The reintroduction of save-or-die mechanics is not welcome.

Re: The Medusa.

This creature represents everything about old-school D&D that game design has passed by and no longer desires.

If I ambushed a party with a Medusa, there's a very high chance at least one of them is going to die without warning.  This is by design, and it is not fun for anyone at the table.   If my players do not wish to roll a die every turn to see if they're allowed to continue playing or not, they suffer a massive penalty that can more than halve their accuracy, while they're hit twice as often.

Previous posts by Wizards staff suggested that any save-or-die mechanics, if introduced, would be qualified by health percentages or be on the player's side of the arena.  This example, in the very first playtest, is neither.
Then don't ambush them with medusa....

Any more then you would ambush them with falling rocks...

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I also agree. I had a talk about this with a few players about mechanics that makes you just stop playing. It's not fun at all. Dominate spells, paralysis, petrification, all those mechanics that, because of an unlucky roll, make you just stop playing is never fun. Give me something to do on my turn (and I'm not talking about : make a check DC X if you succeed you're back in the fight... that isn't much more fun).

I remember a game I had few weeks ago of a D&D retro clone where my character were dominated by feys and tried to drown himself all under the DMs control and me, for like half the damn session, just couldn't play at all. I had made an hour of driving to go to the game and didn't even played a whole hour if you take out the time to make characters and setting introduction... How boring. I would have stayed home if I knew the rules wouldn't let me play at all.

On the contrary, charm effects could be fun to play because suddenly, you cannot attack the caster anymore but you still have control over your character and could roleplay it trying to convince his comrades to not attack his new best friend, etc.

A kind of ability that would, say, paralyse a character but in fact will make his soul (or something like that) confront some kind of challenge and if overcome, the character is freed of the spell and could even have gained a precious information or learned a weakness of the monster. That would be fun because in effect, your character is paralysed and cannot help with the fight anymore but you still have something to do on your turn wheter just stand back, eat cheetos and watch the other having fun (without you).
Some powers, if they are too dangerous, should be added like a optional template. It would allow DM could change it, adding or taking away XPs of reward (because the challenge rating isn´t the same) how it was necessary.

Those powers should be in a separate block with its own value of XPs reward.

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

How about a double save?

If you don't avert your eyes, she can paralize you with her gaze.
The next round, if she is still staring at you, you make a DC 13 Con check to be turned to stone.

It should take a few seconds to turn someone to stone.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Then don't ambush them with medusa....

Any more then you would ambush them with falling rocks...



I 100% agree. Medusa isn't meant to be a fight that you ambush your party with. How can people not see that? Yes a bad DM could ambush the party with a monster or a trap that has a save or die mechanic. In my opinion that would make them a bad DM, or at least a DM of a style of game that I'm not intereted in playing in. A bad DM, however, could also ambush a 1st level party with five ogres. Or he could, as the author above states, just drop some rocks on their head and kill them. If that happens, find a new DM.

The Medusa isn't a monster to fight, it's a puzzle to solve.
cancer isn't fun either, but it still happens.


yes, that comparison is rediculous, but it's still valid, the only difference is you have control as a GM to change the mechanic to your liking. but honestly, save-or-die should be left for high level encounters where the players are experienced, scouting properly, and should almost never be ambushed. they also have spells that revive the dead.

it's save-or-die, not save-or-burn-your-character-sheet.



Why change it and pay money when I can just play a system that already has what I want?


So not ONLY do I have to buy the new system? I have to change it? Good luck selling that. 
Depends on how much houseruling is needed. This is one example, and taken alone not that big of a deal, but stuff like this builds up. He's got a game that he enjoys, if the only way he can enjoy this is to houserule the balls out of it then there's no reason to make the transition.

So its good to get it out in the open. Save-or-die mechanics are a very divisive issue. I personally have no love for them at all. I'd be happy to see them gone.
Then don't ambush them with medusa....

Any more then you would ambush them with falling rocks...



"Rocks fall, everybody dies" is my favorite response to a player being stupid. :P

Then don't ambush them with medusa....

Any more then you would ambush them with falling rocks...

