how does "the game" know /"see" triggered abilities happening?(Undiscovered Paradise+Wake Thrasher)

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this question is a technical question about how "the game" (or what i think of "the MTG Computer" that is in control of making the games rules work) knows when a triggered ability has triggered. (this is in contrast to the practical "common sense" way that humans know when a triggered ability has triggered). i've always wondered about this, and now i'm taking the opportunity to ask!


this is an example that really motivates the question, from a recent Cranial Insertion article:


Q: Does Undiscovered Paradise actually untap after its ability has been used? My Wake Thrasher wants to know.

A: Whether it actually untaps is a philosophical question that I won't touch, but I do know that Wake Thrasher's ability won't trigger anyway. Wake Thrasher's trigger isn't a trigger that looks back in time like a leaves-the-battlefield trigger, so it looks immediately after the event to see if it triggered. Immediately after everything untaps, there isn't an Undiscovered Paradise around, so Wake Thrasher can't trigger off that.



the bolded part really confused me. firstly because it contradicts the result that i get when using the "human way" i look for triggers.



  • using the human way i look for triggers, the wake thrasher should trigger.
    ` first, there is a rule on gatherer for Undiscovered Paradise that seems to imply that the Undiscovered Paradise actually DOES untap, despite the Cranial Insertion article not wanting to touch the question of whether or not it does. (
    It will return even if some effect prevents you from untapping it. The ability is not replacing the untapping of the land in any way.

    )
    ` secondly, the "human way" i check for triggers is that  is that from the time a spell or ability starts to resolve to the time it finishes resolving, (and then after state-based actions are checked), i "keep track" of anything that has triggered during this entire time. then players get to place them on the stack].
    ` therefore i "see" the undiscovered paradise untapping and wake thrasher's ability should trigger. 


secondly, i simply don't understand the bolded part of the Cranial Insertion answer, including this mysterious rule about "looking back in time" that "leaves-the-battlefield triggers" such as "dies" triggers do.





so i'm wondering if you all could help me understand the following:
- why wake thrasher does not in fact trigger on undiscovered paradise untapping
- what this mysterious "looking back in time" rule for "leaves-the-battlefield" triggers mean, and how they work
- why the following example works, in terms of how "the game" actually "sees" or "knows" that a triggered ability has triggered, even "momentarily" in the middle of the spells resolution.

Example: A permanent's ability reads, "Whenever you have no cards in hand, draw a card." If its controller plays the last card from his or her hand, the ability will trigger once and won't trigger again until it has resolved (EDIT: pretend i didn't include this struck-through part, it's irrelevant). If its controller casts a spell that reads "Discard your hand, then draw that many cards," the ability will trigger during the spell's resolution because the player's hand was momentarily empty.

 


support from passages from the comprehensive rules would make me happy, if you can provide them. thank you very much!
I agree with you on the wake thrasher. Nothing on it says the permanent that untapped needs to remain on the battlefield so its ability should trigger from the undiscovered paradise when it untaps.  this has nothing to dowith looking back in time. 

Airdrop Condor is an example of looking back in time.  The sacrificed creature will have its power determined based on the last known information about it while it existed on the battlefield. If it had enchantments or instants that boostered or lowered its power when it was sacced those will be calculated in the ability from the Condor.  It will not look at the power printed on the card in the GY. Really, any card that says to sac it and that it then does something is "looking back" at the object it once was because it is referring to when it was a permanent. Acidic Sliver is an example.
@beyurslf:
are you saying, then, that
a) the Cranial Insertion answer is incorrect, as far as you understand the rules, and
b) its explanation about "triggers that look back in time" is very confusing, and you don't see what it means for triggers to look back in time?


i do understand the rule about "looking back in time" AS IT APPLIES TO "last known information" (ie needing to know information about an object that is no longer on the battlefiled), but i *don't* understand what "looking back in time" has to do with triggers at all? 
As far as I understand and from what I see on those cards, that article is wrong.  A rules guru may come along and show us why the article is right, but I don't see it. 

The last known information is the same for triggered or activated abilities. Like I said above, I don't know why it is relevent in this situation because i don't see what the article is trying to say is correct. It seems to me that wake thrasher should trigger when you untap something and its rules even say it triggers for the untap step. I don't see anything that says the permanent that became untapped needs to be on the battlefield for it to resolve so I don't know what the article is trying to say. The ability doesn't need to look back in time for the land to still be there--at least not that I can see 
'k, thanks for your input, beyruslf. hopefully some others might give their input, especially a rules guru!
On MTGO, Wake Thrasher triggers off of Undiscovered Paradise.

