Is there such a thing as an optimized Alchemical based character?

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I was thinking of trying to see what I could do with it, but I don't want to put a bunch of time into it if there really is no way of optimizing it.
You want US to put a bunch of time into it ?
That is clearly not what I said. I asked if there was a current build. if not I will make one.
You can build a character around alchemy, but there's not much benefit. If you want to do it, your chassis will involve the Alchemist theme and the Alchemical Launcher item, to make up for the crappy static attack bonuses and give you one free alchemical item per encounter. You can do the Alchemical Savant theme or not, and there are some random feats to let you recover missed attacks and such. Warforged also get some feats to gain bonuses from alchemical stuff.

However, the result is not really worth putting all the work in.
I saw a build or 2, but i couldn't say when/where (probably when the alchemist theme came out).

It didn't break any records, but it did manage to get a bit above "average".  (not average char-op).



Wouldn't hurt to see a new build.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Ok, I will work on it tonight
How exactly does making items work? Do you spend money or components, or is it basically just a case of saying, "I know the recipe for Alchemist's Fire, and I'm trained in Arcana or Theivery, so I pull a flask of Alchemist's Fire out of thin air"? I know Rituals expend GP worth of components; does creating alchemical items do the same?
How exactly does making items work? Do you spend money or components, or is it basically just a case of saying, "I know the recipe for Alchemist's Fire, and I'm trained in Arcana or Theivery, so I pull a flask of Alchemist's Fire out of thin air"? I know Rituals expend GP worth of components; does creating alchemical items do the same?

You buy the recipe, and then pay for each use (much like rituals).

There's a theme that gives you 1/encounter.

Also, they are cheap-ish.  So you can buy enough for a level's worth (especially if you buy one's a few levels lower) easily enough.  

If their upped their attack bonus by 2, and damage scale by level, it would actually work out well.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

You can do some fun stuff.

Alchemist Theme (1):  At the end of a short rest, you can create one alchemical item of your level or lower at no cost. You must know the formula for the item you create. You can have only one such item prepared at a time. 

Master Mixer (feat): You can make alchemical items of your level + 3 or lower. 

Alchemical Savant PP (11): When you create new alchemical items, you can use existing alchemical items as components. The values of the alchemical items you use as components are subtracted from the component cost of the new alchemical item. Any value in excess of the new item’s component cost is wasted.



So... if you combine all the pieces, you can make an unlimited supply of level+3 alchemical items. Just use your temporary items as components for the permanent ones. This is DM-slap cheeze though.
Actually, Master Mixer doesn't work with the Alchemist theme feature, but the Creation Mastery feat ("... when creating alchemical items, you may treat your level as 2 higher" or whatever it is) does.
Raw alchemist builds aren't going to be fantastic (ie bottle throwers), but you could probably do something pretty reasonable with alchemical ammunition and run on an already viable ranged attacker chasis.

To actually make it work in a char-op sense, you probably need a houseruled expertise. Also, it's probably too costly to be your only attack source AND keep all your attacks up to date. I think re-fluff is your friend on this one.

All that being said, I'm curious what people think the best chasis for this would be?
@tobasco: he is combining them indirectly, so it works. He creates an at level during the short rest from the theme. Then via the pp feature, he creates another at level item using the free one. This new one is permanent. Stockpiles all the items crafted till he can use them to create an item at lvl+3 for free (by breaking down the rest). Clever, if limited by how often the DM let's you take a short rest. But still, clever.
Actually, Master Mixer doesn't work with the Alchemist theme feature, but the Creation Mastery feat ("... when creating alchemical items, you may treat your level as 2 higher" or whatever it is) does.

Technically, we're both right. Master mixer doesn't work directly with alchemist theme, but if you're cheesing out free goods using alchemical savant, then master mixer raises the max level of items you can make.

And... adding creation mastery or mark of creation "increases your level", so it should synergize with master mixer for a total of level+5.  (+7 with both?)

Your attack rolls will be itemlevel+3+bonuses vs. a NAD

At level 16 with alchemical gloves, alchemist theme, and alchemical savant PP, that's +6 in bonuses, so +27-29  vs NADs. Probably going to hit on a 1-5 or so. 

A lot of the effects from alchemical items aren't worth the standard action it takes to use them though... even if you hit. 
I started this thread a while ago, but due to the way alchemical items work, there isn't much you can do with them without specialization. As Antillious mentions, they are expensive to use as your primary attack, and generally speaking are not worth your standard action over your own attack powers.

I think the best way is to simply play a regular mage-like character and describe your attacks as being the result of alchemical item use.

That said, Alchemical Atomizers let you apply the relevant alchemical items to your weapons as a free action, and the combo mentioned above (Alchemist theme and Alchemist Savant paragon path) lets you make the items for free. So you can constantly apply Inferno Oil to your weapon, or Spotted Toadstool Venom.

