A return to vancian magic? Please don't :(

I know there is people out there that because of practice, nostalgia, or simply taste, like vancian magic.

However, I still remember when WotC announced before unveiling 4e, that magic will no longer be vancian in the system... the room roared with applause, even the announcers said they were shocked at  the positive response.

So that makes me wonder... why going back? Mechanically wise, it's pretty much agreed it's not a very good system... sure, this is early stages, but if they have incorporated it in the beta it has high chances of ending in the final product... 
It's more of a hybrid, Obsidian. There are at-will spells as well as the prepared ones.
It is not Vancian - it is 4e style magic with Dailies and At-Wills (no encounter powers so far) but reworded for the retro-feel.
Vancian magic is in.  Its been in for a while and its pretty well baked into being a core part of the system.  Daily powers in general have supplanted encounter mechanics, even when taking stuff from 4E.

On the plus side Vancian casting is fairly well balanced this time.  And I say that as someone who much preferes 4E style encounter and at will mechanics to daily mechanics.
I know there is people out there that because of practice, nostalgia, or simply taste, like vancian magic.

However, I still remember when WotC announced before unveiling 4e, that magic will no longer be vancian in the system... the room roared with applause, even the announcers said they were shocked at  the positive response.

So that makes me wonder... why going back? Mechanically wise, it's pretty much agreed it's not a very good system... sure, this is early stages, but if they have incorporated it in the beta it has high chances of ending in the final product... 





The room may have applauded but most online polls i have seen suggest a strong preference for Vancian casting.
I know there is people out there that because of practice, nostalgia, or simply taste, like vancian magic.

However, I still remember when WotC announced before unveiling 4e, that magic will no longer be vancian in the system... the room roared with applause, even the announcers said they were shocked at  the positive response.

So that makes me wonder... why going back? Mechanically wise, it's pretty much agreed it's not a very good system... sure, this is early stages, but if they have incorporated it in the beta it has high chances of ending in the final product... 

Yes, return, please return..I want it back..I'm bored to tear....of the way that everyone period worked in 4e.  I'm bored to tears of not being able to take utility spells, I'm bored of the nicer fun spells not being useable more than once a day.  I'm bored of being locked into other fun but not as powerful spells being locked to only a single use per encounter.

I will gladly give up all at-wills, I will gladly have my wizard, druid, cleric, whatever carry around a crossbow, or a spear...or whatever and attack with it.  I can pretend that is a spell as needed if I feel like it.

But really I want back the utility and versatility of the vancian system.  Give me that back.  Instead of the stuck in stone, each spell is only useable once..period, system that 4e had.


People like powers?  Fine...just don't give it to every single class period..some of us want a (balanced) vancian back.
I know there is people out there that because of practice, nostalgia, or simply taste, like vancian magic.

However, I still remember when WotC announced before unveiling 4e, that magic will no longer be vancian in the system... the room roared with applause, even the announcers said they were shocked at  the positive response.

So that makes me wonder... why going back? Mechanically wise, it's pretty much agreed it's not a very good system... sure, this is early stages, but if they have incorporated it in the beta it has high chances of ending in the final product... 



Because many thinks that the adeu introduced into 4th edition is worse than vancian.

I personaly do not much like vancian, but 4th edition magic was terrible, in my opinion. Reasons for this you can find everywhere, just take a look at the hundreds of threads about spellcasters. 
I know there is people out there that because of practice, nostalgia, or simply taste, like vancian magic.

However, I still remember when WotC announced before unveiling 4e, that magic will no longer be vancian in the system... the room roared with applause, even the announcers said they were shocked at  the positive response.

So that makes me wonder... why going back? Mechanically wise, it's pretty much agreed it's not a very good system... sure, this is early stages, but if they have incorporated it in the beta it has high chances of ending in the final product... 



Because many thinks that the adeu introduced into 4th edition is worse than vancian.

I personaly do not much like vancian, but 4th edition magic was terrible, in my opinion. Reasons for this you can find everywhere, just take a look at the hundreds of threads about spellcasters. 



I'm presently not planning to play next, and the biggest reason is Vancian magic.  I played it years ago, and do not like the idea of stepping back into the stone ages.
Just to throw my voice in behind the masses:

Vancian magic /is/ D&D.  It may be clunky, and we may complain about it, but D&D wizards memorize their spells overnight and forget them once they're cast.

