Ray of Frost is completely broken

Next D&D Ray of Frost is broken.

Ranged touch 100ft

Effect: on a hit reduces target's speed to 0.

This is completely busted for a minor level spell. Even with the minor spell power increase, this is the most busted thing, ever. It should be -10 feet speed (2) or something else, it's just too crazy.
Wow...thats...eh....how long does it last?
Next D&D Ray of Frost is broken.

Ranged touch 100ft

Effect: on a hit reduces target's speed to 0.

This is completely busted for a minor level spell. Even with the minor spell power increase, this is the most busted thing, ever. It should be -10 feet speed (2) or something else, it's just too crazy.

Except it doesn't deal damage, targets only one creature, and lasts for a single turn.  It also doesn't prevent the creature from attacking (via ranged weapons, melee attacks, or other special abilities like casting spells).
pssh it isnt broken at all it is simply immobilizing a target til the end of your next turn; no damage. i wouldnt even rate it on par with most at-wills

i would never take that spell unless i just found it lying around somewhere

i guess they cant say immobilized anymore...too 4e
Next D&D Ray of Frost is broken.

Ranged touch 100ft

Effect: on a hit reduces target's speed to 0.

This is completely busted for a minor level spell. Even with the minor spell power increase, this is the most busted thing, ever. It should be -10 feet speed (2) or something else, it's just too crazy.

Except it doesn't deal damage, targets only one creature, and lasts for a single turn.  It also doesn't prevent the creature from attacking (via ranged weapons, melee attacks, or other special abilities like casting spells).



Agreed, I actually think it's a bit weak.  You can give up doing anything else and just lock a single creature down from melee attacks.
spend your action on that turn to *maybe* immobilize one create. trade a turn for a turn, except they can still do everything they could ever do at range. so yeah. 
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spend your action on that turn to *maybe* immobilize one create. trade a turn for a turn, except they can still do everything they could ever do at range. so yeah. 

Seriously, for a cantrip, this is broken. The wizard locks down the BDF with no ranged attacks while the rest of the party kills the rest. This is going to be abused. Position and movement is key to combat.
no, it isnt broken, that immobilization only lasts a round and there is a good chance all of the melee pcs willl just move next to it anyway. it is not terrible in some situations but to call it broken is preposterous
no, it isnt broken, that immobilization only lasts a round and there is a good chance all of the melee pcs willl just move next to it anyway. it is not terrible in some situations but to call it broken is preposterous

I'll remember that when I lock the dragon down from flying off with a cantrip.
I really don't think it will make a dragon fall, since there are spells (hold spell? IIRC) that specifically say that they make flying creatures fall. So I would say if one spell specifically says that flying creatures fall and one doesn't, then the one that doesn't say anything about it shouldn't make the flying creature fall. 

Can anybody else back up this interpretation? I'm unsure about it. 
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Also keep in mind there is no ranged touch, it is simply a ranged attack, so AC is full. Great control spell, with more uses than one might think.
no, it isnt broken, that immobilization only lasts a round and there is a good chance all of the melee pcs willl just move next to it anyway. it is not terrible in some situations but to call it broken is preposterous

I'll remember that when I lock the dragon down from flying off with a cantrip.



yeah well first you should remember dragons will likely have magic resist and a save
or the monster with no ranged attacks, like most animals, vermin, constructs, oozes, undead, etc... or the big dumb brute who simply didn't carry a ranged weapon.

if all you're fighting is "humanoid with sword & bow", it'll lack some punch, but the second you start going up against more monsterous foes, i would gladly give up one turn to keep a potentially powerful hitter locked down so the rest of my party can safely pelt it from afar.
"Ranged Touch" isn't a thing any longer, at least in the playtest. The spell is just a ranged attack, meaning that it's not at all trivial to hit with it, as it was to hit with ranged touch attacks against most targets. It's still potentially really good - it's the only listed cantrip that functions as action denial - but it's not like an auto-lockdown.
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Note that wizards make ranged attacks with a spell with their Int modifier and a +2 bonus (the +2 is to replace the proficiency bonus that a weapon attack would have).


It's not like the wizard needs to use their Dex or anything.  They still have about the same chance to hit with Ray of Frost that a fighter has to hit with a melee attack.



I still don't think Ray of Frost is broken though.  It's very situational to be willing to lock yourself down to lock an enemy down.  Sure it'll be strong when it works.  But you're giving up the ability to have learned a different cantrip in order to have that option at all; and most of the time, it won't be worth doing.
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Ongoing damage zones are going to be pretty absurd with an at-will ranged immobilize.
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Ray of Frost is useful, broken ? I don't think so.
It does strictly nothing against target that can attack from range, except disallow them to retreat if closed
It does nothing against targets locked in melee, they can still attack normally.

