Copper, Silver coins and the Economy

I just wanted to make a few observations about the value of items and the amount of treasure from encounters in the test material.


I noticed most weapons and armour in the test material are valued in gold. I strongly feel that at the beginning of their careers, adventurers would be using copper and some silver. I think basic adventuring gear should be priced at a few copper pieces, basic weapons and armour at a few silver. Perhaps give a PC 50 silver to start off with. I would simply suggesting dividing the cost of weapons by 10. The price of general equipment seems ok to me.


When a PC starts with 100gp to spend, finding 10cp on some kobolds is pretty meaningless.


In the Cave of Chaos adventure, some monsters dropped copper, some silver, which I think is fine, but there was some electrum and some gold and even platinum in the adept's chambers. I would imagine gold would start to appear perhaps level 4 or 5, or from the hoard of a special monster. I think there is too big a disparity between the level of treasure from the monsters at the start of the adventure, to those at the end.


So for example, perhaps the kobolds at the start of the adventure have around 10sp, but the medusa at the end might have items worth 250sp.


So the bottom line: Adventurers should be using (and finding) copper and silver coins at low levels.


I just wanted to make a few observations about the value of items and the amount of treasure from encounters in the test material.


I noticed most weapons and armour in the test material are valued in gold. I strongly feel that at the beginning of their careers, adventurers would be using copper and some silver. I think basic adventuring gear should be priced at a few copper pieces, basic weapons and armour at a few silver. Perhaps give a PC 50 silver to start off with. I would simply suggesting dividing the cost of weapons by 10. The price of general equipment seems ok to me.


When a PC starts with 100gp to spend, finding 10cp on some kobolds is pretty meaningless.


In the Cave of Chaos adventure, some monsters dropped copper, some silver, which I think is fine, but there was some electrum and some gold and even platinum in the adept's chambers. I would imagine gold would start to appear perhaps level 4 or 5, or from the hoard of a special monster. I think there is too big a disparity between the level of treasure from the monsters at the start of the adventure, to those at the end.


So for example, perhaps the kobolds at the start of the adventure have around 10sp, but the medusa at the end might have items worth 250sp.


So the bottom line: Adventurers should be using (and finding) copper and silver coins at low levels.




Inna nutshell. They need to re-evaluate their prices, too. Not difficult and would improve immersion and longterm motivation and prevent, well tone down, some more ridiculous aspects of d&d economy.
Isn't it funny that Silvering weapons costs 100 GP instead of 100 SP? 

I think the only reason this is the case is because GP is the baseline currency rather than SP or CP (or EP or PP).  I mean, even the costs for the labor isn't going to take 1,000 SP worth of silver just to silver one weapon or 10 rounds of ammunition.  You could melt down that those 1,000 silver pieces and have more than enough silver for several weapons.  I'd rather it be 100sp to cover both the costs and the silver.  It also makes more sense:  you're dealing in silver to silver a weapon.


I strongly believe that Silver should be the baseline, with copper as smaller units in case you need change, and electrum and gold and platinum being larger currencies you start using at higher levels. 

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

Isn't it funny that Silvering weapons costs 100 GP instead of 100 SP? 

I think the only reason this is the case is because GP is the baseline currency rather than SP or CP (or EP or PP).  I mean, even the costs for the labor isn't going to take 1,000 SP worth of silver just to silver one weapon or 10 rounds of ammunition.  You could melt down that those 1,000 silver pieces and have more than enough silver for several weapons.  I'd rather it be 100sp to cover both the costs and the silver.  It also makes more sense:  you're dealing in silver to silver a weapon.


I strongly believe that Silver should be the baseline, with copper as smaller units in case you need change, and electrum and gold and platinum being larger currencies you start using at higher levels. 



It is. Or the poor fishermen with their 10 gp fishing lines. No wonder so many small villages are tormented by bandits. (Well, obviously a typo). Or the hand axes and morningstars which equal the effect of an improvised weapon. It would be a real deal if a "weaponsmith" sold broken tankards at half that value. Or you could just pick up a stick for free. And so on.
A divisor of 10 would be a start. Personally I would prefer over the board by 50 or even 100 and hand adjustment afterwards. Yes, the DM could houserule it himself, but why not do away with this silliness right from the start?
Houseruling item prices is hard, because players often have their own copies of the handbook with the printed costs, and they reference that.
does anyone else remember something about silver being the base currency in Next? i was actually looking forward to that, but it seems like everything costs buckets of gold pieces.
I think I did read something about that, but I wanted to voice a concern in case it got forgotten and someone at WotC read this :-)
Isn't it funny that Silvering weapons costs 100 GP instead of 100 SP? 

