggle another topic in here ...


4e splits the “elf” into truly separate races. Maybe like Eladrin and Drow, the “Elf” should get a unique name too, so they can all be called “Elf”. Genus Elf, species Drow, and so on.

If every Elf race gets a unique name what should they be?

• Dark Elf: Drow
• High Elf: Eladrin?
• Wood Elf: ?
• Wild Elf: ?
I think I would rather see elves as one single specific race.Actually this goes for all races that are the same stock but differ do to culture,enviroment etc.Make one race called elves and leave it at that.Then let backgrounds make them a high,drow,wood or wild elf.Then themes can further lend to where the elf originated from.High elves could have high wizard,eagle rider,arcane warrior etc.Drows could have shadow priest/priestess,spider riders,Fallen shadow warrior etc.Wild elf could have spirit shaman,wolf rider,tribal warrior etc.Wood elf could have woodshaper druid,Hart rider,deepwoods sniper etc.Also could just let some of those themes mix and match between apropriate elven types.  
I think I would rather see elves as one single specific race.Actually this goes for all races that are the same stock but differ do to culture,enviroment etc.Make one race called elves and leave it at that.Then let backgrounds make them a high,drow,wood or wild elf.Then themes can further lend to where the elf originated from.High elves could have high wizard,eagle rider,arcane warrior etc.Drows could have shadow priest/priestess,spider riders,Fallen shadow warrior etc.Wild elf could have spirit shaman,wolf rider,tribal warrior etc.Wood elf could have woodshaper druid,Hart rider,deepwoods sniper etc.Also could just let some of those themes mix and match between apropriate elven types.  



I can live with that. The backgrounds and themes evoke the flavor well.

At the same time, it seems they will have different ability bonuses, apparently depending on subrace. And theres always the question of if Elf, why not Human subraces?
Just as in 2nd Edition, subraces are better for a module than for core.  If someone wants the flavor of hill dwarves and wood elves, they can add that into their game, but the default should simply be elves and dwarves with no complication.

And I lend my voice to the crowd that dislikes favored weapons.  It's just another way to push races into niche roles and subvert player creativity.  If I want a dwarf that uses a longsword, I shouldn't be penalized for that.
I'm just gonna chime in here and say I really like the idea of a single base race package that's fairly lightweight and limited to the physiological properties of that race as a whole and treating cultural identities as backgrounds or themes. This allows for two things. As mentioned it means that people won't feel locked in to certain choices and can play their dwarf with a longsword without feeling like they're missing out. Also from an RP standpoint and far more importantly to me it allows for you to separate the cultural identifty of the race into a separate package which can then be swapped. You could play a halfling raised in an elven society or a human who grew up with dwarves. This becomes especilally pertinent to half elves and half orcs who don't have societies of their own.
I'm just gonna chime in here and say I really like the idea of a single base race package that's fairly lightweight and limited to the physiological properties of that race as a whole and treating cultural identities as backgrounds or themes. This allows for two things.

I fully agree. Race should only cover physical aspects, culture based weapon training and similar aspects should be a part of background or theme.

I always considered the drow warped elves of the other subgroups so they are something special. Generally, I want elves just be elves. I dislike Eladrin for any sort of elf, they are celestials to me Laughing

As for drow weapons, I always envision them with whips for some reason.

It would make so much sense if there were different backgrounds for racial extras depending on where they are from. I am just not used to that concept yet.

I have to chuckle at a dwarf with a longsword though. He could plough the ground while walking around with it. Wink
I always considered the drow warped elves of the other subgroups so they are something special. Generally, I want elves just be elves. I dislike Eladrin for any sort of elf, they are celestials to me

As for drow weapons, I always envision them with whips for some reason.

It would make so much sense if there were different backgrounds for racial extras depending on where they are from. I am just not used to that concept yet.

I have to chuckle at a dwarf with a longsword though. He could plough the ground while walking around with it.