This doesn't mean that it's 100% correct, but it's generally pretty trustworthy.
Hmmm...let me use an analogy. Take a look at this smilie:  Does the image move?

It may look like it does--it looks like it's rolling around laughing. But technically, it isn't moving at all. What's happening is that the computer is showing you one still image, and then another slightly different still image, and then another, and another, all in rapid succession, and because your eyes and brain can't track the changes fast enough to register each individual image properly before the next arrives, they blend together to create the illusion of movement.

Magic works a lot like that. The game proceeds by "jumping" from one discrete, static state to another slightly different one--it goes from state A directly to state B directly to state C, without any actual time spent in between those points. Normal triggered abilities work by looking at the game state as it is now and asking it "Are there any triggered abilities in this state that should trigger based on the jump from the previous state to this one?" (The answer you quoted mentions triggers that "look back in time"--those are special types of triggered abilities that work slightly differently, because they wouldn't work otherwise. Those triggered abilities work by looking at the game state immediately prior to the current one and asking that game state "Are there any triggered abilities in this state that should trigger based on the jump from this state to the current one?". Those kinds of triggered abilities aren't important here, because Wake Thrasher's ability isn't one, but even if it was it wouldn't change the answer.)

So, getting back to Undiscovered Paradise. The game goes from "tapped Paradise on the battlefield", to "Paradise in your hand"--there's no point in between the two where the Paradise becomes untapped on the battlefield. Because of that, Wake Thrasher won't trigger, because as far as it can see there's no transition from tapped to untapped happening there.

Hope that helps!


The example of the empty hand trigger works because the game specifically forbids triggers that trigger on the current position of the game state (rather than an event, a transition from one state to another) from re-triggering as long as the first trigger remains on the stack. If the rules didn't do that, the game would end immediately as soon as such a trigger went off, because as soon as the trigger went onto the stack it would re-trigger--since the situation that led to it triggering would still be around--and re-trigger, and re-trigger, and nobody would ever be able to do anything ever again because the re-triggering would never stop.

603.8. Some triggered abilities trigger when a game state (such as a player controlling no permanents of a particular card type) is true, rather than triggering when an event occurs. These abilities trigger as soon as the game state matches the condition. They'll go onto the stack at the next available opportunity. These are called state triggers. (Note that state triggers aren't the same as state-based actions.) A state-triggered ability doesn't trigger again until the ability has resolved, has been countered, or has otherwise left the stack. Then, if the object with the ability is still in the same zone and the game state still matches its trigger condition, the ability will trigger again.

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@GainsBanding: huh, interesting! thanks for the info. btw, i absolutely love your avatar, cooperation's artwork always made me grin widely!


(if anyone can still explain why it works, and maybe what the Cranial Insertion article was trying to get at and/or what this "looking back in time" business for leaves-the-battlefield rule is, i'd appreciate it!) 
So, it is because the Paradise says to return it to your hand as you untap your permanents? If it said to return it to your hand during your untap step, then it would trigger?  I suppose it is worded carefully like that so you can't use its mana ability once before you return it to your hand...

Every once in awhile I come across a technical interaction that just feels very counter-intuitive and this is one of them for me. I see what you're saying, but man... 
@zammm: a meaty reply! (and what a fantasic educational use of one of the sillier emoticons, lol!)
i still have confusions about it, but your reply lets me point out specific confusions i have, so thanks :-)


questions:

1) suppose i believe that "the game" actually only looks at static states, and "deduces" the triggers that should have triggered by comparing such states. can you point something out in the comprehensive rules that can help convince me that this is actually how Magic works?
 
2) i'm still confused about these "looks back in time" triggers, vs normal triggers.


  • for a normal triggered ability, you said:
    Normal triggered abilities work by looking at the game state as it is now and asking it "Are there any triggered abilities in this state that should trigger based on the jump from the previous state to this one?"


  • for a "looks back in time" triggered ability, you said:
    -those are special types of triggered abilities that work slightly differently, because they wouldn't work otherwise. Those triggered abilities work by looking at the game state immediately prior to the current one and asking that game state "Are there any triggered abilities in this state that should trigger based on the jump from this state to the current one?"



but i don't see a difference! both kinds of triggered abilities compare the /current/ state with the one just prior to it!