I think the only reason this is the case is because GP is the baseline currency rather than SP or CP (or EP or PP).  I mean, even the costs for the labor isn't going to take 1,000 SP worth of silver just to silver one weapon or 10 rounds of ammunition.  You could melt down that those 1,000 silver pieces and have more than enough silver for several weapons.  I'd rather it be 100sp to cover both the costs and the silver.  It also makes more sense:  you're dealing in silver to silver a weapon.


I strongly believe that Silver should be the baseline, with copper as smaller units in case you need change, and electrum and gold and platinum being larger currencies you start using at higher levels. 



   Cost of materials, cost of labor, time of labor, and the maker's desire for a profit, as well as demand.  How much silver it takes is probably the smallest part of the equation.

   Most things in this world cost considerably more/less than the simple sum of their parts. 
Yes, but when you silver a weapon, you're not using that much silver – just enough to cover the exterior of the weapon.  That much silver would probably be in about 10sp worth of silver; the labor and demand/supply/price considerations should raise it to 100sp, or 10gp, not 100gp.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe


I just wanted to make a few observations about the value of items and the amount of treasure from encounters in the test material.


I noticed most weapons and armour in the test material are valued in gold. I strongly feel that at the beginning of their careers, adventurers would be using copper and some silver. I think basic adventuring gear should be priced at a few copper pieces, basic weapons and armour at a few silver. Perhaps give a PC 50 silver to start off with. I would simply suggesting dividing the cost of weapons by 10. The price of general equipment seems ok to me.


When a PC starts with 100gp to spend, finding 10cp on some kobolds is pretty meaningless.


In the Cave of Chaos adventure, some monsters dropped copper, some silver, which I think is fine, but there was some electrum and some gold and even platinum in the adept's chambers. I would imagine gold would start to appear perhaps level 4 or 5, or from the hoard of a special monster. I think there is too big a disparity between the level of treasure from the monsters at the start of the adventure, to those at the end.


So for example, perhaps the kobolds at the start of the adventure have around 10sp, but the medusa at the end might have items worth 250sp.


So the bottom line: Adventurers should be using (and finding) copper and silver coins at low levels.




This! I thought I read somewhere that they were going to us more copper and silver coins for basic equipment. When I saw the pricing, I did a double take.
On a tangent multiple currencies is one of my least favorite parts of D&D. I wish the game just had one currency, gold pieces, and that was it. I especially can't stand that the currency rates are random.

Ah well, I'm stuck with the currency rules, unforuntately. At least when I DM I can houserule that everything not trivial is in gold pieces andand leave it at that.

/rant off 
Silver standard?  YES PLEASE.

I agree very much with the sentiments of the OP!

D&D has long had a problem where the item costs render the dominant fantasy trope of commoner-turned-hero incongruent with the economics.

Of course, not everyone should have to start off as a poor farmer, but CP and SP need to mean something!  Otherwise they're really just a burden; no one cares about anything other than GP, and CP and SP are a nuisance best converted at the earliest opportunity.

Also, even 1st and 2nd level characters often find that the cash required to pay for a night at the inn and buying some food and drink or greasing the palms of locals for rumors and favors--those classic D&D aspects of tavern-crawling adventurers--is trivial compared to the GP hordes they're raking in even with low level treasure parcels.

Of course, 4e was an absolute abomination so heinously broken I couldn't even figure out how to fix it with house rules without destroying the ruthlessly-required reward system by level.  Infinitely relieved to see that magic item values aren't built into the economics system, on this score.

So, to end the rant, let's have a meaningful SILVER-based economy!

Then add other options (such as one common currency or complex currencies, or different price lists for different settings where certain things may be rare like in Athas) as modules later.



YOU SHALL NOT CRUCIFY HUMANOIDKIND UPON A CROSS OF GOLD!!!

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe




YOU SHALL NOT CRUCIFY HUMANOIDKIND UPON A CROSS OF GOLD!!!



You win.

On subject> DnD doesn't have an economy.  Never have I ever seen a DnD game with a relastic micro or macro economy. Nor would I want to.
I'm actually cool with armor prices being in the multiple gold range.  Think of modern clothing.  A suit costs hundreds of dollars (thousands, maybe, even).  Women routinely buy shoes that cost more than $100.  And these are factory-made, off the rack items.

A suit of armor, especially something like plate, needs to be fitted to the wearer.  It's not enough to just grab a cuirass and slip it on.  Armors seem to be fairly labor intensive things, even down to simple leather.

