Poison Counters Vs. Divine Deflection

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I have heard two different answers from tournament judges and mixed answers from friends as well so please respond with Official Response (Not Opinion).
 Question - Does "Divine Deflection" deflect poison counters  back at a creature or player?  
 
 ***the official rules say it doesnt deflect deathtouch or lifelink, but it does not specify poison counters***  
 
 Scenario - 1. Opponent attacks with Inkmoth Nexus. It has been pumped up(UEOT) to a 3/3 flying infect while still a land.
                 2. with only 2 mana available, You "devine deflect" 1 poison damage/counter back onto "inkmoth nexus."
                 
  IF IT DOES DEFLECT POISON COUNTERS - Does inkmoth nexus stay with a -1/-1 poison counter because it was placed while it was a creature and land at the same time???? Therefore next time inkmoth nexus transforms it will auto-die.
 
 "
Like i said, i have read the official rules on "Divine Deflection" and "Inkmoth Nexus" and "Poison Counters"..... none of those give a clear answer. I have heard to different answers from tournament refs as well......PLEASE HELP!!!    
                 
 
Divine Deflection does two things.

It prevents damage, and then deals damage. it doesn't "deflect" the damage, despite what the name of the card is. Deathtouch and lifelink are irrelevant, as is Infect. Deflection itself is the source of the damage, and it does not have any abilities such as Infect, Lifelink, etc. - it will deal normal damage to whatever it targets. 

Sean Stackhouse Level Two Judge (Yay!) Maine

There are two parts to Deflection. The first part prevents damage. The second part deals damage.

Since Deflection is dealing the damage, what abilities the source had is irrelevant.
… and then, the squirrels came.
There are two parts to Deflection. The first part prevents damage. The second part deals damage.

Since Deflection is dealing the damage, what abilities the source had is irrelevant.

Thanks for the quick response. Its not the answer i would like..but i see what you are saying. on second part of this, do poison counters stay on inkmoth nexus since it is a creature and land at same time???
There are two parts to Deflection. The first part prevents damage. The second part deals damage.

Since Deflection is dealing the damage, what abilities the source had is irrelevant.

Thanks for the quick response. Its not the answer i would like..but i see what you are saying. on second part of this, do poison counters stay on inkmoth nexus since it is a creature and land at same time???



Poison counters can only be on players.  If you put any other type of counter on the Nexus, such as a -1/-1 counter, it will stay there.
 

So should the text on Divine Deflection really say "Prevent the next "X" damage that would be dealt to you and or permanents you control this turn. If damage is prevented this way, Divine Deflection deal "X" damage to target creature or player." 
 
instead the card currently says -  Divine Deflection deals "That" much damage to....


Where "That" refers to a 1 infect damage.... in this scenario.


Do you understand what i mean???

"that much" is simply a number, it doesn't carry infect, wither, deathtouch and whathaveyou with it.
usually "that much" is the same as X, but not always
proud member of the 2011 community team
Thats what i mean.....There is poor wording in this text and it has lead to confusion even with FNM runners.
it's worded that way in case only partial damage can be prevented
your way would work as well, but would make the card stronger

it might be confusing for new players, but if you read the card carefully and know the rules it is quite clear.
proud member of the 2011 community team
shoot....well at least i still got my Righteous Blows to handle the Nexus.......
it's worded that way in case only partial damage can be prevented
your way would work as well, but would make the card stronger

it might be confusing for new players, but if you read the card carefully and know the rules it is quite clear.

and you say it may be confusing to new players but if you read the original article i have called multiple FNM runners and spoken to their refs and got mixed answers from them...so unless magic lets newbies run their tournaments....
not every judge/TO gets the rules right ;)
they are human after all and with so many stores it's difficult to have a great judge in each and every one.
proud member of the 2011 community team
So lets say i used Shining Shoal instead. I know its not T2 standard legal, but would that allow me to put -1/-1 counter on the nexus????

So should the text on Divine Deflection really say "Prevent the next "X" damage that would be dealt to you and or permanents you control this turn. If damage is prevented this way, Divine Deflection deal "X" damage to target creature or player." 
 
instead the card currently says -  Divine Deflection deals "That" much damage to....


Where "That" refers to a 1 infect damage.... in this scenario.


Do you understand what i mean???



If it said that, the card would basically be a fireball on crack. "Oh you're swinging for one? I'ma prevent the next twelve damage and deal twelve to your face." The current wording ensures only the damage that's prevented is dealt, hence the "deflection" flavor.