3) i was confused about your explanation about the empty hand, because it didn't seem relevant. but then i looked at my quote and i realized i should have left out part of the quote! (so i've struck out the part of the example that is irrelevant). the remaining part of the example seems to refute your "Magic looks at discrete states" idea:
` the example says that if i play a card like Wheel of Fortune (where i discard my hand and then draw a bunch of cards), that my hand was momentarily empty, and so any trigger that says "when your hand is empty, do X" will trigger.
` but if i try to look at the states, there is a state before the Wheel resolves (ie where i have cards in my hand), and then the next state is right after the Wheel resolved (ie i have cards in my hand, still). so how can the game deduce that i ever had an empty hand, just by checking these two states?
@ Zamm:  Are you sure?  I can't find anything that says Undiscovered Paradise doesn't untap. 

The text Oracle "as you untap your permanents" is not exactly clear, but there's nothing in the text of the card or Gatherer rulings that say Undiscovered Paradise is excluded from the permanents that untap. 

One Gatherer ruling says "the ability is not replacing the untapping of the land in any way."  That is also vague and it's in reference to the land not being able to untap due to some other effect.  But it does make it sound like the possibility of it untapping is there.

I don't really know how to sub-divide the untap step, since there's no priority, but couldn't it go:
Lands tapped
Lands untapped
Undiscovered Paradise returns to your hand
The article is wrong, unfortunately. [C]Undiscovered Paradise[/C] does untap, it's not philosophical, and [C]Wake Thrasher[/C] does get its +1/+1.

---

Undiscovered Paradise's ability creates an effect that modifies what happens when you untap it. Normally, you would change it's orientation and its state would change from tapped to untapped. To that, the effect additionally causes Undiscovered Paradise to be returned to your hand. So yes, Undiscovered Paradise does untap. What it means to untap is what changed.

So that means Undiscovered Paradise does untap, and that means Wake Thrasher's ability triggers. Instantly. Immediately. But it doesn't do anything yet.

603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn’t do anything at this point.



At this point, Undiscovered Paradise is returned to your hand as part of the untapping already in progress. Soon after in the Upkeep Step, you will get priority and the previously triggered ability will be placed on the stack.

603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, “Timing and Priority.” The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.



Once the triggered ability ("Wake Thrasher gets +1/+1 until end of turn") resolves, your Wake Thrasher will get its +1/+1.

The game never looks back, but a laymen might say it does because the effect of Wake Thrasher's ability happened after Undiscovered Paradise was returned to its owner's hand. In a different step, even!

As pseudo-code:

  1. Your Untap Step


    1. Untap Undiscovered Paradise


      1. Change the card's orientation [normal]

      2. Change the permanent's state [normal]

      3. Return it to your hand [added by Undiscovered Paradise's ability]

      4. Your Wake Thrasher's ability triggers.


  2. Your Upkeep Step


    1. You get priority


      1. Wake Thrasher's previously triggered ability is placed on the stack

      2. The ability resolved, giving your Wake Thrasher +1/+1 until end of turn.

@zammm: a meaty reply! (and what a fantasic educational use of one of the sillier emoticons, lol!)
i still have confusions about it, but your reply lets me point out specific confusions i have, so thanks :-)


questions:

1) suppose i believe that "the game" actually only looks at static states, and "deduces" the triggers that should have triggered by comparing such states. can you point something out in the comprehensive rules that can help convince me that this is actually how Magic works?
 
2) i'm still confused about these "looks back in time" triggers, vs normal triggers.


  • for a normal triggered ability, you said:
    Normal triggered abilities work by looking at the game state as it is now and asking it "Are there any triggered abilities in this state that should trigger based on the jump from the previous state to this one?"


  • for a "looks back in time" triggered ability, you said:
    -those are special types of triggered abilities that work slightly differently, because they wouldn't work otherwise. Those triggered abilities work by looking at the game state immediately prior to the current one and asking that game state "Are there any triggered abilities in this state that should trigger based on the jump from this state to the current one?"



but i don't see a difference! both kinds of triggered abilities compare the /current/ state with the one just prior to it!


3) i was confused about your explanation about the empty hand, because it didn't seem relevant. but then i looked at my quote and i realized i should have left out part of the quote! (so i've struck out the part of the example that is irrelevant). the remaining part of the example seems to refute your "Magic looks at discrete states" idea:
` the example says that if i play a card like Wheel of Fortune (where i discard my hand and then draw a bunch of cards), that my hand was momentarily empty, and so any trigger that says "when your hand is empty, do X" will trigger.
` but if i try to look at the states, there is a state before the Wheel resolves (ie where i have cards in my hand), and then the next state is right after the Wheel resolved (ie i have cards in my hand, still). so how can the game deduce that i ever had an empty hand, just by checking these two states?

