Spells and rituals...

Some of the spells just don't feel right. They feel like they should be a ritual. For example, Continual Light. I really feel that the continual light aspect of the spell should be a ritual version of a simple Light spell (which can be cast with an action to produce light fo X number of rounds). Comprehend Languages also feels like it should have some sort of ritual version... probably the exact same effect but with a GP cost, for those who need to be able to cast it on the fly (but did not memorize it on any given morning). 

The 5e of D&D: its like a more balanced version of 2e, but with the character customization frills of 3e and 4e. I love it!

That's how spells use to be in 3.5 and such.  Casters had a list of various spells to pick from, some were attack spells, some debuff/buffs, some just out of combat type spells like comprehend language and whatnot.

The difference with Next is that they made is while a caster can choose spells from a spell list there can also be rituals as well, and yeah more helpful to use for such like comprehend languages and all. 
Death Ward could also use a ritual version with an extended duration...
Some of the spells just don't feel right. They feel like they should be a ritual. For example, Continual Light. I really feel that the continual light aspect of the spell should be a ritual version of a simple Light spell (which can be cast with an action to produce light fo X number of rounds). Comprehend Languages also feels like it should have some sort of ritual version... probably the exact same effect but with a GP cost, for those who need to be able to cast it on the fly (but did not memorize it on any given morning). 



+1 to Comprehend Languages and Continual Light having ritual versions so they don't have to be prepped.
I think all non-minor spells should have a ritual version.

The ritual versions of spells should cost gp, take a lot of time (like 10 minutes) to cast, and have a longer duration effect.

All minor version spells should have a more powerful effect if they are memorized in a regular spell slot.

So say you take magic missile and memorize it in a 1st level spell slot. Instead of 1d4+1, it might go to 1d4+5 or something along those lines.
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Plusplus on more spells working as rituals. Definitely leave the spells how they are though.

I think all non-minor spells should have a ritual version.

The ritual versions of spells should cost gp, take a lot of time (like 10 minutes) to cast, and have a longer duration effect...

Fireball ritual?
I think all non-minor spells should have a ritual version.

My initial thoughts, but how then do you balance healing spells?
Enough people are already complaining about the short rests.
I think all non-minor spells should have a ritual version.

My initial thoughts, but how then do you balance healing spells?
Enough people are already complaining about the short rests.



Its magic. If you can heal 1d8+1 during the thick of combat while dodging attacks and keeping your eye out for enemies, imagine what you could do in a calm serene environment. I'd want to get max healing so 1d8+1 would turn into 9 points.
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I think all non-minor spells should have a ritual version.

My initial thoughts, but how then do you balance healing spells?
Enough people are already complaining about the short rests.



Theoretically if the cost of a healing spell ritual is high enough then this isn't an issue. Noone is going to spend 1000 gold to cast Cure Light Wounds, for instance.
I think all non-minor spells should have a ritual version.

My initial thoughts, but how then do you balance healing spells?
Enough people are already complaining about the short rests.



Theoretically if the cost of a healing spell ritual is high enough then this isn't an issue. Noone is going to spend 1000 gold to cast Cure Light Wounds, for instance.



Yeah, a maximized cure light wounds spell that costs 500gp and takes 4 hours to cast would only be used when the party has plenty of down time anyway and money to burn...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I like things such as continual light and comprehend languages as spells.  A wizard has to choose what he thinks he needs that day, which seems like a choice a vancian wizard would have to make.  The wizards have at-will cantrips, so this makes it even less of a problem.
I like things such as continual light and comprehend languages as spells.  A wizard has to choose what he thinks he needs that day, which seems like a choice a vancian wizard would have to make.  The wizards have at-will cantrips, so this makes it even less of a problem.



It's not a big problem but on the other hand it probably makes sense for Comprehend Languages and Continual Light to be rituals. 

The way I see it ritual casting in DDN is kind of filling the same function as Scribe Scroll in 3e. It's letting the wizard periodically cast a spell that is so situational they'd never normally memorize it, but there's a cost to doing it that way. A main difference being that in 3e you have to pay for and scribe your scrolls in advance, whereas in DDN you are paying to stock up your ritual component cost in advance but you can spend those components on any ritual you want. 
I like things such as continual light and comprehend languages as spells.  A wizard has to choose what he thinks he needs that day, which seems like a choice a vancian wizard would have to make.  The wizards have at-will cantrips, so this makes it even less of a problem.