I've spent the last few weeks playing a sorcerer for the first time in a /Pathfinder/ game, and I think the class is a perfectly serviceable option for players interested in the on-demand approach to spellcasting.  I hope something similar makes it into D&D5 as a wizard theme or optional rule. 
Umm, old-school Vancian and 4e powers aren't the only two options.

Why not "spontaneous vancian", like the 3.5 Spirit Shaman had? You prepare a list of spells, and then you cast from that list of spells spontaneously. Is that so hard? 
Vancian Magic?  Please do.

My group has been back to stuff like 3e, E6, OSRIC, etc.

You want us back?  Bring back the mechanics that actually make spellcasters interesting and powerful to play.
Welcome back, fifteen-minute workday. I missed you.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
I know there is people out there that because of practice, nostalgia, or simply taste, like vancian magic.
However, I still remember when WotC announced before unveiling 4e, that magic will no longer be vancian in the system... the room roared with applause, even the announcers said they were shocked at  the positive response.
So that makes me wonder... why going back? Mechanically wise, it's pretty much agreed it's not a very good system... sure, this is early stages, but if they have incorporated it in the beta it has high chances of ending in the final product... 


The room may have applauded but most online polls i have seen suggest a strong preference for Vancian casting.



You may have missed the WotC polls on it.
Vancian magic never left my games! Hooray Pathfinder! ;)

Wizards do have at-will powers, though, and I think the system we've got in 5E seems like a decent compromise between the two styles (though it leans more toward Vancian than it does 4E-style).
powerful to play.



And that right there.. is the fulcrum.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Vancian magic never left my games! Hooray Pathfinder! ;)

Wizards do have at-will powers, though, and I think the system we've got in 5E seems like a decent compromise between the two styles (though it leans more toward Vancian than it does 4E-style).



I'm not a fan of Pathfinder myself, but its continued success is the reason Vancian Magic is coming back in 5e. 

Amusingly, Wizards seems to have missed one critical reason for Pathfinder's success, though.  Their open playtest really was an open playtest.  The PDF was freely available and wasn't limited at all.  People played entire campaigns with the beta book, and it was a huge reason that the system took off the way it did.

Another case of MBAs at Hasbro who probably went to third tier business schools and just don't understand their market.
So...you say they have missed that one critical reason, yet they've just done exactly that.  Didn't that mean they didn't miss it?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Welcome back, fifteen-minute workday. I missed you.



Does your DM let you sleep after every encounter?  I have never let my players sleep after a single encounter.  Generally, in a dungeon, there is no option to sleep.  Also, when rescuing someone or doing some important mission, do you have time to lseep?  If so, that seems more like poor DMing than poor mechanics.
Vancian magic never left my games! Hooray Pathfinder! ;)

Wizards do have at-will powers, though, and I think the system we've got in 5E seems like a decent compromise between the two styles (though it leans more toward Vancian than it does 4E-style).



I'm not a fan of Pathfinder myself, but its continued success is the reason Vancian Magic is coming back in 5e. 

Amusingly, Wizards seems to have missed one critical reason for Pathfinder's success, though.  Their open playtest really was an open playtest.  The PDF was freely available and wasn't limited at all.  People played entire campaigns with the beta book, and it was a huge reason that the system took off the way it did.

Another case of MBAs at Hasbro who probably went to third tier business schools and just don't understand their market.

I'm with you on that. I'm finding the structure of this playtest to be a bit annoying at this point. I'm not interested in playtesting a little 3-level section, as quite frankly the mechanics in here *do* work. I don't need a playtest to know that they do. They're the same basic mechanics as 3E and 4E.

What we need to be playtesting is the classes as a whole and how the system works as you start really *playing* it.

But that should come soon enough. I hope.
So...you say they have missed that one critical reason, yet they've just done exactly that.  Didn't that mean they didn't miss it?



Oh, sorry, the PF Beta was just the *complete* rulebook, with all of the rules you needed to play the game, design your own encounters, fully create characters, etc..  It generated a lot of goodwill for the system and a lot of people who played -- and liked -- the system then immediately ran out and bought the final book to continue playing the campaigns they had started with the beta system.

This playtest, while I appreciate that it's been released for our inspection, is clearly not that.
It's also not finished.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Welcome back, fifteen-minute workday. I missed you.




Not so much.

Look at the elf wizard and tell me where he's going to need to stop for the day to rememorize spells. 

