Can some one explain the Rogue?

It's theme Lurker seems to offer no benefit.

Benefit: When you start your turn hidden from a creature, you have advantage on your first attack against that creature during that turn. 

But under the Benefits of Being Hidden

Advantage on Attacks:
 When you attack a creature from which you are hidden, you gain advantage on that attack. Usually attack reveals your position.

Okay so I guess Lurker lets you move out of cover and then attack, but it seems like it could be written a little better to make that clear it is the only benefit.

Also

Racial Features

Naturally Stealthy
You can hide behind creatures that are larger than you.

Anyone can hide behind creatures larger than them.

From the rules on Stealth "Regardless of what obscures you, the thing must cover at least half your body for you to hide." However in the Steath rules it only calls out immobile creatures, does Naturally Stealthy mean you can hide behind mobile creatures in which case since that is the exception that's what the rule should call out. At the moment it does nothing.

Rogue has two abilities that as written seem only to do what everyone can already do under the rules.

 
It's theme Lurker seems to offer no benefit.

Benefit: When you start your turn hidden from a creature, you have advantage on your first attack against that creature during that turn. 

But under the Benefits of Being Hidden

Advantage on Attacks:
 When you attack a creature from which you are hidden, you gain advantage on that attack. Usually attack reveals your position.

Okay so I guess Lurker lets you move out of cover and then attack, but it seems like it could be written a little better to make that clear it is the only benefit.

Also


When you start your turn hidden is key.
you can start your turn hidden then move from your hiding place go yelling screaming jumping around with your move action.
and then atack still having advantage.

When you attack a creature from which you are hidden, this means you would have to attack from your hiding place.
as moving away from the cover your hiding behind would mean you are no longer hidden.
so this is probebly somthing that can only be done with range attacks, or magic like invisibility.
Lurker allows you to retain advantage on your attack, even if you aren't hidden when you make it, as long as you were hidden at the beginning of your turn.

Naturally stealthy allows you to hide behind creatures that are larger than you, mobile or immoble.

Those are both things that no one else can do under the rules.

It looks like what you're asking for is a bit more clarity, but if you answered your own questions in the same post that you asked them, I can't imagine it was all that unclear. Did it take you long to find the answers? If so I understand what you're getting at, but your post gives no indication of that.
It's theme Lurker seems to offer no benefit.

Racial Features

Naturally Stealthy
You can hide behind creatures that are larger than you.

Anyone can hide behind creatures larger than them.

From the rules on Stealth "Regardless of what obscures you, the thing must cover at least half your body for you to hide." However in the Steath rules it only calls out immobile creatures, does Naturally Stealthy mean you can hide behind mobile creatures in which case since that is the exception that's what the rule should call out. At the moment it does nothing.

Rogue has two abilities that as written seem only to do what everyone can already do under the rules.

 



This feature seems to overrule the general need for creatures being immobile to be used for hiding.

But yes, the starting feature of Lurker doesn't seem to add something.

IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_iswhite.jpg)

But yes, the starting feature of Lurker doesn't seem to add something.

It does.

You can start your turn hidden, walk up to someone, and still have advantage.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It's theme Lurker seems to offer no benefit.

Racial Features

Naturally Stealthy
You can hide behind creatures that are larger than you.

Anyone can hide behind creatures larger than them.

From the rules on Stealth "Regardless of what obscures you, the thing must cover at least half your body for you to hide." However in the Steath rules it only calls out immobile creatures, does Naturally Stealthy mean you can hide behind mobile creatures in which case since that is the exception that's what the rule should call out. At the moment it does nothing.

Rogue has two abilities that as written seem only to do what everyone can already do under the rules.

 



This feature seems to overrule the general need for creatures being immobile to be used for hiding.

But yes, the starting feature of Lurker doesn't seem to add something.


Yes it does.

Under normal circumstances, you gain advantage when you attack a creature you are hidden from. That means you have to still be hidden when you make the attack, which means you either need a gonzo bonus to your stealth, or to make a ranged attack from your hiding place, otherwise the enemy will see you long before you reach them, and you won't have advantage.

With Lurker, as long as you start your turn hidden you can march right up to your target holding a sign that says "LOOK AT ME, I'M ABOUT TO ATTACK YOU!", make a funny face at him, and yell "BOO!" and you will still have advantage for the attack, as long as you were hidden at the start of your turn.
Naturally stealthy allows you to hide behind creatures that are larger than you, mobile or immoble.



If that is the case it needs to call it out.

It looks like what you're asking for is a bit more clarity.



Exactly. I know they want to get back the roots of D&D but do we really need to introduces vagueness just so every DM has his own set of house rules for everything?

Still with the sling doing more damage, no advatange for flanking, being able to hide behind people (so long as they don't move off on their go) and staying hidden with ranged attacks that missed does it seem to anyone else that his role in combat is to camp behind the wizards robes throwing rocks?

Doesn't seem very rogue like to me. 
Naturally stealthy allows you to hide behind creatures that are larger than you, mobile or immoble.



If that is the case it needs to call it out.

It looks like what you're asking for is a bit more clarity.



Exactly. I know they want to get back the roots of D&D but do we really need to introduces vagueness just so every DM has his own set of house rules for everything?



My question is, was this actually unclear to you, or are you just pointing out something that could theoretically be unclear to someone? Because to me it was immediately clear, but if that isn't the case for most people, I agree that the wording needs work. To be fair, while the rogue's features were clear as crystal to me, there were other class features (specifically, those of the cleric) that I found to be about as clear as mud.

It is a valid point that this gygaxian prose may make some people happy out of nostalgia value, it will also make many players unhappy, due to the fact that just looking up a rule sometimes isn't enough, because if it's worded confusingly you often have to compare it to two or three other rules to figure out what it actually does.

I think this thread would greatly benifit from a change in title. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like your issue is more with vague, easily misinterpruted wording in general than with the rogue's abilities specifically. 
Still with the sling doing more damage, no advatange for flanking, being able to hide behind people (so long as they don't move off on their go) and staying hidden with ranged attacks that missed does it seem to anyone else that his role in combat is to camp behind the wizards robes throwing rocks?

Doesn't seem very rogue like to me. 


That does seem to be the case, though to me it seems very much one possible interpretation of rogue. Ranged rogues have always been a valid option, though it seems this premade is pushing the range thing pretty hard. However, I think it's a safe bet to say we'll be able to build rogues that are better in melee once we have rules for how to build characters and not just premades.
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