Healing is still not gritty enough...

So, I was really liking the ruleset till I got to this line (paraphrased, due to the playtesting agreement): You regain all your hitpoints with a long rest. So, you are saying everyone heals up after a night's rest? So, there is no such thing as lasting injuries? I am not a fan of that! I think that an extended rest should return all your Hit Dice (which it does), but it should not actually heal any of your hit points. If you want you can take a short rest first thing in the morning to heal some of your hit points by expending some of your hit dice...

The 5e of D&D: its like a more balanced version of 2e, but with the character customization frills of 3e and 4e. I love it!

So, I was really liking the ruleset till I got to this line: "At the end of a long rest, you regain all your lost hit points and all your Hit Dice you expanded before the rest." So, you are saying everyone heals up after a night's rest? So, there is no such thing as lasting injuries? I am not a fan of that! I think that an extended rest should return all your Hit Dice, but it should not actually heal any of your hit points. If you want you can take a short rest first thing in the morning to heal some of your hit points by expending some of your hit dice...


I felt the same way.  One nights sleep fixing every instance of hovering on deaths door doesn't seem to give the DM the flexability to give that gritty feeling of you just survived a huge dungeon crawl and now its going to take a while to get back up to full health.  Maybe it was just the way we played /house rules or something but our old campaigns would use this time to explore the city, craft items, gather lore, etc while they rested.  While they did sometimes when plot asked for it, it didn't require the cleric to max out on healing spells to rush the group back into a fight either. 
Yea, I agree, at the most it should be is


A) 1 HP per level per long rest

or

B) Con modifier X level per long rest (if no positive con mod exsists then use A)
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HP are abstract. They usually do not represent literal life-threatening injuries and have not as long as I can remember.
HP are abstract. They usually do not represent literal life-threatening injuries and have not as long as I can remember.



Which does not change a word of what I said, nor my playtest feedback. 

So, I was really liking the ruleset till I got to this line: "At the end of a long rest, you regain all your lost hit points and all your Hit Dice you expanded before the rest." So, you are saying everyone heals up after a night's rest? So, there is no such thing as lasting injuries? I am not a fan of that! I think that an extended rest should return all your Hit Dice, but it should not actually heal any of your hit points. If you want you can take a short rest first thing in the morning to heal some of your hit points by expending some of your hit dice...




Difficult one. It's a fine line between keeping an adventure moving and artificially taking several days rest in the middle of a dungeon. I don't like the idea of a total free heal after a long rest. As stated above it removes the feeling of attrition  needed in some dungeons. However the rest, learn spells, then instantly casting all your healing spells requiring yet another rest straight away didn't really work either. Something  in the middle is needed perhaps based on the characters constitution stat.  
From Mearls' twitter:
"Final old school suggestion - long rest gives back level + Con mod hit points." 
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I think the only solution to keep everyone happy would be an HP and wound system. HP are easily regained but wounds take time to heal. Once you lose all your hp or when you take a crit, you suffer wounds. Maybe you could have a pool of "wound points" equal to your CON score. When you suffer wound damage you have to make a CON check equal to 10+1/2 damage dealt or suffer a wound (maybe causes you to be slowed, dazed, unconscious, or at a disadvantage until treated). Wounds points could be recovered by magic or the heal skill, or regained naturally at a rate of a few per day.

Just a suggestion.
From Mearls' twitter:
"Final old school suggestion - long rest gives back level + Con mod hit points." 



So sickly wizards regain all their hp quickly, but fighters and other tough characters have to take a week to recover. No thanks.
I think the only solution to keep everyone happy would be an HP and wound system. HP are easily regained but wounds take time to heal. Once you lose all your hp or when you take a crit, you suffer wounds. Maybe you could have a pool of "wound points" equal to your CON score. When you suffer wound damage you have to make a CON check equal to 10+1/2 damage dealt or suffer a wound (maybe causes you to be slowed, dazed, unconscious, or at a disadvantage until treated). Wounds points could be recovered by magic or the heal skill, or regained naturally at a rate of a few per day.

Just a suggestion.




