Heavy Armor

The price and downfalls really don't match the amount of protection it gives. I think the best solution would be 1,2,3,4 damage reduction, respectively. quick, easy, and fun.
I know this is in poor taste but...“4th edition - bad enough to kill Gary Gygax.”
The price and downfalls really don't match the amount of protection it gives. I think the best solution would be 1,2,3,4 damage reduction, respectively. quick, easy, and fun.



Did you post this in another thread?  I feel like I've read this somewhere...

But anyway, I completely agree!  That's one thing that SLIGHTLY worried me - having a rogue with a high dex dominate when it comes to AC (nothing against rogues or other light-armored fella's.  I just feel that this may gimp fighters and others who don heavy armor later in the game).  Adding damage reduction to heavy armors would give it extra appeal while balancing the bonuses from lighter armor.

I think a good solution would be to add either your Con or Str mod to heavy armor, to showcase that fighting in these types of armor is more about absorbing the impact, or wearing your opponent out. Making it Str would also offset the advantage of a Lightly armored highly mobile dex warrior using a finess weapon, by allowing the brute force types to also make double use of their primary stat.
Oooh!  I kinda like that idea!  I think both suggestions (DR vs STR/CON) would be great solutions to balancing things out!
I think a good solution would be to add either your Con or Str mod to heavy armor, to showcase that fighting in these types of armor is more about absorbing the impact, or wearing your opponent out. Making it Str would also offset the advantage of a Lightly armored highly mobile dex warrior using a finess weapon, by allowing the brute force types to also make double use of their primary stat.

Yeah, but that just makes heavy armor overpowered. It'll scale far too well. I think the DR is modest enough not to be overwhelming, but good enough not to underwhelm.
I know this is in poor taste but...“4th edition - bad enough to kill Gary Gygax.”
Either that or up their Hit Dice. I can gladly see a d6 Rogue up against a d12 Fighter or Barbarian (not using Heavy Armor, but allowed their partial Dex for Medium Armor). AC vs HP would be a good balance for me. Still reading the book over, though (kinda got it later tonight).
I would definitely favor DR myself (perhaps 1 pt for medium armor, 2 pt for heavy armor).  If getting stone drunk can grant you damage resistance in this version then strapping on heavy pieces of metal certainly should.
I would definitely favor DR myself (perhaps 1 pt for medium armor, 2 pt for heavy armor).  If getting stone drunk can grant you damage resistance in this version then strapping on heavy pieces of metal certainly should.

Meduim armor doesn't need any buffs.
I know this is in poor taste but...“4th edition - bad enough to kill Gary Gygax.”
Either that or up their Hit Dice. I can gladly see a d6 Rogue up against a d12 Fighter or Barbarian (not using Heavy Armor, but allowed their partial Dex for Medium Armor). AC vs HP would be a good balance for me. Still reading the book over, though (kinda got it later tonight).


Consider me a dunce. Sorry. Just now looking at the Dwarven Fighter and seeing the HD is now d12. Well, at least I feel better about playing a Fighter.
Meduim armor doesn't need any buffs.

I think Medium Armor does need a buff to be competition for Light. 

* Studded Leather is cheaper and lighter then Ringmail for the same base AC and a full dex bonus.
* Chain Shirt costs only 1/3 more (a fairly token 25gp) then Scale and is lighter for the same base AC and a full dex bonus.
* At least Mithral Chain costs a lot more then Splint (2000gp), but its less then a quarter the weight and as the rest of these cases gives the full dex bonus.

Add that Medium has the same "Armor and Stealth" penalty as Heavy and fewer class restrictions and it is just really unattractive compared to Light so it needs help just as Heavy does.
I can only take a thought here by saying that perhaps there is a need to: a) Increase the AC of the Medium Armors, b) Decrease resistance of some sort of Light Armor (make it easier to damage the Light Armor than Medium armor by a significant amount so that Medium Armor wearers would have reason to choose it over Light Armor) or c) Increase the effectiveness of using Medium Armor by allowing some advantage (such as more resistant to attacks, but not as much as Heavy Armor? Can provide additional stability against charges or heavy attacks like two-handed?). Just my thoughts on it.
Some form of DR is basically the best solution proposed to the problem, since too much AC can break the math and make it just a matter of only being damaged by criticals.

