First Impressions, slayer and surges, STs

Finally managed to download and browse the 5e playtest stuff, I'm liking what I see except:


  • the renamed Healing Surges


So, if I read right a night's rest heals EVERYTHING????? This is rather silly, one of the things I did not like about 4e.
Maybe have the characters heal half a HD roll's total on a long rest and... no healing for short rests?



  • Slayer (the you hit even if you miss talent) which I find is a horrible example of disconnect.


I could/would never "explain" that at the table without somehow invoking magic.
Maybe change slayer to double maximum damage on a critical? Or critical hits on 19-20?

The character sheet is now simple, easy to read and concise, most of all I find it's newbie-friendly. Good Thing.
Personally I won't miss ST categories.
I'd like to see if with more levels characters become the power-creep  mess they become with 3.5 or 4.

Edited to add a suggestion on healing
AC is an abstraction including damage resistance, so the slayer doing damage even on a 'miss' is they came up against the armour but did some damage anyway (maybe just with the impact). It's a bit hard to explain, but it's doable.

Does strike me as a bit 4e like though...

It does seem a bit odd to heal everything on a nights rest, but then again nobody likes the downtime created by having to spend weeks healing, and if you're that damaged if you have a healer in the party you'd just spend 3-4 nights before carrying on having the priest pray for as many cure spells as possible and cast them until everyone is healed up.
As they have stated that the aim is for people to attain the feel of any edition with modular rules, then a rules module that affects the day scale healing rates will be one I think we'll be sure to see.

And one I'd like to see. 
the renamed Healing Surges

Hardly. An average 4e Fighter can bring himself from bleeding out to full HP about three times a day without any outside assistance. Our pregen here can't even bring himself up to half HP from zero on an average roll, and only once.

So, if I read right a night's rest heals EVERYTHING????? This is rather silly, one of the things I did not like about 4e.
Maybe have the characters heal half a HD roll's total on a long rest and... no healing for short rests?

We tried it the other way back in February or so. It was terrible. You did one encounter, then barricaded the room and slept for two or three days solid just to get back to fighting strength.

Trust me, it's better this way. 

Slayer (the you hit even if you miss talent) which I find is a horrible example of disconnect.
I could/would never "explain" that at the table without somehow invoking magic.

The Slayer is just that damn good. He's so precise with that axe that even when he doesn't land a clean blow, he still manages to graze you.

There. Explained in two sentences, no magic involved. That wasn't even hard.

Mearls DID say the Fighter would be "the best at fighting". What did you expect?

Maybe change slayer to double maximum damage on a critical? Or critical hits on 19-20?

No, because those would damage the Fighter's main advantage, reliability. This Fighter is dealing damage every single round of every single fight, ever. The Wizard may be able to generate bigger punches when he needs to, but his reliability with those is low. The idea of this Fighter is that when you put him where he belongs, which is up in somebody's grill in a fight, he is the absolute, dead best at what he does, bar none.

I do think this Fighter (actually all of these classes) is incalculably, staggeringly boring, but there is no valid argument to be made about whether or not this Fighter lives up to the claims the L&L column made about him.

The character sheet is now simple, easy to read and concise, most of all I find it's newbie-friendly. Good Thing.

I'd agree, except that the Elfizard, Cleradin and Lazor Cleric are all going to be flipping back through the spell list in the book frequently.

People may have moaned about the "boring" power descriptions of 4e, and 4e's character sheet was a mess, but having all of your powers referenceable at your fingertips in card form was effective and damned efficient.
After your replies and a slightly more careful re-reading I've changed my mind about short rests, but I still have my doubts regarding long ones.
Maybe have a roll for long rests?
Short rests are at least mitigated by the fact that you require healing kits and that you may roll poorly.
I should play with the rules to get a more grounded opinion.

Regarding the dungeon barricades/dead time:

Barricading in dungeons is not recomendable.
What about wandering monsters or simply the reaction of the dungeon's dwellers? I guess the DM should keep these in mind. 
You should probably go back to town to rest (where other things might happen to tow the PCs into action BTW).

Also with such healing rules playing wouldn't an adventure where time is a limited comodity become too easy?
Like:
"Thorgaar the mighty we have to reach the Great wall of Qiinaa before the week is over or the defenders will be overrun by the troops of the Evil Overlord, but alas my friend you lie wounded in your bed on the brink of death!"
"No sweat pal, just gimme a day"
?

Regarding the Slayer:
The fact is that (no matter the level of abstraction of combat in D&D) I don't see it as very believeable that someone is so unerringly efficient without magic.
BTW after re-reading I guess this theme/feat could be taken by anyone, not just fighters.
So I guess it was not made to make the fighter more reliable or more efficient as a class.
Anyway it's not really a gripe with rules, I'm OK with such a mechanic, it's the fluff that somehow should justify that bothers me.
Again, playing at the table would probably make things clearer.

I just have to find a gaming group.


  • the renamed Healing Surges


So, if I read right a night's rest heals EVERYTHING????? This is rather silly, one of the things I did not like about 4e.
Maybe have the characters heal half a HD roll's total on a long rest and... no healing for short rests?




You misread it slightly. You can only take a long rest if you are already above zero hit points. Before you can take a long rest you must already have at least one hit point, so if you actually take a serious physical injury (which in DDN means that you are reduced to zero hit points) then you need to be either magically healed or you need to wait 2d6 hours for the physical injury to mostly heal itself at which point you are at one hit point and can start to take an 8 hour long rest from there.

