Armor and Weapon Stats for pregens


We're playing the playtest material tonight, but in looking over the provided PCs I can't figure out what the designers were thinking.

I'm playing the Fighter, and I note that my chainmail gives me an AC of 15. However, I could wear a chain shirt instead, get 14 + Dex Mod, have the same AC at 15, and be wearing light armor rather than taking all the disads of heavy armor. Also carrying a DEX-driven Light Crossbow instead of a STR-driven Heavy Crossbow. Odd.

The Thief pregen is also purposefully underarmored, wearing leather instead of a chain shirt. I presume so that he will not have an AC of 17 and outperform the Fighter

Weird.
Maybe the fighter got his armor from his father when he left home, and the thief couldn't afford a chain shirt, or didn't want the extra weight, or just thought the armor looked cooler at the store (little did he know it wasn't name brand, Praaada is a cheap goblin knock-off.)
First off, I just want to say I really like the simplicity and feel of the armor and weapons in the D&D Next playtest.  That said, there are mechanics to balance... but the thematic "feel" is spot on for me.

So, I'm guessing that "enchanted" weapons and armor won't just get bonuses to AC or to hit & damage.  The way they priced the armor seems to suggest PCs eventually buy or find the higher mundane armors, rather than enchanting-up.  Also, note that masterworking for weapons is just +1 damage and is not even noted for armors.

Just as with 3.x, the lower light armors don't show much reason for use- go chain shirt or nothing at all if you have a mental stat to AC.  Similarly, medium armor has always been a weird category; either you go really light or full heavy armor tank and no one uses medium.

They tried to put four armor per category.  What if we only used three per category and left "materials" out of it (or even only two)?  On the topic of masterworked, could we just say that "masterworking" armor means making it out of better materials; mithril, adamantine, or whatever?  Masterwork could vary depending on material and category.

Actually, as I get into crunching out, I don't like Light, medum, heavy.  I seem to want 4 categories: Leather, Chain/Ring, Scale/Splint, and Heavy/Plate.  Remember, there is an implicit category of 5; some mages and monks wont even wear armor.

Ver 1.1
LEATHER ARMOR
Leather, 15GP, 12 + Dex
Reinforced Hide, 125GP, 13 + Dex
Leafweave Leather, 1000GP, 14 + Dex, Special: advantage to hide in forests (chosen terrain?)

RINGED ARMOR
Chain Shirt, 50GP, 14 + 1/2 Dex
Ringmail, 400GP, 15 + 1/2 Dex
Elven Chain, 3200GP, 16 + 1/2 Dex, half weight & no stealth disadvantage

SCALE ARMOR
Scale, 75GP, 15 + 1/2 Dex
Splint, 600 GP, 16 + 1/2 Dex
Dragon Scale, 4800 GP, 17 + 1/2 Dex, Special: elemental resistance 5 of dragon type

PLATE ARMOR 
Banded, 125GP, 17
Plate, 1000 GP, 18
Dwarven Plate, 8000 GP, 19, Special: prevent's up to 3 weapon damage per round from a single attack

Is this any better? So, you basically should only be to afford the "starting" armors of Leather, Chain Shirt, Scale, or Banded.  I know there's only a 1pt AC difference between Ringed and Scale armors, but both are so similar with the 1/2 Dex.  I always disliked Chain Shirt being a light armor; it's the only metal one.  Remember, 4E resolved this with 6 armor types; this is kind of a slimmed down version of that. 

We're playing the playtest material tonight, but in looking over the provided PCs I can't figure out what the designers were thinking.

I'm playing the Fighter, and I note that my chainmail gives me an AC of 15. However, I could wear a chain shirt instead, get 14 + Dex Mod, have the same AC at 15, and be wearing light armor rather than taking all the disads of heavy armor. Also carrying a DEX-driven Light Crossbow instead of a STR-driven Heavy Crossbow. Odd.

The Thief pregen is also purposefully underarmored, wearing leather instead of a chain shirt. I presume so that he will not have an AC of 17 and outperform the Fighter

Weird.


