Save or Die, they went there...

If you look at the Medusa monster in either the Bestiary (page 21) or Caves of Chaos (page 27), you will notice that the Medusa has a petrifying gaze attack.

Petrifying Gaze: The medusa's gaze can turn living flesh to stone. Unless a creature averts its eyes from the medusa, which causes the creature to have disadvantage on all attacks against it anyone attacking it to gain advantage against it until its next turn, it must make a DC 12 Constitution saving throw on its turn before taking any actions or moving. A creature can decide to avert its gaze or make the saving throw. A suprised creature cannot choose to avert its gaze. On a failed save, it instantly and permanently turns to stone.

Besides the horrible gramatical structure of the entry and giant run on sentence describing the ability, it is a save or die mechanic.  Yes the medusa in the premade adventure has the antidote on her, but this is still a save or die effect.  Personally, I am venomently opposed to SOD mechanics.  I don't care how easy the save is, I don't care that you put the antidote/scroll of resurection on the monster.  SOD effects make an entire characters fate dependant on one roll, this applies if you put SOD in the hands of players too (even bigger mistake in my mind).  As soon as you give players SOD spells, they get a party of 20 wizards and go hunt gruumsh or something ungodly like that.  It breeds munchkinism and abuse of meta knowledge in just about every game I have played (I got carried away with it when I first played a sorcerer).  If you make BBEGs immune to SOD, then you took away the only REALLY good time to use SOD effects and no one bothers with them. IF (stress added) you want SOD in the game, I would appreciate it in a module all it's own that I can lock it away perminently for my games.  I know that some people like the suspense that SOD brings to the table, my groups are a little to tactically minded to just let the big bomb sit there if it's a player option and they will kick me out of my DM seat if I use it against them.

Comments or criticisms are appreciated, just keep in mind the forum rules and don't start making statements you can't back up with some logic or facts please.  We are all trying to make 5th be the system we can all play, lets give it a decent try.
It's kind-of iconic of the Medusa. There are ways to absolutely avoid it, so what's the problem?

Would you rather have the gaze cause your character to be suited up in a pink bunny costume?

complaining about an iconic monster's attack doesn't really do any good. If you don't like it, don't use it.
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb 1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic. it?" -anon "Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it." -Maxperson
I don't mind SOD effects... but I think they should be few and far between and used mainly in dungeons you want to be exceptionally lethal, IE Tomb of Horrors. And I despise giving them to PCs for the very reason you mentioned above. And it's not like 4E got rid of SODs, it was just they used them under rare circumstances.
The gaze is part of the Medusa going back to the original real world mythology of the creature. Why would you want to remove it from the creature? If you dont want to use the SOD as a DM, you can remove it. Asking for it to be removed from the publication of the creature to me is unwarranted and strips away the charm/horror of the creature.

I do agree with you the entry was poorly written though.
It's kind-of iconic of the Medusa. There are ways to absolutely avoid it, so what's the problem?

Would you rather have the gaze cause your character to be suited up in a pink bunny costume?

complaining about an iconic monster's attack doesn't really do any good. If you don't like it, don't use it.



I am not having issue with the "SO" part, it's when you at the "D" at the end that things get hairy.  Although the pink bunny costume would be entertaining, I was more thinking have the initial effect be stunned as you feel your body start to turn to stone and panic like a mad person.  I don't like it when anything in the game can go drom 100% good to dead due to one flubbed roll.  

I am not complaining about the medusa having a petrifying gaze.  I am trying to bring to light that having a SOD effect in the playtest of the core material means that if the game were released tomorrow we would have to deal with SOD throughout because it is not a module.  If you like SOD, great.  Add the SOD module to your game, I don't ever want to see SOD effects again.  If it's part of the social contract of your game that you can just kill a player for no reason then great, I don't have the privilage of playing with a group of civil, intelligent and mature as you do evidently.
There are many remove-from-combat effects available to PCs and NPCs.  Some take longer and special circumstances to restore a player, but it's typical to D&D.  Even dead characters can come back.  I see being dead as an opportunity for players to do something different, otherwise they may have to wait to be restored which is the biggest complaint.  I've played plenty of board games where I was the first out and had to wait a couple of hours to play again.  It's just an incentive for players to play smart.  As a DM, I think it's fair to give the PCs plenty of warning of such circumstances, otherwise they'll be an especially paranoid group if you just spring these kind of things on them.  