I like the idea of Con bonus to DR, but I feel like armors ought to have their DR inherent to the armor type for the sake of armor making sense in comparison to the physical properties of real-world armor. Plus if Con gives a DR bonus, why does it only work with certain armors? It would be cool to have some option to have Con-based DR at high levels, but I think for armor the DR values should be flat based on armor type.

No idea what to do for medium armor, I do agree it's not useful to very many characters compared to light/heavy but I'm not sure there's a good solution to that.
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I think no-magic armour could have got damage reduction (but if only 1 there´s no point).

Other option would be armours could have got different levels of qualty (the cheapest ones would be the easiest to be broken). 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Break items dont look like a fun rule.


DR is a Ok solution.
CON for some armours and not the others doesnt make sense.

Maybe some discount on magic to heavy armor? "AC bonus to heavy armor cost half"

 
146518563 wrote:
And then Martial was a new exciting new source of power, its practitioners manipulating the energies emanating from the plane of oiled-up burly weightlifters.
I'm definitely of the opinion that Heavy Armor needs some sort of DR added to it to keep it competitive, unless you alter it to add STR or CON to AC rather than DEX.

Medium Armor...I can't see any reason to ever wear it. Assuming you have a DEX of 12 or better, every Light Armor is superior to its Medium counterpart
What if any feats could made heavy armors a better defense bonus?

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

What if any feats could made heavy armors a better defense bonus?

I don't like that idea. It limits a lot of character concepts, and forces you to take a feat to use it effectively. I still think the 1,2,3,4 DR for each type of heavy armor is the best idea.
I know this is in poor taste but...“4th edition - bad enough to kill Gary Gygax.”
What if any feats could made heavy armors a better defense bonus?

I don't like that idea. It limits a lot of character concepts, and forces you to take a feat to use it effectively. I still think the 1,2,3,4 DR for each type of heavy armor is the best idea.



I will almost certainly houserule this after I playtest the rules as written.


DR for heavy armor is great. 
I've found with other games, damage reduction was both cumbersome and irritating. You can have solid attacks that just do nothing. I'm not so sure that is a solid way to go for the armor.
What do you think about the idea the amor with best quality made by the best (and expensive) blacksmith could have got a no-magical improvement, extra hitpoints. (I suposse it wouldn´t worse to break the balance of power that a bag full of healing potions).  

And what if a fighter could "sacrifice" hitpoints of a shield to "avoid" damage (or only lethal damage became no-lethal)? The shield is destroyed but the heroe save the life. Yes, I can imagine it, all day collecting enemies´ shields to be destroyed time after time. (But it could be a daily martial power).


* I have just though it. Let´s suposse modularity allows nolethal damage, what it can be healed easier. What if amours could have got "softened damage", it would be like damage reduction but only lethal damage became nolethal (and character can recover/get over sooner).

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Is damage reduction an inherently "D&D" type of thing?  I've seen enough on here to agree that the armour mechanic and bonuses need to be looked at and scaled a little more clearly, but I'm not sure that adding another stat to armor is the way to go.
Is damage reduction an inherently "D&D" type of thing?  I've seen enough on here to agree that the armour mechanic and bonuses need to be looked at and scaled a little more clearly, but I'm not sure that adding another stat to armor is the way to go.

Yeah, it is. It's also a very quick and easy fix. That non-lethal bit said before is just too many exra rules, and everyone knows how DR works. And too much AC is vastly overpowering.
I know this is in poor taste but...“4th edition - bad enough to kill Gary Gygax.”
The only advantage I see currently to heavy armor is that it's good for someone that used Dex as a dump stat.  Since there's no dex bonus (or penalty) they use the straight AC, whereas if they'd gone with light or medium, they would have an AC penalty from their low Dex.
DR for the win.  It's the best solution I have read thus far, and personally I always though armor should grant DR rather than just make you harder to hit.  I mean really the dude in Full Plate is easier to hit, but much harder to damage.
The only advantage I see currently to heavy armor is that it's good for someone that used Dex as a dump stat.  Since there's no dex bonus (or penalty) they use the straight AC, whereas if they'd gone with light or medium, they would have an AC penalty from their low Dex.