So, I'm fine with a full set of fitted leather armor costing 10 gold.  It takes a lot of time to put studs all over that, so 25 gold seems okay for studded leather.  The price for plate armor, seems really out of whack, at least with the prices of previous editions that I've seen.  1500 gold seems like a lot, even for a wealthy merchant family, who would likely want the best for their conscripted son.  I can understandd Mithral, Dragonscale and Adamantine armors to be very expensive.  But plate armor is fairly mundane, and I think the price needs to be lowered somewhat, though not to the 50 gold it was in 4E; I'm cool with plate being a kind of "advanced" armor seen later than the early levels.

While I'm on the subject of wonky prices: I have a feeling that we're not getting the entire weapon and armor tables but, rather, the most simple versions of them.  It would not surprise me to see DR show up on the heavy armors later on to justify their use over medium armors.  And it would not surprise me to see more weapon qualities show up later, perhaps like High Crit, or Brutal.

The reason is because I can see no other reason for two statistically identical weapons to be so different in cost.  I am referring to the rapier and the short sword.  Both do 1d6 piercing damage, but the rapier costs twice as much as the short sword.  And the short sword has the advantage of being a light weapon.  The only other difference is weight, where the rapier is a lighter weapon than the short sword (yet lacks the Light quality, which seems weird, but probably has to do with its shape rather than its weight).  I would imagine that the rapier has to have something that makes it superior to the short sword in some way to justify the doubled price.

Luckily, these prices aren't set in stone, and I don't think we're really testing the economic aspect of the game yet, but it is something to watch closely as the test progresses and see what happens. 

For me I think the main issue is that if gold is standard coinage at level 1, what's the point in copper and silver?
Also I don't think PCs would start their career with 100 gold pieces - this would be a fortune the local lord might own.

I agree. (Im not sure how I missed this thread earlier.)

Also, it sets the tone. If player characters have gold, they must be royals, princes or the equivalents.

Peasants almost never have even silver coins. Peasants spend copper coins. They almost never see gold, much less have it to spend.

Wealthy people have silver. Not peasants.

But at least it is feasible for a “lord” to provide a “serf” with cheap leather armor and a poor-quality (used, abused, rusted, fragile, and partly broken) sword. The serf is being forced to fight the lords wars afterall.

Starting with a significant amount of silver coins, by definition, means the players have some kind of aristocratic or mercantile connection, membership or patronage. The backstory should probably mention how they came into this notable sum of 80 silver pieces.



A useful approximation to get a sense of reallife costs:

• 1 decent sword is roughly 10 silver pieces (or 1 gp).
• 1 crappy sword is roughly ½ silver piece. 

1 decent sword ≈ 20 axes ≈ 1 prize-winning cow ≈ 10 gallons of superior wine ≈ 5 pounds of sugar, pepper, or cinnamon ≈ 1 book ≈ 1 weeks wages for a carpenter (skilled labor)



A shirt of chain armor (mail) is 100 silver pieces.




Probably the entire equipment list should appear in silver pieces, including decimal places instead of copper pieces.

I just wanted to make a few observations about the value of items and the amount of treasure from encounters in the test material.


I noticed most weapons and armour in the test material are valued in gold. I strongly feel that at the beginning of their careers, adventurers would be using copper and some silver. I think basic adventuring gear should be priced at a few copper pieces, basic weapons and armour at a few silver. Perhaps give a PC 50 silver to start off with. I would simply suggesting dividing the cost of weapons by 10. The price of general equipment seems ok to me.


When a PC starts with 100gp to spend, finding 10cp on some kobolds is pretty meaningless.


In the Cave of Chaos adventure, some monsters dropped copper, some silver, which I think is fine, but there was some electrum and some gold and even platinum in the adept's chambers. I would imagine gold would start to appear perhaps level 4 or 5, or from the hoard of a special monster. I think there is too big a disparity between the level of treasure from the monsters at the start of the adventure, to those at the end.


So for example, perhaps the kobolds at the start of the adventure have around 10sp, but the medusa at the end might have items worth 250sp.


So the bottom line: Adventurers should be using (and finding) copper and silver coins at low levels.


Yeah, I kind of hoped that WOTC would move away from the gold standard for pricing and adopt a silver standard. I loved the way pricing worked in the Black Company Handbook by Green Ronin Games for 3.5. Stick with silver for most pricing with gold being in the realm of royalty/merchant princes and think the economics work. A gold piece would represent a year's salary (or so) to a peasant.
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Probably, gold shouldnt become standard until about level 11, Paragon tier.
Economics are brutally difficult to model, and D&D will never get it right. The time, cost and effort to build that into the system is just too high.

I agree that it sucks, but this is one place where I fear it just needs to be houseruled to the brink and back.