This.

I actually thought the medusa was too tame.  Even the 4E one has a better chance of turning heroes to stone during the fight.  The one here only does it if the PCs decide to risk looking. 

Your complaint, as mellored points out, is akin to complaining about any way that the PCs could instantly die.  I (as the DM) could smash them with meteors, push them down a bottomless pit, have dragons eat them, etc etc etc.  But I don't, because that wouldn't make for a good game.  In the same way, yelling, "Gotcha, you dumb players!" and having some medusas ambush them without any warning would not make for a good game.

OK, so......

Medusas turn people to stone. They are scary like that, it's part of the core of the creature concept...a creature concept older than Christianity. You go to any non-nerd person on the street and ask them "What's scary about a medusa?" And they will say "She's a snake headed woman that'll turn you to stone! Oh, and I think the snake hair can bite your ***, too."

Having monsters with these types of effects doesn't ruin your game. The DM doesn't have to play them. I have been playing DnD almost weekly for 12 years, and I've never used every creature in any of the Monster Manuals. Heck, I haven't even been able to use all the ones I thought were cool.

Talk to your DM, tell him you don't like save vs. death, and be merry! Also, try to remember that 5e is supposed to be modular. This means not every rule, every monster, every class, and every spell is meant for everyone. Let others have their save vs. death, it's not crampin' your style, bro.
Depends on how much houseruling is needed. This is one example, and taken alone not that big of a deal, but stuff like this builds up. He's got a game that he enjoys, if the only way he can enjoy this is to houserule the balls out of it then there's no reason to make the transition.

So its good to get it out in the open. Save-or-die mechanics are a very divisive issue. I personally have no love for them at all. I'd be happy to see them gone.



Exactly, why spend money and do more work when I can just stay with what I have and do less work? There is no insentive when I am required to houserule a bunch of rules and massively reasearch monster stat blocks because not all the info is in one place. Certianly not for dropping ~100 dollars on the starter set of books (assuming 30 per)
Save or die is, at my table, a welcome mechanic! It gives a great sense of danger, players start acting carefull, try to use theire abilities at the best, tension run wild, and I have a loat of fun with that. Everything is not glolden and shining.
Then don't ambush them with medusa....

Although this is arguably a "solution" to the problem voiced by the OP, it applies to only one out of every five or six players -- the DM. It does not address the concern a *PC-player* has. If a DM does use a medusa in an ambush, the save-or-stop-playing concerned raised by the player exists *in the game*.

Further, the proposed solution addresses a game-rule concern with a game-style solution. I don't think game-rule concerns are appropriately addressed by game-style proposals.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
I think players need to speek up about their preferences and seek out DMs of like mind.  Don't deny an entire segment what they do want.  Thats a good way to get a game that doesn't sell well.

 
I am also not a fan of "save or die" mechanics.  One die roll ought not be the life or death of a character. 

One thing to look at is the other side of the coin....if save or die is part of the monsters, it is easy to make the jump to think that eventually it is going to be part of the characters as well, and then you are put in a position to have to "house rule" what the players can do, or allow abusive combos that end really good scenarios becasue an assassin's poison killed a dragon on turn two.  It's an easy discussion to say why you are making the monsters less lethal, but a tougher sell to tell players why their particular build isn't valid in your game.

Yes, it can happen, and cancer can happen, but I would just rather not have either as part of my game.   ;P

Also, good DM, bad DM?   I'm the one holding the gun.   Nooch.
Save or die is also a welcome mechanic at my table. I have a table full as well as past tables full of players that understood as a DM I wasnt going to just use a monster with an ability like that as a wandering encounter, or willy nilly filla room with them. They are supposed to be scary. Something I feel that has been missing in the past 2 editions of OUR game.

Would the OP rather a medusa that gave you a stiff cough instead? (Not mocking, I am trying to point out certain creatures are supposed to be epically dangerous.)  
Save or die is also a welcome mechanic at my table. I have a table full as well as past tables full of players that understood as a DM I wasnt going to just use a monster with an ability like that as a wandering encounter, or willy nilly filla room with them. They are supposed to be scary. Something I feel that has been missing in the past 2 editions of OUR game.