That is, in fact, the advantage. That's... really always been the advantage... If you wanted to play a dex based swashbuckling fighter, Inigo Montoya style, light armor would appropriately be the better option. But if you want the bigger damage dice from the non-finesse weapons, you have to sacrifice a little AC so you can have the strength to hit with them. I really don't see the issue, this seems both logical and balanced.
DR for the win.  It's the best solution I have read thus far, and personally I always though armor should grant DR rather than just make you harder to hit.  I mean really the dude in Full Plate is easier to hit, but much harder to damage.


Which is why Fighters, the people who generally sacrifice Dex in favor of strength and con, have more hit points. Heavy armor is more how they compensate for being bad at dodging attacks.
The only advantage I see currently to heavy armor is that it's good for someone that used Dex as a dump stat.  Since there's no dex bonus (or penalty) they use the straight AC, whereas if they'd gone with light or medium, they would have an AC penalty from their low Dex.



I wouldn't count out the penalty remaining for low DEX. and there is no logic to remove it in the first place.

heavy armor inhibits you to move fast but if you're slow as turtle to begin with, the armor will NOT improve your speed up to average.(non magical armor at least). 
The only advantage I see currently to heavy armor is that it's good for someone that used Dex as a dump stat.  Since there's no dex bonus (or penalty) they use the straight AC, whereas if they'd gone with light or medium, they would have an AC penalty from their low Dex.


That is, in fact, the advantage. That's... really always been the advantage... If you wanted to play a dex based swashbuckling fighter, Inigo Montoya style, light armor would appropriately be the better option. But if you want the bigger damage dice from the non-finesse weapons, you have to sacrifice a little AC so you can have the strength to hit with them. I really don't see the issue, this seems both logical and balanced.



That's the point I was attempting to make, I think I just worded my first post poorly.  The benefit of heavy armor is AC unmodified by low dex, whereas the light and medium benefit from having a dex bonus.
The only advantage I see currently to heavy armor is that it's good for someone that used Dex as a dump stat.  Since there's no dex bonus (or penalty) they use the straight AC, whereas if they'd gone with light or medium, they would have an AC penalty from their low Dex.


That is, in fact, the advantage. That's... really always been the advantage... If you wanted to play a dex based swashbuckling fighter, Inigo Montoya style, light armor would appropriately be the better option. But if you want the bigger damage dice from the non-finesse weapons, you have to sacrifice a little AC so you can have the strength to hit with them. I really don't see the issue, this seems both logical and balanced.



That's the point I was attempting to make, I think I just worded my first post poorly.  The benefit of hvy armor is AC unmodified by low dex, whereas the light and medium benefit from having a dex bonus.


Ok, cool, we're on the same page then 
The thing is, dex based fighters out perform strength based fighters 100% in this system. Finesse weapons + light armor means you have a higher AC, without sacrificing damage.
I know this is in poor taste but...“4th edition - bad enough to kill Gary Gygax.”
The thing is, dex based fighters out perform strength based fighters 100% in this system. Finesse weapons + light armor means you have a higher AC, without sacrificing damage.


How do you figure? The highest damage die for a finesse weapon is 1d6 for one handed, 1d8 for two handed. For martial and heavy weapons, which require strength, you get 1d8 for one handed, 1d12 for two handed.

You're not sacrificing accuracy, but you are sacrificing damage. 
The thing is, dex based fighters out perform strength based fighters 100% in this system. Finesse weapons + light armor means you have a higher AC, without sacrificing damage.



I haven't had a chance to play yet, that's tomorrow.  But I do see where you're coming from just by reading over the material.