The ray of frost alone will end encounters in no time. 
Welcome back, fifteen-minute workday. I missed you.



Does your DM let you sleep after every encounter?



When characters are fragile like AD&D, it was irational not to sleep .. yes the cleric and mu both contributed..

Run out of band aides.. and bazookas and still running in to a fight.... dumb.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

When I first glanced at this thread I decided I wouldn't comment on it... but after looking more closely on the Wizard and Cleric pregen characters I noticed a slight difference between each of them...

The Cleric loses spell slots after casting and regains them after preparing spell again after a long rest.
 
The Wizard loses spells after he casts them just like in 3.x and regains them when he studies his books after a long rest.

I would really much like to see a variation of what is known as the Vancian system.

A caster can commit an X number of spells per day to memory while also having a Y number of spell slots of each level he can cast. As the day progresses he casts spells and his capacity to cast the different spells he has available decreases as he burns through his reserve of spell slots.
After a long rest a caster could then change the spells he has memorized or keep the ones he already has available.
The number of slots would be dictated by his class and possibly other factors like themes or ability scores. 
Welcome back, fifteen-minute workday. I missed you.



Does your DM let you sleep after every encounter?



When characters are fragile like AD&D, it was irational not to sleep .. yes the cleric and mu both contributed..

Run out of band aides.. and bazookas and still running in to a fight.... dumb.



But was sleeping always an option?  You invade the vampires crypt. After the first encounter, do you sleep in the vampire's lair?  Really?  That is irrational.  If you leave, the defenses will have reconstructed themselves as Vampires are notorious for regenerating and calling in beasts.  Also, that princess he kidnapped?  She died after your 3 days of sleeping.
  Also, that princess he kidnapped?  She died after your 3 days of sleeping.


Well remember this was "just post" wargame.. 101 the princess dies the princess dies, like somebody said earlier the characters arent heros.. just schlubs. And gold pieces were what gained you experience points... not killing villains.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I have always felt that people who described the '15 minute day' or what have you were playing a completely different game. 

In our games, we always brought potions and other items so that we could press on after a tough fight.  Wizards and Clerics didn't blow their loads on the first encounter we ran into, unless it was *really* bad.    If we left after each fight in a dungeon to come back rested up, the dungeon inhabitants would change things while we were gone, come after us while we were resting, reset traps, etc.

Any game in which players simply rest after each encounter is a poorly run game, IMO.
When I first glanced at this thread I decided I wouldn't comment on it... but after looking more closely on the Wizard and Cleric pregen characters I noticed a slight difference between each of them...

The Cleric loses spell slots after casting and regains them after preparing spell again after a long rest.
 
The Wizard loses spells after he casts them just like in 3.x and regains them when he studies his books after a long rest.

I would really much like to see a variation of what is known as the Vancian system.

A caster can commit an X number of spells per day to memory while also having a Y number of spell slots of each level he can cast. As the day progresses he casts spells and his capacity to cast the different spells he has available decreases as he burns through his reserve of spell slots.
After a long rest a caster could then change the spells he has memorized or keep the ones he already has available.
The number of slots would be dictated by his class and possibly other factors like themes or ability scores. 

I concur sir.
I have always felt that people who described the '15 minute day' or what have you were playing a completely different game. 

...snip...

Any game in which players simply rest after each encounter is a poorly run game, IMO.



This.  Right here.

+1  

  Also, that princess he kidnapped?  She died after your 3 days of sleeping.


Well remember this was "just post" wargame.. 101 the princess dies the princess dies, like somebody said earlier the characters arent heros.. just schlubs. And gold pieces were what gained you experience points... not killing villains.



So failing a quest is irrelivant to you?  Why did you get gold, anyway?  Certainly not as a reward, and you didn't kill anything tough rnough to be worht the gold.  This thing you describe doesn't sound like a game or DnD to me.  It sounds like a group of people running around and blasting all their resources each fight before running away since they don't care about completing anything.

I have always felt that people who described the '15 minute day' or what have you were playing a completely different game. 

In our games, we always brought potions and other items so that we could press on after a tough fight.  Wizards and Clerics didn't blow their loads on the first encounter we ran into, unless it was *really* bad.    If we left after each fight in a dungeon to come back rested up, the dungeon inhabitants would change things while we were gone, come after us while we were resting, reset traps, etc.

Any game in which players simply rest after each encounter is a poorly run game, IMO.