In other words if you're knocked unconcious and there's no magical healing you basically need to take a double-long rest on average before you are fully healed. 




  • Slayer (the you hit even if you miss talent) which I find is a horrible example of disconnect.


I could/would never "explain" that at the table without somehow invoking magic.
Maybe change slayer to double maximum damage on a critical? Or critical hits on 19-20?



Again, you're misreading how hit points work in DDN. Hit points are not major physical injuries until you hit zero hit points, so the slayer doing automatic damage on a miss simply means that he is really good at continually wearing down an opponent's defenses even when he's not fighting at peak performance. It just means that the slayer will, eventually, wear his way through any defenses to get that final killing blow in.

So no magic involved, you just need to understand that hit point damage is mostly the wearing away of defenses, not actual physical injury.


Regarding the dungeon barricades/dead time:

Barricading in dungeons is not recomendable.
What about wandering monsters or simply the reaction of the dungeon's dwellers? I guess the DM should keep these in mind. 
You should probably go back to town to rest (where other things might happen to tow the PCs into action BTW).
.



This is a terrible idea. The reason you barricade is because your HP are so low if you don't you'll get killed the first round of your next encounter. Sending wandering monsters the party's way just kills them. It just ends the session. If you go back to town to rest, there's still a wandering monster you could deal with, in fact it's more likely than in a well barricaded room.

The current healing method is better, it's a bit unrealistic yeah, but the PCs are heroes, and it's a fantasy game.

Does strike me as a bit 4e like though...



And what exactly is the problem with that?
EVERY DAY IS HORRIBLE POST DAY ON THE D&D FORUMS. Everything makes me ANGRY (ESPECIALLY you, reader)

Does strike me as a bit 4e like though...



And what exactly is the problem with that?



In this case it's not that bad, but a lot of 4e abilities made absolutely no sense in the game world. If you were an in-world onlooker and saw a fighter mark a target and see him at 20' away deal damage to the target because it attacks someone else.... WTF?

That's the problem that some people are having with the reaper ability, it has that same level of "wha? I miss but deal damage?" that 4e introduced.

Does strike me as a bit 4e like though...



And what exactly is the problem with that?



In this case it's not that bad, but a lot of 4e abilities made absolutely no sense in the game world. If you were an in-world onlooker and saw a fighter mark a target and see him at 20' away deal damage to the target because it attacks someone else.... WTF?

That's the problem that some people are having with the reaper ability, it has that same level of "wha? I miss but deal damage?" that 4e introduced.



You don't 'miss' you slam your sword into their shield so hard their teeth ring.
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Reaper is Block damage.

Chipping away that last bit of stamina one shinkuu haduken at a time.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I think the HD healing thing will take some getting used to.  It will probably be a better mechanic when a PC has at least 3 or 4 levels.  Then there are choices to make...How many HD should I heal now?  What should I hold in reserve?  At first level, with only one HD of heal it really isn't much of a choice.

I still think that there should be a way to use a skill after a combat to regain some hit points without using a HD (a healing check of sorts to regain 1d4 per level or something), or parties will have to rely on potions, wands, staves, etc. to keep moving and avoid the short work day.

As for the Reaper ability, I really like it.  One of the most frustrating things about prior versions of the game was when a fighter missed and did no damage time after time.  Similarly, it was a joke in old games when our 18 strength fighter tried to open a stuck door and failed.  I like that D&D Next is incorporating rules to avoid the totally frustrating or unlikely failure.

Happy playtesting! 

A Brave Knight of WTF

 

Rhenny's Blog:  http://community.wizards.com/user/1497701/blog

 

 



This is a terrible idea. The reason you barricade...



We have differing views on DMing obviously


Does strike me as a bit 4e like though...



And what exactly is the problem with that?


Because it's not enough like 4e? I mean don't get me wrong, I'm all for moving forward, but from a cursory glance anyway it looks like they went "What if we took one of 4e's best mechanics and implemented it in the worst possible way? Like why not require another arbitrary item in order to utilize them because everyone loves dead weight. And instead of static numbers, players can roll, to recapture that magical feeling of foregoing doing anything useful on your turn to heal somebody a massive 2 hit points."

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
In this case it's not that bad, but a lot of 4e abilities made absolutely no sense in the game world. If you were an in-world onlooker and saw a fighter mark a target and see him at 20' away deal damage to the target because it attacks someone else.... WTF?


I was typing out a fairly long explanation for why this would never happen, but I didn't want it to be taken as edition warring.  Needless to say that this example can never happen in 4E.  Ever.

That's the problem that some people are having with the reaper ability, it has that same level of "wha? I miss but deal damage?" that 4e introduced.


Most "hits" in D&D are not solid hits.  They're glancing blows or they're parried or blocked or dodged.  They might draw some blood, but so does a papercut, and that's hardly life-threatening.

The abstract nature of hit points goes along with the abstract nature of the combat round.  It's not one attack every six seconds.  It's six seconds full of feints, thrusts, parries, blocks, and so on, all represented by a single die roll.  One of the things that drove me nuts about Neverwinter Nights, actually.  Playing a Fighter was visually boring, as you did one attack every six seconds.

In the case of Reaper, just being in combat with the Fighter is tiring.  His attacks seem to come from all directions.  He's very good at feinting, and the target realizes the true attack almost too late.  As said above, he hit the shield so hard, that the target felt like his forearm nearly broke.  Or maybe the target had to dodge in an awkward way, which threw off the rhythm of his fighting.  There are a lot of ways to make the ability make sense in the narrative.  You just have to embrace the abstraction of D&D combat.