Wheel of Fortune won't trigger an empty hand condition because the game state isn't check while a spell or ability is resolving. 

Zamm is not saying that the land doesn't untap.  He is saying that as it untaps, it is returned to your hand so there is no time that the game sees that the land went from being tapped to being untapped.

I do have a question about that though.  wouldn't that be a delayed trigger on the Paradise?  How can it resolve without allowing the Wake time to trigger from the untap?  Or is it becuse the act of untapping causes the delayed trigger from the land to begin to resolve and no other ability can trigger then?
@beyurslf:


but what you just said:
Wheel of Fortune won't trigger an empty hand condition because the game state isn't check while a spell or ability is resolving.


seems to directly contradict the example i found in the comprehensive rules that i posted in my first post?

Example: A permanent's ability reads, "Whenever you have no cards in hand, draw a card." [....] If its controller casts a spell that reads "Discard your hand, then draw that many cards," the ability will trigger during the spell's resolution because the player's hand was momentarily
empty.


(i should have provided a link when i first posted this example, to where i got this. it's the provided example for rule 603.8 from here)

@ikegami & zammm:
 is it safe to say that the two of you have opposing views on a) the answer to the Wake Thrasher question, and b) how the game checks triggers?

ikegami says:

As soon as the Undiscovered Paradise untaps, Wake Thrasher's ability triggers.



603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn’t do anything at this point.




 



ie where it sounds like many "game events" happen /in the middle of resolution/, and triggered abilities know that they trigger by always "watching" the resolution of a spell or ability as it happens

whereas in contrast it seems that
zammm says:

that triggered abilities only know if they trigger by comparing the current "game state" with the one prior, and (if i'm understanding zammm correctly), there aren't many "game states" /during/ the resolution of a spell or an ability, but instead only a game state directly prior to the resolution of that spell or ability, and directly after.



is what i wrote here fair?
@beyurslf:


but what you just said:
Wheel of Fortune won't trigger an empty hand condition because the game state isn't check while a spell or ability is resolving.


seems to directly contradict the example i found in the comprehensive rules that i posted in my first post?

Example: A permanent's ability reads, "Whenever you have no cards in hand, draw a card." [....] If its controller casts a spell that reads "Discard your hand, then draw that many cards," the ability will trigger during the spell's resolution because the player's hand was momentarily
empty.



(i should have provided a link when i first posted this example, to where i got this. it's the provided example for rule 603.8 from here)


If Wheel can trigger an empty hand condition in the middle of resolution, then it really makes no sense that the Paradise doesn't trigger the Wake then. 
@beyurself: haha, *this is exactly my thoughts* lol!!

i really hope a rules guru can come and clear all this confusion up!! 
@beyurself: haha, *this is exactly my thoughts* lol!!

i really hope a rules guru can come and clear all this confusion up!! 




That's what I would call Zamm.
If Wheel can trigger an empty hand condition in the middle of resolution, then it really makes no sense that the Paradise doesn't trigger the Wake then. 

Resolving spells can have multiple steps to their resolution, and Wheel of Fortune is an example of that. It first instructs each player to discard his/her hand, then it instructs each player to draw 7 cards (which is really seven instructions to draw 1 card). Each of those intermediate steps is an actual game state which exists for a brief time before we execute the next instruction.

The untap step is not a resolving spell or ability. It has two instructions (technically, "turn-based actions"): First, handle phasing. Second, handle untapping. There is nothing in between. Undiscovered paradise says to return the card to your hand "as you untap your permanents" -- in other words, it modifies that second instruction. But that second instruction is still atomic; it is still a single instruction, just a more complex instruction.

@beyurslf:

haha, hopefully zammm will come back and answer my confusions about his/her response, then!

ikegami's answer makes sense to me:


  • it agrees with how i've been working with triggered abilities all this time, so it's a comfortable explanation for me

  • it agrees with the Wheel of Fortune example from the comprehensive rules that i posted


but unfortunately, it doesn't help me disprove the Cranial Insertion article's answer, or to disprove zammm's idea of how "the game" deduces triggered abilities only from comparing discrete game states.


zammm's answer intrigues me, and i'd like to learn more about it:


  • it's close to what i was guessing "the game" would have to check triggers for the Cranial Insertion article to be correct

  • it agrees with the Cranial Insertion article (which was written by a different rules judge) so it makes me think that zammm might actually be right (which would be exciting, because it's a new way Magic works that i never realized, and i like learning about this thing!)


but on the other hand, zamm's answer has a lot i don't understand (ie the questions i posted in reply to his/her post), and it seems to contradict the Wheel of Fortune example from the comprehensive rules.



i really hope zammm (or someone who agrees with his/her belief of how Magic runs things) will clarify the questions i posted in response to zammm's post, becuase this is very intriguing! 