Paranoid players equals slow game play.
Oh come on... The medusa gaze doesn't mean they'll return to save or die spells. And not even that too many monsters will have them.
It's a so particular monster (the medusa I mean) that there are very few other ways to include her special and iconic power in the rules. And I cannot think of any right now.
What do you wanted? "If you fail the saving throw for the medusa's gaze you're paralyzed til your next round."
If D&D next will be the game where a medusa doesn't have a petrifing gaze it will be the game that I won't buy.
I'm not a fan of SoD effect either. I, personally, mostly liked the way they worked in 4e. That is, make several saves or die. So the medusa gazes at you and you begin to feel heavy and lethargic (slow for a round) if you fail a save you are completely immobilized for a round, and if you fail another save you are turned to stone. There are two benefits to this approach. First, it takes a couple rolls to die and a string of bad luck is more rare than a single moment of bad luck. Second, it gives the rest of the party a chance to try to do something about it. 

The second benefit is the bigger one in my opinion. You begin to turn to stone, you cry out, and your party's cleric can take an action to grant you advantage on a saving throw, or an extra saving throw, or something. Giving the character, and the party, a chance to react and at least try to change the outcome makes it all feel more fair.

You can leave the effects in, with all the benefits and tension they create, but remove the feeling of impotence on the part of the players.

I also think that SoD effects should be kept out of the hands of players all together.
Besides the horrible gramatical structure of the entry and giant run on sentence describing the ability, it is a save or die mechanic.  Yes the medusa in the premade adventure has the antidote on her, but this is still a save or die effect.




...And thank goodness for that.  

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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

It's kind-of iconic of the Medusa. There are ways to absolutely avoid it, so what's the problem?

Would you rather have the gaze cause your character to be suited up in a pink bunny costume?

complaining about an iconic monster's attack doesn't really do any good. If you don't like it, don't use it.



I am not having issue with the "SO" part, it's when you at the "D" at the end that things get hairy.  Although the pink bunny costume would be entertaining, I was more thinking have the initial effect be stunned as you feel your body start to turn to stone and panic like a mad person.  I don't like it when anything in the game can go drom 100% good to dead due to one flubbed roll.  

I am not complaining about the medusa having a petrifying gaze.  I am trying to bring to light that having a SOD effect in the playtest of the core material means that if the game were released tomorrow we would have to deal with SOD throughout because it is not a module.  If you like SOD, great.  Add the SOD module to your game, I don't ever want to see SOD effects again.  If it's part of the social contract of your game that you can just kill a player for no reason then great, I don't have the privilage of playing with a group of civil, intelligent and mature as you do evidently.




Every single monster in the game is an optional 'module'. Each DM is free to decide which modules to include n his or her game.  There is no reason to arbitrarily weaken some modules at the behest of some players. Just include enough modules so everyone has a wide gamut to support their playstyle. For instance, for every module that has a SoD effect, there are probably on the order of 25 that DON'T have said mechanic.

Use the modules you like!

EDIT: Also, this particular SoD is 100% avoidable by fighting with a disadvantage...just decide to NOT look at the medusa.
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb 1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic. it?" -anon "Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it." -Maxperson
Since the medusa's ability is clearly avoidable, I think it's a passable save or die effect.  The big problem with save-or-dies is when they aren't telegraphed or avoidable.  For example, "You fight the evil sorcerer.  He casts finger of death.  Save or die."  Not good game design.  But what the medusa's ability really is is an aura that causes people to fight at disadvantage, with a flavorful consequence for not obeying rather than just forcing the effect.
If you look at the Medusa monster in either the Bestiary (page 21) or Caves of Chaos (page 27), you will notice that the Medusa has a petrifying gaze attack.

Petrifying Gaze: The medusa's gaze can turn living flesh to stone. Unless a creature averts its eyes from the medusa, which causes the creature to have disadvantage on all attacks against it anyone attacking it to gain advantage against it until its next turn, it must make a DC 12 Constitution saving throw on its turn before taking any actions or moving. A creature can decide to avert its gaze or make the saving throw. A suprised creature cannot choose to avert its gaze. On a failed save, it instantly and permanently turns to stone.