It does allow a creature far from melee to be unable to close for one round and in this it is quite useful.
Still you must hit the target and it does no damage.

There seems to be quite the difference between monsters of the 4th edition (in terms of hp and number) in the average combat so no I don't think it is overpowered or "broken" at all. 

Playtest results may differ but I really don't think it will be an issue. 

Playtest results may differ but I really don't think it will be an issue. 



I'm going to run this with a very "power-gamer" type player who used to run 3.X mages years back. If he can't break it I'm going to call it halal.
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no, it isnt broken, that immobilization only lasts a round and there is a good chance all of the melee pcs willl just move next to it anyway. it is not terrible in some situations but to call it broken is preposterous

I'll remember that when I lock the dragon down from flying off with a cantrip.



yeah well first you should remember dragons will likely have magic resist and a save

Not to mention spells of their own. Teleport spells are still in the game, right?
I think part of the reason why some folks are struggling with this is that they are fixated on the old definition of a cantrip which was a spell so minor that it really didn't affect anything and had no mechanical combat effect.  This Ray of Frost obviously does.

The key is to take 5e at its word and see this as a minor spell and not as a harmless cantrip in the vane of Color or Chill.

In reality, it is no different than the Daze cantrip, in fact it is weaker, since Daze stopped a creature entirely (for one round)-- not just movement, but attacks as well.  In Pathfinder, cantrips often have unlimited castings and Daze hasn't broken the game or isn't spammed all the time.

In the early days (pre 3e), some cantrips could actually hinder a foe.  Untie was one such and Hairy was another on certain creatures.

Therefore, I think it is just fine.    As far as power gamers exploiting it?  What don't they exploit?
It's not broken.

But it is cool

Pun intended
RoF is ironically the wizard's best spell. I don't really see it as being broken at low levels, because the rest of the wizard's arsenal is godawful and it's an attack against regular AC, not touch AC. So, yeah it's good that the wizard can trade his turn to end a monsters turn sometimes, but it's not particularly incredible.

The only place I can see this being broken is against high level monsters with low level wizard hirelings, since it doesn't seem that DCs/ACs scale very well. So getting a bunch of apprentices tossing RoFs seems like it'd be overpowered to lock down giants, trolls, etc. From this edition I'm worried we may see the 2E problem of armies of low level casters being deadly foes even to 10th level characters. The old army of 2E clerics spamming hold person was a fear even to the mightiest adventurers.

My main objection though for RoF is the flavor of it. It seems to be one of those nonsensical 4E spells that produces an effect that doesn't seem to make sense from a flavor standpoint. Why can the foe not move at all but can attack fine? What if you cast it on a beholder that floats or a flying creature? How about a creature using magical flight? It feels like some ice spell from Diablo rather than a spell in a tabletop RPG. Having someone get hit with an ice bolt, turn blue for a few seconds and be unable to move is something that should be left for video games.
In reality, it is no different than the Daze cantrip, in fact it is weaker, since Daze stopped a creature entirely (for one round)-- not just movement, but attacks as well.  In Pathfinder, cantrips often have unlimited castings and Daze hasn't broken the game or isn't spammed all the time.

Pathfinder Daze only works on creatures with fewer then 4HD and once per minute, that is why it isn't spammed in Pathfinder.

At-will immobilize seems over powered to me even if it does no damage. I will have to see how it plays out in practice though. If the wizards accuracy is bad enough, it may be workable.

What ever happened to not trying to break the game and just playing the game? Let the players freeze some people, a good DM should let the players enjoy their abilities every once in awhile. However if they abuse them, said abilities can be used on the players as well. Just enjoy the game and house rule anything you and your players do not like about the game so that everyone has a good time playing. That is the point of this game after all still right?
What ever happened to not trying to break the game and just playing the game? Let the players freeze some people, a good DM should let the players enjoy their abilities every once in awhile. However if they abuse them, said abilities can be used on the players as well. Just enjoy the game and house rule anything you and your players do not like about the game so that everyone has a good time playing. That is the point of this game after all still right?



Now that's the spirit!   That's how D&D should be played. 



My main objection though for RoF is the flavor of it. It seems to be one of those nonsensical 4E spells that produces an effect that doesn't seem to make sense from a flavor standpoint. Why can the foe not move at all but can attack fine? What if you cast it on a beholder that floats or a flying creature? How about a creature using magical flight? It feels like some ice spell from Diablo rather than a spell in a tabletop RPG. Having someone get hit with an ice bolt, turn blue for a few seconds and be unable to move is something that should be left for video games.