Okay, this thread is apparently moving faster than I can draw up detailed responses--I guess I'll just go through post by post to make sure I'm not hopping around like the march hare. Please be patient--it'll take a while to catch up.

1) suppose i believe that "the game" actually only looks at static states, and "deduces" the triggers that should have triggered by comparing such states. can you point something out in the comprehensive rules that can help convince me that this is actually how Magic works?

It's not formally laid out in the CR, but you can construct it from 603.6d:
603.6d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially. Leaves-the-battlefield abilities, abilities that trigger when a permanent phases out, abilities that trigger when an object that all players can see is put into a hand or library, abilities that trigger specifically when an object becomes unattached, abilities that trigger when a player loses control of an object, and abilities that trigger when a player planeswalks away from a plane will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward. The game has to "look back in time" to determine if these abilities trigger.


 
2) i'm still confused about these "looks back in time" triggers, vs normal triggers.

[...]

but i don't see a difference! both kinds of triggered abilities compare the /current/ state with the one just prior to it!

They do, but the difference is which of those two states the trigger is coming from.

It'd probably help if I gave an example: Perilous Myr. This is a "lookback" trigger, so let's try comparing how it would work as a normal trigger and how it actually functions. Let's say Doom Blade resolves and kills off your Perilous Myr. So we have two states: the prior game state, which has the Myr on the battlefield, and the current game state, which has the Myr in the graveyard.

If we ask the current game state if there's any triggered abilities around that would trigger, it'll actually say no. Because are there any triggered abilities in the current game state that would trigger on the Myr dying? No! Sure there's a Myr in the graveyard, but it can't trigger, because abilities of permanents don't function while the card they're on is in the graveyard. (Generally speaking--there are exceptions, but none of them apply here.) So there is no ability that is functioning in the current game state that would trigger on that transition.

But if we ask the prior game state if there's any triggered abilities around that would trigger, it'll say yes. Because in the prior game state, the Myr is on the battlefield and therefore its ability is functioning, and that ability wants to trigger on the Myr dying.

Does that make sense?

3) i was confused about your explanation about the empty hand, because it didn't seem relevant. but then i looked at my quote and i realized i should have left out part of the quote! (so i've struck out the part of the example that is irrelevant). the remaining part of the example seems to refute your "Magic looks at discrete states" idea:
` the example says that if i play a card like Wheel of Fortune (where i discard my hand and then draw a bunch of cards), that my hand was momentarily empty, and so any trigger that says "when your hand is empty, do X" will trigger.
` but if i try to look at the states, there is a state before the Wheel resolves (ie where i have cards in my hand), and then the next state is right after the Wheel resolved (ie i have cards in my hand, still). so how can the game deduce that i ever had an empty hand, just by checking these two states?

Your frames-per-second rate is too slow. ;) In other words, you're making too big a jump. You're going from before the Wheel starts resolving to after it finishes resolving, but there are more transitions in between that. The procession of game states isn't "before Wheel starts resolving"-->"after Wheel finishes resolving".

It's actually "before Wheel starts resolving"-->"your hand is empty"-->"you have one card in hand"-->"you have two cards in hand"-->"you have three cards in hand"-->"you have four cards in hand"-->"you have five cards in hand"-->"you have six cards in hand"-->"you have seven cards in hand"-->"after Wheel finishes resolving". And that second state there triggers the empty-hand ability.

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cyphern says:

Resolving spells can have multiple steps to their resolution, and Wheel of Fortune is an example of that. It first instructs each player to discard his/her hand, then it instructs each player to draw 7 cards -- which is really seven instructions to draw 1 card. Each of those intermediate steps is an actual game state which exists for a brief time before we execute the next instruction.



thanks cyphern for giving me your idea on what a "game state" is. i NEVER KNEW that a new "game state" happened between each "instruction" in the resolution of a spell or ability!!


if what you're saying is true, this makes the Wheel of Fortune example compatible with zummm's idea of how "the game" works with triggered abilities (ie by comparing various "game states")!!