On the subject of prices, though, let's look at the cost of swords and armor in modern terms. A "real" sword (that is, one constructed in the form and style of an historical piece) starts at around $500USD, and those make concessions. In later Medieval terms, they would probably be considered munitions grade. Most "good" swords are closer to $1000. A pattern-welded Migration Era sword is closer to $2500, and the very best can be twice that.

But that pales in comparison to armor. A maille byrnie with welded links can take tens of thousands of man hours to create from wire. Triple that for a hauberk. These run around $5000 for a period-correct replica. But plate... plate takes the cake. A full harness of "correct" plate, as typified by the 16th century man-at-arms, will cost well well over $20,000. And these take months, if not years to create, being highly tailored to the intended owner. Needless to say, most soliders did not wear a full harness.

I'd love to see a better economy. I'd love to see a harness of mundane plate armor be the kind of thing that the fighter lusts over and saves for across seven levels of advancement because it is that expensive, and that worth it. I'd love to see players scrimping bits of copper all over the place, and being excited to find two silver coins on the corpse of a Thayan. But that's not going to happen, because it's one of those areas where realism just gets in the way of heroic gameplay, and most people simply don't want that.
Instructive comparisons with modern replicas!

The modern prices seem to accurately convey the *relative* value of war equipment. So if a chain shirt is 100 silver pieces and a decent “munition-grade” sword is about 10 silver pieces, you can pretty much figure out the rest of the costs based on their modern replicas.

Since a “decent” sword is about $500 (10 silver coins), and a chain shirt (maille byrnie) is about $5000 (100 silver coins), it seems theres a convenient value for the rate of exchange - at least for the relative prices of military equipment.

1 silver piece = $50

So, google a historically accurate weapon and armor maker, and exchange the modern values for D&D values.

Probably this exchange rate only works for armor - because it is a self-referential sector of the economy. The other sectors will be different because of modern supply and demand.



The D&D economy doesnt need to be perfect. Theres no perfect here. Prices fluctuate. (In ancient Egypt, silver was more valuable than gold at times.) Theres enough academic work on medieval prices now, albeit difficult to access, to ballpark the rest of the prices on the equipment list. The D&D economy just needs to pass the “smell test”.
I think all it needs to be is something like (ballpark)

Plate armour: 100sp
Chainmail: 30sp
Leather Armour: 15sp
Robes: 5sp

Longsword: 10sp
Mace: 6sp
Shortsword: 5sp
Club: 5cp

Give the PC 50s to start with. This means they won't be able to afford their plate armour until they've found some treasure.
 
I've always felt that D&D's pricing structure would be closer to "accurate" if you started with the current pricing scheme and just replaced "gold piece" with "silver penny."

There are very few items in game that sell for a single copper piece under the current pricing structure, and it's usually something dumb, like "1 candle." On the playtest equipment list, the only things priced in coppers are a single candle or piece of chalk (1 cp), a whetstone (2 cp), a flask or jug (3 cp), a ladder (5 cp), or one torch (5 cp). So that's easy...we take the current gold and call it silver, make the current silver copper, and eliminate the old copper piece. Then gold moves up to where platinum is now and platinum is even more special. As for the low end stuff? Candles and chalk sell by the dozen. Flasks and jugs are either pricier or you buy them in lots too.

Personally, I always thought the Basic D&D (and 4e) price list was better than the AD&D/3e one. Despite that, this playtest seems to use the old table. My guess is that it's still a work in progress.

In modern terms, very little costs less than $1. So make that a copper coin and go up from there. As is, since a coin weighs a third of an ounce, the D&D economy says that a dagger is worth 2/3 of an ounce of gold...or about $1000 based on this morning's trading price. That seems a LITTLE inflated. Like, about 10-fold.
Out of curiosity, here are the costs of modern replicas from what seems to be a reliable source, for decent combat-usable equipment.

www.wulflund.com/weapons/swords/viking-s...

When making historically accurate weapons and armors, it takes just as much skill and labor as it did during medieval times. Therefore, the modern prices for modern replicas have about the same *relative* values as the medieval prices for medieval originals.

Since we know what some items cost from medieval documents, it is possible to establish points of correspondence with the modern costs - and then extrapolate from there for the rest of items. Significantly, a decent medieval sword costs 10 shillings (equivalent to 10 silver pieces), while a chain armor shirt costs 100 shillings (equivalent to 100 silver pieces).

Unfortunately,  Theres a big difference between the medieval 100-shilling chain shirt and the modern chain shirts that run between about $200 to $500. Possibly the medieval chain is high-quality (masterwork and elaborate) thus doesnt represent typical costs for decent armor, or possibly the modern links employ machinery to make them thus greatly reducing their labor costs.