No thanks. I don't need anything quite so overcomplicated. All they need to do is remove healing from the long rest. You already get back all your hit dice. If you need to, you can short rest and heal pretty much all your hit points by expending all your hit dice. You just won't get to heal, naturally, any more that day... big deal. That sort of resource management, and attrition, should be part of the game. Eventually, your party should have to think about whether it makes sense to turn back or not. 

My old-school suggestion would be just to remove the healing from a long rest.  You'd still get your HD back, but then you'd have to burn them again to heal more.  I don't think healing needs to be grittier, but it's a reasonable option for those who want it.  In the end, I think the HD mechanic may become an option (an option that I like) instead of a base assumption.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

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If healing is too stingy, we'll all be forced to rely on healing potions, wands, staves, etc.  Maybe that's ok.  

Maybe after a long rest, the best healer in the party rolls a check, and the check result determines how many hp adventurers get back.  

Natural "1" gains no healing
Over 1 gains 10%
DC 11 gains 20%
DC 15 gains 50%
Natural "20" gains 100%

Just an idea. 

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If healing is too stingy, we'll all be forced to rely on healing potions, wands, staves, etc.  Maybe that's ok.  

Maybe after a long rest, the best healer in the party rolls a check, and the check result determines how many hp adventurers get back.  

Natural "1" gains no healing
Over 1 gains 10%
DC 11 gains 20%
DC 15 gains 50%
Natural "20" gains 100%

Just an idea. 



I don't mind because it makes more sense to be honest.

This isn't a game where everyone runs around with nerf bats and they just beat the crap out of each other until they grow tired.

Going back to full only after a long rest seems like it's just there for game balance and nothing else.

A friend's idea was after a long rest you can roll up to all of your HD for the new day. Any dice that roll greater than averate are not taken out of that days HD rolls. So if you are a 5th level fighter and you are seriously injured you wake up and roll 5d12. Each die result that is 7+ is not subtracted from that days HD to roll. Seems kinda cool to me.
HP are abstract. They usually do not represent literal life-threatening injuries and have not as long as I can remember.



As long as I've played D&D (going back to 1983), hit points do exactly that. When you lose enough of them, you die. I'd call that life-threatening. I've never thought of hit points as being overly abstract. They are exactly representative of how much damage you can take before you die (or at least fall unconscious, most likely on your way to dying).

I don't like the idea of the long rest at all. It's way too powerful. I can deal with it 're-setting' your hit dice from a short rest, or allowing your Con modifier in recovered hit points, but not a complete heal.

How about giving clerics a healing 'ability', similar to a spell, but with a limited number of uses per day, based on level or Wisdom? That would allow them to memorize other spells or memorize more healing spells, if they want.
"Death smiles at us all. All a man can do is smile back."
HP are abstract. They usually do not represent literal life-threatening injuries and have not as long as I can remember.

Actually, "How to play" is pretty definitive on what a Hit Point actually means, or at least what it's abtracting.  Go read the end of Page 12 again.
Actual "wounds" don't happen until zero.

So, I was really liking the ruleset till I got to this line: "At the end of a long rest, you regain all your lost hit points and all your Hit Dice you expanded before the rest." So, you are saying everyone heals up after a night's rest? So, there is no such thing as lasting injuries? I am not a fan of that! I think that an extended rest should return all your Hit Dice, but it should not actually heal any of your hit points. If you want you can take a short rest first thing in the morning to heal some of your hit points by expending some of your hit dice...


I felt that the healing rules were perfect for the stated function of HP. I actually really liked that a long rest restored a character's vigor and allowed him to bandage minor wounds. That said, I felt that major injuries were mostly absent in the mechanics of the rules, if not the descriptions.

However, like most things in Next thus far, the solution is a simple addition of systems, which is extrodinarily easy to do the way the rules are set up. What I plan to do is introduce an injury system built on top of the conditions system. Whenever a character is dropped to 0 hit points by lethal damage, they take an injury relating to the kind of attack which dropped them, which is a condition with mechanical detriments and a listed time to heal. Perhaps powerful magic can wipe it away in a matter of moments, but otherwise you must heal it naturally, if possible.
Adding to that, I could throw on a series of abilities or effects perpahs tied to the amount of damage taken - maybe a blow that removed half of your HP or more?  - that may also add injury conditions. 