The untap step is not a resolving spell or ability. It has two instructions: First, handle phasing. Second, handle untapping. There is nothing in between. Undiscovered paradise says to return the card to your hand "as you untap your permanents" -- in other words, it modifies that second instruction. But that second instruction is still atomic; it is still a single instruction, just a more complex instruction.



this still doesn't explain to me why the Wake Thrasher doesn't trigger off of the Undiscovered Paradise untapping, though, assuming ikegami's interpretation is true?
` that is, if we believe ikegami's interpretation is correct, this means that Undiscovered Paradise DOES untap (ie untap usually means "turn the card's orientation right side up", and now untapping Undiscovered Paradise means the same thing, but also added to it is "return Undiscovered Paradise to its owner's hand". but it's still untapping, even though the meaning of "untap" means something different).

however, if ikegami's intepretation is indeed false, and the game actually does "deduce" what triggered by comparing game states, then i can believe why the Cranial Insertion article is correct.


(still doesn't help me understand the "looks back in time" triggers, though :-) )
 
@ikegami & zammm:
 is it safe to say that the two of you have opposing views [...] is what i wrote here fair?



Your assessment of my view is accurate. I don't see anything in the rules that say triggered abilities stop "looking" during the resolution of a spell or ability. As such, triggered abilities *do* trigger during spell resolution, just like 603.2 says.  The example in 603.8 confirms.
@ Zamm:  Are you sure?  I can't find anything that says Undiscovered Paradise doesn't untap. 

The text Oracle "as you untap your permanents" is not exactly clear, but there's nothing in the text of the card or Gatherer rulings that say Undiscovered Paradise is excluded from the permanents that untap.

Yes, I'm sure. The Paradise isn't excluded from the set of permanents that untap--it's just that you're being instructed to both untap it and to return it to your hand at the exact same time--that is, as part of the same event--so you go from tapped Paradise to Paradise in your hand.

ikegami, you're unfortunately incorrect. You're assuming that the untapping involves a sequence of actions being taken in series--this happens, then this, then this--, but that's not true. It's simultaneous. You're creating an order where none exists.

I do have a question about that though.  wouldn't that be a delayed trigger on the Paradise?  How can it resolve without allowing the Wake time to trigger from the untap?  Or is it becuse the act of untapping causes the delayed trigger from the land to begin to resolve and no other ability can trigger then?

Undiscovered Paradise does not use a delayed triggered ability. It basically works by changing the game's normal rules for the untap step.

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@ikegami & zammm:
 is it safe to say that the two of you have opposing views [...] is what i wrote here fair?



Your assessment of my view is accurate. I don't see anything in the rules that say triggered abilities stop "looking" during the resolution of a spell or ability. As such, triggered abilities *do* trigger during spell resolution, just like 603.2 says.  The example in 603.8 confirms.

Note that even though the example from 603.8 helps answer your original question, 603.8 itself doesn't apply to Wake Thrasher's ability since Wake Thrasher's ability looks for an event ("a permanent you control becomes untapped"), not a game state.
i am totally getting that excited feeling that happens when i'm really learning stuff!! :D :D :D

zammm, you're responses are making all these contradicting viewpoints suddenly harmonize! i'll wait until you finish responding, and then i'll respond.


but man, the comprehensive rules passage you quoted, although it clears SO much up, .. is really not at all the way i thought the game worked, lol, and seems far more complicated than the "human" way i thought the game worked! there must be a reason for this, but maybe that's best left to the meta-rules forum for me to ask (if i do gather the courage to ask!) 
@ikegami & zammm:
 is it safe to say that the two of you have opposing views on a) the answer to the Wake Thrasher question, and b) how the game checks triggers?

We definitely disagree, yes, but you slightly misstated my explanation here--as cyphern pointed out and I explained after this post was made, there's more game states than just "before the spell" and "after the spell".


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[O]fficially, the Wake Thrasher will not trigger for the Paradise. During the untap step, the tapped Paradise moves from "being tapped" to "in it's owner's hand". That's all a single event. Since it goes from being tapped to in your hand, the Thrasher will not trigger for the Paradise.

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DCI Level 2 Judge

Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

The text Oracle "as you untap your permanents" is not exactly clear



Actually, it's quite clear. "as you [do something]" is repeatedly used to mean "as part of [doing something]". (See Splice for an example. The casting of the spell isn't replaced.)

ikegami, you're unfortunately incorrect. You're assuming that the untapping involves a sequence of actions being taken in series--this happens, then this, then this--, but that's not true. It's simultaneous. You're creating an order where none exists.