Even so, the sword is definitely about 10 shillings (10 silver pieces). I saw one document list 10 shillings (someone bought three for 30 shillings), and a document from another time list 8 shillings. It seems to me, the principle of extrapolating proportional prices from replicas seems sound. Also, the prices in silver just need to be plausible. How wellmade the war equipment is can drastically alter its value, sometimes by 40-some.

All the prices below are rounded off for ballpark.
 

Sword, One-Hand: 10 sp (200 euro: 150-250 euro) (this is what a “shortsword” is, a normal sword)
Sword, Hand-and-Half: 10 sp
(200 euro: 150-250 euro) (this is what a “longsword” is)

Note: The hand-and-half longsword and the one-hand shortsword are about the same price for battle-ready swords (not including training swords or display swords). It seems the handles - fancy or plain - are what vary the price the most. The choice of sword has more to do with personal style than with prices.
 
Dagger: 5 sp (95 euro: 70-120)
Axe, One-Hand or Two-Hand: 6 sp
(110 euro: 90-130)
Axe, Double-Blade, One-Hand or Two-Hand: 8 sp (150: 140-160)
Military Hammer, One-Hand or Two-Hand: 7 sp (140 euro: 110-170)
Mace, Hand-and-Half: 5 sp (100 euro)

Plate Armor, Full: 100 sp
 
Plate Armor, Half-Armor without Legs: 80 sp (1600 euro: 1300-1900)
Chain Armor, Shirt (Tunic): 16 sp (320 euros)
Leather Armor, Shirt (Cuirass): 20 sp (400 euro)
Leather Armor, Full Forearms (Bracers): 3 sp (50 euro: 30-70)
Leather Armor, Wrists (Bracer): 1 sp (20 euro)
Banded Armor (Leather with Iron Strip), Full Forearms (Bracers): 5 sp (90 euro)



On other sites, it can difficult to tell which modern items are actually usable in combat, and which are for costume - or even unwearable for building decoration. Heh, obviously you dont want to ride out to battle in aluminum armor! (But maybe thats what mithral feels like!)






Edit: Im also adding archery equipment from the same site, for relative values.

Longbow (Self Bow, English Bow, ash wood, roughly 73-inch unstrung, 185 cm, 150-220 cm): 6 sp (110-115 euro)
Arrows (74 cm) (×10): 6 sp (11-12 euro ×10)
 
Two-Hand Crossbow: 13 sp (265 euro)
One-Hand Crossbow: 8 sp (155 euro)
Off-Hand Crossbow (fantasy weapon, “pocket” crossbow): 6 sp (115 euro)
Bolts (×10): 7 sp (14 euro ×10)

For me I think the main issue is that if gold is standard coinage at level 1, what's the point in copper and silver?
Also I don't think PCs would start their career with 100 gold pieces - this would be a fortune the local lord might own.



 If memory serves the books generally state that the PCs don't just walk into a store with 100 gold and start buying ****, the 100 gp represents things they've accrued on their adventuring career thus far.

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58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
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144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
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117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
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57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
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I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
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56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
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116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
It seems the equipment prices in the packet are wildly inaccurate. The prices below derive from actual medieval documents.

 

“Its neat to know, an average sword is worth an excellent cow.” 
 
 
For example, reallife medieval prices in Britain:

.05 pound (L: liber) = 1 shilling (s: solidus) = 12 pence (d: denarius)

• Premium sword: 20 shillings
• Decent sword: 8 or 10 shillings
• Poor sword (peasant): ½ shilling
 
As a “shilling” equates to a D&D “silver piece”, the exchange rate for reallife prices in D&D coins is as follows:

0.1 gold piece (gp) = 1 silver piece (sp) = 10 copper pieces (cp)

(But to get a better sense of relative values, all prices appear in silver pieces.)

• Sword, premium: 20 sp
• Sword, decent: 10 sp
• Sword, poor: 0.5 sp

• Hammer, high-quality: 2 sp
• Hammer, mid-quality: 0.7 sp
• Axe: 0.4 sp  

• Chain armor (mail): 100 sp
• Leather armor, low-quality: 5 sp
• Shield, high-quality ("target of proof"): 20 sp

• Tunic, decent cloth: 3 sp
• Tunic, poor cloth: 0.3 sp

• Book: 9 sp (!) 
 
• Cow, prize-winning: 10 sp
• Cow, decent: 6 sp

• Wine, premium (gallon): 1 sp
• Wine, poor (gallon): 0.3 sp   
• Wheat (bushel): 0.02 sp
• Spices (pepper, cinnamon, cloves, sugar) (pound): 2 sp



For non-magical items, realistic prices seem more interesting. It gives a better sense of scale with an actual economy. Its neat to know, an average sword is worth an excellent cow, or 10 gallons of excellent wine, or the price of one book.
Since D&D Next is making silver pieces the standard of the economy, this actually is the standard unit in the reallife economy - at least for the wealthy. The peasants dealt mostly in copper pieces.