Besides the horrible gramatical structure of the entry and giant run on sentence describing the ability, it is a save or die mechanic.  Yes the medusa in the premade adventure has the antidote on her, but this is still a save or die effect.  Personally, I am venomently opposed to SOD mechanics.  I don't care how easy the save is, I don't care that you put the antidote/scroll of resurection on the monster.  SOD effects make an entire characters fate dependant on one roll, this applies if you put SOD in the hands of players too (even bigger mistake in my mind).  As soon as you give players SOD spells, they get a party of 20 wizards and go hunt gruumsh or something ungodly like that.  It breeds munchkinism and abuse of meta knowledge in just about every game I have played (I got carried away with it when I first played a sorcerer).  If you make BBEGs immune to SOD, then you took away the only REALLY good time to use SOD effects and no one bothers with them. IF (stress added) you want SOD in the game, I would appreciate it in a module all it's own that I can lock it away perminently for my games.  I know that some people like the suspense that SOD brings to the table, my groups are a little to tactically minded to just let the big bomb sit there if it's a player option and they will kick me out of my DM seat if I use it against them.

Comments or criticisms are appreciated, just keep in mind the forum rules and don't start making statements you can't back up with some logic or facts please.  We are all trying to make 5th be the system we can all play, lets give it a decent try.

petrification is not instant death. However, I love that they put instant death back into the game. I want a sense of danger for my players. They all are excited about the aspect of death being around the corner again.

More instant death please!
As I am running the playtest tomorrow I have given the Medusa some thought of how to warn the players that something deadly is nearby.

The prisoners tell them that this complex was once ruled by a Medusa and they overheard a guard / monster saying she had been deposed and put in a locked room. 

Approaching the area where the Medusa is imprisoned there is are a large amount of very detailed statues in the corridors and rooms, some with surprised expressions as if they were caught unexpectedly.

I think that gives the players fair warning something leathal is nearby or in the dungeon, so its noe up to them to take the approprite precautions.

Let the Gods of Dice make their play if they just blunder in
The medusa's real power is that it makes you fight with disadvantage, for the most part.

That said, here's how I feel about SoDs -
- SoDs are way, way more effective as a game element if they're rare. Rare scary things are more impressive than everyday scary things.
- SoDs are best deployed - as on this medusa - in situations where it's really resonant. Medusas can turn you to stone. That's what they do. "Random mid-level wizards can turn you to stone" isn't quite so resonant.
- SoDs that offer you another way out are a pretty cool design element. That way you can have a monster with a lot of the fear involved in "this thing can turn you to stone with a glance" but without just making the monster goofily swingy.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
The medusa's real power is that it makes you fight with disadvantage, for the most part.

That said, here's how I feel about SoDs -
- SoDs are way, way more effective as a game element if they're rare. Rare scary things are more impressive than everyday scary things.
- SoDs are best deployed - as on this medusa - in situations where it's really resonant. Medusas can turn you to stone. That's what they do. "Random mid-level wizards can turn you to stone" isn't quite so resonant.
- SoDs that offer you another way out are a pretty cool design element. That way you can have a monster with a lot of the fear involved in "this thing can turn you to stone with a glance" but without just making the monster goofily swingy.



QFT
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb 1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic. it?" -anon "Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it." -Maxperson
I think that the medusa's gaze is too strong. It should work with the hit point trigger, like the Hold Person Spell, and some way to cure the condition.
I think that the medusa's gaze is too strong. It should work with the hit point trigger, like the Hold Person Spell, and some way to cure the condition.


In general I think the hit point trigger mechanic is a good idea for very powerful effects like petrification.  But as has already been noted, the medusa's power is a special case in that offers you another way out.  You have to voluntarily expose yourself to the gaze, and if you do, on your own head be it.

Also, I would be extremely surprised if the stone to flesh spell weren't in the game.  The apparent irreversibility is almost certainly an artifact of the limited view we currently have.

By the way, I love the bit about the medusa's head temporarily retaining its power after her death.
Save or Die FTW!!!

Tickled me to death to see this in the adventure.  As I've said in various posts, I've played 3rd edition, spanning 3.0, 3.5 to Pathfinder, for 10 years now.  And after that, a year of 4th (all I could take).  We returned to Pathfinder long enough to rebuild enough of a 1st/2nd edition AD&D collection to return to them.  We were skeptical at first, worried we might have wasted our money rebuilding the collection.  It had been so long since we played 1st/2nd edition.  But once we started, it was as though we had been away for too long and had finally come home.  The flow of the game was SO nice.

But to the topic, my group and I hadn't realized how much we missed the save or die aspect.  I love, and have missed, the tension, in the roleplay and the air around the table, as a thief attempts to disarm a trap.  So much more thrill and exitement than in the later editions where poison was only an annoyance if the Cleric didn't have a 2nd level Minor Restoration spell  memorized.