No, I made no such assumption. The pseudo-code I posted might have implied it, but that was not intentional. I fully agree they all the actions happen simulateneously.

"To untap Undiscovered Paradise, simulatenously return it to your hand, change its orientation and change its game state." If you've done that, you've untapped a permanent. If you've untapped a permanent, you've triggered Wake Thrasher.

I do have a question about that though.  wouldn't that be a delayed trigger on the Paradise?



It's not a delayed trigger. (CR 603.7. An effect may create a delayed triggered ability that can do something at a later time. A delayed triggered ability will contain “when,” “whenever,” or “at,” although that word won’t usually begin the ability.)

It's a Continuous Effects that modifes the Untap step. (CR 611.1. A continuous effect modifies characteristics of objects, modifies control of objects, or affects players or the rules of the game, for a fixed or indefinite period.)

Again, the modification does not prevent the untapping. The untapping still occurs. It just changes what happens as part of untapping.

[edit: okay, so we got an [O]fficial answer as i was typing this up! so we know what the right answer is.
but i'm the type of person who likes to learn /why/ (and why the wrong answers are wrong!). anyone would like to help me learn this stuff?]



ikegami wrote:

Note that even though the example from 603.8 helps answer your original question, 603.8 itself doesn't apply to Wake Thrasher's ability since Wake Thrasher's ability looks for an event ("a permanent you control becomes untapped"), not a game state.



ikegami, are you saying that the event "Undiscovered Paradise untaps and return Undiscovered Paradise to its owner's hand" DOES happen, and so will trigger Wake Thrasher's triggered ability (ie because that triggered ability is looking for any event where a permanent you control untaps)?


i'm still confused about who is right about how triggered abilities are checked by the game.

ikegami's idea seems supported by some parts of the comprehensive rules, such as 603.2
603.2  Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn’t do anything at this point.

 

but zammm's idea seems supported by other parts of the comprehensive rules (such as the passage s/he posted earlier)



(edit: i'm wondering if maybe i need to understand better what a "game event" or a "game state" is, to understand if zammm's understanding of how "the game" knows a triggered ability triggered is true, or if (if i'm understanding him/her correctly) how ikagemi's understanding is true. although it does seem that the [O]fficial ruling supports zammm's paradigm, i still am curious to see why ikegami's is wrong, because it seems to still be supported by the comp rules?)
[O]fficially, the Wake Thrasher will not trigger for the Paradise. During the untap step, the tapped Paradise moves from "being tapped" to "in it's owner's hand". That's all a single event. Since it goes from being tapped to in your hand, the Thrasher will not trigger for the Paradise.



If "Becoming untapped" didn't happen, that means it would have happened after the change of orientation and the move to the hand, which means it wasn't simultaneous.  But you said it was simulatenous. ...?!?
i am totally getting that excited feeling that happens when i'm really learning stuff!! :D :D :D

Glad to hear it.

zammm, you're responses are making all these contradicting viewpoints suddenly harmonize! i'll wait until you finish responding, and then i'll respond.

I seem to be done now, so go ahead. ;)

Pre-post edit: Orrrr not. Making another post...

but man, the comprehensive rules passage you quoted, although it clears SO much up, .. is really not at all the way i thought the game worked, lol, and seems far more complicated than the "human" way i thought the game worked! there must be a reason for this, but maybe that's best left to the meta-rules forum for me to ask (if i do gather the courage to ask!) 

That's actually a pretty common reaction, but you're right--there is a reason for it.

Magic is played in highly competitive tournaments; it wants any rules question to have an absolutely, unquestionably, 100% correct answer--an answer that will be the same in all games everywhere, no matter where you're playing or who's enforcing the rules. It doesn't want wiggle room and ambiguous wording that might lead to arguments or disagreements or people playing by different rules in different tournaments. So because of that, the rules strive to be as computer-program-like as possible, to cover absolutely everything. But when the rules are absolute, you're always going to have situations where what happens doesn't quite match up with what you'd expect--absolute rules by definition can't contradict themselves, but people's expectations do that all the time.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

[edit: okay, so we got an [O]fficial answer as i was typing this up! so we know what the right answer is.
but i'm the type of person who likes to learn /why/ (and why the wrong answers are wrong!). anyone would like to help me learn this stuff?]

I will.