Balancing that part of the game looks like it's something that will need to be done.  But you would need at least +3 dex mod to be even with the equivalent heavy armor.  Plus we've only seen the first palytest.  When more is released, there may be heavy armor feats that make it a worthwhile investment, such as DR (which I do think would be a good feat for heavy armor).  The pregened characters and quick start rules aren't something to judge the entirety of the game on, even though I know it's all we have for now.

Hopefully in the future, as they release more playtest rules, we can see the benefits of heavy armor str fighters vs light armor dex fighters.


How do you figure? The highest damage die for a finesse weapon is 1d6 for one handed, 1d8 for two handed. For martial and heavy weapons, which require strength, you get 1d8 for one handed, 1d12 for two handed.

You're not sacrificing accuracy, but you are sacrificing damage. 

 

This as well, I didn't even take into account the damage difference between finesse and strength weapons.
The thing is, dex based fighters out perform strength based fighters 100% in this system. Finesse weapons + light armor means you have a higher AC, without sacrificing damage.



I haven't had a chance to play yet, that's tomorrow.  But I do see where you're coming from just by reading over the material.

Balancing that part of the game looks like it's something that will need to be done.  But you would need at least +3 dex mod to be even with the equivalent heavy armor.  Plus we've only seen the first palytest.  When more is released, there may be heavy armor feats that make it a worthwhile investment, such as DR (which I do think would be a good feat for heavy armor).  The pregened characters and quick start rules aren't something to judge the entirety of the game on, even though I know it's all we have for now.

Hopefully in the future, as they release more playtest rules, we can see the benefits of heavy armor str fighters vs light armor dex fighters.


How do you figure? The highest damage die for a finesse weapon is 1d6 for one handed, 1d8 for two handed. For martial and heavy weapons, which require strength, you get 1d8 for one handed, 1d12 for two handed.

You're not sacrificing accuracy, but you are sacrificing damage. 

 

This as well, I didn't even take into account the damage difference between finesse and strength weapons.


Yep, you pretty much have to be a dedicated dex combatant to actually have a higher AC bonus with light armor, wich either means sacrificing damage (because finesse weapons are weaker) or you can try to play both sides of the field and do co-primary abilities instead of primary and secondary, but then you're going to have to give up something else, likely HP due to a lower con score, or just being butt ugly or something. I mean, if you're rolling stats you could always get lucky, but that says more about the unreliability of rolling to determine ability scores than it does about the balance of the armor table.
I really don't understand why everyone is so surprised by this, isn't this always how D&D has worked? The advantage of light armor is you get to add your dex, the advantage of heavy armor is that you don't have to. I guess being able to actually have a higher AC with light armor might be throwing people off, but that's really how it should be anyway. Dex based characters are good ad dodging, they should be harder to hit, while the guys with better armor should be able to take more hits. Which they can, cause they have more HP.
The thing is, dex based fighters out perform strength based fighters 100% in this system. Finesse weapons + light armor means you have a higher AC, without sacrificing damage.



I haven't had a chance to play yet, that's tomorrow.  But I do see where you're coming from just by reading over the material.

Balancing that part of the game looks like it's something that will need to be done.  But you would need at least +3 dex mod to be even with the equivalent heavy armor.  Plus we've only seen the first palytest.  When more is released, there may be heavy armor feats that make it a worthwhile investment, such as DR (which I do think would be a good feat for heavy armor).  The pregened characters and quick start rules aren't something to judge the entirety of the game on, even though I know it's all we have for now.

Hopefully in the future, as they release more playtest rules, we can see the benefits of heavy armor str fighters vs light armor dex fighters.


How do you figure? The highest damage die for a finesse weapon is 1d6 for one handed, 1d8 for two handed. For martial and heavy weapons, which require strength, you get 1d8 for one handed, 1d12 for two handed.

You're not sacrificing accuracy, but you are sacrificing damage. 

 

This as well, I didn't even take into account the damage difference between finesse and strength weapons.