But for all the "walkthrough" types, I'm sure WotC will release an alternative to the save or die mechanic in upcoming modules.

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/5.jpg)

Well I'm sure they'll make resurrection much cheaper than it has been in the last couple of editions too.  Problem solved!

Currently playtesting Murder in Baldur's Gate with the current iteration of D&D Next.

Also running a 2nd edition AD&D game.

Well I'm sure they'll make resurrection much cheaper than it has been in the last couple of editions too.  Problem solved!



Psh. I hope they make it about 1,000,000,000 gold per resurrection with the average person only having about 250k by the time they hit 20th. i want death to be PAINFUL.
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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

The medusa's real power is that it makes you fight with disadvantage, for the most part.

That said, here's how I feel about SoDs -
- SoDs are way, way more effective as a game element if they're rare. Rare scary things are more impressive than everyday scary things.
- SoDs are best deployed - as on this medusa - in situations where it's really resonant. Medusas can turn you to stone. That's what they do. "Random mid-level wizards can turn you to stone" isn't quite so resonant.
- SoDs that offer you another way out are a pretty cool design element. That way you can have a monster with a lot of the fear involved in "this thing can turn you to stone with a glance" but without just making the monster goofily swingy.



QFT



Seconded.

Also I like the SoDs for a sense of risk, and to give a feeling (when used in traps) that someone really wants what is past it protected from thieves. The player having SoDs are handy as well when used properly. My group that I had tried to play 4e but threw that out quickly to go back to earlier editions when we noticed that it felt like we where playing WoW pen and paper version.
At least it only takes 1 minute to roll up a new character for the playtest! No time wasted!
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb 1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic. it?" -anon "Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it." -Maxperson
I think the issue of SoD effects goes back to something they covered in an article on the website before...  As long as you know it's coming and have a good way to avoid it (blind folds, averted eyes, etc...) then the effect never comes into play.  This is fine as far as I'm concerned.  The only time it really becomes an issue is when the adventure just randomly throws these type of effects into unexpected places, but that's a matter of bad adventure design more than anything else. In that case, it's more of a DM failure than a game failure.
I also very much like the medusa ability. The text should be cleared up in terms of how many pcs she can gaze at when catching them in surprise and, since surprise means you take a -10 on int checks, what does it really mean to be surprised? Otherwise, it's fantastic. Very deadly and rare monster that, if defeated, gives you a one time very powerful weapon! In fact, the whole beastiery has been a blast to the past in reading it (enev with the 4th Ed elements of interrupts and other similar features). Very nice!
I think the issue of SoD effects goes back to something they covered in an article on the website before...  As long as you know it's coming and have a good way to avoid it (blind folds, averted eyes, etc...) then the effect never comes into play.



I think this is an excellent way of thinking about it. The medusa's ability is not actually save or die, but rather forcing the player to choose between taking a penalty, or taking a risk. The difference is that there is a choice.
Psh. I hope they make it about 1,000,000,000 gold per resurrection with the average person only having about 250k by the time they hit 20th. i want death to be PAINFUL.


Sure, and let's also riddle each dungeon with trappers, lurkers above, stun jellies, piercers and rust monsters and cave-in triggers on every other stone. And for each dead character the player should have a tooth kicked in. That'll teach 'em!


That said, I think the standard Save or Die mechanic only sounded good because there wasn't anything better back then, so everyone expected it to work that way. But a monster should be lethal without such "boom, you're dead" tricks. I think now WotC knows how to do this.
That's something 4e's Bloodied condition would be handy in: if you fail a save, you're slowed or immobilized, unless you're bloodied – then you turn to stone. Say, wasn't something like that suggested in Daily D&D about a month ago?...


Oh, and one particular issue with the Medusa: it mentions that she usually tries to lure opponents into the range of her gaze, but it's never mentioned how far that is. 60ft? 5ft? As far as she can see?
I'm sorry, SoD needs to GTFO.

If you're so freaking wedded to 'Oops, you're dead' as a core game mechanic, go play OSRIC or FATAL.  Getting rid of the one bad roll means make a new character phenomenon was the best thing that ever happened to D&D.