I assume this is due to how poor 1st level players are. 75 gp for Chain Shirt is too expensive for most players when you still need gear and a weapon.
I'd get multiple spears instead of crossbow personally (since drawing is free action, but loading crossbow isn't)
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I've talked this over with the people in my group, and the solution they came up with was to simply add a bit of Damage Reduction to heavier armor.

Not much. Something like DR/1 for the chain shirt, maybe DR/2 for heavy armor.

It really helps the heavily armored people out, and gives some real benefit to people who are using heavy armor, instead of being basically pointless.
Yeah, there's a lot of problems with armor. Adding DR is a popular solution, and the math on it checks out well. I would go higher than one or two though - up to four on non-magical plate. I don't know about adamantine since we don't have much to test against at this point.
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From a simplicity and long-term advancement standpoint, I'm not a fan of DR for armor.  But, in small doses and without high progression it's okay.  I mean, trying to mechanically show how lighter armor characters are hit less but heavier armorer characters prevent more damage seems okay.  I mean, which is supposed to be "better"" an elven dex fighter/archer in mithril/elven chain or a dwarven fighter/defender in adamantine plate?  I think the answer is neither; they are both good in different ways.  Dwarf can soak more damage and better against more foes; Elf can evade htis better and has less disadvantage as per skills or speed penalties.  And I think that really fits with the thematic feel of the game.

MASTERWORKED & ENHANCEMENTS
Before seeing the playtest, I had conceived a system where weapon/armor/item enhancements only went up every 10 levels and further masterworking beyond +1 was possible.  Weapon enhancements only enhanced damage and broke magical DR better; further masterworking si what upgraded the bonuses to hit.
  But, if we're trying to avoid masterwork weapons adding to hit, maybe we could have masterwork for damage and enhancement for breaking magical DR and enchantments like holy, flaming, speed, etc.  This way, PCs can somewhat control (by smithing/reforging/further masterworking) their own gear to higher bonuses to damage, but they'll still also want to enchant it to fight better monsters.
Something like:
+1 Masterworked Weapon, +500GP, 1st level +
+2 Masterworked Weapon, +2500GP, 11th level + 
+3 Masterworked Weapon, +125000GP, 21th level + 
+4 Masterworked Weapon, +625000GP, 31th level +  

For enchanting, maybe:
"Magical" Weapon, +1000GP, 1st level, breaks magical DR & needed for other enchantments 
"Flaming" Weapon, +5000GP, 6th level, add d4 fire damage & on/off entire weapon strikes as fire
"Keen" Weapon, +5000GP, 6th level, critical on 19 or 20
"Holy" Weapon, +25000GP, 11th level, add d6 holy damage & entire weapon strikes as holy
"[Creature] Bane" Weapon, +25000 11th level,  penetrates any DR & +d12 damage

... So, a 13th level Paladin might have +2 masterworked Magical Holy Flaming Longsword.  With a +3 strength mod, he'd strike for d8 + d6 holy + d4 fire + 5

ARMOR WITH DR
Ver 1.2
LEATHER ARMOR
Leather, 15GP, 12 + Dex
Reinforced Hide, 125GP, 13 + Dex
Leafweave Leather, 1000GP, 14 + Dex, Special: advantage to hide in forests (chosen terrain?)

RINGED ARMOR
Chain Shirt, 50GP, 14 + 1/2 Dex, DR 1/-
Ringmail, 400GP, 15 + 1/2 Dex, DR 1/-
Elven Chain, 3200GP, 16 + 1/2 Dex, DR 1/-, half weight & no stealth disadvantage

SCALE ARMOR
Scale, 75GP, 15 + 1/2 Dex, DR 2/-
Splint, 600 GP, 16 + 1/2 Dex, DR 2/-
Dragon Scale, 4800 GP, 17 + 1/2 Dex, DR 2/-, Special: elemental resistance 5 of dragon type

PLATE ARMOR 
Banded, 125GP, 17, DR 3/-, -5ft speed
Plate, 1000 GP, 18, DR 3/-, -5ft speed
Dwarven Plate, 8000 GP, 19, DR 4/-, -5ft speed, Special: 1 extra point of DR

I assume this is due to how poor 1st level players are. 75 gp for Chain Shirt is too expensive for most players when you still need gear and a weapon.