Sources

Here is a tentative compilation by an academic from medieval documents. Despite the unfinishedness of this study, many seem to use this as one of the sources. (L1 = 20s) (1s = 12d) (1s = D&D 1 sp):
medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html

Here is a Harry Potter fan site that seems to have a surprisingly good listing (and analysis) of medieval prices. (1 pound = 20 shillings) (1 shilling = 12 pence) (1 shilling = D&D 1 sp):
z15.invisionfree.com/Hogwarts_the_Histor...

Here is a source for wages and basic foods (1d = 1/12 shillings = D&D .08 sp):
www.medievalcoinage.com/prices/medievalp...
 
There are more serious academic studies, but I cant find any available online.
+1 on making the lesser coins more relevant.

If it was my game, I'd leave the equipment tables to setting-specific source books though. A full suit of metal armor might be worth 100 units on Faerun but might be 10,000 on Athas. A campaign set on Earth in the Dark Ages might be more barter based.

One concern I have with deriving prices from modern equivalents is that of raw materials. A 1H sword might cost 200 euros today, but how much of that is driven by the low cost of imported steel created in bulk in distant third-world countries? I'd at least try to use inflation adjusted prices from pre-globalization sources to get the prices to "smell better." Maybe say, early 1900s.
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387

When making historically accurate weapons and armors, it takes just as much skill and labor as it did during medieval times. Therefore, the modern prices for modern replicas have about the same *relative* values as the medieval prices for medieval originals.

Since we know what some items cost from medieval documents, it is possible to establish points of correspondence with the modern costs - and then extrapolate from there for the rest of items. Significantly, a decent medieval sword costs 10 shillings (equivalent to 10 silver pieces), while a chain armor shirt costs 100 shillings (equivalent to 100 silver pieces).

Unfortunately,  Theres a big difference between the medieval 100-shilling chain shirt and the modern chain shirts that run between about $200 to $500. Possibly the medieval chain is high-quality (masterwork and elaborate) thus doesnt represent typical costs for decent armor, or possibly the modern links employ machinery to make them thus greatly reducing their labor costs.



While good quality (modern) armor and weapons are handmade, they use machine-forged steel. That lowers the raw material cost (and total price) by a significant amount.

My experience is slightly different than these prices. A sword for less than $300 isn't really battle-ready.

I suspect a shilling is closer to $50 in modern purchasing power. At 12 pence to the shilling, that would make a silver penny about $4. Which rather conveniently equates to a farthing (a small coin worth 1/4 penny) being worth about $1.

I mostly talk about England, because it's the country whose prices I know the best - other countries had their own coins.

In England, a pound sterling was 20 shillings, but for the medieval period it was a mark of account, not a coin. A "gold sovereign" was finally issued in 1583 with a value of 20 shillings. Prior to that, England had crowns (issued in silver and gold) with a value of 5 shillings. The Angel was another gold coin in circulation and it had a value of 10 shillings.

So in my mind, it would be "realistic" (and kind of neat) to price things in silver pennies, silver shillings and gold crowns (a gold coin with the same value as a historical angel). That currency would be roughly decimal.
they use machine-forged steel.

That makes sense!

This might imply, the price of metals go up geometrically, as they increase in mass. If so, its trickier to convert modern replicas into medieval prices. But again, the prices fluctuate across space and time (region and era), so just ballparking the prices allows a verisimilar economy.

 
 
I suspect a shilling is closer to $50 in modern purchasing power.

The thing is, items can differ completely between eras. For example, where 1 shilling is roughly $50 (and I agree), then a pound of sugar costs about $100 dollars! That is true for how valuable sugar was back then, but it doesnt help figuring out medieval prices from modern ones. So it isnt possible to apply the $50 exchange rate evenly.



I mostly talk about England, because it's the country whose prices I know the best - other countries had their own coins.

In England, a pound sterling was 20 shillings, but for the medieval period it was a mark of account, not a coin. A "gold sovereign" was finally issued in 1583 with a value of 20 shillings. Prior to that, England had crowns (issued in silver and gold) with a value of 5 shillings. The Angel was another gold coin in circulation and it had a value of 10 shillings.

So in my mind, it would be "realistic" (and kind of neat) to price things in silver pennies, silver shillings and gold crowns (a gold coin with the same value as a historical angel). That currency would be roughly decimal.



Heh, I love being able to say, “It costs ten silver.”