Would the OP rather a medusa that gave you a stiff cough instead? (Not mocking, I am trying to point out certain creatures are supposed to be epically dangerous.)  



A game the continually relies on DM fiat to function is a broken framework. 
They actually removed the save or die - the original medusa's hair is capable of killing with poison. This medusa's hair can't kill with a save or die, and she's carrying a stone to flesh potion with 6 doses (as in the original). Just can't wussify her enough for some, I guess.
Depends on how much houseruling is needed. This is one example, and taken alone not that big of a deal, but stuff like this builds up. He's got a game that he enjoys, if the only way he can enjoy this is to houserule the balls out of it then there's no reason to make the transition.

So its good to get it out in the open. Save-or-die mechanics are a very divisive issue. I personally have no love for them at all. I'd be happy to see them gone.



Exactly, why spend money and do more work when I can just stay with what I have and do less work? There is no insentive when I am required to houserule a bunch of rules and massively reasearch monster stat blocks because not all the info is in one place. Certianly not for dropping ~100 dollars on the starter set of books (assuming 30 per)



Why'd we move on past AD&D? Because concepts changed, ideas wanted to be tried, and people got bored with the same ****. If you apply your logic, why do we have 2nd-4e to begin with? every system requires a new frame of mind to work with and some study to learn. Just like any hobby that has ever existed ever since the history of the concept of time. Also, calm down with the module QQing. That's the purpose of the modules, one, and two, they have every intent to make them easily integratable. Hell, even on the char sheets in the folder they have minor references to the modules, encouraging to drop theme should you want a more "old school" feel. 

As for save-or-die, much the same can be said, and a lot of what people have said is very true. Don't like it? Find a like minded DM and play with them. I've both left parties and asked players to leave parties i was DMing for something like this. It's not a matter of "I'm right, you're wrong." it all boils down to the fact that it's a game; one that in any edition can be tweaked and modified so that everyone at the table is having fun. If two people have differing views on whats fun, then they probably shouldn't play together. Ruling out, of course, DMs that think they are against the players. That's a whole different thing.



cancer isn't fun either, but it still happens.
yes, that comparison is rediculous, but it's still valid...



Nope.  It's just ridiculous.  The purpose of D&D is not to reproduce reality.  If it were, there wouldn't be medusae in it.  The purpose is fun, and anything that absolutely cuts one of the players off from that fun is an insta-fail.
Now there are ameliorating effects here.  The stone-to-flesh potion, etc. mean this may not be a game ender...but suggesting that the old 'rip up your character and sit out the rest of the night' model is a good one is not doing the game any favors.

cancer isn't fun either, but it still happens.



And yet wisely WotC hasn't decided to make D&DNext give you cancer.
I both play, and DM, and I have to say that I disagree with the concept that losing control of your character is completely wrong.  There have been times that I welcomed it, as a player, because I was ready for a break and the rest of my party wasn't.  I usually play in 7 hour sessions.

That being said, I love the heart pounding feel of knowing that your character's entire life has lead to a single moment in time.  This one spot where everything rides on a single throw of the dice.  Win or lose, succeed or fail, your character was actually alive in you for a moment and the bones rattled.

Then the die drops and spins to a stop.  The epic music is playing a silent track in your head as the die rolls over and you see the result.

Just because YOU hate save-or-die mechanics, don't assume that everyone does.  It is the most insanely visceral moment of RPGs.
I both play, and DM, and I have to say that I disagree with the concept that losing control of your character is completely wrong.  There have been times that I welcomed it, as a player, because I was ready for a break and the rest of my party wasn't.  I usually play in 7 hour sessions.

That being said, I love the heart pounding feel of knowing that your character's entire life has lead to a single moment in time.  This one spot where everything rides on a single throw of the dice.  Win or lose, succeed or fail, your character was actually alive in you for a moment and the bones rattled.

Then the die drops and spins to a stop.  The epic music is playing a silent track in your head as the die rolls over and you see the result.