That is probably a good classification for Eladrin.  Elves just don't teleport.  Now a Celestial on the other hand... well who knows what those glowy buggers are gonna do.

Edition wars kill players,Dungeons and Dragons needs every player it can get.

High Elf being like Eladrin makes me thing they will get bonuses with Longswords and can cast spells with them (although implements don't seem to be in this edition ATM). I'm good with that.

Wood elves get bows and scimitars (or some other finesse blade).

Wild elves get spears.



High Elf (Int) - implements (wand, orb, staff, rod, book, etc.)
Wood Elf (Dex) - bows (probably longbow, since shortbow is more for horseback archery), whats a woodsy blade? Maybe just a hunting knife?
Wild Elf - spear definitely (Wis Druid? Str Hunter?)
Drow - crossbow (Cha Paladin/Sorcerer?)



Was Wild Elf  announced or hinted at somewhere, I'm honestly curious because their slot seems to be filled pretty good by Wood Elves.

While I'm ok with giving another name to Wood Elves so we can have Elf as a mechanical term describing all the elf races although I'll be damned if I can come up with another I'm against using backgrounds to create Eladrin, Drow for one simple reason I'd like to play a Drow and still have a background which indicates I'm a noble or a lone hunter or .... essentialy I see it as thus either they put a huge number of Drow [X] backgrounds or they put out just a few iconic Drow backgrounds and if Drow Noble isn't on the list tough or my favorite approach put the Drow stuff into the race and leave the backgrounds generic enough to be taken by race.


I ENTIRELY DISAGGREE with backgrounds being racial.

I want backgrounds to be things like what they are in the playtest: occupations and ways of life about where you came from before you were who you are now. Some backgrounds might be racial themed, but I prefer to have the sub-races as they are now. They shouldn't be entirely seperate races, but instead it would be like this:

Pick your Race
Race tells you stats and any features all members of your race get regardless of culture (human looks this way ATM, with no culture)
Pick your culture (if any available)
Your culture tells you some cool features that only your culture gets

I don't think there should be a base culture except for any race they decide does not have multiple cultures, though there can be base racial features (I disagree with this on human, but it is how it look ATM). For instance, it looks like the only cultural changes the Hill Dwarf has from the Mountain Dwarf is what sort of weapon they increase damage die on (this is speculation since neither of them carry the other type of weapon). So, base Dwarf gets Dwarven Resilience, Low-Light Vision, Speed, and Stonecunning. Hill Dwarf increases axe damage die, Mountain Dwarf increases hammer damage die.


Heh, I actually hate the longsword for the Eladrin, no weapon can be more ridiculous for a Wizard.

By the way, a “longsword” is a huge hand-and-half sword. Its definitely a Strength weapon and it seems inappropriate for any Elf.



The hand-and-half sword is covered by the bastard sword in this edition. The longsword here would be shorter than a bastard sword, but heavy enough that you must wield it in your strong hand.

But you know why Eladrin get to use it even though they are not typically strong? Magic. Or gravity. We decided last night that a lower gravitational pull explains a lot of D&D.
I don't think there should be a base culture except for any race they decide does not have multiple cultures...

I don't think that's a decision that they could ever reasonably make. Even if they do decide that a member of Race X is always of the same culture across campaign settings, even in settings as different as Eberron and Dark Sun, I might still decide that their culture is different in a homebrew campaign setting, and so the race's mechanics should allow me to feel free to do that.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I don't think there should be a base culture except for any race they decide does not have multiple cultures...

I don't think that's a decision that they could ever reasonably make. Even if they do decide that a member of Race X is always of the same culture across campaign settings, even in settings as different as Eberron and Dark Sun, I might still decide that their culture is different in a homebrew campaign setting, and so the race's mechanics should allow me to feel free to do that.



I agree.

Yeah, so even if there's only one 'known' culture, still have it as a seperate thing you 'pick,' even though in the base game it's always the one you pick.