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Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
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.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
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I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
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112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
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So lets say i used Shining Shoal instead. I know its not T2 standard legal, but would that allow me to put -1/-1 counter on the nexus????

Shining Shoal

yes, that doesn't change the source of the damage
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THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO GAVE INPUT ON MY QUESTION - I STILL HATE YOUR ANSWER BUT RESPECT YOUR KNOWLEDGE>>>>MAY THE MANA BE WITH YOU....Laughing
shoot....well at least i still got my Righteous Blows to handle the Nexus.......


What do you mean by this?

You do realise that Devine Deflection can not only stop the damage done by an Inkmoth Nexus (as long as you pay enough for it), but can also kill the Inkmoth too, right? 

It DD doesnt have Infect, so wont deal damage in the form of Poison Counters to players or in the form of -1/-1 counters to creatures - it just deals damage normally.

~ Tim     
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Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
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57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
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he probably meant when he only has mana for X less than the power of the inkmoth nexus
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Thats what i mean.....There is poor wording in this text and it has lead to confusion even with FNM runners.


I'm not saying I disbelieve you, but I don't see why it is confusing to these people, assuming English is their first language. "That much" does not mean the same thing as "that"; it only implies that the amount is the same, not any other characteristic. One understands the meaning of a sentence by looking at the whole sentence, not by picking apart individual words out of context.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
If you pay 6 for X, and the only damage dealt to you is 3, then 3 will be prevented and 3 will be dealt, not 3 will be prevented and 6 will be dealt. I gather that the OP was wondering if damage dealt with the added note of Infect would still be Infect after being prevented and having Divine Deflection deal damage (it would not, as DD does not have Infect, as noted already).

In any case, you decide X, and that is the maximum Divine Deflection will prevent and can in return deal, though the damage originally dealt may not be equal to X. If you cast the spell before any attacks are declared or spells cast, the opponent would just not do anything and you waste a card and X mana. The -1/-1 counters are added as damage by the ability Infect, which is only on the damage dealt by the Inkmoth Nexus, not Divine Deflection.

Also, the information on Gatherer tells you exactly how this card works when dealing with added damage effects.
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Where "That" refers to a 1 infect damage.... in this scenario.

There is no such thing as "infect damage." Your thinking that there is is part of the problem. There is only "damage from a source with infect." (The difference is that one suggests there is something special about the damage itself, whereas the other points to the source of the damage.

Damage dealing is a three-step process.

  1. Damage is dealt.

  2. Damage is transformed into its results.

  3. The results are applied.

In the first step, you apply things that prevent, redirect or otherwise replace the damage event with a modified event. Divine Deflection applies here.

Transforming into results requres you look at (a) what is being damaged and (b) any abilities of the source of damage. This is where you apply Infect, Wither or Lifelink, if the source of damage has any of those abilities. Some examples.

Lightning Bolt deals three damage to the target. If that target is a player, it results in the player losing three life. If the target is a creature, three damage is marked on the creature.If something gives the Bolt Wither then damage to a creature will result in three -1/-1 counters being placed on that creature; if the Bolt was aimed at a player, then it would still result in the player losing three life.

The third step is simply changing the gamestate in the indicated way.

The point of this is to show that Divine Deflection, like all other effects that prevent, redirect or otherwise replace damage, does not know nor care what the results of damage will be, because they have their effect before damage is transformed into results.

Since Divine Deflection prevents damage and then deals an amount equal to the amount prevented, any damage dealt to a player this way will only result in placing poison counters if Divine Deflection somehow gains Infect. Similarly, damage dealt to a creature will only result in -1/-1 counters being placed if Divine Deflection somehow gains Infect or Wither.
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Sorry to post on old feeds, does divine deflection on choose one target to deal damage to at the end of it resolving?

For instance I swing 5 5/5's and my opponent blocks with 5 1/1's and play divine deflection for 1wX=5 can he deal 5 damage to each of my 5/5's?or Would it jus be 25 damage to one target?
Sorry to post on old feeds, does divine deflection on choose one target to deal damage to at the end of it resolving?


You choose the target when you cast the Devine Deflection, not when it resolves.


For instance I swing 5 5/5's and my opponent blocks with 5 1/1's and play divine deflection for 1wX=5 can he deal 5 damage to each of my 5/5's?or Would it jus be 25 damage to one target?


5 of the damage of your choice would be redirected to the target.

Please start a new thread for questions.