Seamless, easy to impliment, and adds that gritty feel to injury and long healing times for serious wounds that I'm looking for.
I don't feel that such a system should be in the core rules, I feel they're fine just as they are. Quick and abstract. This allows us to throw a rules module on top for the specific feel we're looking for, whether it's done on the fly at the table, as a house rule, or in an official rules module released by Wizards.
Lekyaira has a point.  Modular design will give rise to many interesting options.

In my 4e game, I have a house rule about injury.  If you score a critical hit (or if the creature scores one on you), you take a wound.  The wound applies a -2 modifier to all of your actions until you are healed by magic. If a PC or Monster is ever wounded twice he or she just drops (0 hp) and begins to die. I guess with 5e a wound could make a PC or monster suffer disadvantage until healed by magic.   This way, hit points really just represent exhaustion and minor wounds so it is ok to regain them all after an 8 hour sleep.

 

A Brave Knight of WTF - "Wielder of the Sword of Balance"

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 

HP are abstract. They usually do not represent literal life-threatening injuries and have not as long as I can remember.

Actually, "How to play" is pretty definitive on what a Hit Point actually means, or at least what it's abtracting.  Go read the end of Page 12 again.
Actual "wounds" don't happen until zero.



I think the use of the term 'wounds' is what is abstract here. It sounds like by 'wound' you mean below negative hit points only, which I disagree with. I think any hit from a weapon or spell or fall that causes my character to lose hit points is a wound.
"Death smiles at us all. All a man can do is smile back."
HP are abstract. They usually do not represent literal life-threatening injuries and have not as long as I can remember.

Actually, "How to play" is pretty definitive on what a Hit Point actually means, or at least what it's abtracting.  Go read the end of Page 12 again.
Actual "wounds" don't happen until zero.



I think the use of the term 'wounds' is what is abstract here. It sounds like by 'wound' you mean below negative hit points only, which I disagree with. I think any hit from a weapon or spell or fall that causes my character to lose hit points is a wound.

Fair enough.
"Injury" doesn't happen until zero.

I've never felt D&D was "gritty".

Shadowrun is "gritty".  Warhammer Fantasy RP/Dark Heresy for 40K. Also "gritty".

Any game where I have more than fifty hit points... can take more than a handful of attacks from a dragon (go fight a crocodile - see how you do) - and where resurrection is plentiful.. was never meant to be gritty.

Anyway - this isn't even something that "House Ruling" would involve any work. If removing the full health after a long rest would solve the problem... then just run with it.
Well regardless of what hp is akin to I like to run a survival oriented game and sometimes people die.So you can guess what i will be house-ruling if I by the game lol.
TamRad: Have you ever tried any other RPGs? So many others do survival better than D&D.
From Mearls' twitter:
"Final old school suggestion - long rest gives back level + Con mod hit points." 



So sickly wizards regain all their hp quickly, but fighters and other tough characters have to take a week to recover. No thanks.




I agree with you completely.  Life is hard enough without having to always worry about HP.
I agree that resting should not allow you to heal all your HP.

 If it's true that half your HP is real damage then why not only half per day of rest?




I've never felt D&D was "gritty".

Shadowrun is "gritty".  Warhammer Fantasy RP/Dark Heresy for 40K. Also "gritty".

Any game where I have more than fifty hit points... can take more than a handful of attacks from a dragon (go fight a crocodile - see how you do) - and where resurrection is plentiful.. was never meant to be gritty.

Anyway - this isn't even something that "House Ruling" would involve any work. If removing the full health after a long rest would solve the problem... then just run with it.


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I agree that resting should not allow you to heal all your HP.

 If it's true that half your HP is real damage then why not only half per day of rest?






Where are you getting the "half your HP is real damage" thing? That's definitely NOT in the rules, nor any version of the rules of D&D, ever. What the playtest rules state is that under half hit points you have "acquired a few cuts and bruises." That's not to mean that every suddenly every time you get hit under half hit points you get a cut or bruise; it means that your general state at less than fifty percent hit points is "you have a few cuts and bruises." It's abstract.