Just because YOU hate save-or-die mechanics, don't assume that everyone does.  It is the most insanely visceral moment of RPGs.




This. A thousand times this.

...but suggesting that the old 'rip up your character and sit out the rest of the night' model is a good one is not doing the game any favors.



And nobody's suggesting that. Well, the haters are. But in actuality, it's "You died, you can play one of the prisoners, roll it up quick, your equipment will be in the pile in room X". Ten minutes later, back in the game. Unless there's something wrong with the DM or other players, that's pretty much the way it's always been. Well, unless the system takes an hour to create a character.
I used to be anti-"save or die", though I wouldn't say that I'm pro-"save or die".

However, as long as the role and pitfalls of "save or die" effects are sufficiently covered in the DMG, they aren't autmatically a problem.  The medusa in particular requires the PCs to intentionally look at the medusa (barring surprise, which would be a DM jerk-move cautioned against in the DMG).  They can always choose not to do so.

On top of that, by the time you throw a medusa at somebody, there's probably "Stone to Flesh" readily available somewhere nearby.

Like the gun-nuts say, "Save-or-Die doesn't kill PCs, DMs kill PCs".
I also agree. I had a talk about this with a few players about mechanics that makes you just stop playing. It's not fun at all. Dominate spells, paralysis, petrification, all those mechanics that, because of an unlucky roll, make you just stop playing is never fun. Give me something to do on my turn (and I'm not talking about : make a check DC X if you succeed you're back in the fight... that isn't much more fun).

I remember a game I had few weeks ago of a D&D retro clone where my character were dominated by feys and tried to drown himself all under the DMs control and me, for like half the damn session, just couldn't play at all. I had made an hour of driving to go to the game and didn't even played a whole hour if you take out the time to make characters and setting introduction... How boring. I would have stayed home if I knew the rules wouldn't let me play at all.

On the contrary, charm effects could be fun to play because suddenly, you cannot attack the caster anymore but you still have control over your character and could roleplay it trying to convince his comrades to not attack his new best friend, etc.

A kind of ability that would, say, paralyse a character but in fact will make his soul (or something like that) confront some kind of challenge and if overcome, the character is freed of the spell and could even have gained a precious information or learned a weakness of the monster. That would be fun because in effect, your character is paralysed and cannot help with the fight anymore but you still have something to do on your turn wheter just stand back, eat cheetos and watch the other having fun (without you).

Bah! Tell them character loving players to grow a pair and not get too attached.  I'm simply amazed at the amount of limp wristed DMing that goes on these days.  I have Dead Character Silhouettes pasted to my DM's Screen and people flock to my games, I have to turn people away.

I have Dead Character Silhouettes pasted to my DM's Screen and people flock to my games, I have to turn people away.



I'm so doing this from now on. Or maybe on the wall in the room we play in. The Wall of Assorted squidly bits, exploded ones, and charred champions.

I have Dead Character Silhouettes pasted to my DM's Screen and people flock to my games, I have to turn people away.



I'm so doing this from now on. Or maybe on the wall in the room we play in. The Wall of Assorted squidly bits, exploded ones, and charred champions.


I actually had to make a special one for they guy who's Druid and Dog pet got blasted by a fireball.  I made a Silhouette of a little schnauzer with X's on his eyes.
Nice. We've had some good ones out here. We kept a body that had the soul stolen out of it for trap-finding purposes. I guess I'll have to make a special section of the wall for "Invalids," too.
I welcome Save Or Die as implimented in the Medusa -- That is, under normal circumstances it only exposes you to death if you're careless.  Barring an ambush (which is a jerk move if you haven't telegraphed "medusa in the area"), any stoning deaths can be directly attributed to the choices the player made.  To paraphrase, the DM shouldn't kill PCs (Rocks fall, the Gnome with the Wand of Death, etc)... but should provide opportunities for careless or unthinking players to get their PCs killed (AKA, danger)

And really, what would the Medusa, as a concept, be without a Stoning attack?  Something like a red dragon without fire breath, I imagine -- you could do it, but it just wouldn't be the same.  I'm all for really limiting the occurance of instadeaths, ESPECIALLY instadeaths by zapping (Slay living, etc) against which there is no reactive defense, but the Medusa, the Basilisk, the (Foo)trice -- these things have "Threat of death" written all over them.