The pregen fighter has 16 strength. I'm assuming it'd be just as easy to get a 16 dex. All you're really sacrificing by being a dex fighter is an average of around 2 damage by using a quarterstaff instead of a greataxe, but you don't have to pay out the butt for the heavy armor, and you don't get the slew of penalties for using the heavy armor. Heck, a dex based fighter is still better using medium armor then a strength based one in heavy, since they'll have the same ac without the movement penalty. There isn't really a mechanical reason to use heavy armor, and making so you have to invest feats into using heavy armor on par with light or medium just makes it more expensive for a character to use. The DR built into the armor doesn't cause AC bloat, and makes it so you don't take a feat tax to use. Sure, having heavy armor feats will be great, but don't make it so heavy armor is flat out unappealing otherwise.
I know this is in poor taste but...“4th edition - bad enough to kill Gary Gygax.”
I really don't understand why everyone is so surprised by this, isn't this always how D&D has worked? The advantage of light armor is you get to add your dex, the advantage of heavy armor is that you don't have to. I guess being able to actually have a higher AC with light armor might be throwing people off, but that's really how it should be anyway. Dex based characters are good ad dodging, they should be harder to hit, while the guys with better armor should be able to take more hits. Which they can, cause they have more HP.



Yes, exactly this.  I'm just trying to help disspell the notion that heavy armor is useless.

I really don't understand why everyone is so surprised by this, isn't this always how D&D has worked? The advantage of light armor is you get to add your dex, the advantage of heavy armor is that you don't have to. I guess being able to actually have a higher AC with light armor might be throwing people off, but that's really how it should be anyway. Dex based characters are good ad dodging, they should be harder to hit, while the guys with better armor should be able to take more hits. Which they can, cause they have more HP.



Yes, exactly this.  I'm just trying to help disspell the notion that heavy armor is useless.


So why not make the heavy armor represent the ability of it to shrug off blows by giving it a little bit of DR? It's simple and elegant. Just a tiny bit of dr depending on which heavy armor you're using, and you've got a viable choice for character concept, and it makes heavy armor worth the oddles of cash you're throwing into it.
I know this is in poor taste but...“4th edition - bad enough to kill Gary Gygax.”
Can't we just up heavy armor 1 point?

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I think the big issue here is that there is no way to lose your dex to ac in this edition as of yet.  That is why I usually favored AC over dex bonus.  It harder to lose my ac bonus to defence, than it is to lose my dex bonus to ac.  Heavy armor seems to be completly out preformed thus far.
Can't we just up heavy armor 1 point?

AC bloat is awful. It appears they're trying to avoid the whole AC and BAB arms race thing, so adding more AC could unbalance it the other way.
I know this is in poor taste but...“4th edition - bad enough to kill Gary Gygax.”
Pregens use a standard array of [8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15], before class and racial ability score modifiers.  Fighters get a +1 in Constitution; Humans get a +1 in everything, save one stat which is +2; Dwarves get a +1 in Strength; Halflings get a +1 in Dexterity.  These are important points here: for a point-buy system of ability scores, it looks like it would be pretty hard to start with anything greater than a 15 without having more 10s, and in 5e, where ALL your abilities matter to some extent since they act as your skills, you don't want to dump anything. 

So having dual-primaries is almost out of the question.  Unless you're a human, you're not getting two 16+ for Str and Dex.  And even then, if you don't want to completely dump your other stats, then you need at least a 14 and a 15, and if you want to get rid of that 8, you're likely losing either your 12 or your 13 as well – making it more like 10, 10, 10, 11, 14, 15 – AND be Human.  You'd then have 11, 11, 11, 12, 16, 16, and you wouldn't have any very good skills besides Str or Dex type-skills.  But at least you wouldn't be god-aweful. 

But that's pretty much the only way you could dual-primary.  Otherwise, it's a toss up – do you do more damage with Str, or do you use lighter armor and finesse weapons and thus save money?  You might have a slightly higher AC, which reflects your dodging ability, and you have more money to spend on other things, but you're not as good at killing things.  It's a tough toss-up.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

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