But I also think its cool to have synonymous terms, especially for different regions in game. Oh, and a decimal system is a must!

“gold”: liber (L), Fre. livre, Eng. pound, sovereign, angel, crown
“silver”: solidus (s), sou, shilling
: denarius (d), denier, pence, penny
Coins are different sizes, of course. But the todays values for the same weights in gold, silver, and copper round off as follows:
 
 .02 gold ≈ 1 silver ≈ 100 copper
The thing is, items can differ completely between eras. For example, where 1 shilling is roughly $50 (and I agree), then a pound of sugar costs about $100 dollars! That is true for how valuable sugar was back then, but it doesnt help figuring out medieval prices from modern ones. So it isnt possible to apply the $50 exchange rate evenly.



Sure. And true. But for most things, it's pretty accurate. The distinction would be mostly in food items and things that have to come from long distance. Sugar, in medieval times, was a luxury item. So it costs a lot. How do you want sugar to work in your game world? Price it accordingly.


 Heh, I love being able to say, “It costs ten silver.”

But I also think its cool to have synonymous terms, especially for different regions in game. Oh, and a decimal system is a must!

“gold”: liber (L), Fre. livre, Eng. pound, sovereign, angel, crown, Nor. kronr
“silver”: solidus (s), sou, shilling
“penny”: denarius (d), denier, pence 



Well, I admit there's a certain "D&D rationale" to keeping copper, silver and gold. Honestly, nothing prevents us from establishing that D&D uses copper for pennies, silver for a coin valued at roughly a shilling, and gold for a coin that's worth about what an angel was.

I know people like decimal coinage, but it's really hard to square a decimal system with the value of silver and gold while making all coins the same weight. Prior to recent gold inflation (due to its use in electronics), it typically ran about 20x the value of silver per ounce.

At current prices, 1/3 of an ounce of copper (the weight of a copper coin in D&D) would be about $1. Similarly, 1/3 of an ounce of silver  is about $10.

Of course, at current trading prices, gold is worth more than platinum, and 1/3 of an ounce is $500. Which is nuts.
The easy answer to that is to stick electrum in between silver and gold as an intermediate currency, and make platinum much rarer in D&D world, thus upping its price.

1 pp = 10 gp = 100 ep = 1000 sp = 10,000 cp.

That justifies making gold a lot rarer as a currency and reservign it for high levels.
John, these are “troy” ounces and “troy” pounds, right?




Anyway, based on your point about the medieval world generally lacking copper coins, it probably makes sense to discontinue the copper coins, and just use fractions of silver.

So:

Money (Silver)
10 silver = pound/liber, crown 
1 silver = shilling/solidus
.1 silver = pence/denarius
.01 silver = farthing
 
Other Metals
10000 silver = 1 adamantium
1000 silver = 1 mithral
100 silver = 1 gold (scarce)
10 silver = 1 electrum
My modest proposal to the designers:

Create a coinage system for D&D that works as follows:

Coppers (or pennies): a small coin with the purchasing power of an D&D silver piece. If made of copper, it weighs ~1/3 of an ounce (50 to a pound). Put a comment somewhere in the equipment chapter that silver is roughly 10x as valuable as copper, so if a DM wants to use a silver penny in his game, it would weigh roughly a 1/30 of an ounce (500 to the pound)

Silvers (or shillings): 1 silver is worth 10 coppers, or the value of a traditional D&D gold piece (gp). This is pretty close to the actual exchange rate, as well as roughly parallel to the traditional value of 12 pence to the shilling. Like a copper penny, a silver shilling would weigh 1/3 of an ounce.

Golds (or crowns): a gold coin worth 10 shillings, or about the traditional value of a (pre-4e) D&D platinum piece. To be "realistic," this coin should weigh about ~1/6 of an ounce (or 100 to a pound). Put a comment somewhere in the equipment chapter that gold is worth 20x as much as silver.

You can include a platinum coin (again 1/3 of an ounce) worth 10 gold, or an electrum coin if you want, but with these three, you'd cover most people's desires.

This changes a few things. Firstly, it makes the game run on a real silver standard. The price of all things adventurers buy could be given in silvers or coppers. Gold would be a real treasure item. Finding a chest of gold would actually be cool. Platinum at 10x the value of gold means you get an extra coinage "above" traditional platinum (and equal in value to 4e platinum) without having to resort to something silly (like "astral diamonds").

Secondly, by changing the weight of gold coins, you get to keep your decimal currency system while having gold properly valued relative to silver (and platinum). 

Finally, the few items that cost only a copper piece or two under the current pricing structure can simply be sold in bulk. Chalk or candles? 10 pieces cost 1 copper. Similarly, torches are sold in bundles. And so on.