Chainmail (the inferior armor choice for my pregen PC) is 100gp, while the chain shirt is 75gp, so the better choice was actually cheaper, believe it or not.

Not really a serious design complaint, but just a funny nitpick: Another interesting cost-difference thing was the mace, club and torch, all of which are identical in combat (1d6 bludgeon). The mace costs 6gp, the club 5sp, and the torch 5cp. Strangely, the very best weapon of the lot is the torch, because it is identical in combat ("treat as a club") but it does fire or bludgeoning damage.

And here are the results of our foray into the Caves of Chaos. We reset all hp and abilities between each of these encounters, to try each one as if it were our first encounter of the day. These are the encounters provided with the playtest. We used the Cleric (of Moradin), Fighter, Wizard, and Rogue.

Opponent: 6 kobolds. Then joined by 3 more kobolds on round 2, and an ogre on round 3.
Results: Cleric dead at the start of round 2, we ran on round 3, the fighter died trying to escape.

Opponent: 6 orcs.
Result: We won, but the Fighter died.

Opponent: 13 stirges.
Result: We won, but the Wizard died.

Opponent: 1 Medusa
Result: We won, but 2 party members were petrified. To be fair, we only won because the medusa was chained to a wall.

So there you go.
Was there any errata to fix the dwarf fighter weapon damage? The pregen sheet shows 2d6 for the great axe, but the how to play lists it as 1d12...not a good impression on their proofreading skills.

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Was there any errata to fix the dwarf fighter weapon damage? The pregen sheet shows 2d6 for the great axe, but the how to play lists it as 1d12...not a good impression on their proofreading skills.



You're assuming they made a mistake. You shouldn't expect them to itemize everything in a playtest document, especially the first one.
Was there any errata to fix the dwarf fighter weapon damage? The pregen sheet shows 2d6 for the great axe, but the how to play lists it as 1d12...not a good impression on their proofreading skills.

 I noticed this too Mithrus. They want us to do a playtest with these characters yet the damage stats are wrong for both the fighters Greataxe and the cleric of Moradins Warhammer. My players want to know what dice damage to use and im not sure what to say when one is bigger than the other. Do i concede to the powergamer who wants to do ultra damage or do i go with whats printed in the players guide ? I fear if I make the wrong choice, my decision will affect the balance of the playtest and the validity of our results.

 Also where are these additional bonuses to attack and damage coming from. The fighters attack bonus on the Greataxe reads (+6) but his strength modifier reads as (+3) ??? Where did this extra 3 come from and weirder still the (+7) extra on damage. I feel like i'm missing something here. Am I or is this just lousy proofreading ?
Weapon Focus gives +2 damage, but....I don't know where the remaining 2 damage comes from (3 from STR, 2 from Focus....) 

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Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

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Defenders: We ARE the wall!

 

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57019168 wrote:
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Was there any errata to fix the dwarf fighter weapon damage? The pregen sheet shows 2d6 for the great axe, but the how to play lists it as 1d12...not a good impression on their proofreading skills.




I'm not sure that's a mistake.  The three weapon-using characters *all* have a die one type larger on their "signature" weapons.
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Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.
Was there any errata to fix the dwarf fighter weapon damage? The pregen sheet shows 2d6 for the great axe, but the how to play lists it as 1d12...not a good impression on their proofreading skills.




I'm not sure that's a mistake.  The three weapon-using characters *all* have a die one type larger on their "signature" weapons.



In Mike Mearl's newest blog post "Playtest: First Round Overview" he confirms that racial proficiencies increase the damage dice to the next step.  It would've been nice to know that from the get go, but whatever.

Huh. That's kinda cool. Little bit pigeonholing (all dwarves use axes and hammers! all elves use bows and longswords!), but kinda cool nonetheless.

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Defenders: We ARE the wall!

 

I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D.

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.