This.  This is exactley what I was describing.  The Vancian casting system meant you had to be strategic; you had to know when was best to unload spells and when was best to use your weaker abilities.

So...you say they have missed that one critical reason, yet they've just done exactly that.  Didn't that mean they didn't miss it?



Oh, sorry, the PF Beta was just the *complete* rulebook, with all of the rules you needed to play the game, design your own encounters, fully create characters, etc..  It generated a lot of goodwill for the system and a lot of people who played -- and liked -- the system then immediately ran out and bought the final book to continue playing the campaigns they had started with the beta system.

This playtest, while I appreciate that it's been released for our inspection, is clearly not that.



Sorry to burst your bubble here, but D&D 3.5 was the PF Beta.  The reason that PF was so wildly successful was because of people who played 3.5, loved 3.5 and just plain didn't even like 4.0.  They continued the OGL from 3.5 with PF.  It was everything that Wizards started, and then turned it's back on.

If Next is half as well put together as it should be, then PF will die a quick and painless death.  That would, of course, assume that they bring back the OGL, which is really necessary as PF has only proved through it's success.

Oh, and the main reason for secrecy in this playtest?  It's all PFs fault.  Wizards doesn't want them getting their hands on the next iteration of the system before it is ready.  They don't want to be scooped on their own system, basically.

I must say that I always hated Vancian magic, but that's a playtest and I must see through the rules in an open minded approach.
After studying the elf wizard I must say that "Vancian-Power" hybrid is a good compromise. The character has 3 utility and 3 at-will attacks more powerful than the 4E at-wills (aprox. same damage numbers vs. less than half HP in enemies), and also has 3 daily powers at mid range power between 4E encounters and 4E daily.

Before playing it I bet that this 15 minute workday is not going to happen. I bet that the wizard will pass confidently through a couple of fights and will lose confidence only after a hard fight (like the ones that send you to rest in 4E)
 
Oh, and the main reason for secrecy in this playtest?  It's all PFs fault.  Wizards doesn't want them getting their hands on the next iteration of the system before it is ready.  They don't want to be scooped on their own system, basically.



Umm ... a PF employee could easily create an email, create an account and sign up for the playtest.  Obviously they couldn't use material directly, but they certainly can see what's under the hood.  I don't believe this is why they're doing things this way.  I could be wrong, of course, but there's literally nothing stopping PF folks from getting the playtest info.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Oh, and the main reason for secrecy in this playtest?  It's all PFs fault.  Wizards doesn't want them getting their hands on the next iteration of the system before it is ready.  They don't want to be scooped on their own system, basically.



Umm ... a PF employee could easily create an email, create an account and sign up for the playtest.  Obviously they couldn't use material directly, but they certainly can see what's under the hood.  I don't believe this is why they're doing things this way.  I could be wrong, of course, but there's literally nothing stopping PF folks from getting the playtest info.



Did you actually read the terms and conditions like you were supposed to?  If you did you would realize that anyone from PF who did that could be prosecuted as violating these terms.  Wizards would love for them to do that.
Did you actually read the terms and conditions like you were supposed to?  If you did you would realize that anyone from PF who did that could be prosecuted as violating these terms.  Wizards would love for them to do that.



Yes, because it would be impossible for someone from PF to ignore that.  Totally.  And I'm also positive that Wizards will be tracking every IP address used to download the playtest and then linking it to the machines used and, if those machines are personal, also tracking down where the owner of every machine used works ... just in case.  Srsly. 

There's how things should work, how we think things will work and how they actually do.  They're rarely the same.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Did you actually read the terms and conditions like you were supposed to?  If you did you would realize that anyone from PF who did that could be prosecuted as violating these terms.  Wizards would love for them to do that.



Yes, because it would be impossible for someone from PF to ignore that.  Totally.  And I'm also positive that Wizards will be tracking every IP address used to download the playtest and then linking it to the machines used and, if those machines are personal, also tracking down where the owner of every machine used works ... just in case.  Srsly. 

There's how things should work, how we think things will work and how they actually do.  They're rarely the same.



Of course they're not, but if the document were impossible to uphold, then it wouldn't be there.  Look, I'm not talking about tracking the people who do the downloading, I'm talking about a new version of PF coming out, with Next systems in place, and Wizards sueing the tar out of PF.  That is what I'm talking about.  Sorry, but the terms gives them the right to do so.  And unless Pf can prove that they NEVER downloaded or looked at anything regarding Next, then they are screwed.  It is sometimes that simple.
Did you actually read the terms and conditions like you were supposed to?  If you did you would realize that anyone from PF who did that could be prosecuted as violating these terms.  Wizards would love for them to do that.