Now this is something that I think is actually worth asking WotC. What exactly is going on with RoF, because I don't really get it.
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It's a very poorly thought out ability that I'll just wind up house ruling.
It's a very poorly thought out ability that I'll just wind up house ruling.



Since this is play testing. Maybe you could serve the game and community better by explaining what it is poorly thought out and how you would house rule it.

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Ok, first, you still have to hit with it. That's never a gimmie. Might it be a problem with min maxxers being able to hit say 90% of the time? Sure it is. But that's ALWAYS a problem with min maxxers, regardless of what it is.

So, you spend your action to try and immobilize a creature, miss well, that's your turn.

You hit, it's immobilized for a turn. A good DM, will take note of which powers every player takes in his game, and plan accordingly. Because a great encounter should have the same mixture of abilities as the players.

It's not over powered. It's not a gimmie.

Also, i'm sure they will be big bad monsters that might be immune to cold attacks, or to powers X level and lower.

So, yeah again, not over powered.
I think this is a really useful spell, but I wouldn't call it broken. A great balancing factor is the fact that the Total Defense action (or however it's called) now grants a +4 bonus to AC/Dex. So, if you ever force a big bad monster to skip its turn, it will probably go on the defensive, making it much harder to repeat the trick next turn (and incidentally protecting it from your allies piling attacks on it).
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It will only be powerful in certain situations.


Like, 'one uber enemy that has no ranged attacks and has a poor AC and not immune to magic or cold' 


A party of 6 wizards might be able to exploit it.



But really, as a dm, I would just add more enemies if the ray turned out to be overly effective.     
I agree that it isn't broken, but I would like to also agree that ray of frost is illogical for the effect.  Entangle would be much better, but that isn't a wizard spell.  I think daze would be a better spell to make do this, since they are already such similiar spells.
I always imagined Ray of Frost creating ice that traps enemies' lower bodies/feet. Hovering creatures would have a short column of ice reaching up from the floor and holding them in place. Your arms/weapons are still free to attack. After a few seconds, you break the ice - it was just strong enough to hold you there for a bit before you regain your momentum. It doesn't seem that bizarre to have a cold spell immobilize people to me.
I always imagined Ray of Frost creating ice that traps enemies' lower bodies/feet. Hovering creatures would have a short column of ice reaching up from the floor and holding them in place. Your arms/weapons are still free to attack. After a few seconds, you break the ice - it was just strong enough to hold you there for a bit before you regain your momentum. It doesn't seem that bizarre to have a cold spell immobilize people to me.



Exactly what I had imagined and was going to say.
I always imagined Ray of Frost creating ice that traps enemies' lower bodies/feet. Hovering creatures would have a short column of ice reaching up from the floor and holding them in place. Your arms/weapons are still free to attack. After a few seconds, you break the ice - it was just strong enough to hold you there for a bit before you regain your momentum. It doesn't seem that bizarre to have a cold spell immobilize people to me.




I think what they were asking is if it impedes movement why doesn't it impede other things too, like attacking. Your imagry with the legs and ice would explain it, though.
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My DM answer to a wizard hitting a troll with RoF: it picks up the closes thing not nailed down and wipes it at the caster in a fit of rage for +4 to hit and 1d6+4 dmg. Hopefully for the group its not the halfling that is the closed thing.
Hopefully for the group its not the halfling that is the closed thing.



HAHAHAH, thats fantastic!
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My DM answer to a wizard hitting a troll with RoF: it picks up the closes thing not nailed down and wipes it at the caster in a fit of rage for +4 to hit and 1d6+4 dmg. Hopefully for the group its not the halfling that is the closed thing.



ah yes... the lost art of Halfling tossing.    It should be a d10+5 damage.... it's an improvised weapon. 


It may be a lost art to you, but where I play, it has always lived on strong.

Nothing says "surprise!" like a halfling rogue to the face.
I honestly don't see a problem here.  Yes, its a good power, but given the overall wizard abilities at first level I think they need this to be effective.  Its a single target crowd control, its not automatic, it only lasts one turn, and ranged attacks or spell casting still work.  Its far from an "I win" button.  There will be times its very effective, there will also be times when its next to worthless.  Against a melee only brute type monster it can keep them away from the group while they deal with other threats, or in the "boss fight" situation, i.e. low level group killing the lone ogre, you might lock it down and kill it with ranged attack.  I think higher level "solo" style creatures will likely have some chance to resist/save against this.  Usefull, but not a game breaker.  
Next D&D Ray of Frost is broken.

Ranged touch 100ft.


There's no such thing as ranged touch anymore. It's just a normal ranged attack, meaning it has a fairly high failure rate. Seems fine as is.
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