It's not a big problem but on the other hand it probably makes sense for Comprehend Languages and Continual Light to be rituals. 

The way I see it ritual casting in DDN is kind of filling the same function as Scribe Scroll in 3e. It's letting the wizard periodically cast a spell that is so situational they'd never normally memorize it, but there's a cost to doing it that way. A main difference being that in 3e you have to pay for and scribe your scrolls in advance, whereas in DDN you are paying to stock up your ritual component cost in advance but you can spend those components on any ritual you want. 


I don't think it makes sense.  They seem near the same in power and scope as burning hands, sleep, or shield.  So why would they be cast differently?  It seems to be in the same ballpark of power, I don't understand the arbitrary distinction to have comprehend languages or continual light be rituals.
I am a proponent of all 'spells' being rituals.  Then there can be certain utilitarian (perhaps even class and/or feat-specific) rituals which store individual rituals in various forms.  For example:
A ritual (or more likely a series of rituals) which stores a 'spell' into the mind of a spellcaster for later quick-use application (such as in combat).

I like the idea that a costly ritually-cast evocation-type 'spell' could do "maximum damage" when cast in ritual form.  For example:
The ubiquitous fireball might, in its fundamental form, manifest as a prolonged-duration ball of fire, which might inflict 30 points of fire damage on anyone foolish enough to walk into it or remain in the area where it is being evoked!  In its combat or quick-release form, it might have a range of damage from 5 to 30 points (5d6) and disappear in an instantaneous flash.  "Vancian"-type casters who have prepared this 'spell' by ritually storing it in their brains could easily be allotted a number of "free" uses of these implanted rituals which is equal to their traditional spell slot allotments.  Voila!

This is just an example of how to bridge together different flavors of spellcasting through ONE over-arching system:  the Ritual.  There is no reason why this cannot be hidden from the player (if desired) in a basic set of core rules, but I DO believe that it is MUCH better to design it in from the start!

-DS
I'd also like to see Comprehend Languages and Continual Light as rituals. Continual Light should have a non-ritual option that lasts 24 hours and doesn't cost any gold when used as a spell.

I'd also like the see the ritual versions of spells have certain advantages over the non-ritual versions. Maybe a ritual alarm lasts 24 hours instead of 8, for example. This makes the gold cost easier to swallow and also gives people a reason to use the ritual version of a spell even if they have prepared it.
Anything that is permanent should be a ritual.  In fact, anything with a duration much longer than an average combat should probably be a ritual. 

I would place the duration mark at 1 hour for ease of use; quick cast combat spells simply lack the power to last longer, and need more extensive preparation and casting.

Using the 3 pillar approach (Combat, Exploration, Interaction?), only Combat spells need be Vancian.  The rest can remain rituals.  4e was fairly correct about that--but it needed to not marginalize the rituals so much. 

They shouldn't be so costly (give some limited free uses per day, or let a Focus stand in for per use costs), and many should have casting times more like 1-5 minutes.  Having the whole party wait 10+ minutes eating cheese and crackers before you can move to the next chamber or take the next step in the adventure is just dumb, and another reason that rituals were underused.  Many were also fairly underpowered.
I like things such as continual light and comprehend languages as spells.  A wizard has to choose what he thinks he needs that day, which seems like a choice a vancian wizard would have to make.  The wizards have at-will cantrips, so this makes it even less of a problem.



It's not a big problem but on the other hand it probably makes sense for Comprehend Languages and Continual Light to be rituals. 

The way I see it ritual casting in DDN is kind of filling the same function as Scribe Scroll in 3e. It's letting the wizard periodically cast a spell that is so situational they'd never normally memorize it, but there's a cost to doing it that way. A main difference being that in 3e you have to pay for and scribe your scrolls in advance, whereas in DDN you are paying to stock up your ritual component cost in advance but you can spend those components on any ritual you want. 


I don't think it makes sense.  They seem near the same in power and scope as burning hands, sleep, or shield.  So why would they be cast differently?  It seems to be in the same ballpark of power, I don't understand the arbitrary distinction to have comprehend languages or continual light be rituals.



The distinction would be that burning hands, sleep and shield are instaneous and short duration combat spells whereas comprehend languages and continual light are primarily long lasting out of combat effects. Typically it seems natural to think that out of combat utility spells would have a ritualized version of the spell since they are cast out of combat when you have plenty of time to do the ritual and since they tend to be more situational so are not as useful to memorize on a daily basis.