This system would WORK, and the only thing remotely fiddly is my suggestion that gold coins be smaller in order to keep values "realistic." It also has the side effect of making it slightly easier for adventurers to carry piles of gold coins - and I don't think that's a bad thing.

That's my suggestion. Take it as you will. 
Heh, instead of explaining how to calculate it, just rewrite the list with the correct values.

If anyone has comments about adjusting a particular item, the list can update.
Well, I was kinda trying to tread the line between "realistic" and "traditional D&D."

I like electrum, but not everyone does. And 100x between silver and gold is a bit silly.

I get that people like decimal coinage, although I think we worry too much. Warhammer Fantasy used pence, shillings and crowns, and nobody had a problem with it. Heck, the british government used non-decimal coinage until 1971, and everyone seemed to manage just fine.

Even AD&D (1e) used a coinage standard that was 10 copper per silver, 20 silvers to the gold and 5 golds to the platinum piece. And an electrum was worth 10 silvers. And we all managed just fine.

My adjustments preserve the "realism" of the AD&D system while maintaining the decimal coinage system everyone seems to like so much. We just need a couple notes pointing out that silver pennies and gold coins don't weigh as much. Which seems easy to me.

YMMV. 
Today, its about 50 silver to 1 gold, so 100 to 1 doesnt seem so bad?

Still, Im excited about making all money silver. Then other metals can cost whatever they cost.

5000 silver = 1 adamantine
1000 silver = 1 mithral
50 silver = 1 gold
10 silver = 1 electrum
Today, its about 50 silver to 1 gold, so 100 to 1 doesnt seem so bad?

Still, Im excited about making all money silver. Then other metals can cost whatever they cost.

5000 silver = 1 adamantine
1000 silver = 1 mithral
50 silver = 1 gold
10 silver = 1 electrum



Well, most people thing gold is currently overvalued relative to silver and copper. Traditionally, the silver/gold exchange rate hovered closer to 20x (although it got as low as 15). 

Personally, I'm all for replacing the GP with a silver coin that has the same place in the game's economy. Alternatively, you could just replace the silver piece with a silver penny that weighs much less than a silver piece currently does. Then you just need to set a value for gold that makes some kind of sense and design a few (reasonable) gold coins to give out as treasure. For what it's worth, a roman Solidus weighed about 1/6 of an ounce.

For comparison, a medieval silver penny weighed (not surprisingly) "1 pennyweight," or ~1/20 of an ounce.

It's worth noting that in the 13th century, England briefly minted a gold penny (worth 20 silver pennies) that also weighed 1 pennyweight.
By way of full disclosure, I should also point out that I'm a history buff and I geek out a bit about stuff like this. So it tweaks my sense of realism when D&D prices make no sense.
I don't think comparing modern replica prices is right for this. Those prices seem to be based on supply and demand too. When medieval weapons and armor were used, one would assume there would be more people making them. There'd also be more people who know how to make them, and more people who would even want to make them since there would be more people who would need and want them then there are now.

But those historical documents do provide some interesting ideas. I'd really like to have a believable economy for my longterm non-dungeon crawl games.

And by the way, since no one has mentioned it yet, World of Warcraft uses a 1:100 ratio for coinage. It made copper and silver matter in the beginning, and it made it awesome when you first started finding gold on creatures. 1 platinum > 100 gold > 10,000 silver > 1,000,000 copper would have made the magic item costs in 4E more managable (and it was doable by making all listed gold prices into silver prices).

Poe's Law is alive and well.

And by the way, since no one has mentioned it yet, World of Warcraft uses a 1:100 ratio for coinage. It made copper and silver matter in the beginning, and it made it awesome when you first started finding gold on creatures. 1 platinum > 100 gold > 10,000 silver > 1,000,000 copper would have made the magic item costs in 4E more managable (and it was doable by making all listed gold prices into silver prices).



WoW isn't unique in this. The Dragon Age RPG does the same thing.

And I didn't bring it up because while it makes it easy to account for very expensive items, frankly, it's ludicrous. And it bears not a smidgeon of semblance to the real world values of precious metals. One of the things that just doesn't FEEL right about D&D to me is handing over a sack (about 2 pounds) of gold coins for a riding horse.

Most semi-realistic fantasy worlds operate on a silver standard. Gold is just not common enough to be used as the default currency. In the real (pre-industrial) world, copper was considered a base metal, silver was the standard for exchange, and gold was about 20 times more valuable than silver. And keeping those values generally FEELS right.

Maybe instead of ridiculously escalating the values of coinage, we ought to advocate for reigning in the cost of magic items so those values aren't needed. At least, that'd be my preference.