And a big "no" to slowing down healing. Getting back all your HP after a rest is great; it means that you won't see players walking around with big sacks full of healing potions, or other similar meta-gamey nonsense. And since hit points are abstract and mostly meant to be a measure of fatique, it makes little sense to not be rested after a rest.
You are right, healing is alot less gritty than 4e.
We have unlimited magic healing again. Doesnt matter how many acid baths you take as long as the cleric spell slots and wand hold out you can take another lap. 

The one night full HD and hit points is simply a convenience due to the existence of unlimited magic healing because with it, the most serious grievous wounds lasts for all of one night of rest for the cleric to get his spells back and bam, picture of prefect health again. And then another long rest for the cleric to prepare more useful/fun spells to continue the adventure. So in reality, the longest downtime the party suffers from mortal wounds is two nights.

Other point: When you are talking about recover time measured in days or even weeks from a dagger in the kidneys with zero lasting effects (aside: if anyone could tell me when/if D&D has ever done lingering wounds other than magic curses I would appreciate it) you are already not based in reality at all. One night or one week recovery from a dragon using you as a chew toy are both equally absurd  from medical/reality point of view. Since the recovery rules cant simulate reality, they should be designed from another perpestive and WOTC picked the option that expediates game play. 
From Mearls' twitter:
"Final old school suggestion - long rest gives back level + Con mod hit points." 



So sickly wizards regain all their hp quickly, but fighters and other tough characters have to take a week to recover. No thanks.

The gap in wizard and fighter hp isn't that big in the playtest.  Should this point is invalid.
From Mearls' twitter:
"Final old school suggestion - long rest gives back level + Con mod hit points." 



So sickly wizards regain all their hp quickly, but fighters and other tough characters have to take a week to recover. No thanks.

The gap in wizard and fighter hp isn't that big in the playtest.  Should this point is invalid.


Just because it isn't noticeable yet doesn't make it invalid.  That's like saying someone shouldn't worry about their diabetes because they haven't lost a limb yet.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

They are exactly representative of how much damage you can take before you die (or at least fall unconscious, most likely on your way to dying).



Uh...how, exactly?  Granted, when you lose them all you fall unconscious and when you take -10 (or negative Surge) you permanently die.  However, in the meantime your level 20 fighter isn't standing there and taking 18 stab wounds before his hp total gives out and he finally slumps to the ground.  The representative take on hp (an interpretation that, I believe, was described in the 2nd edition core books) takes the hp value to mean how able your character is to defend himself in a fight.  High hp values mean you know how to not get hit or you can roll with the punches.  Low hp values mean you never developed much combat savvy.  Mechanically, they accomplish the exact same thing.  Flavor wise, well, literal hp is Marv in Sin City, representative hp is most other action heroes. 

On topic, it seems that this is something that could easily be houseruled if you really, really love to have weeks between your PCs getting anything done (or a few days where all the PCs do is wake up, use their HD, have the cleric spam his spells, then go back to sleep; sounds pretty unheroic to me).  Not my cup o' tea, but some people dig that style.  It helps that I take a representative view of hp and so have no problem with people sleeping off their fatigue and refreshing their combat savvy.
I think the only solution to keep everyone happy would be an HP and wound system. HP are easily regained but wounds take time to heal. Once you lose all your hp or when you take a crit, you suffer wounds. Maybe you could have a pool of "wound points" equal to your CON score. When you suffer wound damage you have to make a CON check equal to 10+1/2 damage dealt or suffer a wound (maybe causes you to be slowed, dazed, unconscious, or at a disadvantage until treated). Wounds points could be recovered by magic or the heal skill, or regained naturally at a rate of a few per day.

Just a suggestion.



  The Dragon Age game had an interesting mechanic where you were fine until you hit 0HP, which is when you were actually incapacitated.  You could survive until the end of the battle, but you would have a permenant "injury" from it.  These were things like a penalty to movement (leg injuries), a penalty to attacks (arm injuries), or spells/saves (head injuries). No matter how much HP you recovered from spells, no matter how many healing potions you chugged, the aggravating injuries would remain.  You had to get them treated- which usually just meant a healing kit.

...but in D&D, you could say that such an injury takes days/weeks to heal.  

   What I like about this is that it can easily be added/subtracted from an existing HP system for a grittier/cinematic feel.
Sign me up for NOT liking the rest and gain all hp back camp.

