Do you like Vancian Magic?

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I'm just curious as to how many people out there are a fan of Vancian magic and like to see its return, or think there is a better way to do magic.  This is meant as a simple yes/no thread to gauge the general consensus of the community.  So...

Do you like Vancian magic? 
No.


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...


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(Ok, I know you said simple yes or no thread, but I'd prefer spell points as the default. Some sort of pool of resources for casters to draw from. Having to pre-memorize your spells then having them deleted from your memory rips immersion to shreds for me. Having a finite amount of magical endurance/resouces before you are tapped out makes dramatically more sense for me). 
didn't like it in 2nd ed.
didn't like it in 3rd ed.
didn't mind much having daily abilities in 4th as it had some encounter based recharge.
don't like them in 5th ed. 
I don't "like" any system of magic that doesn't have consequences.

But the Vacian system at least had flavor over the Marvel Vs. Capcom style.
 
At Will Punch - At Will Punch - At Will Kick - Encounter Flurry - DAILY POWER BLAST!

i'll take useability that i can add my own flavor to over the forced magical revolver any day.
Yes/No... kind of.  I'll take Vancian over uber-cool video game combos any day.  But, I'd much prefer another system that makes sense within world.  Perhaps Vancian works in grim or post-apocalyptic settings like Ravenloft or Dark Sun (coming from the Dying Earth series, after all)...  But, I'd rather prefer magic being a growing experience that isn't cast and forget.  Perhaps using it too much drains you, with scaling levels of fatigue and life drain for each extended use.

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Hate Vancian. I always house rule it out unless someone really wants to use it, what rarely happens.
Nope.


There may have been a short period, when I first learned how to play D&D, where I thought it was at all a good idea.

But then, yeah, I came to my senses.

It's dumb, not representative of the fantasy genre, largely disruptive to gameplay, and generally the worst choice for modelling the same idea (y'know, magic).
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
I like vancian. It makes the player of the cast act intellgently and think twice before using spells. For me it is what defines D&D spellcasters. In the cast of a wizard or cleric planning you spellbook is a chore but one that help you think through what is to come and prioritize. 

Just me though. So many varied opinions and with each on opinions for and against.
@greatfrito: As I stated - I don't "like" Vancian magic, but do you really think 4th Edition was "representative of fantasy magic?"

May I have a reference?

4th Edition rituals did a far FAR better job of that.
Hate it.

Never liked "cast and forget" philosophy, nor spell preparation. Even less the fact that once your spells are cast, you are nothing but a dead weight. Spell points, or other ressource management magic systems were invented for a reason, you know...

Sometimes, I fantasize on a D&D version where the "spell points" used would be the Wizard's own Hit points - give him as much HP as everybody else, and let him decide how much he is ready to spend casting spells

Edit : and, as strange as it may seem to those who know how much I liked 4E, I completely agree with greatfrito's post bellow !
Remember Tunnel Seventeen !
Oh, not at all.  4e is just "Vancian plus", where the plus stuff was just better than the Vancian part.

I like 4e in spite of its Vancian elements.  I could do without them.  Easily.  A lot.

As you said, Rituals did a far better job of "Magic!" than the vancian system does.  I also think At-Will options, in general, go much further toward making things feel "right" for the Fantasy genre.


Hell, weirdly enough, I think I may have been more okay with daily powers for martial classes, in 4e.  At least there, "once per day" was being treated as pure abstraction for things that you might be trying all the time, but could only pull off every once-in-a-while.  Magic still treated "once per day" as a writ-large rule of reality.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
I like the 3.5e Spell Point variant from Unearthed Arcana.

But I also like having a ritualistic concept to spellcasting, depending on the campaign setting. 

For example, a low-magic setting should have ritual spellcasting, where there is a detailed preparation for each spell.. But a high-magic setting should have Spell Points similar to what I already mentioned. 
I'd personally prefer something like spell points, but the system they had worked out in 4e is also fine. As long as the wizard and/or sorcerer does not feel like he's been completely disarmed when all his spells are cast, the system is doing fine. And by disarmed, I mean out of spells. Just because we can chuck darts at things doesn't mean that we're still effective in combat.
No.