In the spesific case of the medusa, it's borderline, as there is a spesific way to avoid it, but not when surprised.  Take away the removal of the avaidance clause on surprise and it's a reasonable mechanic.  Otherwise, I'd prefer if it dealt damage, say 4-6 on average, and petrified you if you dropped below a certain threshold (Perhaps 0, or 10, or somthing like that) rather then having a character who, not knowing what a medusa is (In character, or in the case of the poorly educated, out of character) did not realize the danger.  Also, I would make it clear that the DM needs to call out that they can look away or make the save, as a particularly bloodthirsty DM (and don't tell me that jackapples like that don't exist, I know better) can simply NOT TELL THE PC ABOUT THE OPTION, and when they complain later say 'Well, why didn't you look away?' all shocked like.

It's a poorly designed and badly thought out mechanic, both in concept and execution, apparently aimed at appealing to people who's taste in gaming has remained rooted in the Gygax Gotcha adventures of the 80's.  I want it gone.  Or I will be.
That's something 4e's Bloodied condition would be handy in: if you fail a save, you're slowed or immobilized, unless you're bloodied – then you turn to stone. Say, wasn't something like that suggested in Daily D&D about a month ago?...



I think they have brought in something similar this edition. For example, if you look at Charm Person or Command, they don't allow a save at all if the target is at 10hp or below. I think your suggestion of having failed saves do something different depending on hp is great, and I'm going to steal it for when I give them feedback.


petrification is not instant death. However, I love that they put instant death back into the game. I want a sense of danger for my players. They all are excited about the aspect of death being around the corner again.

More instant death please!



I don't midn SoD for reasons I'll post below, but I don't really like this line of thought right here. The problem is, if you have to have instant death threats to challenge your aprty, you really need to take a second look at your own encounter building. Not to say it doesn't have it's palce, but if it's the only thing you can think of that gives your party a challenge....yeah.

Anywho, I don't mind SoD as long as a few things remain true.

1.There's a chance it can be seen coming. Like stone statues littered around a possible Medusa layer kind of thing.
2.You have a chance to avoid it. That's why I like how it's written above. There's a way to avoid it that still puts you at a disadvantage without instakilling you.
3. If neither of the above are true, it should require multiple saves. This is why I didn't mind 4e SoSoSoD as much.  It gave you multiple chances of escaping a sudden death trap instead of just "Surprise, bad roll, you died, go reroll a character while everyone else has fun."

As for how easy it is to simply make a new character now(supposeduly, I have yet to sign up for the playtest), for me it's less that I can just crap out a new character and go on and more the character I've spent the time building on, possibly weeks or months just suddenly gets instakilled by a bad roll and I have to restart all over again. 
Psh. I hope they make it about 1,000,000,000 gold per resurrection with the average person only having about 250k by the time they hit 20th. i want death to be PAINFUL.


Sure, and let's also riddle each dungeon with trappers, lurkers above, stun jellies, piercers and rust monsters and cave-in triggers on every other stone.




Well, yeh, that's just good dungeon design. Getting through a couple of rooms in a dungeon should make you feel like you've accomplished something, much less a whole dungeon level.  

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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

That's something 4e's Bloodied condition would be handy in: if you fail a save, you're slowed or immobilized, unless you're bloodied – then you turn to stone. Say, wasn't something like that suggested in Daily D&D about a month ago?...



I think they have brought in something similar this edition. For example, if you look at Charm Person or Command, they don't allow a save at all if the target is at 10hp or below. I think your suggestion of having failed saves do something different depending on hp is great, and I'm going to steal it for when I give them feedback.



Please do! Strenght in numbers, not just for hitpoints!
I'm sorry, SoD needs to GTFO.

If you're so freaking wedded to 'Oops, you're dead' as a core game mechanic, go play OSRIC or FATAL.  Getting rid of the one bad roll means make a new character phenomenon was the best thing that ever happened to D&D.

In the spesific case of the medusa, it's borderline, as there is a spesific way to avoid it, but not when surprised.  Take away the removal of the avaidance clause on surprise and it's a reasonable mechanic.  Otherwise, I'd prefer if it dealt damage, say 4-6 on average, and petrified you if you dropped below a certain threshold (Perhaps 0, or 10, or somthing like that) rather then having a character who, not knowing what a medusa is (In character, or in the case of the poorly educated, out of character) did not realize the danger.  Also, I would make it clear that the DM needs to call out that they can look away or make the save, as a particularly bloodthirsty DM (and don't tell me that jackapples like that don't exist, I know better) can simply NOT TELL THE PC ABOUT THE OPTION, and when they complain later say 'Well, why didn't you look away?' all shocked like.

It's a poorly designed and badly thought out mechanic, both in concept and execution, apparently aimed at appealing to people who's taste in gaming has remained rooted in the Gygax Gotcha adventures of the 80's.  I want it gone.  Or I will be.