Grittier is better.  Resource management during the adventure should be part of the challenge.
I'm fully for recovering all HP with a long rest. I don't like gritty games and like even less bags of healing potions or 5-minute workdays.

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I understand that not everyone likes gritty games. However, I do and other players I know do as well. I think that recovering all your hit points after an extended rest detracts from the sense of danger. While some of you may disagree, which is fine, we have to take into account that dndnext aims to include all players and playstyles, and I seriously think that full healing after extended rests should be optional and not in the core. Honestly, I seriously disliked it when I read about it, and hope it is not in the core, which does not mean that I don't want it to appear in the books, only as a module. I think players should manage resources knowing how to plan their exploration in dungeons, yes, even acquiring potions, etc., not relying on a rule according to which sleeping miracuolously heals all their injuries. I am all for natural healing, albeit slower
The problem with the mechanic is you determine your total hp by rolling your HD or using your Con modifier whichever is higher, but when healing with hit dice you heal hp equal to HD roll + Con modifier. For all character classes most of the time (average rolls), this will result in more self healing potential than total hit points, with a 10 minute short rest. There is not a better resource management killer than this.

Take wizard for example. She has a hit dice of d4. If she has also +2 modifier from constitution, she has an average hp gain of +3 per level.  Now this wizard also has healing potential of 2.5 + 2 = 4.5 per level. Clearly 1.5 times her total hp. This effectively means she keeps 150% of her total hp in reserve to use for a day. Not to mention the full replenishment of it at the end of a long rest.

So why deal with all these dice counts and calculations? Simply inflate the PCs' hp gain per level by multiplying it by 2.5, instead of giving them a short rest option. It comes to the same result at the end of the day. Ah, they should thread on death's door sometimes by falling unconcious. But with the dying rules, it is already next to impossible to die.
I understand that not everyone likes gritty games. However, I do and other players I know do as well. I think that recovering all your hit points after an extended rest detracts from the sense of danger. While some of you may disagree, which is fine, we have to take into account that dndnext aims to include all players and playstyles, and I seriously think that full healing after extended rests should be optional and not in the core. Honestly, I seriously disliked it when I read about it, and hope it is not in the core, which does not mean that I don't want it to appear in the books, only as a module. I think players should manage resources knowing how to plan their exploration in dungeons, yes, even acquiring potions, etc., not relying on a rule according to which sleeping miracuolously heals all their injuries. I am all for natural healing, albeit slower



I mostly agree, especially given the fact that I often have parties without Clerics and I like them to get inventive in order to survive. However, I reserve judgment until I have seen this in action, since it is allowed only once per day and nearly all damage for weapons and spells has been upgraded (Warhammer 1d8 - thank you WotC!).

My personal feeling is that I wouldn't mind if HP goes all/most of the way up after a full rest if it weren't still so hard to die.


Afterall, when a character falls 'unconcious' that's when he's actually taken a real physical blow, instead of just draining his will/endurance/luck etc...


I don't mind negative HP, but when it starts getting to negative HP going into the double digits with saving throws etc... then I feel that that kind of healing gets a bit silly.

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Yeah, I agree. regain all your hit dice but not your all hit points.  If you want to spend all your hit dice immediately on waking to recover your hits, that's fine but you know that you are going to have to be careful for the rest of that day because you're out of any further natural healling.

My personal feeling is that I wouldn't mind if HP goes all/most of the way up after a full rest if it weren't still so hard to die.


Afterall, when a character falls 'unconcious' that's when he's actually taken a real physical blow, instead of just draining his will/endurance/luck etc...


I don't mind negative HP, but when it starts getting to negative HP going into the double digits with saving throws etc... then I feel that that kind of healing gets a bit silly.



in older editions you would lose only 1HP per round of being unconsious and bleeding.
now you lose 1D6
 
a constituation 12 xharacter that ended up at -1 HP would have 9 rounds of lying around before dying.
now there is a changce he will be dead in 2 rounds.

 
From Mearls' twitter:
"Final old school suggestion - long rest gives back level + Con mod hit points." 



So sickly wizards regain all their hp quickly, but fighters and other tough characters have to take a week to recover. No thanks.


Makes sense to me.  The tough characters are recovering from injuries that would have killed a sickly wizard.