As to dead character (sheets)... I once jokingly suggested laminating the sheets and turning them into an "evil DM cape".  it'd probably be funny once.

"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice."

 

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Last Edited by Ralph on blank, 1920

Why'd we move on past AD&D? Because concepts changed, ideas wanted to be tried, and people got bored with the same ****. If you apply your logic, why do we have 2nd-4e to begin with? every system requires a new frame of mind to work with and some study to learn. Just like any hobby that has ever existed ever since the history of the concept of time. Also, calm down with the module QQing. That's the purpose of the modules, one, and two, they have every intent to make them easily integratable. Hell, even on the char sheets in the folder they have minor references to the modules, encouraging to drop theme should you want a more "old school" feel.



Well, there's a simple reason people moved on, in my case 2nd edition was boring and 3rd edition wore me down over time with its flaws.

The logic being employed here is to say that I am happy with a game, that game being 4th edition. To move away from that one of two conditions must be met: either 4th edition stops being fun, much like 3rd did for me, or 5th edition must be more fun than 4th. The first condition doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon. Its too early to tell for the second condition, but save-or-die is an obstacle to that for me.

But as it pertains to the actual point I was making, houseruling every problem you have with a system away is a balancing act. There is little I feel I have to houserule about 4th, so if the transition to 5th seems like its going to take a good deal of effort on my part to alter and fit to my expectations, then I'm not going to do it unless the payoff is big.


As for save-or-die, much the same can be said, and a lot of what people have said is very true. Don't like it? Find a like minded DM and play with them. I've both left parties and asked players to leave parties i was DMing for something like this. It's not a matter of "I'm right, you're wrong." it all boils down to the fact that it's a game; one that in any edition can be tweaked and modified so that everyone at the table is having fun. If two people have differing views on whats fun, then they probably shouldn't play together. Ruling out, of course, DMs that think they are against the players. That's a whole different thing.


Or, and I'm just spitballing here, I can remain with the edition that works without having to change everything. The logic here assumes that Next is the only pair of pants in town and I have to find a way to fit into it. This isn't true, I have a very good pair of pants I'm already wearing, and I won't throw them out for pants that don't fit right.

Of course this is a single issue and not that big of a deal. Its just that lots of little things like this can build up and make trying to fit into this new pair of pants a pointless endeavor. And that goes for players of all editions.
I liked 4E's way of dealing with the very few save-or-die attacks in the game: you had to fail at something like 3 saves to "die", with each failed save hindering you in some way.
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But the good name never dies of one who has done well. Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But I know one thing that never dies: the glory of the great dead. - [i]Hávamál[/i] D&D 4th Edition Bard builds: The Dashing Swordsman, The Master of Sound and Illusions, The Warrior Skald Captain Morality! (No point in not having fun with it. )
There's some great feedback here, but I had to go through and remove a couple instances of personal attacks. We're looking to share our feedback to create a game we can all enjoy. There's absolutely no reason for personal attacks, so don't do it.

Trevor Kidd Community Manager

I'm all for save or die and effects that block players from acting.
First of all: bad things happen, part of the fun is overcoming difficulties no matter how deadly.
The game will (hopefully) provide means to counter these (raise dead, neutralize poison ecc...)

Second: if players get to use them on monsters and NPCs, they should be preparde to suffer the same.

Third: they are a staple of fantasy.

Fourth: your character died? No big deal: farewell dear friend, time to roll a new one.
Wile I'm not entirely against save or die effects I would have espected some sort of damage threshold for monster's sod just like similar PC effects (see sleep spell).
Dm Fiat has nothing to do with not placing a Medusa in a list of random encounters. Its called Dming. 

It is not a broken system, because there is no place that says you MUST use a medusa. You can swap it out if you dont like it. Or explain storywise why this Medusa can't or won't use her stoning power.  