Clinging Essence lets you take advantage of monster vulnerabilities, within a certain range, and is a minor action to use.

With the Dungeon Survival Handbook, we get Abeloth Slime and Pacification Dust. The former hits for ongoing damage and weakens, and causes the target to be Aberrant for the rest of the encounter (not sure what, if anything, can be done with that). The latter hits area burst 1 within 10 and prevents the target from taking a standard action until the end of its next turn. (If your DM plays with rarity rules then neither of these can be created.)

Antillious, I would say the best build would be:

Race - Warforged.
Theme - Alchemist.
Paragon Path - Alchemist Savant.
Items - Alchemical Atomizer.
I'm just wondering that since ammunition is pretty useful, and using something like the atomizer to coat weapons, does it make more sense to MC artificer for acces to savant and be something else (ie, cunning sneak rogue and launch from hidden, or a twin-striking ranger).

If you could easily use the aboleth slime to turn creatures into aberrant, you might be able to make a moderately aberrant focused char (heavily item dependant though, shardminds have one damage feat).

Alchemist Savant only requires that you be able to make alchemical items. It doesn't require the artificer class.
Avengers arguably get double rolls for the poisons that grant secondary attacks when you hit with an affected weapon. At least, IIRC.
You could probably do something fairly powerful with the feat that lets you use an alchemical item on an OA. Especially on a char that doesn't have any melee abilities. Or as a defender, knowing that you can drop a burst/blast if anyone draws an OA might help make you very sticky (and possibly dangerous to yourself/others). It might not be a good idea to waste your standard action on an alchemical attack, but an OA?

There are some useful ones besides damage, it's pretty easy to drop blind followed by -2 attack penalty (save ends). Or an immobilize, or dazed and slowed. You can even heal an ally, or give them a saving throw instead. LOTS of options.
About how many levels down do you have to go before the price becomes truly negligible? Like, you can use 5 per round and not notice.
Theoretically, I like the Vestige Pact Warlock as a chassis for an Alchemical based character.

One is Prime Shot, along with its series of feats to let it to apply to Ranged/Burst/Melee attacks, get boosted to +2 bonus to attacks and +5 to damage.  Vestige Warlock goes a step further by boosting that bonus to +3 on Pact Boons, and ensuring Prime Shot Bonus against a target with Eyes of Vestige which REALLY helps on poisons/oils applied to weapons that lack the Range/Burst/Melee words in their powers.

Next is being Human (Not Warforged) with the Warlock's Curse.  Reckless Curse feats lets you snag another +1 bonus to attack rolls.  Go further, and one can grab Sorcerer-king Pact in Paragon with Twofold Pact and Mindbite Scorn to stack on another d6 of damage.  Extra feat is nice to boost the d6s to d8s.  Getting CA is easier, with Shadow Warlock Armor.  Then you hit Epic, for another feat for +Int to Curse, and Radiant One PP for +Int again to damage with CA, and Hands of Hadar for another 2d6.

Being arcane means easy access to Arcane Familiar for Disembodied Hands to keep the Minor Actions free for Curse.

Item-wise, Alchemy Gloves is a nice starter for the +2 item bonus but will get dropped in Epic and sticking with the +1 item bonus from Alchemical Launcher.

Paragon Path is that Alchemist Savat, for another +2 to attack rolls at 16.

I forget the rest, but having +5 to attack rolls (And CA) for Alchemical items is a really nice boost for accuracy in Heroic Tier.  Combine that with the Paragon feat for -2 to next Saving Throw on Bloodied creatures being hit under your curse, and it makes poisons look a touch more attractive.
Looking at it further, your most optimal alchemist build is probably an ongoing damage focused one. Either with lots of save penalties so the tics keep coming (probably not worth is as alchemical ongoing is pretty weak), or a "happy endings" one. A spellscarred tiefling wizard with Icy clutch, hellfire master, and pernicious onslaught could do well by dropping 3 area burst ongoing damage powers in a per-encounter nova round, each with a different stacking damage type. Plus being able to drop another damage/debuff AOE on an OA. And it still leaves you open to be a functional wizard without focusing on any ongoing damage dailies.

Icy clutch alone blows the warforged damage feat out of the water.
I am still working on this. I am coming from never having used an alchemical item or seen one used. I am trying to figure out how they can compliment other classes. I am looking into Artificer/executioner, but that is yet another thing I have never experienced .. I mean who uses an artificer really? The executioner is for the poison options, but again I am nto even sure if I can make those work together. SO far I like the support of items for the warforged class and the feats.
uhm, one of the most well known leaders is |Artificer, so I have no idea what you're talking about
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
At first I thought, since effects like Inferno Oil don't list any info like keywords and whatnot, that it did not have any. But now I realize that they all say "secondary attack." Per RC 96, that means it's the same attack type (melee, ranged, etc.) and even shares the same keywords.