I've been playing since 1e and i've never liked it.  Daily resources I do like, but having to choose spells ahead of time tends to encourage players to stick with safe choices and doesn't feel realistic to me.  I like spells to scale with level too, rather than being replaced.  Some sort of spell point system would be my preference.

Yes.
I am not a fan of daily abilities at all, so I definitely hate Vancian magic. It was the reason I never played a caster in 2e, and the only caster I played in 3.5e was the Warlock.

Vancian magic is bad from a resource management perspective, since assuming X encounters per day forces the DM to arbitrarily make the PC's fight more often or less often than he otherwise would in order to maintain caster balance. It's a lame restriction on the game's storytelling flow. It feels like the only reason Vancian is back to evoke nostalgia rather than to improve game design.

Furthermore, the Vancian system is totally disconnected from most depictions of magic in fantasy fiction, whether old or modern. I have never read a fantasy story where the caster suddenly forgets a spell once he casts it, or has to worry about spells per day. The flavour of "forgetting spells" once you cast them is awkward.

The Vancian magic system is a big turn off for new players from non-D&D backgrounds who want to play casters. It just doesn't fit with most non-D&D players' feel for how magic works.
No.


..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />But the Vacian system at least had flavor over the Marvel Vs. Capcom style.
 
At Will Punch - At Will Punch - At Will Kick - Encounter Flurry - DAILY POWER BLAST!



Funny, I played Marvel vs Capcom, and it didn't have any Encounter or Daily attacks.
Yes. 
My favorite system of spellcasting is that found in Dungeon Crawl Classics - a different take on the Vancian theme: you have spells you know, and you can cast them all you want... so long as you never fail your spell check to cast, because if you do you can't use that spell until you recover it (usually) tomorrow.

That system also has variable potency of spell based on how well you roll, and dire consequences of varying nature for extreme failure... and even has a system in place to help a player keep casting even in the face of a string of terrible luck, so long as they are willing to pay the price.

As for the style of Vancian casting presented in D&D (1e, 2e, 3.x, and Pathfinder), I like it well enough... and if 5e sticks with giving at-will options if you choose to invest, I like that too.

TL;DR version - Yes... twice.
Careful, man. That much logic might be illegal on the internet. - Salla
Yeah, I like it, but for the wizard class specifically.  Planning ahead and preparing makes me feel like Arcane Batman.  It's a "smart"-seeming activity, so it makes perfect sense for the "smart" class.  And I like how it treats spells as discrete units, rather than pulling them all from a single source of spell points or such.  It makes wizardry seem to have analyzed and isolated all its spells - again, very fitting for the intellectual approach to magic.  While a sorcerer is like an sculptor, intuitively carving a statue out of a uniform block of marble, a wizard is more like an engineer, building a machine out of separate components each of which he understands completely.

So I'm glad to see that Vancian magic is back in full force for the wizard.  But I would like to see a very different system for the sorcerer, one that lends itself to freeform improvization.

As for the cleric... to me, at least, the cleric's particular approach to magic is not nearly as important.  A cleric is all about his relationship with his god, not his relationship with his spells.  So it's not the place for really cute spellcasting mechanics.  It needs something basic, easy to use, easy to understand, balanced, and amenable to its doing what we expect it to do.  I think the spontaneous casting system we see fits those goals, and also satisfies grognards with an old-school spells-per-level table.  (I have to admit I like those.)
I like it

Sometimes, I fantasize on a D&D version where the "spell points" used would be the Wizard's own Hit points - give him as much HP as everybody else, and let him decide how much he is ready to spend casting spells



but I like this idea even more
 
I enjoy the Vancian spell casting system, and I think the 5th edition has really patched most of the holes with it(mainly the at wills). The main issue I have seen people have with the Vancian spell casting system is they see it as the wizard casts and forgets the spell, I flavor it differently, he still retains the knowledge of the spell its just he doesnt have the physical/metaphysical energy to cast it again, and still be able to cast his other spells he has ready.