Race tells you stats and any features all members of your race get regardless of culture (human looks this way ATM, with no culture)
Pick your culture (if any available)
Your culture tells you some cool features that only your culture gets



Well for things like low light vision etc, this is definitely true, as that's some genetic thing. But proficiencies... maybe not themes but racial packages.


Race tells you stats and any features all members of your race get regardless of culture (human looks this way ATM, with no culture)
Pick your culture (if any available)
Your culture tells you some cool features that only your culture gets



Well for things like low light vision etc, this is definitely true, as that's some genetic thing. But proficiencies... maybe not themes but racial packages.




Exactly what I'm suggesting. Stats, senses, racial language, probably anything that's typical to your race like dwarves not being slowed by heavy armor, those are in your race definition.
Your culture defines common weapons and armors and benefits with them, additional languages, things of this nature.

• Pick your Race
• Race tells you stats and any features all members of your race get regardless of culture (human looks this way ATM, with no culture)
• Pick your culture (if any available)
• Your culture tells you some cool features that only your culture gets

The problem - or rather the awkardness - with this list is the choice of ability bonuses. For example, it seems, the Mountain Dwarf adds a Strength Score +1, while the Hill Dwarf adds a Constitution Score +1.

As such, the “Dwarf race” gets a choice of either Str or Con, but this choice - at least in some sense - determines the subrace. By extension, the subrace already comes with a default culture (or default choice of typical cultures). In other words, being a Strong Hill Dwarf, implies Mountain Dwarf parentage, despite growing up in a Hill Dwarf culture. Cultural implications entwine with the ability mechanics.

Its necessary to clarify how the choice of ability relates to subrace.



I want backgrounds to be things like what they are in the playtest: occupations and ways of life about where you came from before you were who you are now.

I feel the earlier post by TamRad “threads the needle” pretty well.

She lists an assemblage of several evocative backgrounds-themes for each subrace. Choosing any of these confirms the character self-identifies with a subracial culture. So the way she has it, the backgrounds-themes are subracial (not racial) and at-the-same-time also occupational.

The Human has salient occupations within each Human culture, and the Wood Elf has different salient occupations within each Wood Elf culture.

• Pick your Race
• Race tells you stats and any features all members of your race get regardless of culture (human looks this way ATM, with no culture)
• Pick your culture (if any available)
• Your culture tells you some cool features that only your culture gets

The problem - or rather the awkardness - with this list is the choice of ability bonuses. For example, it seems, the Mountain Dwarf adds a Strength Score +1, while the Hill Dwarf adds a Constitution Score +1.

As such, the “Dwarf race” gets a choice of either Str or Con, but this choice - at least in some sense - determines the subrace. By extension, the subrace already comes with a default culture (or default choice of typical cultures). In other words, being a Strong Hill Dwarf, implies Mountain Dwarf parentage, despite growing up in a Hill Dwarf culture. Cultural implications entwine with the ability mechanics.

Its necessary to clarify how the choice of ability relates to subrace.



Maybe the racial bonus is a choice, rather than one informed by the culture? Perhaps dwarves have a choice of +1 increase to dex or str and maybe wis. Any of them seem appropriate to me for any type of dwarf I am currently aware of. If there's a particular culture for a race that does strain against the options, then the culture can always change the options. Of course, it could be just as easy for the culture to decide the ability score bumps instead of the race, and the race to only define things that are very general to all members of the particular race.

I want backgrounds to be things like what they are in the playtest: occupations and ways of life about where you came from before you were who you are now.

I feel the earlier post by TamRad “threads the needle” pretty well.

She lists an assemblage of several evocative backgrounds-themes for each subrace. Choosing any of these confirms the character self-identifies with a subracial culture. So the way she has it, the backgrounds-themes are subracial (not racial) and at-the-same-time also occupational.

The Human has salient occupations within each Human cultures, and the Wood Elf has different salient occupations within each Wood Elf culture.



I think I like the sound of that.