That opens up a lot more optimization potential.
Honestly?  There's such a thing as an optimised Alchemist.  I don't think there's such a thing as an optimal Alchemist (i.e. you can make the best possible use of Alchemical items, but that use will probably not be better than the equivalent normal character).  Refluff your Wizard ;)
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To me using a warforged makes the most sense if you're going full alchemist. You can build all sorts of things like alchemical launcher and alchemical failsafe into your characer as well as feats like alchemical blood and alchemical affinity.
I suppose an Iron Soul Monk could make decent use of Alchemical Opportunity. With IS FoB the target can't shift, you've got massive AC, and enemies don't really want to bother with hitting you so they're more likely to eat an OA to get away. Throw a Tanglefoot bag at them and they're immobilized then slowed. Meaning your monk just got a whole lot stickier. Also, with monks they usually have to spend a feat to get a usable MBA and you don't get FoB off turn, so there is no huge opportunity/feat cost to grab Alchemical Opportunity instead.
I've found that the major problem is the lack of +to-hit bonuses. The majority of alchemical attacks have a 18-21 to hit at level 16ish (I bult 16 because I am around there in my campaign now). Creatures we are fighting are all over 30 on even NAD. I can't get more than a 3 bonus from feats and items and I can't call anything where you need to roll a 7-10 to hit as being optimized.
I've found that the major problem is the lack of +to-hit bonuses. The majority of alchemical attacks have a 18-21 to hit at level 16ish (I bult 16 because I am around there in my campaign now). Creatures we are fighting are all over 30 on even NAD. I can't get more than a 3 bonus from feats and items and I can't call anything where you need to roll a 7-10 to hit as being optimized.



Alchemy Gloves give a +2, and the Alchemist theme gives another +2. Devoting your hands slot to it stings a bit, but honestly, a +4 is a pretty big bonus to hit, and is likely to put them pretty close to on par with your other attacks.
I've found that the major problem is the lack of +to-hit bonuses. The majority of alchemical attacks have a 18-21 to hit at level 16ish (I bult 16 because I am around there in my campaign now). Creatures we are fighting are all over 30 on even NAD. I can't get more than a 3 bonus from feats and items and I can't call anything where you need to roll a 7-10 to hit as being optimized.



The Alchemist theme is untyped +2
Alcehmist Savant PP is untyped +2
Alchemy Gloves, level 6 common item, +2 item bonus.

That's +6 to their basic bonus already. Get CA for another +2. Others have mentioned a few race/class/element specific possibilities as well with reckless curse, prime shot, restless dead, hellfire blood, etc...
Yeah, it's not hard to be as accurate or more accurate with alchemical items.
The real problem is that so many things just don't stack with them. Though I'm not sure I'd call that a problem so much as a warning sign to avoid them
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I have the theme and the PP, but I forgot about it when tallying. Alchemical Launcher gives another, so I guess that is a +7. That is better for sure.
I have the theme and the PP, but I forgot about it when tallying. Alchemical Launcher gives another, so I guess that is a +7. That is better for sure.



Launcher is item bonus and only +1 so alchemy gloves are strictly better for accuracy unless hand slot is already taken.
Ahh yes, you are right they are both item bonuses. I have been spending my time looking through every alchemy "power" card to see if I can find some synergy with another class or whatnot. I haven't really messed with items yet. So I guess +6 is where we are since they are both item bonuses.
I ran a paragon tier alchemy based Artificer, and it turned out to be pretty solid. Highlights;
Race - Warforged. Quite good for an Artificer, and required for one of the items.
Class - Artificer. Thematically, it fit. But also it is a leader with a ton of interrupts and minor action powers, meaning we can spend a lot of time throwing alchemical items.
Theme - Alchemist. It grants a free item every rest, and +2 to-hit.
Paragon Path - Alchemist Savant. The level 16 feature is great for the build. Mostly we like this for the ability to turn one alchemical item into another, which allows the character to create a high level item for free and then turn that into mulitple cheaper items (which is fine because the character is pretty darn accurate).  
Feats - Alchemist Opportunist, which is great with the item that dazes in a burst. Also, Alchemical Affinity, because the CON mod is high, and temps are great. Light Shield proficiency so we can use a certain magic item.
Items - Alchemy Gloves are pretty required. The Alchemical Failsafe is great. The Shield of Fellowship combines with Alchemical Affinity to keep the party covered in temps.

Tactics - Take as many interrupt encounter powers as possible, and use your dailies for minor action buffs. For your standard actions throw your high-accuracy alchemical items. I like Jolt Flask, which with AA + SoF makes for a pretty decent at-will. The build was not the best leader ever, but it handed out a large amount of temps, disabled the enemy, buffed the party pretty well, and did something new and different.
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Just to double up on what Reg said. Light shield allows you to hold something in your hand, which allows you to fulfill the reqs for Alchemist Opportunist.