(such as the passage s/he posted earlier)

He, but thanks for being gender-inclusive.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

ikegami, are you saying that the event "Undiscovered Paradise untaps and return Undiscovered Paradise to its owner's hand"



I never said there was two events. I said "return Undiscovered Paradise to its owner's hand" is *part of* "Undiscovered Paradise untaps" (and the judge agreed), which means Undiscovered Paradise became untapped (to which the judge disagrees).

Basically, the judge is saying "becomes untapped" actually means "has become untapped". In English, those means different things. In Magic, apparently not.

oh, but one question that probably can be cleared up very quickly:

if the list of "looks back in time" triggered abilities listed in 603.6d also included "triggered abilities that involve a permanent untapping", then the Wake Thrasher WOULD get the bonus?

and if the answer is yes, is it because the game would see the following two game states:



  • GAME STATE 1: Undiscovered Paradise is tapped on the battlefield
    GAME STATE 2: Undiscovered Paradise is no longer on the battlefield.

    but also the game "saw" the event happen : "EVENT: Undiscovered Paradise untaps and returns to hand (in one single event)",

    and so the "lookback trigger" would see Wake Thrasher's ability in GAME STATE 1, and "see" the event happen (only because it's a "look-back" triggered ability that is checking) , and therefore would trigger?



if my above analysis is correct, then the game /doesn't/ deduce triggers by ONLY looking at game states, but that "lookback" triggers DO see the events that happened in between game states?
 

and if the answer is no, is it because


  • all events that trigger triggered abilities aren't seen directly, but ONLY deduced by comparing game states that happened one after the other? 





i know i may be confusing things a bit here, but it's only 'cause i want to learn these interesting rules. (i hope i'm not being too annoying)
it replaces the untapping and puts the land in your hand instead

that's why waketrasher doesn't get the bonus.
proud member of the 2011 community team
Basically, the judge is saying "becomes untapped" actually means "has become untapped". In English, those means different things. In Magic, apparently not.


Well, either that or the judgement assumes Wake Thrasher triggers on a game state (thus subject to 603.8) even though "becoming something" is clearly an event, not a state, and thus shouldn't be subject to 603.8.

if the list of "looks back in time" triggered abilities listed in 603.6d also included "triggered abilities that involve a permanent untapping", then the Wake Thrasher WOULD get the bonus?

Nope.

and if the answer is no, is it because


  • all events that trigger triggered abilities aren't seen directly, but ONLY deduced by comparing game states that happened one after the other? 


i know i may be confusing things a bit here, but it's only 'cause i want to learn these interesting rules. (i hope i'm not being too annoying)

Not quite. It's actually because of this rule--the bolded part lays out exactly how:
603.2d Some trigger events use the word "becomes" (for example, "becomes tapped" or "becomes blocked"). These trigger only at the time the named event happens -- they don't trigger if that state already exists or retrigger if it persists. Similarly, they don't trigger if an object enters a zone in that state.
Example: An ability that triggers when a permanent "becomes tapped" triggers only when the status of a permanent that's already on the battlefield changes from untapped to tapped.


The Paradise doesn't go from "on the battlefield tapped" to "on the battlefield untapped". So no matter from which direction you're looking at it, it still doesn't trigger.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

enigma256 said:
it replaces the untapping and puts the land in your hand instead

that's why waketrasher doesn't get the bonus.



but enigma, there is a ruling on gatherer that seems to contradict what you just wrote:
It will return even if some effect prevents you from untapping it. The ability is not replacing the untapping of the land in any way.

 

the reason why Wake Thrasher doesn't get the bonus would be simple if what you wrote was true, though, lol
it replaces the untapping and puts the land in your hand instead



No, it clearly doesn't replace untapping because you can't do "A" as you do "B" if you do "A" instead of "B". "Sing a song as you walk" vs "Sing a song instead of walking" are undeniably different.
hehe, it's so delightful when things start to harmonize!
it's like the feeling when working on a difficult math puzzle, and after half an hour, you find the insight that suddenly MAKES EVERYTHING MAKE SENSE, lol!!

anyways, zammm, what you just wrote harmonizes with ikegami's puzzlement on "becomes untapped" vs "has untapped" question, i'm thinking? (@ikegami: did the bolded part of the comp rules that zammm posted answer completely your puzzlement, btw?)



still not completely sure what a "game event" is (ie this is important to triggered abilities that want to match not always just a "game state" but also sometimes a "game event"), but maybe this is something i need to research on my own [unless the idea is easily explained and you guys can explain it here]