Yes, because it would be impossible for someone from PF to ignore that.  Totally.  And I'm also positive that Wizards will be tracking every IP address used to download the playtest and then linking it to the machines used and, if those machines are personal, also tracking down where the owner of every machine used works ... just in case.  Srsly. 

There's how things should work, how we think things will work and how they actually do.  They're rarely the same.



Of course they're not, but if the document were impossible to uphold, then it wouldn't be there.  Look, I'm not talking about tracking the people who do the downloading, I'm talking about a new version of PF coming out, with Next systems in place, and Wizards sueing the tar out of PF.  That is what I'm talking about.  Sorry, but the terms gives them the right to do so.  And unless Pf can prove that they NEVER downloaded or looked at anything regarding Next, then they are screwed.  It is sometimes that simple.



Holy crap this a huge argument over the most non-existant issue in the world. PF isn't going to copy systems, they have their own to worry about. Everything in the OTL has everything to do with simply keeping a firm hand on propriety (thus why the ban of use of 3rd party tools). They know everyone and anyone will see it. They're just covering their ****, as they should.



Of course they're not, but if the document were impossible to uphold, then it wouldn't be there.  Look, I'm not talking about tracking the people who do the downloading, I'm talking about a new version of PF coming out, with Next systems in place, and Wizards sueing the tar out of PF.  That is what I'm talking about.  Sorry, but the terms gives them the right to do so.  And unless Pf can prove that they NEVER downloaded or looked at anything regarding Next, then they are screwed.  It is sometimes that simple.



If WotC can't prove that they looked at it, it's pretty simple for them to prove they haven't.  Obviously PF would be stupid to directly copy any specific system or element but that doesn't mean they won't take a look, make an evaluation and decide whether or not they can incorporate any modified element.  It's silly to think they won't take a look and sillier yet to believe some little user's agreement would actually prevent them from doing it. 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

  Also, that princess he kidnapped?  She died after your 3 days of sleeping.


Well remember this was "just post" wargame.. 101 the princess dies the princess dies, like somebody said earlier the characters arent heros.. just schlubs. And gold pieces were what gained you experience points... not killing villains.



So failing a quest is irrelivant to you?  Why did you get gold, anyway?  Certainly not as a reward, and you didn't kill anything tough rnough to be worht the gold.  This thing you describe doesn't sound like a game or DnD to me.  It sounds like a group of people running around and blasting all their resources each fight before running away since they don't care about completing anything.




No, we cared about getting the gold. It was primarily treasure hunting, and still more from player motivation than from DM coercion into quests...
Vancian Magic is one of the reasons I'm considering coming back to WoTC D&D.  Otherwise I'm staying put in the older editions where to me it feels right.
  Also, that princess he kidnapped?  She died after your 3 days of sleeping.


Well remember this was "just post" wargame.. 101 the princess dies the princess dies, like somebody said earlier the characters arent heros.. just schlubs. And gold pieces were what gained you experience points... not killing villains.



So failing a quest is irrelivant to you?  Why did you get gold, anyway?  Certainly not as a reward, and you didn't kill anything tough rnough to be worht the gold.  This thing you describe doesn't sound like a game or DnD to me.  It sounds like a group of people running around and blasting all their resources each fight before running away since they don't care about completing anything.




No, we cared about getting the gold. It was primarily treasure hunting, and still more from player motivation than from DM coercion into quests...



I'm confused why you played, then.  To me, I love D&D as a roleplaying game.  Lots of good combat simulators exist out there, but they don't have the depth of character that made D&D fun to me.    If you are playing purly to getting gold and treasure hunt, then I can see why you don't like D&D.  This is what I didn't like about 4E; the removal of character customization and roleplaying and it becoming a board game or combat simulator.  I hope 5E returns the roleplaying and customization of the characters.

The Vancian spell system made for an interesting way to do this.  Would I focus on utility for the day, or should I be more balanced for ocombat?  It made playing a wizard uniqu each day.  The style of 4E where it is just this class does this and only this from now until the cows come home was dull.  Vancian casting was strategic and planned and changed day to day.