The only thing I would like to see is some more not combat at will opitions, like a prestidigation, an illusion cantrip, and perhaps a cantrip that allows you to summon some small animals (cat, bird, what have you).
I like it

Sometimes, I fantasize on a D&D version where the "spell points" used would be the Wizard's own Hit points - give him as much HP as everybody else, and let him decide how much he is ready to spend casting spells



but I like this idea even more
 



It would be difficult to balance, but I like this idea too. At least it has precedent in a lot of fantasy where casting magic is draining. Perhaps for really devious wizards you could draw the HP from a volunteer or unwilling victim.

It would be difficult to balance, but I like this idea too. At least it has precedent in a lot of fantasy where casting magic is draining. Perhaps for really devious wizards you could draw the HP from a volunteer or unwilling victim.


That's why Evil Wizards/Spellcasters are so interested in sacrificing people ...

Remember Tunnel Seventeen !
Having to pre-memorize your spells then having them deleted from your memory rips immersion to shreds for me.

I've always had this problem as well. I came up with an easy way to make it fit, though. If they keep faux-Vancian magic, you may want to think about it.

Basically, it's not that you "memorize the spell" and then "forget it". You, as a mage, generate magical energy. It swirls and collects around you, attracted to your inner power. That same inner power allows you to manipulate this magical energy. Thing is, you can't just snap your fingers and have things happen. It takes a lot of time and effort to shape the energy into the web of power that will create a specific effect when released. So, most mages do this beforehand. They shape the energy around them, but they don't release it. They simply anchor the energy to themselves, and they can release it at any time later on. They don't ever forget how to shape the energy, but they can't shape it fast enough to cast them spontaneously in combat. And once you've released that energy to cast the spell, it doesn't come back right away; it's been consumed to power the spell, so you have to wait until it regenerates naturally while you rest.

This fits well with Next, and how it only takes one minute per spell level to prepare a spell. If they allow Wizards to leave some slots open like they used to, then it fits even better. You can shape your energy whenever you want. If you choose not to shape it in the morning, you'll have to reshape it later on.

Since divine casters usually require a divine focus to cast, you can add a little extra flavor to them. Clerics and Druids can't manipulate magical energy like Wizards (and other arcane casters) can. They can, however, commune with their god, or the spirits. For Clerics, this means using their special focus as the anchor for their shaped spells, instead of themselves, since they can't do it on their own. Their god (or, more likely, their god's servants) shape the magic for them, then attach it to their focus, where they can release it at a later time.

For Druids, they don't shape energy the same way; they actually summon minor spirits that accompany them throughout the day. When the Druid asks, these minor spirits will expend the energy that's keeping them in the mortal world in order to perform a task. Each spirit is associated with a specific aspect of nature, and has a specific way that it can affect the world. A Druid's focus is a representation of the pact that the Druid has entered with the gods of nature, or the greater nature spirits. Without this focus, the spirits have no way of knowing that they can trust the Druid, and won't obey. (Spirits are rather simple. They won't recognize a caster as the one that called them, but they recognize the symbols of the greater spirits.)

If they introduce the Sorcerer as a spontaneous caster, then their flavor doesn't need to change at all. They use magical energy just like Wizards, but they're natural prodigies. They know certain types of magic (the spells they choose to know) so well, that they can shape the energies quickly and reliably, without any reference material (spellbook).

When I use this, I also usually include a higher-level version of Detect Magic (Discern Pattern) that allows one to see the energy around other casters, and use a Spellcraft check to determine some of the spells they have prepared. If you turn a spell on a high-level mage, you'd see a swirling, multicolor web of energy and power, and if you know enough about magic, you can read the patterns in that swirling energy to learn what spells the target has already shaped and ready to release. I'm thinking of allowing spells like Dispel Magic to target a specific prepared spell and destroy it, as well. But only if you'r eactively looking at the spell energy using the Discern Pattern spell.

It would be difficult to balance, but I like this idea too. At least it has precedent in a lot of fantasy where casting magic is draining. Perhaps for really devious wizards you could draw the HP from a volunteer or unwilling victim.