Yay! Let's kid-gloves the game so no one dies and can feel good about themselves! Guess what, sometimes you just die if you are seeking out dangerous creatures. If you go and try mess with a Rattlesnake in real life, you have a nice chance of getting bitten. You better get saved or you die. Same with a head-on collision on the free-way, maybe you dodge, maybe you don't.
Death is part of life, embrace it.

"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb 1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic. it?" -anon "Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it." -Maxperson
Death is a part of the game, yes. Doesn't mean cheap surprise insta-kills should be the norm.

It's a poorly designed and badly thought out mechanic, both in concept and execution, apparently aimed at appealing to people who's taste in gaming has remained rooted in the Gygax Gotcha adventures of the 80's.  I want it gone.  Or I will be.



Color me flattered.

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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

Death is part of life, embrace it.



No.

I'm playing a game not a life simulator.  Or a death simulator.  If you want hyper leathal gotcha traps, feel free to home brew them up.  I want them NOWHERE NEAR my CORE rules.  AT ALL.  They'd liely make a great module, but that's not the issue here, now is it.  Modules cannot REMOVE rules.  Only add them.

I am not open to compromise on this issue.

Yay! Let's kid-gloves the game so no one dies and can feel good about themselves! Guess what, sometimes you just die if you are seeking out dangerous creatures. If you go and try mess with a Rattlesnake in real life, you have a nice chance of getting bitten. You better get saved or you die. Same with a head-on collision on the free-way, maybe you dodge, maybe you don't.
Death is part of life, embrace it.



If you're bitten by a snake you don't die immediately or shrug it off, depending on your toughness and luck; you gradually go from bite pain to feeling sick, to greater pain, then to gruesome stuff like bleeding from every orifice and then you die. Depending on the venom this can take from days to minutes, but it's usually not "poof, you're dead".

I'd like to point out that a single turn still lasts about 6 seconds.
Death is a part of the game, yes. Doesn't mean cheap surprise insta-kills should be the norm.


I absolutely 100% agree. If they were the NORM, no one would play. They have their place in the game as do holy avengers and vorpal swords. Should everyone get one every adventure? No! Should they be available from time to time? Absolutely.
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb 1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic. it?" -anon "Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it." -Maxperson
Death is part of life, embrace it.



No.

I'm playing a game not a life simulator.  Or a death simulator.  If you want hyper leathal gotcha traps, feel free to home brew them up.  I want them NOWHERE NEAR my CORE rules.  AT ALL.  They'd liely make a great module, but that's not the issue here, now is it.  Modules cannot REMOVE rules.  Only add them.

I am not open to compromise on this issue.




Then, really, keep playing 4th. It won't hurt anyone's feelings, I promise.
Color me flattered.

LIFE CYCLE OF A RULES THREAD

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Thank_Dog wrote:

2Chlorobutanal wrote:
I think that if you have to argue to convince others about the clarity of something, it's probably not as objectively clear as you think.

No, what it means is that some people just like to be obtuse.

Death is a part of the game, yes. Doesn't mean cheap surprise insta-kills should be the norm.


I absolutely 100% agree. If they were the NORM, no one would play. They have their place in the game as do holy avengers and vorpal swords. Should everyone get one every adventure? No! Should they be available from time to time? Absolutely.



Well, glad we seem to be in agreement about this....wait, is it December already?
Psh. I hope they make it about 1,000,000,000 gold per resurrection with the average person only having about 250k by the time they hit 20th. i want death to be PAINFUL.

Okay, whatever.

I'd like you meet my new character, Bob Jr.  It's just an amazing coincidence that he looks and acts the same and has exactly the same abilities and gear as Bob Sr.

No.

I'm playing a game not a life simulator.  Or a death simulator.  If you want hyper leathal gotcha traps, feel free to home brew them up.  I want them NOWHERE NEAR my CORE rules.  AT ALL.  They'd liely make a great module, but that's not the issue here, now is it.  Modules cannot REMOVE rules.  Only add them.

I am not open to compromise on this issue.


How near is "nowhere near"?  If the attacks were only on specific monsters, like the medusa, which you could simply choose not to run, would that suffice?  (You can think of a monster as a mini-module, actually.)

Then, really, keep playing 4th. It won't hurt anyone's feelings, I promise.


Please, that sort of attitude isn't helpful.  Remember what this playtest and this forum are for.
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