You are a DM change what you need. This concept that it is going to take hours to create an adventure- and that being a PROBLEM is horrid. I put hours into creating my games so I can entertain my players and put lots of options of ways for them to go. If you are building just as fast as you can, there is a high probability you need to play and feel the game from the otherside of the screen. 

I agree with the poster that said "The moment of a save or die is one of the most viseral in rpg gaming. Its terrifying. 

also, Stone to flesh can resolve your issues. No need to destroy the character sheet.

or, gasp, you could build a story around fixing said "stoney" pc.

I am so glad this edition is going to be modular and I can leave out or include the things i love and the things I do not. We all need to get the idea of "my idea is better than yours" or "your ideas are dumb/broke/lame/have no place in gaming" and move towards I look forward to them including the option of ____________________.
 
Guys, please, we need to calm down about this. From the start the designers have said 5e is focused on being modular and inclusive for all gaming styles. This means I can have my save vs. death and you can have a game free of it.

Stop worrying about things you don't have to include at the table. It's an option, not a mandate. I don't know what else to say, really. 

The issue is not whether save-or-dies are worthwhile additions to the D&D experience, it is whether D&D Next can easily incorporate both viewpoints.  Any other solution will obviously annoy a large segment of the player base--which is just what this new system is attempting to avoid.  I assume a complete version of the game will have options for DMs to run medusas and similar threats without the instant lethality.  Forcing a DM to weed out monsters, spells, traps, what have you with save-or-dies on a case by case basis is not going to cut it.

Save or die is a worthy addition, no mather what everyone is saying. Bad DMing is what makes the game bad. A good DM will always find creative way for all to enjoy this particular 'challenge' it is not a mechanics in itself it is really a challenge that a clever party can work around. 
Character death is, like everything Dungeons and Dragons, a fulcrum for a balance point.  I hope I'm using that analogy correctly.

I feel that characters must be able to die, but after spending a year and a campaign with a character, developing NPC contacts, a rich history and a devoted cause and quests, having characters die, or a dreaded Total Party Kill can really destory a good storyline.  If a player wants to try someone new, that is all well and good, but I am VERY cautious about allowing a character to die in my games.  This isn't Game of Thrones, many of us are very, very vested in our characters.

Yep....a Medusa's gaze is deadly.  Yes,  a Dragon's fire can melt a castle...but having mechanics inherent in your game system that can potentially stop years of storytelling and character development for a player with a "single" die roll is just a bitter pill to swallow.  I understand that all the rules are flexible, but the game rules as written create a flavour and an atmosphere that the entire game culture is based on.  One hit kills or Save vs. Die rolls sets an atmosphere of casual disregard for a player character's life. 

This (I take it heated, based on Moderator edits) discussion sets the table for one of the main concerns I have about D&D Next:  introducing it to my players, then having to go through the negotiations necessary to come to a decision about what rules we are using, and which we are not....which rules modules we incorporate and which we don't.  Right now, I'm all Essentials Only, but my players pick and choose from the entire Compendium, and I find it hard to keep up with all the rules. As I go through each rules module, will I then have to go through with my white out pen and say "yhis stays, this goes, this is okay, this cna happen once, etc etc etc?)

House rules are pretty standard fare for any roleplaying game, we have a bunch for 4e as it stands, but naturally I would like a version of D&D that is closest to the way I like to play.  It may be kinder and gentler, but I'd rather savage a player and bat them around like a kitty with a ball of yarn than smash them flat with a medusa's gaze. 

In the end, again, the ultimate responsibility is on the players to make the game fun and exciting and well, dangerous.  I wonder how Next will accomodate "hack and slash disposable heros" style play to epic campaign storytelling play.  I find joy in both camps, again a balance, but writing complete rules for every type of player will be incredibly difficult.  I'm kind of honoured to be a part of the process, throwing my two cents in from time and time again.

Keep the Save VS. Death as something us old folks shudder to think about fromt he original Tomb of Horrors, and leave it in the past. Clever DMs will always find ways to instant kill people for dramatic effect if needs be, just as clever DMs will keep them walking around.  I don't think D&D needs rules on the books for instant kills.

By the way, you are all smart, pretty and tall.  :D
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