That's why Evil Wizards/Spellcasters are so interested in sacrificing people ...




This would make me want to play a caster for once hehe...
Yes, but that's the voice of nostalgia talking, and I recognize it.

Technically, the most playable system was a very simple one: We simply took all the spell levels, added them up, and turned them into spell points. We found it gave us balance to keep the spell slot table as "maximum of this level of spell per day", and allow players to trade a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell. So, you couldn't just spend all your spell slots casting Wishes all day, but you could cast a ton of fireballs in a day if you needed to, and essentially cast magic missile all day long if necessary. Sure, the mage was still overly powerful, but that was going to happen inherently in the game system, and most of our players took prestige classes to balance it (10 attack per round fighters, at-will shapeshifting druids, etc).
Yes, I like Vancian casting.  

. . .

I'm over-joyed to see it in the playtest and hope it makes a comeback when DDN is finalized.  A module is fine with me ;); keep the AEDU structure for those who prefer it.

One thing that bothers me about it  however is that as originally envisoned, spells are daily only.  I'd like to see more options for at-will and encounter spells.  That, and rituals as a co-system.

/\ Art
I have never liked vancian.  However, I recognize that some people do.  That's all well and good.  I just really want the PHB to include a module on how to switch out vancian for another system (power-based, point-based, skill check-to cast, etc).  This will be in my feedback on every class that uses vancian by default.
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

I like it...

Veteran of The Transfer... Add 700 to my post count... 

I guess if I were to rephrase my post as a yes or no answer, I'd have to say no. I like the general idea of being able to alter what spells are available to tailor myself to the situation. At the same time, the current system of doing that (vacian system) feeds player insecurity and encourages abuse. To use the vacian system properly, the player would either need an incredible amount of intel on the challenges he will be facing (so he knows what spells to prepare) and be a veteran player who can approximate the CR of an encounter by eyeballing it (to know when he needs to cast those spells).

In short, no, I do not personally like the Vacian magic system. (This is coming from a person who primarily plays Pathfinder wizards).
What exactly do you mean by a "Vancian magic' system?
I think that if it's a tradition that goes all the way back to 1e, then 5e should keep it as core.
I also think that the 5th edition core rule system should have all of the traditional 1st edition spells (like prismatic sphere, create food and water, and wish) in the core system.
Vancian never created any problem for my group.    We really didn't mind it.

The problem I have is that all editions after 2e completely ignored the spell point system from the 2e players option books.    For me the problem was already solved ages ago.     In fact, I'll most likely go back to using it with 5e.


Having to pre-memorize your spells then having them deleted from your memory rips immersion to shreds for me.

I've always had this problem as well. I came up with an easy way to make it fit, though. If they keep faux-Vancian magic, you may want to think about it.

Basically, it's not that you "memorize the spell" and then "forget it". You, as a mage, generate magical energy. It swirls and collects around you, attracted to your inner power. That same inner power allows you to manipulate this magical energy. Thing is, you can't just snap your fingers and have things happen. It takes a lot of time and effort to shape the energy into the web of power that will create a specific effect when released. So, most mages do this beforehand. They shape the energy around them, but they don't release it. They simply anchor the energy to themselves, and they can release it at any time later on. They don't ever forget how to shape the energy, but they can't shape it fast enough to cast them spontaneously in combat. And once you've released that energy to cast the spell, it doesn't come back right away; it's been consumed to power the spell, so you have to wait until it regenerates naturally while you rest.

This fits well with Next, and how it only takes one minute per spell level to prepare a spell. If they allow Wizards to leave some slots open like they used to, then it fits even better. You can shape your energy whenever you want. If you choose not to shape it in the morning, you'll have to reshape it later on.

Since divine casters usually require a divine focus to cast, you can add a little extra flavor to them. Clerics and Druids can't manipulate magical energy like Wizards (and other arcane casters) can. They can, however, commune with their god, or the spirits. For Clerics, this means using their special focus as the anchor for their shaped spells, instead of themselves, since they can't do it on their own. Their god (or, more likely, their god's servants) shape the magic for them, then attach it to their focus, where they can release it at a later time.