Heh, I actually hate the longsword for the Eladrin, no weapon can be more ridiculous for a Wizard.

By the way, a “longsword” is a huge hand-and-half sword. Its definitely a Strength weapon and it seems inappropriate for any Elf.



The hand-and-half sword is covered by the bastard sword in this edition. The longsword here would be shorter than a bastard sword, but heavy enough that you must wield it in your strong hand.




The longsword is hand-and-half sword, namely “versatile”.

If you specifically mean not a longsword, but an “arming sword” (like a knight’s sword or a viking sword), then I am cool with that. But to clarify, this kind of sword should be a finesse weapon that benefits from Dexterity. Arming swords are known for their agility. But it wouldnt be an offhand weapon. The stats for this kind of sword should be something like:
 
Sword: 1d8 slashing/piercing (one-handed, finesse) (blade length 2-3 ft, weight 3 lb)

If so, this sword is a Dex weapon, and I strongly support this weapon flourishes everywhere within the culture of the *Dextrous* Wood Elf. But not in the culture of the Intelligent High Elf.



But you know why Eladrin get to use it even though they are not typically strong? Magic. Or gravity. We decided last night that a lower gravitational pull explains a lot of D&D.



Intelligent Eladrin flourish in a culture of Wizards. (I think Harry Potter.) These Intelligent High Elves have little to do with swords, because area-blasting Wizards have no business messing around with this useless melee weapon, in the first place.

Even if the sword is Dextrous, the Intelligent High Elf is non-Dextrous. If it is neither Strength nor Dexterity that evolves a special affinity with a Dexterity sword, but magic, then they should be replacing the attack-and-damage ability with Intelligence, using wizardish magic to wield it instead. But they dont. And again, melee swords have little to do with Wizards.

If “lack of gravity” is how non-Strong Eladrin wield swords, then Strength wouldnt matter for any other race either, and clearly it does.

It seems to me, the normal sword is a Dexterous weapon, and the Dexterous Wood Elf should be wielding it. But not the Intelligent Eladrin.

• Pick your Race
• Race tells you stats and any features all members of your race get regardless of culture (human looks this way ATM, with no culture)
• Pick your culture (if any available)
• Your culture tells you some cool features that only your culture gets

The problem - or rather the awkardness - with this list is the choice of ability bonuses. For example, it seems, the Mountain Dwarf adds a Strength Score +1, while the Hill Dwarf adds a Constitution Score +1.

As such, the “Dwarf race” gets a choice of either Str or Con, but this choice - at least in some sense - determines the subrace. By extension, the subrace already comes with a default culture (or default choice of typical cultures). In other words, being a Strong Hill Dwarf, implies Mountain Dwarf parentage, despite growing up in a Hill Dwarf culture. Cultural implications entwine with the ability mechanics.

Its necessary to clarify how the choice of ability relates to subrace.



Maybe the racial bonus is a choice, rather than one informed by the culture? Perhaps dwarves have a choice of +1 increase to dex or str and maybe wis. Any of them seem appropriate to me for any type of dwarf I am currently aware of. If there's a particular culture for a race that does strain against the options, then the culture can always change the options. Of course, it could be just as easy for the culture to decide the ability score bumps instead of the race, and the race to only define things that are very general to all members of the particular race.



This area needs clarification, but you are right there are several ways to do it.
• subracial genetics determines which ability excels
• racial genetics allows flourishing at a choice of abilities
• subracial culture encourages a specific ability to excel (similar to how class boosts an ability)


All seem plausible, but each has to iron out exactly how rules work. For the second one, a “genetic” “choice” seems awkward - why would these choices be mutually exclusive? For the third one, does a Dwarf who grows up in a Wood Elf culture become Dextrous? For the first one, subracial genetics secures the existence of separate subraces and separate subracial cultures.
A dwarf growing up such might have a bonus to some dex checks for life long training, I think, but it wouldn't change his physical abilities.