For Druids, they don't shape energy the same way; they actually summon minor spirits that accompany them throughout the day. When the Druid asks, these minor spirits will expend the energy that's keeping them in the mortal world in order to perform a task. Each spirit is associated with a specific aspect of nature, and has a specific way that it can affect the world. A Druid's focus is a representation of the pact that the Druid has entered with the gods of nature, or the greater nature spirits. Without this focus, the spirits have no way of knowing that they can trust the Druid, and won't obey. (Spirits are rather simple. They won't recognize a caster as the one that called them, but they recognize the symbols of the greater spirits.)

If they introduce the Sorcerer as a spontaneous caster, then their flavor doesn't need to change at all. They use magical energy just like Wizards, but they're natural prodigies. They know certain types of magic (the spells they choose to know) so well, that they can shape the energies quickly and reliably, without any reference material (spellbook).

When I use this, I also usually include a higher-level version of Detect Magic (Discern Pattern) that allows one to see the energy around other casters, and use a Spellcraft check to determine some of the spells they have prepared. If you turn a spell on a high-level mage, you'd see a swirling, multicolor web of energy and power, and if you know enough about magic, you can read the patterns in that swirling energy to learn what spells the target has already shaped and ready to release. I'm thinking of allowing spells like Dispel Magic to target a specific prepared spell and destroy it, as well. But only if you'r eactively looking at the spell energy using the Discern Pattern spell.


QFT


I like that and yes I like tha Vancian. Psionics in 3.5 presented a structured version with the power pool and power costs to manifest instead of x level per day.  
I prefer vancian over aedu. I also would like to see spells keep their earlier "definitions". Earlier versions of prismatic spray had 8 colour options that could hit a target. Why did 4E reduce it to 6?

I would like to see an optional spell point system. Perhaps a simplified version from the one detailed in AD&D Player Options: Spells and Magic.

 home.online.no/~rahag/AD&D/Spells_&_Magi...
Nope, never have.

I blame this on my beginning in a different system, where magic was handled in a more "do whatever you want" kind of way (things had different repercussions). I have to say I was disappointed to see spell slots and memorization in the playtest packet.

I do recognize that it's more traditional D&D and that other people enjoy it, however, and so would be happy if they simply released optional rules for more spontaneous spell casting in the core books.
Benevolent God of Death "No one told you when to run."
Yes I do.
Overall, yes.

Im not particularly fond of the "forgetfulness" explanation, but I do like the strategic focus and the importance of planning and preparation.

What I really like is the feeling of it being a completely different system, with its own rules - when Im playing a mage I dont want to spend 90% of the time feeling like im just an archer with different fluff to describe my arrows, which is often how I end up feeling with some of the alternatives (eg, at-will low level spells). If I wanted to "always be contributing" Id play something else... I play a mage to hide in the background and have occasional, sudden moments of brilliance.
I like it... I like it a Lot more when suplimented with some minor at-wills, I Love it when suplimented with Rituals.

I see non-Vancian as more superpowerish, which not what D&D is to me.  I think, if you don't want to be restricted by the laws of arcanum, be a fighter. 

Some other potential module fixes:
- It would be neat to see some suppliments where you can use or risk your hitpoints to cast more spells, but I believe that would be a modular addition.  Fighters and rogues could have a similar pool for exceptional stunts or maneuvers.  But arguably that just adding another pool for vancian magic not removing it. 
- modual for maneuvers/spells 4e style.  I can't see this as being a less than option, if there is a demand I imagine Wizards with create.
- It would be nice that if there are tiers(like paragon/epic) that you'd get some stronger at-will choices based on that.  If I'm a lightning or fire paragon path or prestige class I should be able to shoot it at will.
- Reserve feats.
- psionics

another option:
If you don't like running out of magic, try DMing.  You'll have lots of it at your finger tips
Love it.  It is part of what makes D&D for me.  I love it in D&D and other games it is in.